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jakepramsey
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 19, 2018 - 09:10am PT
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I’ve always wondered what the stance is for putting in a bolt anchor, instead of using a tree, manzanita bush or block/knob. Is it a better way of preserving the natural landscape, I don’t really care too much about the safety as I have rapped of tons of junk in the valley. Although, it definitely would be safer. I’m more concerned about saving a tree that sees repeated use and will likely die as a result. Other parks like Joshua Tree are moving this way, they banned the use of vegetation as an anchor in 2013. They would rather someone put in a bolt anchor as an alternative too a bunch of tat around a big block. I guess the argument is once you drill that hole it’s permanent where as sling a tree can be removed without leaving a trace.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 19, 2018 - 09:28am PT
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There are lots of crags where the local land manager has asked (or even required) climbers to place and use bolts and stop damaging cliff-top trees. Heck we even added a bolted anchor at Pinnacles in the '90s when the NPS asked for it to reduce vegetation damage from walking off (at the Tourist Trap).
But Yosemite generally has pretty burly trees, and a long history of chopping bolts. I'd say it would depend on the exact situation.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Apr 19, 2018 - 09:47am PT
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jake, it's a great question. as a paticular example, the tree at the top of the first pitch of the regular route has a lot of wear and tear on it. at one point i put a really nice equalized rope with rap rings there to help the tree out, but of course, that got stolen quite quickly. it really could use a bolted anchor with chains there, but the thing is, there are no bolts on the regular route at all, so you have to respect that tradition, right? that's my two cents...protect the vegetation whenever possible. ss
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jakepramsey
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2018 - 10:33am PT
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One example is the tree at the top of Grant’s crack at swan slab. I work as a guide and spend a lot of time there. I have seen multiple accounts of a party hauling off the tree, while another person jugs, and someone is also toproping Grant’s Crack. That tree is barely one foot in diameter and it sees some seriously heaving abuse. Although a bolt anchor is uncessary as there is plenty of gear above and below the tree, people these days lack the experience to build their own anchor and just blindly follow the guidebook unable to make their own decisions on where to belay. In this case is a bolted anchor warranted?
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 19, 2018 - 01:30pm PT
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The stance is that it is easier to chop a bolt than it is to chop a tree.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 19, 2018 - 02:51pm PT
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If that's the only means of getting down and you're putting in a new route, then by all means bolt anchor by hand drill.
If that's the only means of getting down and you're retrobolting, confer with the FAist. If they are no longer living, then pursue a public dialogue.
Shipoopi's example is a particularly interesting example, but is that used for retreat, and no other gear works their for temp anchor?
Jake, Grant's crack does not need a bolted anchor, IMHO. Peeps should place their own gear. Convenience anchors aren't needed in most cases. But someone more local may have a better sense for this? Guides?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 19, 2018 - 04:27pm PT
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WOOT!
(BTW, that's my concerted effort to not produce a WoT.)
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 19, 2018 - 07:01pm PT
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If there is a gigantic boulder on top and you want to be a purist, take the time to wrap an extra rope around it, and use that as an anchor instead of a bolt or a tree. It is a question of how hard you want to work to leave a minimal footprint.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 19, 2018 - 09:17pm PT
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consensus stated like that simplifies the discussion. It's anything but easy to decide on retro'ing.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 20, 2018 - 06:28am PT
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jake, it's a great question. as a paticular example, the tree at the top of the first pitch of the regular route has a lot of wear and tear on it. at one point i put a really nice equalized rope with rap rings there to help the tree out, but of course, that got stolen quite quickly. it really could use a bolted anchor with chains there, but the thing is, there are no bolts on the regular route at all, so you have to respect that tradition, right? that's my two cents...protect the vegetation whenever possible. ss
Funny that you mention the tree on the Regular Route on Fairview - in 2002 I removed a partially pulled out 1/4" bolt at the ledge for the (very short) next pitch above the tree. There was a small rusty smash link on it and people were bailing off of it (and there was a second 1/4" bolt hole where the other bolt had already pulled!). Super dicey, and it was being used by inexperienced parties who didn't realize just how dicey it was, especially when that crack eats small/medium stoppers (so people could bail for $20 in gear). Patched both holes, you can still see them if you hunt around about 5' right of the crack.
