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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Aug 16, 2018 - 09:16pm PT
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IMHO if there is tat around a tree, then there is your sign, there should be a bolted anchor. It should not detract the nature of the climb however..
Climbers tend to be tree lovers. No? Put two bolts in and save the tree. The tree didn't sign up for this and it can't just walk away. If its a thousand feet off the ground the tourists will never notice.
Having climbed many routes in the desert, several in Zion, the forethought of drilled angles, some in places that would initially accept thin pins, and anchors in certain locations have preserved many climbs and minimized likely damage in the future.
If a tree is being used, and specially harmed put two bolts in and call it good.
My view.
S...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 16, 2018 - 10:02pm PT
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John,
The thread about the added and then chopped bolt on Maxine's Wall p1 was this one from November 2017:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3032066/New-bolt-on-Maxines-Wall-1st-pitch
Your photo shows the fixed pins and a leader in EBs, but it does not show the normal first bolt.
Photos here (from the thread) show it pretty well, and the flake below it where the pin was in the early/mid 70s.
My short summary of the thread is that there was not much support for my idea that a fixed pin which had been missing for about 45 years should be replaced with a bolt.
I was there a few weeks ago, and we tested the fixed pins with a hammer - they are pretty good.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Aug 17, 2018 - 05:42am PT
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Good rule for the valley, preserve the trees, but if you tried that at the gunks you'd probably start a bolt chopping war.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 17, 2018 - 09:41am PT
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I thought it was smart at the Gunks how there's rap routes every so often to prevent cliff top erosion, etc.
I think a lot of controversy comes from people who think there's something inherently wrong with any bolt. Bolts can be very useful. Bolts are bad when they change the nature of a climb, are out of place with the established style of protection of the local area, intrude on the historic nature of a climb with no bolts, etc.
For the most part I think saving a tree by placing two bolts is a good idea, but I really like Shipoopi's post above where he didn't place any bolts on Fairview Dome RR to maintain the no bolts historic nature of the climb, it's a balancing act. I also like the thread on Sons of Yesterday where the FA gave his blessing to save trees by adding rap stations on that route.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Aug 17, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
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One example is the tree at the top of Grant’s crack at swan slab. I work as a guide and spend a lot of time there.
A guide who works for the YMS is asking for bolting ethics in Yosemite from an anonymous online forum?
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Nick
climber
Dazed, Confused
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Aug 17, 2018 - 07:18pm PT
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As most of you are aware the next ledge above the tree is reachable with a 70m rope on the regular route, avoiding even touching the tree.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Aug 19, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
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Ya. Just where I was thinking because climbers come down directly above tree cause they think if they slip they can grab tree and they use it for support when setting up belay. So rap needs to be near enough for them to access from tree. Fortunately tree is growing out of crack in slab so bolts can be placed without hurting tree.
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 24, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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wstmrnclbr,
There is another walk off trail, check it out, it's quite easy, just a little further back and a nice view.
The slab your talking about putting in rap anchors is regularly down climbed and/or walked off.
That tree will far outlast even the best bolt you put in.
The tree has seen massive amounts of use as climbing has become so much more popular, and seems in great condition. The bark is intact, and quite thick. It also only sees six months of climbers every year before it gets six months off for winter break.
Please don't add unnecessary bolts that are not needed. Focus your efforts elsewhere so others don't have to waist there time removing them. There are enough bolts in the meadows.
Your buddy - Eric Gabel
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 25, 2018 - 07:24am PT
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I know someone who hugged it and said it was sad..
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Aug 26, 2018 - 11:01pm PT
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Hey Eric, I respect your opinion greatly, and after some consideration, and in speaking with others, I’ve decided to not only focus my energies elsewhere, but to pull those energies completely out of Tuolumne. I haven’t had anything to do with community service in TM since the last attempt on Stately some four years ago. And your opinion shows that I’d be just wasting more energy. I don’t use any existing pro much anymore in TM anyway(:
Edit: I hear your back in the game a bit and doing well. You may want to check out how fast things have changed. When's the last time you were up at the top of Stately? 3-4-5 years? You might be suprised. And check out the bolts at the top of the Boltway that "others" removed. They're back. People are going to do what they're gonna do regardless of what you and I think.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Aug 27, 2018 - 07:36pm PT
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Because this isn't about community service to the climbing community, it's about service to the environment and the health of that. Eric, I'm well aware of the walk off and well aware of the slab descent. Doesn't matter one iota. The climbers see trees and they think "rap station". Climbers have been doing this for generations. Was just on the phone with a friend. Many DOCUMENTED instances of trees in the Valley, Taquitz/Suicide, Joshua Tree and other areas of trees rapped to death and left to fall to the deck, and then, guess what, bolts show up to take the place of the tree. The smaller tree gets used constantly on Stately (I witnessed this over a three hour period), and had five parties rap directly off the tree (no slings). Rope burns all over and not the same bark thickness as big tree although big tree also has burn marks. Usage of the two trees is much higher than in years past (I've been watching for eighteen of them).
