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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 11, 2017 - 06:45am PT
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i'm just going to post this FWIW since supertopo is probably the best place to reach southern california climbers. i don't intend to pay much attention to the discussion it might generate. i have not been active here for several years because of, to put it plainly, bad manners. if you want to talk to me about this you probably know how to reach me.
if you don't know the business of the mountain yellow-legged frog and the closing of williamson rock in the san gabriels, do a little homework. the rock was closed because of a small population of this "endangered species"--which has historically ranged from oregon down to baja california and was once quite populous in high sierra lakes. no one could give us a very good overall picture as to how threatened this particular species was.
the headwater of little rock creek flows through williamson gorge, and it was determined there was a population of nine (9)--count 'em, 9--MYLFs back when they closed the place several years ago. biologists told us it was an important holdout population. they stopped all climbing in the gorge because, as everyone knows, climbers like to swallow live frogs for lunch. climbers are also notorious voyeurs of frog mating. being naturally shy, the frogs won't mate with climbers staring at them.
the climber organization, duds of williamson rock, has been big-wow active about this. the "latest news" seems to be a letter they wrote in 2010.
oh, and the access fund. they caught me badmouthing them online about their lack of involvement in the williamson issue and i was promptly beseiged by various personalities of their headquarters office. we eventually had a pleasant conference call and i haven't heard from them since. this was more than a year ago.
congressmen operate the same way. if you're hopped up about some issue, they hold your hand, agree with you, wait for you to pipe down, and then forget about you.
so i'm riding the chairlift with a ski instructor who lives in big bear and we get to talking about environmental mismanagement. he gives ski instruction in southern australia during our summertime and he told me how the doo-rights of the australian environmental agency came to the rescue of the pygmy opposum. this is a small marsupial which lives in snow drifts in the winter. the enviro-heroes decided that emplacing access tubes of PVC pipe in the snow drifts would make it easier for the poo widdle possums to come and go. they'd be happier, they'd breed more, and then they wouldn't be endangered any more.
me, i would have served them margaritas. makes some creatures happier and they breed more.
thing is, the predators down under, foxes mostly, picked up the sound of pygmy possums scurrying in the PVC pipes and took to waiting at pipe openings with salivating jaws agape.
i mention the MYLF to this guy and he says, oh yea, they had to fix a culvert of city creek near big bear a few years back. the creek had been undermining hwy. 18, the main thoroughfare for all big bucks coming into town. when they got down under the highway they encountered MOUNTAIN YELLOW-LEGGED FROGS BY THE HUNDREDS.
not sure what they did about it, but i checked with the big bear newspaper and they confirmed that they had covered it and even sent me a link to a column one of their reporters wrote in sympathy to these poor endangered little buggers who managed to BREED BY THE HUNDREDS in conditions far better than what is afforded at williamson rock. shutting down hwy. 18 was not considered.
i was told by a forest service PR type once that, yea, they didn't really think it was a big deal at williamson, but they were being threated with a lawsuit by the center for biological diversity. our poo widdle federal government trembles when the CBD threatens. its meager resources cannot hold a candle to the spectacular affluence of an organization which receives immense contributions from old ladies who can afford to feed stray cats by the hundreds.
the frogs, and climbing at williamson, seem to be forgotten issues. i don't give a damn myself. i've learned to climb elsewhere. but when i was involved with this issue i was also told that "scientists" attempted to breed the MYLF in captivity, with no success. they supposedly killed about 40 frogs in the attempt. this is mitigated by a recent report that frogs at the williamson gorge frog resort have increased from the previous 9 to about 40. nine more frogs, dear resource managers, and we'll be even on the board. croak you very much.
on the way to the san gabriels you may go by angeles national golf club, designed by jack nicklaus, down in tujunga wash next to the 210 freeway. they were attempting to build this golf course about the time we were going through the williamson controversy. the sierra club and other enviro-heroes shrieked about endangered (endemic, really) species in the wash. some kind of spineflower (a weed). a pupfish (a minnow). headlines in the l.a. times declared how the mighty environmentalists halted the development.
for about a year.
government officials held their hands. agreed with them. allowed them to pipe down.
and then the slick lawyers for the golf development got their permit. green fees at ANGC are $188.
funny how the CBD kept its fearsome mouth shut over the weed, the minnow, and the culvert into big bear.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 11, 2017 - 07:52am PT
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The Forest Service, CBD and Access Fund are all meeting up at Williamson today to do a site walk through. I asked the AF to call and include the Sierra Club since they are one of the other big players in the law suit that want to keep climbers out. The AF didn't seem to interested in including the Sierra Club. Maybe because so many climbers are Sierra Club members but have no idea the SC wants to close access to so many areas climbers use. I have a feeling the Sierra Club and the AF are pretty cozy.
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BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
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Apr 11, 2017 - 09:17am PT
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if you guys want some more perspective on this same scenario but different recreating group....look into the milkvetch issues at glamis and other ohv areas.... blm/scientists figured out the weed grew better in areas of ohv use then it did in the areas that they closed due to cbd pressure saying ohv use was endangering it.....but cbd didn't care for "real" facts....
I think they just H8 people having fun.....center for boring d#@&%ebags
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 11, 2017 - 09:57am PT
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I don't think the CBD hates people having fun I think the CBD just hates people.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Apr 11, 2017 - 10:09am PT
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Tony, so good to hear from you. Miss your posts here. Love your literary hand. Not enough old pro writers here.
This post is great! You should should submit it to the letters section of the Sierra Magazine and the local Sierra Club bulliten.
I think Batrock may be incorrect about a SC faction opposing climging at Williamson, but he also could be correct. Anyhow, noise that is favorable to climbers in SC media would be helpful.
You are still SC aren't you?
See you at the Deli.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 11, 2017 - 10:47am PT
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There's no shortage of climbing in SoCal, let the frogs have a little piece and quiet.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 11, 2017 - 10:55am PT
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CBD doesn't give a rat's ass about climbing beyond the fact that it falls under the heading of 'recreational activities'. Again, climbing at WR is unfortunate roadkill under that broad heading and relative the larger regional mandates associated with it. The AF is engaged and the best course for climbers upset about the WR closure is to support and work with the AF.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 11, 2017 - 11:13am PT
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Tony nails it.
