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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 20, 2018 - 01:52pm PT
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I applaud Patagonia, and other companies re OR, and the subsequent, consequent, decision to move the show out of Utah. That is a responsible statement that hurts the extraction monkeys responsible for the situation being protested, where they feel in the most in their wallet.
However, the people who think they are doing the same thing by boycotting (abandoning) the natural wonder of this state, seemingly in "protest" are doing just the opposite, and aligning themselves with the "scrappers and rappers" and monument Shrinkers.
I don't think that's their intention.
"But we can climb in other states that respect the land more" have you seen the open pit mining in Western Colorado? Ever climb in Kentucky? Did you ever ever climb at the "Carefree Boulder pile" in Arizona, now a golf course? Do you really think this is a problem confined to the state of Utah? This is an ongoing problem pretty much Everywhere there is climbable rock. And we need to address it in every one of those contentious locales.
Giving up on the climbing and outdoor opportunities in Utah especially southern Utah, is throwing a bone to the developers of all stripes. It's showing that you don't care, any more than they do.
In the recent 'NPS Trojan horse' thread, that seems to have been axed, I took 510bforme to task, when he said that he personally would boycott Utah, apparently to help the situation here.
Nothing could be farther from the truth! Such moves are misguided and not thought through.
"why would I spend money in a state that has policies I disagree with?
Jay, I know you live there, but you are not being objective."
Do you know of any states that don't have polices you disagree with? I don't.
I'm being Very objective. Boycotting the state by those who have a stake in being involved in the value and beauty here, is showing the politicos, developers and administration that you don't care, and on the contrary, throw them the keys to theland, because you don't value it.
This does not help in the struggle we have to maintain what we have got here. Quite the contrary. It actually reinforces the extractive cause.
Boycotts can be useful, productive and powerful. But think through who you need to boycott and who you want to "punish."
Giving away the best crack climbing in the world is not an environmental advancement.. Come to Utah, cherish what we share here, and remain politically active!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jan 20, 2018 - 01:55pm PT
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Jay, dude, we all know that UT is culturally flatlined, the climbing is 100% tapped out, and that the Kennecott pit is really just because Utahns use copper.
Bullshit aside, IMO you are spot-on. Boycotting UT is not going to get things done. Boycotting or reasonably increasing tax and royalty on goods extracted from public lands, on the other hand...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2018 - 02:00pm PT
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Yup, the need is to put the breaks and restrictions on the extractors. Not to give up and serve them up what they want without a fight.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jan 20, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
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We all end up paying for the diminished air quality, etc., one way or another. Why not just pay a little extra cash at the pump to subsidize more responsible extraction and exploitation of the resources that we all use?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2018 - 02:09pm PT
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Bingo
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Jan 20, 2018 - 02:10pm PT
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Unfortunately, most people are really really stupid.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jan 20, 2018 - 02:26pm PT
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That's why I spent a week in Capitol Reef in November 2017.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 20, 2018 - 03:25pm PT
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Yeah, I'm not boycotting Utah, but there's a lot to hate, and Utah's government by right wing-nuts, is not at all environmentally friendly
I wouldn't be surprised if they paid a stipend to Rio Tinto Corp. for enhancing SLC's sunsets with their Kennecot smelter, about 20 miles west of the city.
Kennecott's copper mine concentrators, power plant and smelter is the leading facility for toxic releases in the state of Utah, according to a 2017 report by the US Environmental Protection Agency.[15] The company's combined operations are believed to account for 3.5 percent of Salt Lake Valley's air pollution, according to Utah Department of Air Quality statistics.[16] Editorialists continue to criticize Kennecott for the amount of lead the smelter puts into the air each year: 6,250 pounds.[17] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennecott_Utah_Copper
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 20, 2018 - 03:40pm PT
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Giving away the best crack climbing in the world is not an environmental advancement..
You're right, it's not an environmental advancement, it's a message...