So, repeated rap means: rap = dead tree = bolts after tree dies. I got into climbing because it's a great way to interact with nature. I know that doesn't matter to some climbers but it does to me. And I really appreciate the trees and there's only two of them up there. And they're getting f_ucked over. The NPS has documented cases of allowing bolt placement for the protection of trees and other vegetation if threatened by climbing practices on a case by case basis in Designated Wilderness. There are no routes under the two trees on Stately and they are directly over the traditional decent which every guide book steers climbers towards. Slings get cut and removed or more garbage gets added. The trees should be free of such. And the most practical and long lasting way to protect them is bolts. And does this mean that bolts should be placed any time a sling is found around any piece of vegetation? Of course not but Stately is a high use area and it just so happens that those trees are in the area of the traditional decent (which many are afraid of), making this one of those high use situations. A perfect storm if you will.
Of course, in a perfect world, the masses would be educated (most, if not all of the climbers I talk to up there understand after discussion and most take up my offer to show them how to descend slabs, but I'm not always there) and they'd use the walk off or use the back trail, but hardly anyone does this. There's hope and then there's reality and the reality is people will continue to rap off those trees in numbers. Eric, you are in the small minority of those I've talked to who disagree (acknowledging that the majority is not always right but this is the system we live in and I do agree with the majority in this case). And I've talked to many, including the old hardliners. And the lack of interest and response on this thread shows me that the hard liners here aren't interested. I'm not going off by myself without input from the so called "community". I try.
I don't think it's wasted effort to put in raps and I think it's the right thing to do. I agree with you that there can be too many bolts with some bolts being bad and some being good but that's a different ethical debate. And if you have a good idea of how to keep climbers from using the trees, please let me know because, as stated, I respect your opinion.
Your good friend, Tony
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 10, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
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bolts are in, apparently, as of last weekend...
Linda and I wandered down after a quick lap on South Crack on Friday, walking down the slabs as we have done for decades.
As of Sunday there was a backup of climbers rapping the line.
If you want to keep climbers from using the trees you just have to explain, every time you see someone doing it, that they shouldn't. Then they tell someone, and on and on. It takes the involvement of those who care to pass on the traditions and ethics of a climbing area, and that takes commitment and time.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 12, 2018 - 09:22am PT
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A true ethics of the wilderness would not treat it as a garden where some plants are favored over others, nurtured rather than weeded, and preserving the esthetic of the gardener over the exuberance of nature.
The wilderness, after all, is written down in law as a place where humans do not exert control.
Saving a tree is a paltry excuse to make a convenient exit down the steep slabbed side of Stately Pleasure Dome, a slab that can be walked, or avoided by another less steep route. The bigger issue here is the idea that a quick descent is some kind of climber entitlement.
Saving a forest, or "the forest" has lead to the current western wild fire calamity, perhaps initially to preserve an economic resource, lumber, then as a cherished recreational are, now perhaps as a place to live in a second house located "in the wild." Not wild, but under the control of humans, to provide a place they feel secure in.
Wrapping yourself around a tree is not a very deep demonstration of ecological righteousness.
That's just my opinion, of course.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 12, 2018 - 10:41am PT
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Almost all of the environmental impact of placing most bolts is the aesthetic or alteration of a recreational resource for fellow climbers.
Losing a tree is an environmental impact to the aesthetic of climbers and anyone else who could see that tree as well as a possible ecological impact. Probably not a significant impact but an impact.
I’d put the loss of El Cap Tree as a significant impact in terms of aesthetic, historical, and perhaps a significant ecological impact since it was the only real tree on the face of El cap. I don’t know if climbers killed it, but climbing it and leaving lights on it couldn’t have helped.
As mentioned if there’s a walkoff that should be used instead of bolts IMO but if the walk off is not obvious and people keep using the tree I’d rather see the tree saved and have a couple small holes in the inanimate rock.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 12, 2018 - 11:12am PT
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Saving a tree is a paltry excuse to make a convenient exit down the steep slabbed side of Stately Pleasure Dome, a slab that can be walked, or avoided by another less steep route. The bigger issue here is the idea that a quick descent is some kind of climber entitlement.
If there weren't bolts and all climbers would walk off instead of rapping a tree, that would be fine.
But given that many climbers won't, I don't see fear of bolts as a good reason to damage/kill the tree.
Climbers aren't any more entitled to bolts on the way up than they are to bolts on the way down. So what's the difference?
And as a more general comment: when there is a discussion of some not-too-steep slab walk off, the person arguing against rap bolts is usually assuming the slab is dry. Topping out as it starts to rain can change that considerably.
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