As far as "letting the frogs have some peace and quiet" Gary,
I think you are missing the point of why we don't want groups like the CBD, Seirra club or access fund regulating where and when we recreate.
The way to get Williamson open to climbing is community involvement.
History shows this will not happen.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 11, 2017 - 11:22am PT
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It's a roadside stream. Friggin' Harleys and rice rockets go by there all day long.
CBD should helo some USC students into the back-country of the San Gabriels to do their frog counting. I doubt they'll encounter any of the nasty humanoid beasts in there, just copious amounts of poison oak. I suspect they'll find a thriving frog population though.
I spend a lot of time walking through these mountains on trails and fire roads. Looking off the trail, the thought of having to traverse the terrain there is sobering. John Muir had this to say...
In the mountains of San Gabriel, overlooking the lowland vines and fruit groves, Mother Nature is most ruggedly, thornily savage. Not even in the Sierra have I ever made the acquaintance of mountains more rigidly inaccessible. The slopes are exceptionally steep and insecure to the foot of the explorer, however great his strength or skill may be, but thorny chaparral constitutes their chief defense. With the exception of little park and garden spots not visible in comprehensive views, the entire surface is covered with it, from the highest peaks to the plain. It swoops into every hollow and swells over every ridge, gracefully complying with the varied topography, in shaggy, ungovernable exuberance, fairly dwarfing the utmost efforts of human culture out of sight and mind.
But in the very heart of this thorny wilderness, down in the dells, you may find gardens filled with the fairest flowers, that any child would love, and unapproachable linns lined with lilies and ferns, where the ousel builds its mossy hut and sings in chorus with the white falling water. Bears, also, and panthers, wolves, wildcats; wood rats, squirrels, foxes, snakes, and innumerable birds, all find grateful homes here, adding wildness to wildness in glorious profusion and variety.
(A linn could be a pool under a waterfall, an Ousel is a kind of bird.)
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Apr 11, 2017 - 12:36pm PT
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There are bound to be some differences in how land and wildlife are managed, since different areas have different rules.
Williamson Rock is in the Pleasant View Ridge Wilderness since 2009,
so the rules are much different than a golf course or an existing city culvert.
Several populations of the MYLF were discovered in recent years, but let's face it, the frogs face a lot of human impacts, and the national forest can only influence some of those.
Hopefully the long term outcome will be to reopen much of Williamson without unreasonable restrictions, after the contract environmental review is done, and the NEPA process complete.
So the routes right along the stream are likely to be permanently closed,
as well as the short trail. There is little point in debating that, unless you have proof that the frogs should now be taken off the endangered species list.
Some Questions that may actually be still under review:
 Falcon season: entire crag closed until Aug or just the routes within 50-70 yards of the actual nest (typically Freezer Burn/Voices/Eagles Roost/Sick Wall)
After Falcon season: Open access (from the ledge just past the slot next to Mushroom) to those areas restricted during Falcon nesting season?
Which climbs permanently closed? Just Mushroom/London/Stream & others along the stream?
Permit system?
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Apr 11, 2017 - 01:22pm PT
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Yellow legged frogs.... Although I hate to see the natural world getting raped, this Center for Biological diversity makes me sick. Some people crave money and power above all else. They happily waste tax dollars tilting windmills. They love to say "I told you so." While conservation efforts are very important, these hooplas take it WAY too far. For them, the opportunity to lever more money and power is too tempting. Their bleeding hearts reach deep into the pockets of everyone while they drive Mercedes and live in million dollar homes. Their footprint is so huge that eliminating their Salaries would actually help the environment way more than their efforts to "save the environment." The money required to pay all their execs and lawers comes from taxes and contributions that derive from industrial activity. Millionaire environmentalists are NOT SUSTAINABLE! If we simply stopped wasting money on these ridiculous people, the reduced burden on the economy would WAY offset any good they accomplish. The fact is that 99.99999% of all species that ever walked, crawled, swam or slithered on this planet are extinct. Im not saying we should ignore the impact humans have in the world. But the endeaver to "save" all these species is a war against nature itself. A battle that cannot be won. The lifestyles of these "environmentalists" who drive $60,000 priuses is more a damage to nature than their "conservation" efforts will ever prevent. But as long as their efforts yield big money and power, their farce will continue. In reality, when we see that their rich friends always get a pass on the environment for their big money projects, the true purpose of these environmental regulations comes to light: regulate all economic opportunities to zero except for our rich buddies and cronies. Their movement is used to create a monopoly of economic opportunity. You may notice that Nancy Pelosi's husband always gets approval for his big developments, regardless of environmental impact. Same for Angelo Tsakopolous and AKT development. Same for Teichert. Same for Whitcomb and Tandem properties. I watched Whitcomb dump 500 yards of dirt on burrowing owls in Davis where there is a moratorium on development and owls are protected. Unfortunately, what may have started out as a noble cause to protect the environment has become a lever and a hammer to stifle all economic activity and opportunity for the common person in favor of wealthy 1% big business and corrupt lawyers and politicians. If the big business guys want to turn a sierra lake full of frogs into a tungston mine or gravel pit, they poison the whole place and get a slap on the wrist. Then they desecrate the whole area. If we want to protect the environment, closing climbing areas is not the answer. That is just the big peckerheads demonstrating their absolute power and capricious, recklessness. The way to save the environment is to put a stop to the extreme greed of the 1% and stop exporting our natural resources. Stop undocumented immigration and educate people in cities about birth control. A decrease in subsidies for irresponsible procreation would reduce the footprint of our major cities. Its time to focus our attention on the big mega polluters and stop hassling little guys whose footprint is insignificant by comparison.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 11, 2017 - 02:12pm PT
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Several populations of the MYLF were discovered in recent years, but let's face it, the frogs face a lot of human impacts, and the national forest can only influence some of those.