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jan 20, 2018 - 03:40pm PT
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I'm pretty sure Jason Chafetz emits more toxic bullshit than Kennecott, Fritz. :-)
blanket boycotting UT hurts the livelihood of small cool companies like Back of Beyond and righteous dudes like Jaybro. kind of a shitty message to send to the folks out there standing for, what they stand on, seems to me
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 20, 2018 - 04:07pm PT
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LOL, this whole exercise in virtue signaling is a riot. I don't even understand why so-called climbers are for the monument, let alone blindly condone the unprecedented 1.35 million acre land grab in the name of environmentalism. Does the federal government have a good track record in this regard? All they seem to do is pave roads and increase traffic in order to make themselves look more important, environment be damned.
I didn't even know about Patagonia's hissy fit until now, and I highly doubt many outside the "outdoorsy" category would even know it was a company, or even a place.
It smells like a partisan bitchfest to me.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jan 20, 2018 - 04:13pm PT
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you don't spend a lot of time in the area do you Ballo?
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 20, 2018 - 04:14pm PT
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"Yup, the need is to put the breaks and restrictions on the extractors."
Mining is probably the most heavily regulated industry in the country.
"Kennecott's copper mine concentrators, power plant and smelter is the leading facility for toxic releases in the state of Utah, according to a 2017 report by the US Environmental Protection Agency.[15] The company's combined operations are believed to account for 3.5 percent of Salt Lake Valley's air pollution, according to Utah Department of Air Quality statistics.[16] Editorialists continue to criticize Kennecott for the amount of lead the smelter puts into the air each year: 6,250 pounds.[17]"
TRI is deeply flawed and the data asked for ever year change.
Considering the amount of material put into the smelter, a car's worth of material coming out in a year, could be worse.
What comes out of your tailpipe? Oh, yeah, its not reported....
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Jan 20, 2018 - 04:46pm PT
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If we outdoors recers avoid Utah, that makes it just that much easier to for the outdoor wreckers to do their work.
But someone like a major trade show avoiding it sends a message. Of course, if the money the trade show brings in is small in comparison to the money that extracting does..... not going to mean much to the people whose job it is is to get money coming into the state.
Any idea what the numbers are? Comparing outdoor rec tourism and related to extracting?
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 20, 2018 - 04:56pm PT
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you don't spend a lot of time in the area do you Ballo?
What's a lot of time? I've spent many falls in the area climbing towers and at Indian Creek.
Maybe you should read some of the more thoughtful comments to Patagonia's grandstanding:
http://disq.us/p/1g2ut56
http://disq.us/p/1fcdwsf
Then we have a lot of these companies throwing money at the DNC, but not necessarily because they're environmentalists, but do enjoy green:
http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/2016/12/20/wreckreation-oligarchs/
There wasn't a problem the Monument solved. Most of the people supporting it are just partisans who are being hysterical. Look at the emotional posts throwing invectives like "climate deniers". What a circus
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 20, 2018 - 04:59pm PT
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Furthermore making it a federal monument just builds another industry on the eroding sea scape that is federal solvency. Look at the craziness that happened during the last shutdown in Utah. Why make these parks federal?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jan 20, 2018 - 05:16pm PT
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so you have spent a "few falls" out here but you're unfamiliar with gayle Ruzicka...
they were not parks to begin with and they were already federal...
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Jan 20, 2018 - 06:03pm PT
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Wait. What? Climbers are boycotting Utah ?? Where the heck are the multitudes going then ?
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 20, 2018 - 06:39pm PT
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Can’t boycott the state I live in, but it sure is fun to watch places like Ferron and Monticello drying up while I blow right through them without spending a dime. Even better if I can run up there costs in the process(always be sure to leave your trash, top off your water, anything to drive up costs while contributing nothing, like they do to the rest of the state).
As for monuments not solving a problem, go talk to the Redd family (scumbag Dr Jim, not the honorable Heidi and her gang) about why he decided to off himself rather talk to the feds. I’m sure he was just enjoying carefree walks in the ruins and he untimely death was purely related to SAD.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jan 20, 2018 - 08:26pm PT
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watch it there trashman, that sounds awfully seditious. at least for Landfill County.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 20, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
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I hear you Jay.
