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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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the albatross wrote:
> I'm 100% with Matt's.
I agree with Matt's last post, where he stated that the best technique depends on the situation.
(Personally I don't simulrap).
> I don't see any difference between trusting someone to belay you properly (on TR or lead).
There is a difference.
The difference is whether your weight is on the rope or not.
1. If you are climbing and being belayed, the situation is still under your control.
2. If you fall while climbing, that is equivalent to simulrappelling, because your risk is no longer under your control - it depends directly on what your partner does.
> I've mostly only simul-rapped off big formations and it sure can be nice to have your partner right there, as in, "man look how incredibly exposed we are now."
Sounds irrelevant (to risk).
> Plus, it can be safer if you happen to have a 80 pound haul bag hanging between your legs.
Sounds less safe to me. I.e. could increase the weight difference between the people.
Also if the person with the haulbag goes second, the partner at the lower anchor can help pull them over to the anchor.
> I'd much rather get hit by a football sized rock from 6 feet then 160 feet.
Usually any rocks get knocked off when the rope is pulled, not while you are going down the rope.
I believe some people do simulrapping because they are with a less experienced partner and want to keep a close watch on them.
(As a result, the less experienced partner might conclude that it is always a preferred method).
My preference with a less experienced partner is for them to connect to their ATC with a "guide sling",
where we both put the rope into our ATCs at the same time,
so I can inspect that before I head down first.
The "guide sling" provides slack between their harness and ATC,
so when I rap it does not push them into the rock at the upper anchor.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Thanks for the detailed breakdown of my post Clint.
I don't think anyone should simul-rap. Or climb rocks. Or rappel. These are dangerous activities which have real potential to seriously hurt or kill you.
For those of you willing to cheat death, there are some real advantages to simul-rapping in some circumstances, including being in close contact with your partner who is essentially belaying you (or lowering you) and less risk of rock fall injury when you both are dragging heavy bags between your legs down loose terrain. I've even held my partners brake rope with one hand while keeping my brake on, in order for him to more easily deal with a particularly nasty rope snag.
My sincere condolences to the friends and family of the persons in this tragic accident report.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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"Like everything in climbing, there is no "right" way to rappel-- you have to balance factors like speed, safety, efficiency, weight, simplicity, etc..."
Yeah there is. You have to live for it to count. I find that if I speed to the climb on the highway then I have time to slow down on the rappel.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I've done a little simulrappingl. I've also been totally smoked by a simulrapping party while rapping conventionally with what I thought was great efficiency. So yeah, simulrapping is quite a bit faster if there are a lot of raps to do.
The only way I can understand the Goat Wall accident is that (1) there were no knots in rope ends and (2) the climber who arrived first somehow let the rope run completely through his device. If something like this happened, it is a pretty serious failure of technique, and I think there is a real question whether serious lapses in appropriate technique should be counted as an intrinsic danger of the practice.
So consider simulrapping in which the climbers either use a Grigri or an extended ATC with autoblock backup, and both strands have stopper knots at their ends. How much more dangerous than a regular rappel is this really?
We have to grant that the anchor loads are going to be at least doubled, but total anchor failure doesn't seem to be much of an issue. Still, if the anchor isn't solid beyond a shadow of a doubt, simulrapping is not a good choice.
Perhaps if a party member is using an ATC type plate, they may have a serious struggle controlling their descent on a single strand if they don't double or even triple the connecting carabiners to add extra friction.
It used to be de rigeur for the first person down to test whether the rappel ropes pull easily, and have the person back at the top rearrange the anchor situation if the ropes don't pull. Obviously, this ability is lost if both party members are simultaneously on rappel, but the reality of mostly established rap stations has meant that testing the pull has faded into obscurity, and anyway other common techniques also make pull testing impossible.
Beyond these three issues, I don't see much in a simulrap that is more dangerous than an ordinary rappel, which is also "safe" until you mess up basically the same standard precautions needed for simulrapping. I think what really makes simulrapping more scary is that your partner pays for your mistakes. (Yes, this is true of belaying too, but in degrees that are fatal only in the worst cases.)
I don't understand why the dictum that no one unweights their rappel until both descending climbers have arrived and are attached to the next anchor is something terribly hard to carry out or so subtle that someone might forget it. And yet accidents happen, and this, together with the failure to knot rope ends, seems to be the way they happen.
One of the things people who guide learn is that an inexperienced person can do anything, no matter how objectively illogical and no matter what instructions have been given. So although I understand the advantages of keeping an eye on an inexperienced rappeller by simulrapping with them, I think this is a really bad idea. Clint describes the "right" way in his post above.
On the plus side, having both climbers together on the rappel has a lot of advantages, mostly already described (minus the joint exercise in exposure appreciation). And anyone who has sat in the dark in bad weather waiting and waiting and waiting for that barely audible "off rappel" call knows how unpleasant it can be to be alone in such conditions.
