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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 13, 2017 - 07:57am PT
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These lawsuits waste taxpayer money and make the CBD rich.
Complete crock of shite as I posted up earlier from Charity Navigator - they are not getting rich, the money goes into litigation and programs. Go CBD...
April 12, 2017 / Center For Biological Diversity, Grijalva Sue Over Border Wall
April 6, 2017 / Conservation, Fishing Groups Launch Lawsuit to Protect Coho Salmon From Oregon State Forest Logging
April 6, 2017 / California Salmon and Wildlife Win Court Protection From Logging
April 1, 2017 / EPA Approves Dangerous Water Quality Standard for Cadmium
April 10, 2017 / Greens Fight San Bernardino’s Plan for River Water
March 31, 2017 / Lawsuit Challenges FDA's Approval of Genetically Engineered Salmon
February 18, 2016 / Legal Challenge Launched to Restore Santa Clara River Steelhead
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 13, 2017 - 08:03am PT
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The lawsuit was filed to force the gov to come up with a recovery/management plan.
The gov is dragging its ass.
The CBD very well might not like the plan that the Sevice produces, and decide to sue again.
Who knows.
But thanks to the CBD, you might just know a little bit quicker.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 13, 2017 - 08:09am PT
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Climbers for closing crags.
You guys can start your own organization.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 13, 2017 - 08:14am PT
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Go waste some race fuel at a track day while you can.
I'm crusading to close Willow Springs next!
:-)
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 13, 2017 - 08:15am PT
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I haven't raced there in years idiot.
The CBD will keep taking from you clowns until it effects you directly.
Wasted enough time here. have fun
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Apr 13, 2017 - 08:15am PT
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Climbers for closing crags.
You guys can start your own organization.
The more people try to help you out by explaining what's really going on with the Williamson closure, the more belligerent you appear to get. It's baffling, really.
Curt
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2017 - 08:23am PT
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that closure order is interesting on several counts. it's effective from 3-24-17 through 12-31-18, a rather temporary measure. how many of these have we had since 2009? you can bet that no one held any "public information meetings" every 20 months for each order.
quoting from the linked document:
"Public information meetings were conducted extensively between 2009 and 2011 as part of the ongoing efforts to resolve the situation. Meetings were held with representatives of the rock climbing community since the popuilar rock climbing site (Williamson Rock) is within the area."
pay close attention to this doubletalk.
"MEETINGS WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF THE ROCK CLIMBING COMMUNITY"
are NOT
"PUBLIC INFORMATION MEETINGS".
there never were any "public information meetings", well advertised and open to all, at least that i ever heard about, and i was in quite a position to have heard. until shortly before the closure, i was active in the southern california mountaineers association, the major rockclimbing club in the los angeles area. for several years i led monthly SCMA trips into the gorge. no one came to us, again that i know of, and asked us to be involved, and no general meetings were held, again, that i know of. such meetings should have been advertised well in advance to all interested parties. AT THE VERY LEAST A NOTICE OUGHT TO HAVE BEEN PLACED AT THE GORGE ITSELF ADVERTISING POTENTIAL CLOSURE. was this ever done?
the forest service picked the people it wanted to deal with and basically created an organization, friends of williamson rock, to administer its controversial actions to its imaginary climbing community. troy mayr reportedly organized it at THEIR behest. he ran it with a small, hand-selected committee. no one voted for anyone. i attended one of their meetings with ben chapman, who used to co-lead those trips with me, but we were never invited to serve on their board. now troy is a fine fellow and was one of the principal route developers down in the gorge. he authored several sportclimbing guidebooks. but the buzz about him at the time was that he had lost most of his interest in rockclimbing and was getting into "other things". judging from the inactivity of the FoWR, i'd say the buzz was right on.
the bottom line here is that the science involved is damned crummy science. scientists seem to have killed more frogs trying to breed them than are being preserved by shutting down this climbing area. where did they get those experimental frogs anyway? maybe there are a lot more frogs out there than they want us to know about. if more frogs are bred inadvertantly by a creek undercutting a highway than they can come up with in their test tubes, maybe someone ought to be buying up a few creeks and highways. the real issues are: 1) just how diminished IS the MYLF? 2) just how essential is the williamson micro-habitat to its survival? and 3) does climbing in the gorge really have any impact on this frog population?