Anything that diverts folks attention from the great climbing and other recreation opportunities in Utah isn't productive but I sure don't want to see uranium mining get a free pass either which seems to be the big driver here. Trump just seems to be against anything Obama which is short-sighted and shallow in and of itself.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 20, 2018 - 08:54pm PT
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It isn't economical to extract uranium in that area. There are similar ores outside the Monument which aren't being touched despite the price going up. Stop it with the chicken little shit
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jan 20, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
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Jaybro,
Ballo is a troll. Pay him no mind. I spent a week with the wife and kids in Utah last spring: Zion, Bryce, Escalante. We had a blast and met some nice folks. I have mixed feelings about the boycott. It isolates a comminoty that would benefit from interaction with a different community. However, historically many in Utah are there because they wanted to be left alone. On the other hand, if Utahans realize that the choices of their elected officials are harming their pocketbooks then perhaps they'll be motivated to vote for someone who is not an unapologetic frontman for the extraction industry.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 20, 2018 - 09:08pm PT
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Smug troll he is and clearly prefers ostrich sh#t.$$$$
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jan 21, 2018 - 06:58am PT
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Good post Jay. It seems like a boycott by the average traveler/vacationer really only hurts the small businesses caught in the middle. The more recreational land users they get spending money in thier stores, the harder the locals will fight to keep thier livelyhoods... of course it would help if they didn't vote money-grubbing scumbags into office in the first place.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 21, 2018 - 08:08am PT
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watch it there trashman, that sounds awfully seditious.
Don’t worry about me cowboy, one of the first things I learned here was using their prejudices against them.
Adventure rig is a white full-size, with removable ‘Mercian flag and CTR decals that go on when we leave the civilized parts of the state. D&C paperback cover come in handy for covering up them “learnin’ books” too.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 21, 2018 - 08:09am PT
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The NPS Trojan Horse thread got the axe? Oh, man...
I put some effort into that sh#t I posted about Shipley and its congressional flack Stewart.
Not like I'll ever climb there in Utah, but I enjoy the photos and the climbing that come out of Utah.
You are probably close to the truth, Jaybro, and Patagonia is, too.
It is important to understand the tool proposed to elicit change, however; and to that end, here's this link you should read.
https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/why_boycotts_succeed_and_fail
Companies with poor reputations to begin with are less vulnerable to boycotts, because they have less to lose.
Edit: The reason I say you are close to the truth is that Utah already has a miserable reputation environmentally-speaking. The average Joe there simply does not seem to care about the environment. Why is that, I wonder? Is it some Mormon heritage thing like "it's us vs. the rest of the country?"
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 21, 2018 - 08:24am PT
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That and a cultural belief that the planet was given to them to use (and use up) as they see fit. When it doesn’t work anymore the invisible sky fairy gives them their own galaxy to start over.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 09:18am PT
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Uranium mining didn't end because of a ban on mining, nor because the price dropped. Use your common sense.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jan 21, 2018 - 09:26am PT
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Good post Jay. It seems like a boycott by the average traveler/vacationer really only hurts the small businesses caught in the middle. The more recreational land users they get spending money in thier stores, the harder the locals will fight to keep thier livelyhoods... of course it would help if they didn't vote money-grubbing scumbags into office in the first place.
I doubt that the small business owners, especially owners of outdoor recreation businesses voted in the scumbags. I know someone who owns a guiding service in Moab, and I know that he did not vote for trump.
Granted that things won't change in Utah until a more people with moderate politically views moves in. Republicans outnumber democrats 4:1, and there is the mormon influence. In the mean time, maybe if the moderate voters worked on educating the more conservative voters, that might get people to think.
I still have the right not to visit states with conservative leaning policies. I will not visit most of the southern states, and most definitely not texas.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Jan 21, 2018 - 09:32am PT
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Good post Jay. It seems like a boycott by the average traveler/vacationer really only hurts the small businesses caught in the middle. The more recreational land users they get spending money in thier stores, the harder the locals will fight to keep thier livelyhoods... of course it would help if they didn't vote money-grubbing scumbags into office in the first place. this. use your vote and your wallet to effect change. boycotting utah isn't an effective use of your wallet. buying an indian creek book in monticello or grabbing a cup of joes in orangeville or dropping a larger than normal check in the private property camping 'envelopes' at maple are all better uses of your wallet in my opinion.
and of course, don't buy any uranium
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 21, 2018 - 11:07am PT
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Don't buy Uranium.