Again, I wonder. If the frogs are found in a roadside creek which has been frequented by humans for some time now, is it not logical to deduce that the frogs live in the many streams virtually inaccessible to man throughout these mountains? Wouldn't it serve everyone well to get some people out into the recesses of these mountains to determine if these frogs are truly endangered? Seems like that would be the foundation for making good policy.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 11, 2017 - 02:24pm PT
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The frogs have been nearly wiped out by the chytrid fungus.
It has nothing to do with human interaction.
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Apr 11, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
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Tony, Nice piece of writing - thanks. Sorry you don't post on the taco anymore, as it would be nice to read your stuff.
Chainsaw, a bit of a scattergun rant there, buddy, but I can't say that you are wrong on many of the details. It reminds me of some endangered critter issues I know a bit more about. Some years ago I was involved for a number of years doing field work on a large Federally funded project wherein the Desert Tortoise was the endangered critter de jour. We had all kinds of foolish protocols we had to deal with working in his backyard, his backyard in this case being a large chunk of Federal land, and the project being one unpopular with the locals. That being said, just down the road about 60 miles in exactly the same habitat, with the same endangered critter lurking about, as desert tortoises are well known for their lurking, big honking housing projects and office parks went in higgedly piggedly with nary a peep of concern for those poor, unfortunate lurking tortoises. We were not impressed. In fact, we tended to do all manner of things to liberate said lurking tortoises whenever we encountered them, in direct contravention of what we had been taught and retaught in our annual "tortoise training courses" - part of our required annual certification to work on this project. So yea, chainsaw, I get where your coming from.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 11, 2017 - 04:13pm PT
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Gary nails it,
Someone up thread said Williamson offered the best cragging in SoCal, That's debatable.
Note:I climbed at Williamson from the early 90s until it closed.
It was fun, and convenient, but not a destination.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 11, 2017 - 04:14pm PT
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I climbed up at the Tunnels today and on the way home drove by Willy and there was a full army of NFS, AF and supposedly CBD and I hope Sierra Club reps standing around their vehicles as I drove by. I wanted to roll my window down and let out a "free Willy" yell but kept my mouth shut.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 11, 2017 - 04:16pm PT
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Funny that most of the people who don't really care if Willy opens either don't climb anymore or live out of the area.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 11, 2017 - 04:16pm PT
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10b ..... please tell me whats better?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 11, 2017 - 09:49pm PT
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Environmental_Quality_Act
allows development with environmental impact to be offset by mitigation...
The Angeles National Golf Club mitigated by The Big Tujunga Wash Mitigation Area... the compliance of the ANGC with the EIR was contentious for many years, not sure where Tony gets his information on this...
the conditions of this mitigation are still monitored.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2017 - 06:13am PT
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from the big bear newspaper--
Here is the Lake Fire story:
http://www.bigbeargrizzly.net/news/endemic-species-on-fire-rehab-list/article_5b9e4c92-3597-11e5-a44c-f3788eaebea2.html
Here is the Highway 330 story:
http://www.bigbeargrizzly.net/news/the-highway-repair-project-from-a-frog-s-point-of/article_36ce5ce8-fb53-5afc-98be-1adadb651f41.html
___
the people who run things don't understand the resiliency of nature. when things are right, man, those frogs go to town--right where you'd least suspect it, underneath a busy highway close to town. (it was 330, not 18.)
the faulty reasoning here assumes that humans are somehow poisonous to nature. we are not. we can do poisonous things, but our mere presence means nothing. climbers were doing nothing poisonous down in williamson gorge. the frogs were doing well enough, and they do well enough when circumstances are right. five years of drought haven't helped, but the frogs have survived droughts before.
no one understands the amphibian extinctions which take place. climate change? the ozone hole? (for some reason you never hear about the latter any more.) the beautiful golden toad in central america disappeared even faster than the MYLF. it wasn't what humans were doing locally, but it may have been what we do on the global scale. no one is smart enough, or brave enough, to make a declaration about that.
and you know what? no one really addresses it on the scale of macro-policy which might eventually succeed in doing something about it. that's too big and politically impossible. all the enviro-heroes do is focus on little corners of things and try to "preserve" them. they do little things--"mitigation"--and, as with that pygmy opossum and the frogs killed in the laboratories, they often make things worse.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 12, 2017 - 06:53am PT
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Ahh.... the ozone hole, that was right after they said we were heading into another ice age and that came right after they said if the population grew any more we'd all be in deep $hit. There is more money to be had global climate change research and fear mongering.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 12, 2017 - 07:26am PT
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healyje:
And, thank god for the CDB.
A CBD supporter.
This makes perfect sense.
His pretend expertise on so many levels make him a prime candidate for CBD indoctrination.
Their entire premise is "we know whats best".
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 12, 2017 - 07:56am PT
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There are always excesses and almost laughable examples such as the yellow-throated frog when governmental agencies are involved. The flip side of the coin is worse.....no regulations and no govermental agencies to protect endangered species and a world of continuing bio diversity degradation.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 12, 2017 - 08:02am PT
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His pretend expertise on so many levels make him a prime candidate for CBD indoctrination.
Do you have any experience in policy or politics? Do you have any idea how bad things would be environmentally without air, water and endangered species regulations and policy? Anyone want to go back to the air and water quality of the 60s and 70s?
Gotta love it when clueless climbers shoot themselves in the foot over and over and make the AFs job that much harder on every front.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 12, 2017 - 08:19am PT
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...the people who run things don't understand the resiliency of nature.
you have some anecdotes about "the resiliency of nature" but you generalize these to an all encompassing conclusion that "humans don't affect the environment." It seems to be a self-serving conclusion lacking sound evidence.
The introduction of exotic species, e.g. stocking fish in streams and mountain lakes (where there had been no fish before) had a devastating affect on California amphibian populations. These introduced fish provided sport for humans, and now supports a major California-eastside economy. There is little room for nature to be resilient in this case, without eliminating these exotic species... a very contentious policy with major economic impact.
In the case of Williamson Rock, it was the lack of a study to determine the factors that affect the MYLF population that closed things down. It is quite possible that a study would come to the conclusion that coexistence is possible, or that humans could alter their behavior in such a way to avoid affecting the frogs. The CBD along with three other organization (the SC being one of them) took their case to court and the court found in favor of their complaint, a finding that required the government agency in charge of the NEPA/CEQA process to conduct the study the process requires before accepting the management plan for that region.