the climbing area at williamson is dry as a bone beginning late spring even on wet years. the gorge itself, with rock and a waterfall, constitutes a pretty effective barrier, isolating the springs upstream, which are the frogs' main habitat. little rock creek has had some trout fishing, but i doubt there has been much in recent years because of drought. the creek itself goes bone dry, miles and miles of it. i guess i have to explain some of my jokes. climbers aren't really frog voyeurs. i was just kidding about that. in fact, i haven't talked to a single climber who ever even SAW a frog at williamson.
there was one scientist, i believe from UC santa cruz, who addressed this issue credibly. the MYLF diminished because of many factors--trout, a fungus, environmental stress. he sure didn't mention rockclimbers. but to do a little scientific homework for you geniuses, the trout have been in the lakes and creeks for a long time. they didn't suddenly develop gourmet tastes for MYLF tadpoles. the frogs are diminished because of factors which no one can pinpoint. as with the bark beetle which attacks our trees, there are macro factors involved. trees are vulnerable because of drought. they don't have that protective sap flowing through their veins. you aren't going to save the trees by spraying the forests for beetles. you just have to accept the drought and the dying that goes with it. same applies to our frog. but look how well it can do when it gets a chance, as it did at big bear.
from pud's link to a 2012 congressional report on the CBD:
"The Center for Biological Diversity today sent a letter to House Natural Resources Committee Chairman Doc Hastings claiming their organization had only received $553,000 in taxpayer funds resulting from Endangered Species Act (ESA) related attorney fees and court cases. This claim conflicts with data obtained from the Department of Justice (DOJ), which shows over $2 million in taxpayer dollars have been paid out to the Center for Biological Diversity and their attorneys for cases open between 2009-2012 ...
"'American taxpayers have a right to know how much of their money is going to pay attorneys and settlement costs for lawsuit-happy organizations that make a living off of suing the federal government. The numbers from the Justice Department speak for themselves,' said Chairman Hastings. 'One frequent collector of taxpayer dollars spent a week inventing a way to misconstrue and hide data to make it appear as though they haven’t received millions in taxpayer dollars.' ...
"According to this document from the DOJ containing 276 pages of case information, the Center for Biological Diversity was involved in over 50 individual cases, open between 2009 and 2012, where they were the lead plaintiff. The amount of attorney fees and court costs associated with these cases is $2,286,686.91. Of this amount, $138,114.45 was in court costs and $2,148,572.46 was in attorney fees."
this questionable activity seems to have begun in 2009--the date of closure of williamson rock.
(correct that: williamson closure seems to have been in 2006.)
"lawsuit-happy organizations that make a living off of suing the federal government"? looks kinda sketchy there, wouldn't you say?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 13, 2017 - 09:20am PT
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$2,148,572.46
Boy, we're really talking about making a killing when spread across all their inside and outside attorneys.
"lawsuit-happy organizations that make a living off of suing the federal government"?
Or, environmental organizations trying to stop corporations and their government proxies from doing endless harm.
Clueless...and even more clueless that you don't really get it's not about climbing or WR - they're just collateral damage which is being addressed by the AF. Think any of you screamers and wailers are going to be more effective then the AF or move the process along any faster than them?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 13, 2017 - 09:27am PT
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Or, environmental organizations trying to stop corporations and their government proxies from doing endless harm.
Is that what they did at Williamson?
JTM says the frogs are gone. They didn't do so well under CBD stewardship. Seems like a lot of money and hassle for nothing.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 13, 2017 - 11:39am PT
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Thanks for calling me an idiot pud.
I suggest recusing yourself from the Williamson fight-
Someone who's not a total hair triggered dick would be a better voice.
Maybe someone who can write a f ucking petition, too.
Good luck squid.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Apr 13, 2017 - 11:46am PT
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Willy-nilly...
wil·ly-nil·ly
ˌwilēˈnilē/
adverb
1.
whether one likes it or not.
"he would be forced to collaborate willy-nilly"
synonyms: haphazardly, at random, randomly, every which way, here and there, all over the place, in no apparent order
"cars were parked willy-nilly"
2.
without direction or planning; haphazardly.
"politicians expanded spending programs willy-nilly"
synonyms: haphazardly, at random, randomly, every which way, here and there, all over the place, in no apparent order
"cars were parked willy-nilly"
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 13, 2017 - 11:55am PT
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Thanks for calling me an idiot pud.
If it walks like a duck...