Giggle. Derrrr....
But 20% of your power comes from nukes.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 21, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
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No need to mine uranium, when it's a byproduct of a sustainable reactor technology that could also solve our energy needs, while providing a replacement for our massively carbon-producing present energy-producing substance (coal).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor
Thorium abundance. A LFTR breeds thorium into uranium-233 fuel. The Earth's crust contains about three to four times as much thorium as U-238 (thorium is about as abundant as lead). It is a byproduct of rare-earth mining, normally discarded as waste. Using LFTRs, there is enough affordable thorium to satisfy the global energy needs for hundreds of thousands of years. Thorium is more common in the earth’s crust than tin, mercury, or silver. A cubic meter of average crust yields the equivalent of about four sugar cubes of thorium, enough to supply the energy needs of one person for more than ten years if completely fissioned. Lemhi Pass on the Montana-Idaho border is estimated to contain 1,800,000 tons of high-grade thorium ore. Five hundred tons could supply all U.S. energy needs for one year. Due to lack of current demand, the U.S. government has returned about 3,200 metric tons of refined thorium nitrate to the crust, burying it in the Nevada desert.
Just great. We're mining something that we really no longer need and that is produced as a byproduct of something we could actually use. But instead of using the substance we could actually use, we simply bury it as through IT was the byproduct, while continually (strip) mining for the substance we really no longer need.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 03:56pm PT
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China is funding a thorium research reactor:
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/542526/china-details-next-gen-nuclear-reactor-program/
If successful it could have implications for the whole Iran brouhaha since Iran has huge supplies of thorium and, so far as I know, you can't weaponize thorium without a breeder reactor (neutron bombardment). It could also be the key in replacing our so-called "green" hydropower energy.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 03:58pm PT
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China may also be doing this in hopes of powering aircraft carriers and submarines since Thorium reactors are physically small. I think they've only invested $3B so not exactly the farm.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jan 21, 2018 - 04:07pm PT
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What is the conceptual distinction between Patagonia boycotting an industry tradeshow (which may have been expensive and unnecessary for a brand that already has wide name recognition in the markets targeted by the tradeshow), versus an individual boycotting recreational activities in Utah?
In my mind, both share the intent to deprive the region of dollars, in the attempt to create a financial incentive for Utah to honor the preservation ideals of outdoor enthusiasts. It's a form of negative discipline. In this way, if it is bad for individuals to boycott Utah, it is bad for Patagonia to boycott the industry event. If anything, it gives less money for Utah to think about for recreation-related revenue, and will push them more toward the extraction and exploitation industries.
On the other hand, one might claim that Patagonia decision was more about creating headlines and drawing attention to the issue, which is valid. This is about the only distinction that I see as valid. I was poised to say this is fairly insignificant, but I guess in the process of writing this I convinced myself that the distinction is important, and offers a path to logical consistency in the Patagonia company action to withdraw from an event versus individual actions to continue patronizing the state for recreational activities.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 21, 2018 - 05:25pm PT
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"Just great. We're mining something that we really no longer need and that is produced as a byproduct of something we could actually use. But instead of using the substance we could actually use, we simply bury it as through IT was the byproduct, while continually (strip) mining for the substance we really no longer need."
Operating uranium mines, such as they are, in the US and Canada are either underground mines (mostly) or in-situ leach (a few).
And while in it is lovely to dream about future technology and possibilities, current needs are being met by yellowcake uranium production.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 21, 2018 - 06:58pm PT
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In my mind, both share the intent to deprive the region of dollars, in the attempt to create a financial incentive for Utah to honor the preservation ideals of outdoor enthusiasts.
This and your argument that Patagonia may have abandoned the OR show anyways are why I think both carrot and stick are appropriate and needed. Places like Boulder(UT), Escalante, and Orangeville have seen the light and are actively courting recreational money. The change was so significant on Orangeville that on our last trip we went out of our way to buy our next week’s groceries, a few extra bags of chalk and a weeks worth of beer there before leaving.