While other recreational groups participated in the development of the Management Plan for the Angeles Forest, it seems climbers were absent in the process, when I looked through the minutes of the meetings I find a lot of mention of the mountain bikers, for instance, none for climbers. When climbers reject the idea of forming groups to support their interests, they forfeit their opportunity to affect policy regarding access. The Access Fund must have the support of local climbers to be effective, they cannot be expected to defend climbers' access "rights" everywhere, all the time, and basically alone.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 12, 2017 - 08:31am PT
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There are always excesses and almost laughable examples such as the yellow-throated frog when governmental agencies are involved. The flip side of the coin is worse.....no regulations and no govermental agencies to protect endangered species and a world of continuing bio diversity degradation.
Do you have any experience in policy or politics? Do you have any idea how bad things would be environmentally without air, water and endangered species regulations and policy? Anyone want to go back to the air and water quality of the 60s and 70s?
Gotta love it when clueless climbers shoot themselves in the foot over and over and make the AFs job that much harder on every front.
Very well said.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 12, 2017 - 09:05am PT
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10b.... you got a better place to climb around here????
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 12, 2017 - 09:09am PT
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The truth is, climbers in general are not team players.
The "climbing community" is an oxymoron.
Their ability to put ego aside and focus on an individual problem as a group is incredibly weak.
This makes them easy fodder for such organizations as the Center for Biological Diversity.
This thread alone proves a consensus on access is non existent.
Williamson will open one day with little support from climbers and with many new rules and regulations. It will then close again when the rules are broken. This will be an endless cycle.
I never considered myself a "climber" in the same context as many here do. They seem like arrogant, selfish azzholes to be honest.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Apr 12, 2017 - 10:08am PT
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Glad your manners have improved Tony. welcome back.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 12, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
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10b.... you got a better place to climb around here????
Stoney Point, of course.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 12, 2017 - 12:05pm PT
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Not since Pin Scars was chopped
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 12, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
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10b.... this is a serious question, I for one would like to know.
I mean T and S are world class, but for Sport Climbing? Holcomb? Quarry?
ECHO, Malibu?????
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 12, 2017 - 12:42pm PT
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10b.... this is a serious question, I for one would like to know.
My vote is for Holcomb. More routes, and better scenery; and because of the drive, it keeps the riff raff out.
If it's good enough for Pat Brennan, it's good enough for me.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Apr 12, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
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Given the invective that passes for wit on this Forum, I hesitate to respond to this thread -- which is premised on opinion posing as "facts," but (as much of the other comment above) no doubt born of genuine frustration.
Like most everything, the reality is far more complex than the simplicity proffered.
Will Williamson be re-opened? This is not certain - but not for lack of the dedication of a number of climbers and the Access Fund. [Though a few strident voices like to use the Access Fund and those involved as their favorite "whipping boys." Quick on critique, short on solutions.]
If Williamson re-opens, will the experience again be that of the glory days of olde? Most certainly not. There will need to be concessions made for there even to be considered allowing use of a crag that literally abuts critical frog habitat.
For my part, I sincerely believe the majority of climbers are responsible and thoughtful, even if they are not vociferous or represented by the narrow demographic of SuperTopo. And with that, there lies the potential for a solution.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 12, 2017 - 02:37pm PT
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^^^ The eternal optimist.
I need to keep these thoughts in mind when I look at ST and consider it representative of the general population of climbers out west.
I saw the access fund completely drop the ball on this issue. It wasn't imagined.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Apr 12, 2017 - 03:16pm PT
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The new top secret destination crag is Castaic (aka Rabbit Rock).
But you didn't hear that from me.
Let the stampede begin.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 12, 2017 - 03:21pm PT
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and because of the drive, it keeps the riff raff out.
The last time I went up to Holcomb the place was full on mobbed. And the sound effects were great.
"C'mon man you got this!"
"Sh*t. This was easy last time!"
"NO!! Reach up left hand first. Just get your right foot on the knob, then reach!"
"When I say take, I mean TAKE! Now I have to do those moves all over again!"
"What do I do now? Untie and lower?"
Sorry Steve, I'm half kidding but I couldn't help myself. Willy was a zoo often enough too...
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 12, 2017 - 03:40pm PT
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Spider.... come on!!!! That place is TOTAL CHOSS. I have had to almost carry Yafer out cause a watermelon size boulder rolled out of his two hands and almost decapitated his kneecap, and Levi got smacked on the head by a cantaloupe size rock, causing the blood to flow......
if your brave enuf to go, bring a construction helmet and football shoulder pads......for climbing and by gods sake use a grigri, cause if you bean your belayer you can survive.
total choss
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Apr 12, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
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I saw the access fund completely drop the ball on this issue...
Access Fund, USFS and CBD did a site visit to Williamson yesterday, while you were sitting here posting your usual brand of disinformation.
Curt
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 12, 2017 - 04:02pm PT
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So Curt..... lets see if anything gets done. It has been about 10+ years.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 12, 2017 - 04:28pm PT
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I drove by the site walk through group in the parking lot at Willy yesterday, half of them looked like they just went to REI and bought all new hiking gear just for the occasion, didn't look too outdoorsy too me, probably the CBD folks.
On a side note I took a friend of mine to the Tunnel crag yesterday who donates annually to the CBD and believes in what they are doing. We stopped at a pull out and I showed him the area closed and stream. Without prompting he said, "why can't they just make the streamed off limits? I don't see how climbing on the rest of the rock would harm the MYF". Hmmm..... seems common sense to me.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 12, 2017 - 05:07pm PT
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Everyone knew about the "meeting" curt. BFD.
More BS brought to you by the usual suspects.
These actors are playing the game and the CBD makes the rules.
Fuk those guys.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 12, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
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Sorry Steve, I'm half kidding but I couldn't help myself. Willy was a zoo often enough too...
Kris, it's because they are gym climbers. :-)
I remember back about 2002. I was meeting friends at Willy. I got there early, and was standing outside my car. There were a lot of people that day. All of a sudden this girl steps out on the road, drops her pants, and takes a piss. Next thing you know a car drives by real slowly, and stares at this girl. The occupants of the car were older. They pulled up to me, and asked me what all the people were doing there. I told them that more than likely they were rock climbing at Williamson Rock.