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tradryan
Big Wall climber
San Diego
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Apr 13, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
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So much misinformation... don't know where to start. Also don't feel like reading this whole thread.
So there's an anecdote about a culvert and hundreds of MYLFs from the guy on the chair lift, who is presumably not qualified to differentiate between Rana muscosa, anaxyrus boreas, pseudachris sierrae, etc. Simply put: he's probably mistaken.
Then there's a post about how it's all chytrid's fault and people have nothing to do with it. Well people spread chytrid, stock waterways with trout, cause stressors that exacerbate chytrid, alter habitat...
So ya'll are butthurt because you can't belay standing on top of some "supposedly" endangered species. God ya'll are dum..
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tradryan
Big Wall climber
San Diego
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Apr 13, 2017 - 12:40pm PT
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My favorite part though: All these assertions about the BIG MONEY going to wildlife protection. BWAHAHAHAA!! Yea, we're all in this for the money. My college roommates work on wall street. Suckers..
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 13, 2017 - 12:51pm PT
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MYLFs and CBDs
What's not to love!!!!
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 13, 2017 - 12:57pm PT
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People were climbing at Horse Flats, and Pacifico way before Williamson was developed.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 13, 2017 - 02:21pm PT
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10b4me,
Yep people were climbing at Horse Flats and Pacifico, myself included. The road to Pacifico has been closed for years with no plans for an opening anytime soon. Horse flats is great for bouldering and as you probably know has very few options for roped climbing aside from the Pie Slice and the Ant Line wall. The Horse Flats road used to be open year round but is now only seasonally open. Angeles Crest is a great place in the summer to beat the heat but with only Horse Flats and the Tunnel Crag the choices are getting fewer and fewer Pacifico just isn't a viable option unless you want to haul your rope and rack by mountain bike. Williamson isn't the first crag to close due to an endangered species and it won't be the last. What will the next area be? When the next area does close you can bet that the local climbing population will be just as "butt hurt" as we are and fight to try and find a compramise to the issue. If Donner Summit, Lovers Leap, Castle Rock, The Pinnacles etc... the list goes on and on, those are all someones local crag, if they were closed to climbing due to a frog non of the climbers had never seen you can bet the outcry would be 10X what you are hearing from the Willy crowd and I would bet the AF would jump on it a lot harder than they have for Willy. Williamson had been my home crag since 1974 when my dad took me climbing there and I had hoped to take my sone and daughter climbing there but neither of my kids have had the pleasure to climb there yet. Somewhere in the back of your mind you have to understand our frustration. If there is really is a viable frog population that is being harmed by climbers then by all means I get it, even then it would seem logical to keep climbers away from the water but still climb on the 90% of the crag that is not near the water. I just get tired of hearing other climbers who don't live in the area or don't climb anymore to just let it go and give it up. Thats an easy answer for a person who it doesn't impact.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Apr 13, 2017 - 07:17pm PT
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Ignore the critics Tony. Many of us enjoy what you have to say and the way you say it.
When you get going to where you stop capitalizing the first word of sentances and proper nouns I can just picure that vein buldging in your forehead.
Good stuff in this thread. Can we be clever with each other without getting insulting and threatening? We are brothers all around.
Guyman - Joking (not Joking) about Castaic.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 13, 2017 - 09:14pm PT
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...there never were any "public information meetings", well advertised and open to all, at least that i ever heard about,...
I'll dig into where I read about the public information meetings.
As far as being informed on the current project, there is this web site I linked to in another thread:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=43405
the link to the document at the bottom of the page, you'll find a timeline... the next public comment opportunity is in the Fall of 2017. There are also links to provide comments... there was one provided for the first comment period (Jan 2014)...
...the comments is from the USGS, who have been monitoring the MYLF since 2001.
USGS ecologist's report
That letter answers many of Tony's question regarding the status of the MYLF in Little Rock Creek, and in the larger context of SoCal.
You can read as well as I so I'll leave it to you to have a look at that document.
I just get tired of hearing other climbers who don't live in the area or don't climb anymore to just let it go and give it up. Thats an easy answer for a person who it doesn't impact.
some of us climb, some of us used to live in the area, and most of us are concerned, however, this is yet-another-Williamson-Rock thread bemoaning the fate of the local area on a Forum with a much larger scope of interest... if the Williamson Rock folk don't want others to comment, why do they post on one of the most notorious sites for getting comments... from everyone...
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