The advantages are substantial enough to perhaps recommend simulrapping by two experienced climbers as a safer alternative, even when speed is not a critical concern.
Well, that's the logic as I see it. But I still rarely simulrap even with experienced partners, mostly out of what seems to be an irrational fear of a relatively unfamiliar procedure.
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the goat
climber
north central WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2017 - 10:04pm PT
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Something other than simul rapping may have been a factor. According to published reports, the accident occurred at around 9:15 in the morning as the party was descending from it's high point 7 pitches up. Considering the approach is around 30-40 minutes to the base plus 600-700 feet of moderately difficult climbing, one must assume they started quite early with the intent of getting it done asap. Whether climbing as fast as possible to beat the heat, Memorial Day rush home, desire for a multi pitch day, or just trying to set a PR for that route, I'm under the impression that speed and as a result, haste, may have been the determining factor.
I can see simul rapping if a storm or darkness is approaching and personal safety is at stake by taking longer than necessary, but at 9:15 in the morning on a clear, soon to be 85 degree day? Hmmm.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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So simul rap contributed to the accident but super basic failure to put knot in end of rope was the cause of the accident.
Scared the crap out of myself doing that once and so far, only once. I didn't go off the end but it was some scary exposure and two unknotted ends dangling ten feet below me.
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WBraun
climber
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but super basic failure to put knot in end of rope was the cause of the accident.
Was NOT.
Cause started a long time before that of which,
no mortal can see that time ......
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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What Clint said! I would add that if both of you go down at the same time you can't test if the rope pulls.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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First person down ties in then pulls the ropes back and forth a very short distance through the anchors a few times, the partner sees this and knows he/she can leave the stance. Eliminates the need to yell and be heard 165 feet away.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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What rap setup do you use Werner? You mentioned that you didn't like ATC's
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WBraun
climber
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Figure 8 with added carabiner configurations if needed to easily control speed on long rappels, or smaller diameter ropes or with heavy loads.
Petzl stop for single line raps when rigging with heavy loads to be rappeled with up to 300 extra pounds.
ATC's are one trick ponies.
The figure of eight has far more uses and configurations beyond just for rappel use only.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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R.I.P to the peeps that lost there lifes, I have been simul rappin for years, still here.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Rappelling, and I have done thousands, many in adverse conditions, still gives me great pause. So many things can go wrong and the results of a single mistake are disastrous. Rappels are often done when conditions are bad, climbers are tired or everyone can see the barn door looming.
You can dissect different rappelling accidents all you want but, in the end, they almost all come down to human error.
When rappelling keep in mind the mantra......Eternal Vigilance.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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F*#k simulrapping
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Goat..... question.
How did the other folks in the party get down?
Full on SAR call out?
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Barbarian
climber
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The figure of eight has far more uses and configurations beyond just for rappel use only.
Still on my harness on every climb.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Bearbreeder's points are why I said that simulraps either should have an autoblock backup (if the device is an ATC) or use a Grigri. Then if one of the party arrives at the anchor and mindlessly lets go of the rope, it doesn't run through the device. And of course end knots are mandatory.
I agree, though, that going on standard rappel autopilot when simulrapping is likely cause bad things to happen. So if you are going to simulrap, what you want for a partner is someone you know to be attentive, which is not the same thing as "experienced."
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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My climbing partner nearly got the chop on a simul rap at the Pinnacles when her dumbass partner touched down and let go of the rope, too. I woulda jack slapped the stupid sonofabitch.
DMT
This is the issue with simulrapping.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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^^^
Just to add that it's very natural response to let go of/slacken the rope when you touch down on a ledge, as that's what you normally do when rapping one at a time.
When this mistake is made sumulrapping, a lot of rope can move quickly through the system due to the weight/downward momentum of the above climber suddenly offset by the below climber becoming unweighted from the rope and having to hold on to the brake hand a little harder.
Rope moves more quickly through the system the closer you are to ends of the ropes.
Knots. Vigilance.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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RIP to this brother, and condolences to those who love him. Man do I hate to read about things like this.
Re. The Debate:
What Clint said about control is the absolute, f*#k-everything-else, + indisputable bottom line. Who are you willing to give that control to? You'd better be airtight about that choice once you make it.
My climbing partner nearly got the chop on a simul rap at the Pinnacles when her dumbass partner touched down and let go of the rope, too. I woulda jack slapped the stupid sonofabitch.
DMT
Thing is, and this is said with respect and with a good feeling that your partner is alive - she may have needed a wakeup here too, bud. Who is the bigger dumbass, the dumbass, or the person who puts their life in a dumbass's hands? I know your partner is no dumbass, but man we all f up and it's our friends that have to straighten us out.
If you're experienced enough to even consider simul-rapping, ya gotta be experienced enough to judge who it's okay to simul rap with, and who hell no, you'd rather take your chances with the lightning. I can think of exactly one person on this blue + green Earth that I'd be willing to simul rap with.
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