I don't know if these people were hikers, Sierra Cllub members, or knew what Williamson Rock was.
My point is that if you connect the dots, there are reasons that people want to keep Williamson closed.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 12, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
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Way to generalize 10b.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2017 - 07:18pm PT
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if the access fund people were there, they never told me about it. they know how i feel about it, and i gave them a pretty good backgrounding when we had that conference call.
but you see, that's how it's done. special interests, paid lobbyists, secret decisions, no explanations, no public meetings. a few "leaders"--picked by the government--telling us what to do. need i mention names?
but that leads to one more point which ought to be raised.
they had a sign up there for a few years, "area closed". then it was gone one day and it hasn't been back since. four or five years now, no "area closed" sign.
COULD IT BE THAT THERE IS NO REAL AUTHORITY TO CLOSE THIS AREA?
i've never known the federal government to be shy about putting up "keep out" signs when it has the authority to do so. closing public land is a serious matter. this "closure" was made without any sort of due process or public meetings that i can recall. it was done unilaterally, apparently inspired by nothing more than the threat of a lawsuit.
WHY WAS THAT SIGN TAKEN DOWN?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 12, 2017 - 07:45pm PT
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one must not underestimate the heft of the toad lobby either. self same slimy critters what sprung P. Morris and Co.
I hear the frogs bought off the fed with money from Amphibian Fetish Orgy I and II.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Apr 12, 2017 - 08:38pm PT
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they had a sign up there for a few years, "area closed". then it was gone one day and it hasn't been back since. four or five years now, no "area closed" sign.
COULD IT BE THAT THERE IS NO REAL AUTHORITY TO CLOSE THIS AREA?
i've never known the federal government to be shy about putting up "keep out" signs when it has the authority to do so. closing public land is a serious matter. this "closure" was made without any sort of due process or public meetings that i can recall. it was done unilaterally, apparently inspired by nothing more than the threat of a lawsuit.
The most recent closure "started" a few weeks ago and goes through 12/31/2018. I don't know anything about the sign.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd536828.pdf
Curt
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 12, 2017 - 10:39pm PT
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but you see, that's how it's done. special interests, paid lobbyists, secret decisions, no explanations, no public meetings. a few "leaders"--picked by the government--telling us what to do. need i mention names?
How it's done is by having rational conversations based on the law, science, court rulings, policy and regulations. When climbers are emotional, hopped up and spewing conspiratorial nonsense they tend to not get invited to those discussions. Again, let the AF do their thing - representing our interests is what they do and they do it well.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Apr 13, 2017 - 06:18am PT
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Yeah Tony- Love to see you post again BTW :)
A few years after the closure I ended up sitting a dinner party. The guy next to me after a while sheepishly fesses up that he's one of the YLMF researchers up there after Willi came up in conversation.
I asked him about his research. He says that what they discovered was that introduced fish,bullfrogs and fungus were actually the main culprit with all native frog species declining. He also stated that between the fire and drought the Williamson population was gone. ;(
I'm generally pro-critter but this is getting ridiculous.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 13, 2017 - 06:39am PT
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Hey, Maidy:
Well, shouldn't this settle it?
He also stated that between the fire and drought the Williamson population was gone. ;(
RIP froggy, but what the hell? Does the AF know about this? What possible rationale do they have to continue the closure? The frog might come back? Maybe these folks should be looking for other surviving populations. Gah.
BAd
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 13, 2017 - 06:50am PT
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Upsetting to me that there's so much dislike for the Center for Biological Diversity.
After all, isn't it the CBD that's filed suits demanding MYLF recovery/management plans from the government agencies?
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 13, 2017 - 07:07am PT
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Nothing pissed me off more than when some mamby-pamby, fancy pants scientist wouldn't let me take my shift down in the mine just because some little f*#king canary died.
TimidTopeRope understands the issue.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 13, 2017 - 07:30am PT
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drljefe:
Upsetting to me that there's so much dislike for the Center for Biological Diversity.
After all, isn't it the CBD that's filed suits demanding MYLF recovery/management plans from the government agencies?
These lawsuits waste taxpayer money and make the CBD rich. You may have a different opinion when your local crag is closed due to endangered sand fleas.
Gary
Apr 13, 2017 - 07:07am PT
Nothing pissed me off more than when some mamby-pamby, fancy pants scientist wouldn't let me take my shift down in the mine just because some little f*#king canary died.
TimidTopeRope understands the issue.
Timiidtoprope obviously advocates for the closure of Williamson.
As do you and many others here. You all have the right to your own opinion.
The closure of WR is a drag but, the bigger and more important issue is the growth of the CBD with it's misguided values.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 13, 2017 - 07:40am PT
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Sandfleas lol.
If sandfleas were an indicator species and my shitty crag were their southernmost habitat, I'd respect the closure.
Fortunately, I have a lot more, and a lot better crags than Williamson.
:-)
Sorry your cliff is bogged down in government apathy- I was just saying that I thought the CBD suit was filed to force action, one way or another.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 13, 2017 - 07:46am PT
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Sorry your cliff is bogged down in government apathy- I was just saying that I thought the CBD suit was filed to force action, one way or another.
The lawsuit was filed to keep humans out of the area.
Like I said, the more important issue is the growth of this litigious, black mailing group of lawyers that is the Center for Biological Diversity.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 13, 2017 - 07:56am PT
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Lie ^^^
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 13, 2017 - 07:57am PT
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These lawsuits waste taxpayer money and make the CBD rich.
Complete crock of shite as I posted up earlier from Charity Navigator - they are not getting rich, the money goes into litigation and programs. Go CBD...