Monticello goes out of their way to avoid any connection with “outsiders” so I’m more than happy push any additional costs their way, while riding the E light through town just so I can spend the money in Moab or Blanding.
TL:DR $ is the only vote anyone really cares about, make it count.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 21, 2018 - 07:23pm PT
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Operating uranium mines, such as they are, in the US and Canada are either underground mines (mostly) or in-situ leach (a few).
Yes, we're in a very narrow window of time in which your statement is true. But that is largely because of uranium prices and demand that have shut down most of our mines. Let demand/prices increase by much, and we'll go right back to what we've done for almost all of our 60-year uranium-mining history.
And while in it is lovely to dream about future technology and possibilities, current needs are being met by yellowcake uranium production.
Our current nuclear power-production is based upon an obsolete technology.
Either we're going to turn the "dream" into a productive reality, or somebody else is going to beat us to it. Our economy and national security are both based upon reliable energy. This is not a place we want to be sucking hind tit. And we must eliminate fossil fuel dependency.
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Inner City
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Jan 22, 2018 - 02:21am PT
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How could I boycott recreating in So. Utah? You only get so much time to enjoy the really special places on earth. I have had so many fine adventures out there and hope to have many more. Extractionists and off-roaders are not pleasant, but the area is so big with so many amazing canyons to see, you can always find a place to enjoy for sure....hopefully this bit of Trumpish lunacy with Bears Ears and Escalante will be adjudicated favorably...but either way, I'm never gonna stop going to so. Utah...it is too beautiful!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Jan 22, 2018 - 02:37am PT
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It smells like a partisan bitchfest to me.
Hey Ballo, try calling the public phone line at the White House and then tell me what is a partisan bitchfest. Talk about snowflakes, or just flakes.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 22, 2018 - 06:22am PT
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"Yes, we're in a very narrow window of time in which your statement is true. But that is largely because of uranium prices and demand that have shut down most of our mines. Let demand/prices increase by much, and we'll go right back to what we've done for almost all of our 60-year uranium-mining history."
Also mine underground, you mean?
The US never had many open pit uranium mines, chief. One or two in Wyoming, that's about it.
Mines on the Colorado Plateau were / are all underground. I've read study after study on the miners' cancer rates from that 40's-60's from that area. No surface mines.
I have a list on my work computer of all 13,000+ mines (surface, underground, coal, metal, whatever) in the US if you feel like continuing on this point.
Canada has better uranium deposits than the US - prices would have to triple, at least, to make the crap grades here worth it.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jan 22, 2018 - 07:51am PT
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Monticello goes out of their way to avoid any connection with “outsiders” so I’m more than happy push any additional costs their way,
I dropped almost 1500 bucks in Monticello last month when I broke a timing belt on a trip to town. I had to have a new motor delivered to Monticello. Notwithstanding bent valves on both sides of the motor, I had a good an experience in Monticello. When I picked up my car from the shop the lady in the office asked if I was in the area to climb. We talked about what a great place IC is. She had been out to the creek was familiar with climbing and asked if I had climbed Super Crack. There are some local climbers living in Monticello.
Moose was going to give me a ride to Vegas but I could not fit my bike and rack in his car so I borrowed his car and brought the bike and rack to town to put it in my car. As luck would have it my car was locked in the shop and we were leaving the next morning going north. I went to the RV park office across the main road. The park manager was the classic grizzled local. I explained my predicament and he was fine with letting me lock my bike and rack to the back of a wood pile, refusing any compensation.
If history is any indicator traffic to IC for recreation will increase faster than the local economy. Plenty of climbers use the hotels and B&Bs in Monticello, as well as the grocery store. I spent a good bit of time at the local library and saw a lot of recreation travelers there using the (awful) internet connection. Monticello is benefiting from IC climbers
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 22, 2018 - 08:46am PT
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There are good people in all the towns down there, but until their local government reflects their will, I see no reason to patronize them. Phil Lyman is their local councilman and has pushed back against all forms of conservation bc it does not allow him to ride his atv through the local ruins.