Anyway, I also pulled two other 1/4" bolts higher up that were in similar shape. And while those 3 were clearly added bolts, apparently there were 2 bolts for aid on the FA (that have long since disappeared), I think Roper said they were placed near heavily vegetated cracks that later cleaned out with enough traffic? My guess might be below the big flake on pitch 4 or somewhere like that.
Anyway, back on topic, if that tree were to die - even of natural causes (rockfall, icefall/avalanche, or just simply running out of dirt), would anyone suggest replacing it with bolts? On the other hand, if a couple bolts could keep climbers from killing it then I'd be all for it - or something that wouldn't get stolen - maybe hexes hammered into a crack?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 20, 2018 - 06:44am PT
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If a tree dies because a serial retro-bolter was lashed to it, would the action be justifiable?
Don't forget the gag.
What DMT said.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Apr 20, 2018 - 07:08am PT
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Good discussion.
I work as a guide and spend a lot of time there.
people these days lack the experience to build their own anchor and just blindly follow the guidebook unable to make their own decisions on where to belay
I've always thought this is part of what a "guide" does. Meaning help learn how to build anchors in appropriate ways in the appropriate places
WOOT!
(BTW, that's my concerted effort to not produce a WoT.)
appreciate the effort:)
Anyway, back on topic, if that tree were to die - even of natural causes (rockfall, icefall/avalanche, or just simply running out of dirt), would anyone suggest replacing it with bolts? On the other hand, if a couple bolts could keep climbers from killing it then I'd be all for it - or something that wouldn't get stolen - maybe hexes hammered into a crack?
It's been awhile but can't you get pieces in there anyway?
Oh, and what ding said:-)
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Apr 20, 2018 - 09:38am PT
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hey greg, good to hear your take on this. my newish route, RUMOUR HAS IT, actually shares a belay with the tree. While the rest of the climb has chained anchors every 35 meters or less, i left this anchor as is due to its history. so, rumour has it can be rappelled with a single 70 meter rope, except for this last rappel, unless one wants to just rap a single rope to the deck and leave it...an option if stormed off, you can always get it later. i may install an anchor later on the long first pitch of rumour has it, but people would still have to rappel off the tree to get there. The tree also has a lot of associated sap that is real messy...and can easily get on the ropes. but i still can't justify putting in a chain anchor that somebody might chop int the future. ss
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 20, 2018 - 11:13am PT
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If there is a gigantic boulder on top and you want to be a purist, take the time to wrap an extra rope around it, and use that as an anchor instead of a bolt or a tree. It is a question of how hard you want to work to leave a minimal footprint.
What if there is a giant boulder and a tree and you are willing to use the boulder but enough climbers are content to use the tree that it will eventually kill it. Can you bolt in that case?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 20, 2018 - 02:02pm PT
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SA.
coward
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 16, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
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This might not be the right thread, but I recall a discussion about a bolt replacement on this climb.
Just came across this photo of it from 1980.
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Robb
Social climber
Cat Box
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Aug 16, 2018 - 08:42pm PT
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Deuce...Maxine's?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 16, 2018 - 08:48pm PT
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^^yes, that's it. Wasn't there a bunch of posts about a new bolt on this climb recently? That first pin was never very inspiring... This of course was in the era of only #1, #2, and #3 Friends as the only camming devices.
Just thought this old photo might be interesting. I have no stake in the ethical debate (and actually would be happy to clip some good gear the next time I stumble around Yosemite.)
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Aug 16, 2018 - 09:16pm PT
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IMHO if there is tat around a tree, then there is your sign, there should be a bolted anchor. It should not detract the nature of the climb however..
Climbers tend to be tree lovers. No? Put two bolts in and save the tree. The tree didn't sign up for this and it can't just walk away. If its a thousand feet off the ground the tourists will never notice.
Having climbed many routes in the desert, several in Zion, the forethought of drilled angles, some in places that would initially accept thin pins, and anchors in certain locations have preserved many climbs and minimized likely damage in the future.
If a tree is being used, and specially harmed put two bolts in and call it good.
My view.
S...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 16, 2018 - 10:02pm PT
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John,
The thread about the added and then chopped bolt on Maxine's Wall p1 was this one from November 2017:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3032066/New-bolt-on-Maxines-Wall-1st-pitch
Your photo shows the fixed pins and a leader in EBs, but it does not show the normal first bolt.
