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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 20, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
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I hear you Jay.
Anything that diverts folks attention from the great climbing and other recreation opportunities in Utah isn't productive but I sure don't want to see uranium mining get a free pass either which seems to be the big driver here. Trump just seems to be against anything Obama which is short-sighted and shallow in and of itself.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 20, 2018 - 08:54pm PT
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It isn't economical to extract uranium in that area. There are similar ores outside the Monument which aren't being touched despite the price going up. Stop it with the chicken little shit
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jan 20, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
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Jaybro,
Ballo is a troll. Pay him no mind. I spent a week with the wife and kids in Utah last spring: Zion, Bryce, Escalante. We had a blast and met some nice folks. I have mixed feelings about the boycott. It isolates a comminoty that would benefit from interaction with a different community. However, historically many in Utah are there because they wanted to be left alone. On the other hand, if Utahans realize that the choices of their elected officials are harming their pocketbooks then perhaps they'll be motivated to vote for someone who is not an unapologetic frontman for the extraction industry.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 20, 2018 - 09:08pm PT
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Smug troll he is and clearly prefers ostrich sh#t.$$$$
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jan 21, 2018 - 06:58am PT
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Good post Jay. It seems like a boycott by the average traveler/vacationer really only hurts the small businesses caught in the middle. The more recreational land users they get spending money in thier stores, the harder the locals will fight to keep thier livelyhoods... of course it would help if they didn't vote money-grubbing scumbags into office in the first place.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 21, 2018 - 08:08am PT
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watch it there trashman, that sounds awfully seditious.
Don’t worry about me cowboy, one of the first things I learned here was using their prejudices against them.
Adventure rig is a white full-size, with removable ‘Mercian flag and CTR decals that go on when we leave the civilized parts of the state. D&C paperback cover come in handy for covering up them “learnin’ books” too.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 21, 2018 - 08:09am PT
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The NPS Trojan Horse thread got the axe? Oh, man...
I put some effort into that sh#t I posted about Shipley and its congressional flack Stewart.
Not like I'll ever climb there in Utah, but I enjoy the photos and the climbing that come out of Utah.
You are probably close to the truth, Jaybro, and Patagonia is, too.
It is important to understand the tool proposed to elicit change, however; and to that end, here's this link you should read.
https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/why_boycotts_succeed_and_fail
Companies with poor reputations to begin with are less vulnerable to boycotts, because they have less to lose.
Edit: The reason I say you are close to the truth is that Utah already has a miserable reputation environmentally-speaking. The average Joe there simply does not seem to care about the environment. Why is that, I wonder? Is it some Mormon heritage thing like "it's us vs. the rest of the country?"
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 21, 2018 - 08:24am PT
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That and a cultural belief that the planet was given to them to use (and use up) as they see fit. When it doesn’t work anymore the invisible sky fairy gives them their own galaxy to start over.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 09:18am PT
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Uranium mining didn't end because of a ban on mining, nor because the price dropped. Use your common sense.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jan 21, 2018 - 09:26am PT
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Good post Jay. It seems like a boycott by the average traveler/vacationer really only hurts the small businesses caught in the middle. The more recreational land users they get spending money in thier stores, the harder the locals will fight to keep thier livelyhoods... of course it would help if they didn't vote money-grubbing scumbags into office in the first place.
I doubt that the small business owners, especially owners of outdoor recreation businesses voted in the scumbags. I know someone who owns a guiding service in Moab, and I know that he did not vote for trump.
Granted that things won't change in Utah until a more people with moderate politically views moves in. Republicans outnumber democrats 4:1, and there is the mormon influence. In the mean time, maybe if the moderate voters worked on educating the more conservative voters, that might get people to think.
I still have the right not to visit states with conservative leaning policies. I will not visit most of the southern states, and most definitely not texas.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Jan 21, 2018 - 09:32am PT
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Good post Jay. It seems like a boycott by the average traveler/vacationer really only hurts the small businesses caught in the middle. The more recreational land users they get spending money in thier stores, the harder the locals will fight to keep thier livelyhoods... of course it would help if they didn't vote money-grubbing scumbags into office in the first place. this. use your vote and your wallet to effect change. boycotting utah isn't an effective use of your wallet. buying an indian creek book in monticello or grabbing a cup of joes in orangeville or dropping a larger than normal check in the private property camping 'envelopes' at maple are all better uses of your wallet in my opinion.
and of course, don't buy any uranium
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 21, 2018 - 11:07am PT
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Don't buy Uranium.
Giggle. Derrrr....