April 12, 2017 / Center For Biological Diversity, Grijalva Sue Over Border Wall
April 6, 2017 / Conservation, Fishing Groups Launch Lawsuit to Protect Coho Salmon From Oregon State Forest Logging
April 6, 2017 / California Salmon and Wildlife Win Court Protection From Logging
April 1, 2017 / EPA Approves Dangerous Water Quality Standard for Cadmium
April 10, 2017 / Greens Fight San Bernardino’s Plan for River Water
March 31, 2017 / Lawsuit Challenges FDA's Approval of Genetically Engineered Salmon
February 18, 2016 / Legal Challenge Launched to Restore Santa Clara River Steelhead
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 13, 2017 - 08:03am PT
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The lawsuit was filed to force the gov to come up with a recovery/management plan.
The gov is dragging its ass.
The CBD very well might not like the plan that the Sevice produces, and decide to sue again.
Who knows.
But thanks to the CBD, you might just know a little bit quicker.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 13, 2017 - 08:09am PT
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Climbers for closing crags.
You guys can start your own organization.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 13, 2017 - 08:14am PT
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Go waste some race fuel at a track day while you can.
I'm crusading to close Willow Springs next!
:-)
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 13, 2017 - 08:15am PT
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I haven't raced there in years idiot.
The CBD will keep taking from you clowns until it effects you directly.
Wasted enough time here. have fun
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Apr 13, 2017 - 08:15am PT
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Climbers for closing crags.
You guys can start your own organization.
The more people try to help you out by explaining what's really going on with the Williamson closure, the more belligerent you appear to get. It's baffling, really.
Curt
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2017 - 08:23am PT
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that closure order is interesting on several counts. it's effective from 3-24-17 through 12-31-18, a rather temporary measure. how many of these have we had since 2009? you can bet that no one held any "public information meetings" every 20 months for each order.
quoting from the linked document:
"Public information meetings were conducted extensively between 2009 and 2011 as part of the ongoing efforts to resolve the situation. Meetings were held with representatives of the rock climbing community since the popuilar rock climbing site (Williamson Rock) is within the area."
pay close attention to this doubletalk.
"MEETINGS WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF THE ROCK CLIMBING COMMUNITY"
are NOT
"PUBLIC INFORMATION MEETINGS".
there never were any "public information meetings", well advertised and open to all, at least that i ever heard about, and i was in quite a position to have heard. until shortly before the closure, i was active in the southern california mountaineers association, the major rockclimbing club in the los angeles area. for several years i led monthly SCMA trips into the gorge. no one came to us, again that i know of, and asked us to be involved, and no general meetings were held, again, that i know of. such meetings should have been advertised well in advance to all interested parties. AT THE VERY LEAST A NOTICE OUGHT TO HAVE BEEN PLACED AT THE GORGE ITSELF ADVERTISING POTENTIAL CLOSURE. was this ever done?
the forest service picked the people it wanted to deal with and basically created an organization, friends of williamson rock, to administer its controversial actions to its imaginary climbing community. troy mayr reportedly organized it at THEIR behest. he ran it with a small, hand-selected committee. no one voted for anyone. i attended one of their meetings with ben chapman, who used to co-lead those trips with me, but we were never invited to serve on their board. now troy is a fine fellow and was one of the principal route developers down in the gorge. he authored several sportclimbing guidebooks. but the buzz about him at the time was that he had lost most of his interest in rockclimbing and was getting into "other things". judging from the inactivity of the FoWR, i'd say the buzz was right on.
the bottom line here is that the science involved is damned crummy science. scientists seem to have killed more frogs trying to breed them than are being preserved by shutting down this climbing area. where did they get those experimental frogs anyway? maybe there are a lot more frogs out there than they want us to know about. if more frogs are bred inadvertantly by a creek undercutting a highway than they can come up with in their test tubes, maybe someone ought to be buying up a few creeks and highways. the real issues are: 1) just how diminished IS the MYLF? 2) just how essential is the williamson micro-habitat to its survival? and 3) does climbing in the gorge really have any impact on this frog population?
the climbing area at williamson is dry as a bone beginning late spring even on wet years. the gorge itself, with rock and a waterfall, constitutes a pretty effective barrier, isolating the springs upstream, which are the frogs' main habitat. little rock creek has had some trout fishing, but i doubt there has been much in recent years because of drought. the creek itself goes bone dry, miles and miles of it. i guess i have to explain some of my jokes. climbers aren't really frog voyeurs. i was just kidding about that. in fact, i haven't talked to a single climber who ever even SAW a frog at williamson.
there was one scientist, i believe from UC santa cruz, who addressed this issue credibly. the MYLF diminished because of many factors--trout, a fungus, environmental stress. he sure didn't mention rockclimbers. but to do a little scientific homework for you geniuses, the trout have been in the lakes and creeks for a long time. they didn't suddenly develop gourmet tastes for MYLF tadpoles. the frogs are diminished because of factors which no one can pinpoint. as with the bark beetle which attacks our trees, there are macro factors involved. trees are vulnerable because of drought. they don't have that protective sap flowing through their veins. you aren't going to save the trees by spraying the forests for beetles. you just have to accept the drought and the dying that goes with it. same applies to our frog. but look how well it can do when it gets a chance, as it did at big bear.
from pud's link to a 2012 congressional report on the CBD:
"The Center for Biological Diversity today sent a letter to House Natural Resources Committee Chairman Doc Hastings claiming their organization had only received $553,000 in taxpayer funds resulting from Endangered Species Act (ESA) related attorney fees and court cases. This claim conflicts with data obtained from the Department of Justice (DOJ), which shows over $2 million in taxpayer dollars have been paid out to the Center for Biological Diversity and their attorneys for cases open between 2009-2012 ...
"'American taxpayers have a right to know how much of their money is going to pay attorneys and settlement costs for lawsuit-happy organizations that make a living off of suing the federal government. The numbers from the Justice Department speak for themselves,' said Chairman Hastings. 'One frequent collector of taxpayer dollars spent a week inventing a way to misconstrue and hide data to make it appear as though they haven’t received millions in taxpayer dollars.' ...
"According to this document from the DOJ containing 276 pages of case information, the Center for Biological Diversity was involved in over 50 individual cases, open between 2009 and 2012, where they were the lead plaintiff. The amount of attorney fees and court costs associated with these cases is $2,286,686.91. Of this amount, $138,114.45 was in court costs and $2,148,572.46 was in attorney fees."
this questionable activity seems to have begun in 2009--the date of closure of williamson rock.