Photos here (from the thread) show it pretty well, and the flake below it where the pin was in the early/mid 70s.
My short summary of the thread is that there was not much support for my idea that a fixed pin which had been missing for about 45 years should be replaced with a bolt.
I was there a few weeks ago, and we tested the fixed pins with a hammer - they are pretty good.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Aug 17, 2018 - 05:42am PT
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Good rule for the valley, preserve the trees, but if you tried that at the gunks you'd probably start a bolt chopping war.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 17, 2018 - 09:41am PT
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I thought it was smart at the Gunks how there's rap routes every so often to prevent cliff top erosion, etc.
I think a lot of controversy comes from people who think there's something inherently wrong with any bolt. Bolts can be very useful. Bolts are bad when they change the nature of a climb, are out of place with the established style of protection of the local area, intrude on the historic nature of a climb with no bolts, etc.
For the most part I think saving a tree by placing two bolts is a good idea, but I really like Shipoopi's post above where he didn't place any bolts on Fairview Dome RR to maintain the no bolts historic nature of the climb, it's a balancing act. I also like the thread on Sons of Yesterday where the FA gave his blessing to save trees by adding rap stations on that route.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Aug 17, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
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One example is the tree at the top of Grant’s crack at swan slab. I work as a guide and spend a lot of time there.
A guide who works for the YMS is asking for bolting ethics in Yosemite from an anonymous online forum?
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Nick
climber
Dazed, Confused
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Aug 17, 2018 - 07:18pm PT
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As most of you are aware the next ledge above the tree is reachable with a 70m rope on the regular route, avoiding even touching the tree.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Aug 19, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
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Ya. Just where I was thinking because climbers come down directly above tree cause they think if they slip they can grab tree and they use it for support when setting up belay. So rap needs to be near enough for them to access from tree. Fortunately tree is growing out of crack in slab so bolts can be placed without hurting tree.
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 24, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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wstmrnclbr,
There is another walk off trail, check it out, it's quite easy, just a little further back and a nice view.
The slab your talking about putting in rap anchors is regularly down climbed and/or walked off.
That tree will far outlast even the best bolt you put in.
The tree has seen massive amounts of use as climbing has become so much more popular, and seems in great condition. The bark is intact, and quite thick. It also only sees six months of climbers every year before it gets six months off for winter break.
Please don't add unnecessary bolts that are not needed. Focus your efforts elsewhere so others don't have to waist there time removing them. There are enough bolts in the meadows.
Your buddy - Eric Gabel
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 25, 2018 - 07:24am PT
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I know someone who hugged it and said it was sad..
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Aug 26, 2018 - 11:01pm PT
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Hey Eric, I respect your opinion greatly, and after some consideration, and in speaking with others, I’ve decided to not only focus my energies elsewhere, but to pull those energies completely out of Tuolumne. I haven’t had anything to do with community service in TM since the last attempt on Stately some four years ago. And your opinion shows that I’d be just wasting more energy. I don’t use any existing pro much anymore in TM anyway(:
Edit: I hear your back in the game a bit and doing well. You may want to check out how fast things have changed. When's the last time you were up at the top of Stately? 3-4-5 years? You might be suprised. And check out the bolts at the top of the Boltway that "others" removed. They're back. People are going to do what they're gonna do regardless of what you and I think.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Aug 27, 2018 - 07:36pm PT
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Because this isn't about community service to the climbing community, it's about service to the environment and the health of that. Eric, I'm well aware of the walk off and well aware of the slab descent. Doesn't matter one iota. The climbers see trees and they think "rap station". Climbers have been doing this for generations. Was just on the phone with a friend. Many DOCUMENTED instances of trees in the Valley, Taquitz/Suicide, Joshua Tree and other areas of trees rapped to death and left to fall to the deck, and then, guess what, bolts show up to take the place of the tree. The smaller tree gets used constantly on Stately (I witnessed this over a three hour period), and had five parties rap directly off the tree (no slings). Rope burns all over and not the same bark thickness as big tree although big tree also has burn marks. Usage of the two trees is much higher than in years past (I've been watching for eighteen of them).