But 20% of your power comes from nukes.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 21, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
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No need to mine uranium, when it's a byproduct of a sustainable reactor technology that could also solve our energy needs, while providing a replacement for our massively carbon-producing present energy-producing substance (coal).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor
Thorium abundance. A LFTR breeds thorium into uranium-233 fuel. The Earth's crust contains about three to four times as much thorium as U-238 (thorium is about as abundant as lead). It is a byproduct of rare-earth mining, normally discarded as waste. Using LFTRs, there is enough affordable thorium to satisfy the global energy needs for hundreds of thousands of years. Thorium is more common in the earth’s crust than tin, mercury, or silver. A cubic meter of average crust yields the equivalent of about four sugar cubes of thorium, enough to supply the energy needs of one person for more than ten years if completely fissioned. Lemhi Pass on the Montana-Idaho border is estimated to contain 1,800,000 tons of high-grade thorium ore. Five hundred tons could supply all U.S. energy needs for one year. Due to lack of current demand, the U.S. government has returned about 3,200 metric tons of refined thorium nitrate to the crust, burying it in the Nevada desert.
Just great. We're mining something that we really no longer need and that is produced as a byproduct of something we could actually use. But instead of using the substance we could actually use, we simply bury it as through IT was the byproduct, while continually (strip) mining for the substance we really no longer need.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 03:56pm PT
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China is funding a thorium research reactor:
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/542526/china-details-next-gen-nuclear-reactor-program/
If successful it could have implications for the whole Iran brouhaha since Iran has huge supplies of thorium and, so far as I know, you can't weaponize thorium without a breeder reactor (neutron bombardment). It could also be the key in replacing our so-called "green" hydropower energy.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 03:58pm PT
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China may also be doing this in hopes of powering aircraft carriers and submarines since Thorium reactors are physically small. I think they've only invested $3B so not exactly the farm.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jan 21, 2018 - 04:07pm PT
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What is the conceptual distinction between Patagonia boycotting an industry tradeshow (which may have been expensive and unnecessary for a brand that already has wide name recognition in the markets targeted by the tradeshow), versus an individual boycotting recreational activities in Utah?
In my mind, both share the intent to deprive the region of dollars, in the attempt to create a financial incentive for Utah to honor the preservation ideals of outdoor enthusiasts. It's a form of negative discipline. In this way, if it is bad for individuals to boycott Utah, it is bad for Patagonia to boycott the industry event. If anything, it gives less money for Utah to think about for recreation-related revenue, and will push them more toward the extraction and exploitation industries.
On the other hand, one might claim that Patagonia decision was more about creating headlines and drawing attention to the issue, which is valid. This is about the only distinction that I see as valid. I was poised to say this is fairly insignificant, but I guess in the process of writing this I convinced myself that the distinction is important, and offers a path to logical consistency in the Patagonia company action to withdraw from an event versus individual actions to continue patronizing the state for recreational activities.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 21, 2018 - 05:25pm PT
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"Just great. We're mining something that we really no longer need and that is produced as a byproduct of something we could actually use. But instead of using the substance we could actually use, we simply bury it as through IT was the byproduct, while continually (strip) mining for the substance we really no longer need."
Operating uranium mines, such as they are, in the US and Canada are either underground mines (mostly) or in-situ leach (a few).
And while in it is lovely to dream about future technology and possibilities, current needs are being met by yellowcake uranium production.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 21, 2018 - 06:58pm PT
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In my mind, both share the intent to deprive the region of dollars, in the attempt to create a financial incentive for Utah to honor the preservation ideals of outdoor enthusiasts.
This and your argument that Patagonia may have abandoned the OR show anyways are why I think both carrot and stick are appropriate and needed. Places like Boulder(UT), Escalante, and Orangeville have seen the light and are actively courting recreational money. The change was so significant on Orangeville that on our last trip we went out of our way to buy our next week’s groceries, a few extra bags of chalk and a weeks worth of beer there before leaving.
Monticello goes out of their way to avoid any connection with “outsiders” so I’m more than happy push any additional costs their way, while riding the E light through town just so I can spend the money in Moab or Blanding.
TL:DR $ is the only vote anyone really cares about, make it count.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 21, 2018 - 07:23pm PT
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Operating uranium mines, such as they are, in the US and Canada are either underground mines (mostly) or in-situ leach (a few).
Yes, we're in a very narrow window of time in which your statement is true. But that is largely because of uranium prices and demand that have shut down most of our mines. Let demand/prices increase by much, and we'll go right back to what we've done for almost all of our 60-year uranium-mining history.
And while in it is lovely to dream about future technology and possibilities, current needs are being met by yellowcake uranium production.
Our current nuclear power-production is based upon an obsolete technology.
Either we're going to turn the "dream" into a productive reality, or somebody else is going to beat us to it. Our economy and national security are both based upon reliable energy. This is not a place we want to be sucking hind tit. And we must eliminate fossil fuel dependency.
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Inner City
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Jan 22, 2018 - 02:21am PT
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How could I boycott recreating in So. Utah? You only get so much time to enjoy the really special places on earth. I have had so many fine adventures out there and hope to have many more. Extractionists and off-roaders are not pleasant, but the area is so big with so many amazing canyons to see, you can always find a place to enjoy for sure....hopefully this bit of Trumpish lunacy with Bears Ears and Escalante will be adjudicated favorably...but either way, I'm never gonna stop going to so. Utah...it is too beautiful!
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