(correct that: williamson closure seems to have been in 2006.)
"lawsuit-happy organizations that make a living off of suing the federal government"? looks kinda sketchy there, wouldn't you say?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 13, 2017 - 09:20am PT
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$2,148,572.46
Boy, we're really talking about making a killing when spread across all their inside and outside attorneys.
"lawsuit-happy organizations that make a living off of suing the federal government"?
Or, environmental organizations trying to stop corporations and their government proxies from doing endless harm.
Clueless...and even more clueless that you don't really get it's not about climbing or WR - they're just collateral damage which is being addressed by the AF. Think any of you screamers and wailers are going to be more effective then the AF or move the process along any faster than them?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 13, 2017 - 09:27am PT
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Or, environmental organizations trying to stop corporations and their government proxies from doing endless harm.
Is that what they did at Williamson?
JTM says the frogs are gone. They didn't do so well under CBD stewardship. Seems like a lot of money and hassle for nothing.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 13, 2017 - 11:39am PT
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Thanks for calling me an idiot pud.
I suggest recusing yourself from the Williamson fight-
Someone who's not a total hair triggered dick would be a better voice.
Maybe someone who can write a f ucking petition, too.
Good luck squid.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Apr 13, 2017 - 11:46am PT
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Willy-nilly...
wil·ly-nil·ly
ˌwilēˈnilē/
adverb
1.
whether one likes it or not.
"he would be forced to collaborate willy-nilly"
synonyms: haphazardly, at random, randomly, every which way, here and there, all over the place, in no apparent order
"cars were parked willy-nilly"
2.
without direction or planning; haphazardly.
"politicians expanded spending programs willy-nilly"
synonyms: haphazardly, at random, randomly, every which way, here and there, all over the place, in no apparent order
"cars were parked willy-nilly"
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 13, 2017 - 11:55am PT
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Thanks for calling me an idiot pud.
If it walks like a duck...
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tradryan
Big Wall climber
San Diego
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Apr 13, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
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So much misinformation... don't know where to start. Also don't feel like reading this whole thread.
So there's an anecdote about a culvert and hundreds of MYLFs from the guy on the chair lift, who is presumably not qualified to differentiate between Rana muscosa, anaxyrus boreas, pseudachris sierrae, etc. Simply put: he's probably mistaken.
Then there's a post about how it's all chytrid's fault and people have nothing to do with it. Well people spread chytrid, stock waterways with trout, cause stressors that exacerbate chytrid, alter habitat...
So ya'll are butthurt because you can't belay standing on top of some "supposedly" endangered species. God ya'll are dum..
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tradryan
Big Wall climber
San Diego
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Apr 13, 2017 - 12:40pm PT
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My favorite part though: All these assertions about the BIG MONEY going to wildlife protection. BWAHAHAHAA!! Yea, we're all in this for the money. My college roommates work on wall street. Suckers..
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 13, 2017 - 12:51pm PT
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MYLFs and CBDs
What's not to love!!!!
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 13, 2017 - 12:57pm PT
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People were climbing at Horse Flats, and Pacifico way before Williamson was developed.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 13, 2017 - 02:21pm PT
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10b4me,
Yep people were climbing at Horse Flats and Pacifico, myself included. The road to Pacifico has been closed for years with no plans for an opening anytime soon. Horse flats is great for bouldering and as you probably know has very few options for roped climbing aside from the Pie Slice and the Ant Line wall. The Horse Flats road used to be open year round but is now only seasonally open. Angeles Crest is a great place in the summer to beat the heat but with only Horse Flats and the Tunnel Crag the choices are getting fewer and fewer Pacifico just isn't a viable option unless you want to haul your rope and rack by mountain bike. Williamson isn't the first crag to close due to an endangered species and it won't be the last. What will the next area be? When the next area does close you can bet that the local climbing population will be just as "butt hurt" as we are and fight to try and find a compramise to the issue. If Donner Summit, Lovers Leap, Castle Rock, The Pinnacles etc... the list goes on and on, those are all someones local crag, if they were closed to climbing due to a frog non of the climbers had never seen you can bet the outcry would be 10X what you are hearing from the Willy crowd and I would bet the AF would jump on it a lot harder than they have for Willy. Williamson had been my home crag since 1974 when my dad took me climbing there and I had hoped to take my sone and daughter climbing there but neither of my kids have had the pleasure to climb there yet. Somewhere in the back of your mind you have to understand our frustration. If there is really is a viable frog population that is being harmed by climbers then by all means I get it, even then it would seem logical to keep climbers away from the water but still climb on the 90% of the crag that is not near the water. I just get tired of hearing other climbers who don't live in the area or don't climb anymore to just let it go and give it up. Thats an easy answer for a person who it doesn't impact.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Apr 13, 2017 - 07:17pm PT
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Ignore the critics Tony. Many of us enjoy what you have to say and the way you say it.
When you get going to where you stop capitalizing the first word of sentances and proper nouns I can just picure that vein buldging in your forehead.
Good stuff in this thread. Can we be clever with each other without getting insulting and threatening? We are brothers all around.
Guyman - Joking (not Joking) about Castaic.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 13, 2017 - 09:14pm PT
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...there never were any "public information meetings", well advertised and open to all, at least that i ever heard about,...
I'll dig into where I read about the public information meetings.
As far as being informed on the current project, there is this web site I linked to in another thread:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=43405
the link to the document at the bottom of the page, you'll find a timeline... the next public comment opportunity is in the Fall of 2017. There are also links to provide comments... there was one provided for the first comment period (Jan 2014)...
...the comments is from the USGS, who have been monitoring the MYLF since 2001.
USGS ecologist's report
That letter answers many of Tony's question regarding the status of the MYLF in Little Rock Creek, and in the larger context of SoCal.
You can read as well as I so I'll leave it to you to have a look at that document.