I’m sure many of his constituents find that kind behavior unacceptable, but until they put their votes where their values are I’ll spend my money elsewhere.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 22, 2018 - 09:08am PT
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I have a list on my work computer of all 13,000+ mines (surface, underground, coal, metal, whatever) in the US if you feel like continuing on this point.
Just curious whether or not you think that 20% of USA uranium being from open-pit mines is "only a few."
Let's say that 20% of USA uranium came from just one open-pit mine. Wouldn't that be one granddaddy of a sick, destructive operation? Is "number of mines" really the issue if your state is the one that's "blessed" with such an operation?
And, do you think that underground mining for uranium is a panacea that does effectively no environmental damage?
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jan 22, 2018 - 09:11am PT
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I am not so naive to think that my boycott will do a damn thing, but just like when I protested the Vietnam war in the early 70s. . . . well, it's the principle of the thing.
I am curious about something. How many forum members patronize businesses that discriminate against minorities?
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
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Jan 22, 2018 - 09:56am PT
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Go f*#k yourself, as#@&%e.
DMT
OUCH!! Need some Sanka, Dingus?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 22, 2018 - 09:58am PT
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Mungo like Monticello, ‘cept no beer to be had. Oh, wait, Mungo mistake Monticello for Blanding.
Stone Lizard Lodge in Blanding is Da Bomb! But Germans staying there non capisce kein bier.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Jan 22, 2018 - 10:29am PT
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Monticello goes out of their way to avoid any connection with “outsiders” so I’m more than happy push any additional costs their way, Looking for a guide on a solo trip to IC I ended up at the Canyon Country Discovery Center in Monticello. I bought the guide and got info about where to go mountain biking. Transactions like this are what make areas like Orangeville realize the potential of outdoor recreation as a viable source of income.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 22, 2018 - 10:48am PT
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They’re well aware of the potential, one of the biggest winners in the recreational game is right up 191 from them. This is a conscious choice, Lyman and the city govt are on the record as not wanting to become another Moab, dependent on tourist money.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jan 22, 2018 - 11:01am PT
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one of the biggest winners in the recreational game is right up 191 from them.
yeah that, Grand County is one of the wealthiest, San Juan one of the poorest.
When I saw this sign in Blanding I lost my appetite to eat there.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jan 22, 2018 - 11:05am PT
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Moab is a serious burr under Lyman's saddle. Don't boycott Mowab!
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 22, 2018 - 11:11am PT
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When I saw this sign in Blanding I lost my appetite to eat there.
Can’t blame you for that, but I bet Blanding flips before Monticello.
Josh Ewing is doing great work down there to channel the limited pro monument energy that does exist into a visitors center, while others are working with the native youth to capitalize on visitors(guided tours, history, etc).
Remains to be seen if any of these moves change the overall outlook of the town long term, but it’s a start.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 22, 2018 - 02:25pm PT
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A week ago the city office was "closed for human rights day".
Don't boycott Utah over Bears Ears, boycott Utah for (outside the Salt Lake valley) having rampant intolerance.
A wink and a nod is all it takes to maintain the double standard. Write the governor and tell him your dollars aren't coming to Utah unless they not only embrace diversity, but also stop turning a blind eye to the prejudice and instead shame these people for the mental midgets that they are.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 22, 2018 - 02:40pm PT
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Our current nuclear power-production is based upon making bombs
FTFY
Dept. of war was repurposed at the dept. of energy. They had one aim and it was made perfectly clear when a statutory limit on nuclear accident liability was enacted.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 22, 2018 - 02:42pm PT
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Canada has better uranium deposits than the US - prices would have to triple, at least, to make the crap grades here worth it.
QFT (not that this will stop the chicken littles who just want to make Monuments for...well reasons)
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 22, 2018 - 02:44pm PT
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When I saw this sign in Blanding I lost my appetite to eat there.
They don't agree with my politics! WAAAA!
What's next, not dining with redheads?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 22, 2018 - 02:49pm PT
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Per the mentions of Monticello & Blanding upthread.
