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jakepramsey
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 19, 2018 - 09:10am PT
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I’ve always wondered what the stance is for putting in a bolt anchor, instead of using a tree, manzanita bush or block/knob. Is it a better way of preserving the natural landscape, I don’t really care too much about the safety as I have rapped of tons of junk in the valley. Although, it definitely would be safer. I’m more concerned about saving a tree that sees repeated use and will likely die as a result. Other parks like Joshua Tree are moving this way, they banned the use of vegetation as an anchor in 2013. They would rather someone put in a bolt anchor as an alternative too a bunch of tat around a big block. I guess the argument is once you drill that hole it’s permanent where as sling a tree can be removed without leaving a trace.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 19, 2018 - 09:28am PT
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There are lots of crags where the local land manager has asked (or even required) climbers to place and use bolts and stop damaging cliff-top trees. Heck we even added a bolted anchor at Pinnacles in the '90s when the NPS asked for it to reduce vegetation damage from walking off (at the Tourist Trap).
But Yosemite generally has pretty burly trees, and a long history of chopping bolts. I'd say it would depend on the exact situation.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Apr 19, 2018 - 09:47am PT
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jake, it's a great question. as a paticular example, the tree at the top of the first pitch of the regular route has a lot of wear and tear on it. at one point i put a really nice equalized rope with rap rings there to help the tree out, but of course, that got stolen quite quickly. it really could use a bolted anchor with chains there, but the thing is, there are no bolts on the regular route at all, so you have to respect that tradition, right? that's my two cents...protect the vegetation whenever possible. ss
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jakepramsey
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2018 - 10:33am PT
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One example is the tree at the top of Grant’s crack at swan slab. I work as a guide and spend a lot of time there. I have seen multiple accounts of a party hauling off the tree, while another person jugs, and someone is also toproping Grant’s Crack. That tree is barely one foot in diameter and it sees some seriously heaving abuse. Although a bolt anchor is uncessary as there is plenty of gear above and below the tree, people these days lack the experience to build their own anchor and just blindly follow the guidebook unable to make their own decisions on where to belay. In this case is a bolted anchor warranted?
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 19, 2018 - 01:30pm PT
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The stance is that it is easier to chop a bolt than it is to chop a tree.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 19, 2018 - 02:51pm PT
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If that's the only means of getting down and you're putting in a new route, then by all means bolt anchor by hand drill.
If that's the only means of getting down and you're retrobolting, confer with the FAist. If they are no longer living, then pursue a public dialogue.
Shipoopi's example is a particularly interesting example, but is that used for retreat, and no other gear works their for temp anchor?
Jake, Grant's crack does not need a bolted anchor, IMHO. Peeps should place their own gear. Convenience anchors aren't needed in most cases. But someone more local may have a better sense for this? Guides?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 19, 2018 - 04:27pm PT
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WOOT!
(BTW, that's my concerted effort to not produce a WoT.)
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 19, 2018 - 07:01pm PT
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If there is a gigantic boulder on top and you want to be a purist, take the time to wrap an extra rope around it, and use that as an anchor instead of a bolt or a tree. It is a question of how hard you want to work to leave a minimal footprint.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 19, 2018 - 09:17pm PT
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consensus stated like that simplifies the discussion. It's anything but easy to decide on retro'ing.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 20, 2018 - 06:28am PT
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jake, it's a great question. as a paticular example, the tree at the top of the first pitch of the regular route has a lot of wear and tear on it. at one point i put a really nice equalized rope with rap rings there to help the tree out, but of course, that got stolen quite quickly. it really could use a bolted anchor with chains there, but the thing is, there are no bolts on the regular route at all, so you have to respect that tradition, right? that's my two cents...protect the vegetation whenever possible. ss
Funny that you mention the tree on the Regular Route on Fairview - in 2002 I removed a partially pulled out 1/4" bolt at the ledge for the (very short) next pitch above the tree. There was a small rusty smash link on it and people were bailing off of it (and there was a second 1/4" bolt hole where the other bolt had already pulled!). Super dicey, and it was being used by inexperienced parties who didn't realize just how dicey it was, especially when that crack eats small/medium stoppers (so people could bail for $20 in gear). Patched both holes, you can still see them if you hunt around about 5' right of the crack.
Anyway, I also pulled two other 1/4" bolts higher up that were in similar shape. And while those 3 were clearly added bolts, apparently there were 2 bolts for aid on the FA (that have long since disappeared), I think Roper said they were placed near heavily vegetated cracks that later cleaned out with enough traffic? My guess might be below the big flake on pitch 4 or somewhere like that.
Anyway, back on topic, if that tree were to die - even of natural causes (rockfall, icefall/avalanche, or just simply running out of dirt), would anyone suggest replacing it with bolts? On the other hand, if a couple bolts could keep climbers from killing it then I'd be all for it - or something that wouldn't get stolen - maybe hexes hammered into a crack?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 20, 2018 - 06:44am PT
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If a tree dies because a serial retro-bolter was lashed to it, would the action be justifiable?
Don't forget the gag.
What DMT said.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Apr 20, 2018 - 07:08am PT
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Good discussion.
I work as a guide and spend a lot of time there.
people these days lack the experience to build their own anchor and just blindly follow the guidebook unable to make their own decisions on where to belay
I've always thought this is part of what a "guide" does. Meaning help learn how to build anchors in appropriate ways in the appropriate places
WOOT!
(BTW, that's my concerted effort to not produce a WoT.)
appreciate the effort:)
Anyway, back on topic, if that tree were to die - even of natural causes (rockfall, icefall/avalanche, or just simply running out of dirt), would anyone suggest replacing it with bolts? On the other hand, if a couple bolts could keep climbers from killing it then I'd be all for it - or something that wouldn't get stolen - maybe hexes hammered into a crack?
It's been awhile but can't you get pieces in there anyway?
Oh, and what ding said:-)
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Apr 20, 2018 - 09:38am PT
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hey greg, good to hear your take on this. my newish route, RUMOUR HAS IT, actually shares a belay with the tree. While the rest of the climb has chained anchors every 35 meters or less, i left this anchor as is due to its history. so, rumour has it can be rappelled with a single 70 meter rope, except for this last rappel, unless one wants to just rap a single rope to the deck and leave it...an option if stormed off, you can always get it later. i may install an anchor later on the long first pitch of rumour has it, but people would still have to rappel off the tree to get there. The tree also has a lot of associated sap that is real messy...and can easily get on the ropes. but i still can't justify putting in a chain anchor that somebody might chop int the future. ss
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 20, 2018 - 11:13am PT
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If there is a gigantic boulder on top and you want to be a purist, take the time to wrap an extra rope around it, and use that as an anchor instead of a bolt or a tree. It is a question of how hard you want to work to leave a minimal footprint.
What if there is a giant boulder and a tree and you are willing to use the boulder but enough climbers are content to use the tree that it will eventually kill it. Can you bolt in that case?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 20, 2018 - 02:02pm PT
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SA.
coward
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 16, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
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This might not be the right thread, but I recall a discussion about a bolt replacement on this climb.
Just came across this photo of it from 1980.
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Robb
Social climber
Cat Box
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Aug 16, 2018 - 08:42pm PT
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Deuce...Maxine's?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 16, 2018 - 08:48pm PT
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^^yes, that's it. Wasn't there a bunch of posts about a new bolt on this climb recently? That first pin was never very inspiring... This of course was in the era of only #1, #2, and #3 Friends as the only camming devices.
Just thought this old photo might be interesting. I have no stake in the ethical debate (and actually would be happy to clip some good gear the next time I stumble around Yosemite.)
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