So, repeated rap means: rap = dead tree = bolts after tree dies. I got into climbing because it's a great way to interact with nature. I know that doesn't matter to some climbers but it does to me. And I really appreciate the trees and there's only two of them up there. And they're getting f_ucked over. The NPS has documented cases of allowing bolt placement for the protection of trees and other vegetation if threatened by climbing practices on a case by case basis in Designated Wilderness. There are no routes under the two trees on Stately and they are directly over the traditional decent which every guide book steers climbers towards. Slings get cut and removed or more garbage gets added. The trees should be free of such. And the most practical and long lasting way to protect them is bolts. And does this mean that bolts should be placed any time a sling is found around any piece of vegetation? Of course not but Stately is a high use area and it just so happens that those trees are in the area of the traditional decent (which many are afraid of), making this one of those high use situations. A perfect storm if you will.
Of course, in a perfect world, the masses would be educated (most, if not all of the climbers I talk to up there understand after discussion and most take up my offer to show them how to descend slabs, but I'm not always there) and they'd use the walk off or use the back trail, but hardly anyone does this. There's hope and then there's reality and the reality is people will continue to rap off those trees in numbers. Eric, you are in the small minority of those I've talked to who disagree (acknowledging that the majority is not always right but this is the system we live in and I do agree with the majority in this case). And I've talked to many, including the old hardliners. And the lack of interest and response on this thread shows me that the hard liners here aren't interested. I'm not going off by myself without input from the so called "community". I try.
I don't think it's wasted effort to put in raps and I think it's the right thing to do. I agree with you that there can be too many bolts with some bolts being bad and some being good but that's a different ethical debate. And if you have a good idea of how to keep climbers from using the trees, please let me know because, as stated, I respect your opinion.
Your good friend, Tony
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 10, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
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bolts are in, apparently, as of last weekend...
Linda and I wandered down after a quick lap on South Crack on Friday, walking down the slabs as we have done for decades.
As of Sunday there was a backup of climbers rapping the line.
If you want to keep climbers from using the trees you just have to explain, every time you see someone doing it, that they shouldn't. Then they tell someone, and on and on. It takes the involvement of those who care to pass on the traditions and ethics of a climbing area, and that takes commitment and time.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 12, 2018 - 09:22am PT
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A true ethics of the wilderness would not treat it as a garden where some plants are favored over others, nurtured rather than weeded, and preserving the esthetic of the gardener over the exuberance of nature.
The wilderness, after all, is written down in law as a place where humans do not exert control.
Saving a tree is a paltry excuse to make a convenient exit down the steep slabbed side of Stately Pleasure Dome, a slab that can be walked, or avoided by another less steep route. The bigger issue here is the idea that a quick descent is some kind of climber entitlement.
Saving a forest, or "the forest" has lead to the current western wild fire calamity, perhaps initially to preserve an economic resource, lumber, then as a cherished recreational are, now perhaps as a place to live in a second house located "in the wild." Not wild, but under the control of humans, to provide a place they feel secure in.
Wrapping yourself around a tree is not a very deep demonstration of ecological righteousness.
That's just my opinion, of course.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 12, 2018 - 10:41am PT
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Almost all of the environmental impact of placing most bolts is the aesthetic or alteration of a recreational resource for fellow climbers.
Losing a tree is an environmental impact to the aesthetic of climbers and anyone else who could see that tree as well as a possible ecological impact. Probably not a significant impact but an impact.
I’d put the loss of El Cap Tree as a significant impact in terms of aesthetic, historical, and perhaps a significant ecological impact since it was the only real tree on the face of El cap. I don’t know if climbers killed it, but climbing it and leaving lights on it couldn’t have helped.
As mentioned if there’s a walkoff that should be used instead of bolts IMO but if the walk off is not obvious and people keep using the tree I’d rather see the tree saved and have a couple small holes in the inanimate rock.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 12, 2018 - 11:12am PT
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Saving a tree is a paltry excuse to make a convenient exit down the steep slabbed side of Stately Pleasure Dome, a slab that can be walked, or avoided by another less steep route. The bigger issue here is the idea that a quick descent is some kind of climber entitlement.
If there weren't bolts and all climbers would walk off instead of rapping a tree, that would be fine.
But given that many climbers won't, I don't see fear of bolts as a good reason to damage/kill the tree.
Climbers aren't any more entitled to bolts on the way up than they are to bolts on the way down. So what's the difference?
And as a more general comment: when there is a discussion of some not-too-steep slab walk off, the person arguing against rap bolts is usually assuming the slab is dry. Topping out as it starts to rain can change that considerably.
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