I got to know some of the folks at Four Corners School of Outdoor Education through a outdoor company I worked for, helping to support them.
Their Canyon Country Discovery Center is located 1.5 miles north of Monticello, Utah. Their 48-acre campus is a great place to stretch your legs and imagination with hands-on learning stations, programs, and exhibits. Take a walk along the campus trails for views of the high plateau and the Abajos Mountains. Explore their outdoor nature playscape and picnic pavilions, available at no cost for guests to enjoy as they travel through San Juan County Utah’s Canyon Country.
However the few conservationists that work for that fine school are surrounded by a small sea of rightwing LDS folks who mostly don't have much sympathy for the "conservationist agenda." I've shared beers with one school employee who confessed that the locals had not been friendly to him.
Likewise Blanding has the wonderful Edge of The Cedars Museum of Anasazi history and another bunch of rightwing LDS folks who likely don't have much sympathy for the "conservationist agenda."
Bluff, down on the San Juan, has some old hippies, who are a little more "my kind of people." Support Bluff!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jan 22, 2018 - 03:34pm PT
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What's next, not dining with redheads?
well, if I look at the redhead and lose my appetite then no, I will not be dining with her.
thanks for all the local input, going back in March, but not a climbing trip, although my son and I might do some scrambling to see some ruins.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 22, 2018 - 04:18pm PT
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Easily disgusted? You're more likely to be conservative, study claims
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/disgust-breeding-conservatism
I haven't read Mein Kampf, but excerpts demonstrate he had a physical revulsion to people he disagreed with. There has also been a series of monologues published called "Hitler's Table Talk" which also bear this out.
You might want to investigate further why you're losing your appetite just because you disagree with someone politically.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 22, 2018 - 04:18pm PT
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My information is outdated, as well as yours.
Agreed. However, I doubt that we are disagreeing about the fundamentals, which are, as I see them:
1) The USA can no longer responsibly or reliably depend upon fossil fuels for the lion's share of its energy needs.
2) Environmental destruction must be minimized in our quest for responsible/reliable energy-production.
3) Responsible/reliable energy-production is one of the most significant (it could be argued to be the most significant) economic/national-security issue facing us in upcoming decades.
4) We are going to have to get serious about "the dream" in the near term to both meet our growing energy-demands and remain competitive economically, and "the dream" needs to not destroy the environment--if anything correcting existing destruction.
IMO, an important aspect of satisfying the above points is going to involve increased use of nuclear energy, but the old-style uranium reactors will need to give way to new technologies, such as LFTR (which, btw, we have demonstrated can work). Right now, the primary argument I've heard/read against revisiting LFTR technology is that it would be cost-prohibitive to replace our existing nuclear facilities with LFTR facilities. But such "con" analysis arguments have an interesting way of morphing into "pro" arguments with changing economic conditions.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 22, 2018 - 04:42pm PT
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who just want to make Monuments for...well reasons
Yep, silly hippie reasons like cutting down on grave robbing, artifact looting and just plain driving brap braps through all of the above.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 22, 2018 - 05:50pm PT
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Yep, silly hippie reasons like cutting down on grave robbing, artifact looting and just plain driving brap braps through all of the above.
Citation plz
Also, since when is grave robbing legal?
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 22, 2018 - 06:26pm PT
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The honorable James Redd and family
The Lying man
“The BLM closed the canyon trail to motorized use in 2007 after its agents said they found an illegally blazed trail and damage to Native American artifact sites.”
And to your rhetorical question, yep, robbing’s always been illegal, in civilized areas we have law enforcement to ensure people follow the rules. In rural areas we need feds bc the local enforcement tends to look the other way when it’s one of the good old boys doing the looting(see first link)
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donnski
Mountain climber
Nanoose Bay, BC
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Jan 31, 2018 - 06:33pm PT
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Bring in the Monkey Wrench Gang!
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 31, 2018 - 07:21pm PT
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There’s an app for that
But why the focus on Utah? Is conservation only an issue in Utah? Maybe someone would like to report the NPS next time they dump road debris into the woods.
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| Messages 1 - 68 of total 68 in this topic |
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