I just get tired of hearing other climbers who don't live in the area or don't climb anymore to just let it go and give it up. Thats an easy answer for a person who it doesn't impact.
some of us climb, some of us used to live in the area, and most of us are concerned, however, this is yet-another-Williamson-Rock thread bemoaning the fate of the local area on a Forum with a much larger scope of interest... if the Williamson Rock folk don't want others to comment, why do they post on one of the most notorious sites for getting comments... from everyone...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2017 - 05:26am PT
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ed hartouni gives us one interesting link here.
it seems we are IN THE MIDST OF DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE WILLIAMSON IMBROGLIO.
did anyone else realize that? take a look at his first link. (i can't get the second one to work.)
i usually check the FoWR page to see if anything is going on. their home page has nothing. the most recent news on their "news" page is a long letter written in 2010. otherwise, nothing, nothing, nothing. i guess that either troy mayr has lost complete interest in williamson--along with others on his board like jack marshall--or the forest service is conducting all this apparently very important review without telling anyone, other than posting it on a government website. ed knows his way around those things better than most.
the government used to conduct open meetings on controversial subjects. now they have "scoping periods". that allows important people to stay in the kitchen without having to feel any heat. there were scoping periods on williamson for about a month (including the holidays!) in dec-jan 2013-14 and another one for a full year aug 2014-sept 2015. aren't you glad you missed them?
these all led to a draft plan which is currently being prepared. there will be a 45-day comment period on it this fall. better learn to pay attention. don't rely on the FoWR.
all i can say is god damn.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2017 - 06:08am PT
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ed is scolding us climbers for not being involved here. he lives up north and isn't close to the situation. when this first came about we were all encouraged--and we can thank mr. looking-sketchy for pushing this as well--to "act together", the best way to get things done and interact with the government. so we got FoWR. my manners are about to get pretty bad now ...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2017 - 07:41am PT
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fixed the link...
you will find there that the climbing closure came before the "recovery" of the MYLF population in that creek...
certainly a strong indication that the people had a large, negative effect on the MYLF.
I think it might be very difficult to persuade the ANF that climbers could go back to using that site as they had previously.
Given the passion exhibited in these many threads by the proponents of climbing at Williamson Rock, I'm surprised that any of you would be surprised regarding the current process, it has been ongoing since 2014.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 14, 2017 - 07:42am PT
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If there is really is a viable frog population that is being harmed by climbers...
You guys just aren't getting it - it has nothing to do with climbing or climbers who are surely NOT harming the frogs and everything to do with managing 'recreational use' management - in toto - in identified habitat areas (please note, climbing falls under that rubric of 'recreational use'). Climbing will get sorted out along with the PCT and every other recreational use once an EIS is done and an appropriate recreational use policy can be written.
It's unlikely they are going to deal with climbing separately from every other recreational use of WR because if they did you'd hear the PCT and other user groups howling. Crikey, let the AF do their thing.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2017 - 08:46am PT
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ed knows his way around those things better than most.
perhaps,
you can click on a link off of that page and get emailed (or RSSd) messages regarding the process.
and given the amount of time posting to this thread (and the like) a small amount time searching around the net for news might have been very useful, and even warranted.
finally, I didn't have to spend a lot of time to find that link...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 14, 2017 - 08:49am PT
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What guys like ed and healje don't "get" is the fact that a single small organization has managed to blackmail the federal government into taking public land away from the public. Done under the pretext of an idea that is completely unproven.
It's no more complicated than that.
This is not the first EIS done in this area on this issue, or the last.
A dozen years of red tape with no end in sight.
This is exactly what the CBD intended and accomplished.
Ed's right about one thing, this is part of a much bigger picture than climbers and frogs at WR. It's about litigation and the powers it gives to organizations that wish to dictate when and where we enjoy or world.
As noted by Tony, these people allow dozens of frogs and hundreds of tadpoles of this endangered animal to die in their failed attempts at regeneration in the lab but will not allow recreationalists within a thousand feet of their supposed habitat.
FoWR was formed to fight for this area and their 1st request was to silence climbers and not have them call or complain to the agencies involved. Complete failure on their part.
The access fund stepped in late and has done nothing. Sorry AF fans but it's true.
The USFWS, ANF or any other federal agency is not going help the public reclaim this land.
Expecting the very agencies that bent over so quickly for the CBD's (and sierra club) lawyers to stand up and do the right thing is silly.
It is far more important to stop organizations like the CBD from continuing to use our legal system to blackmail the government into abiding by their agendas.
A class action lawsuit against organizations that waste taxpayer dollars is needed.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 14, 2017 - 09:03am PT
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What guys like ed and healje don't "get" is the fact that a single small organization has managed to blackmail the federal government into taking public land away from the public.
Not even wrong.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2017 - 09:05am PT
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As noted by Tony, these people allow dozens of frogs and hundreds of tadpoles of this endangered animal to die in their failed attempts at regeneration in the lab...
Tony relates a story he heard from some unknown, unnamed source... it would have been better for Tony to actually document, to at least a small extent, that story.
What guys like ed and healje don't "get" is the fact that a single small organization has managed to blackmail the federal government into taking public land away from the public.
The CBD is using the judicial system to insure that the law is followed, in this case the proper EIS's were not prepared for the use management plans, for this area. The CBD (and others) took the USG to court, and won. Part of the settlement in the latest go-round was a finding by the court that eliminated financial awards. The CBD definitely has an agenda, it's mission is contained in their organization's name, making money from the suits isn't part of the motive. The majority of their funds come from their membership contributions.
From what I gather, no one on any side of these issues likes to see the CBD involved, it usually means someone blew it in the NEPA/CEQA process... if the ANF had dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's in the first place, it would have been more difficult for the CBD to have challenged the process.
And finally, the plaintiffs in this latest suit were (from the previously linked document)
Plaintiff
Center for Biological Diversity is a tax-exempt, non-profit membership organization with nearly 60,000 members, including 4,800 members in southern California. Hogan Dec. ¶ 2. Plaintiff Los Padres ForestWatch is an 800-member, community-based non-profit organization headquartered in Santa Barbara, California, which seeks to protect the Los Padres National Forest and other public lands along California's Central Coast. Kuyper Dec. ¶ 2. Plaintiff Sierra Club is a 700,000 member non-profit organization which currently leads over one thousand outings per year to the Los Padres, Angeles, San Bernardino and Cleveland Forests. Corcoran Dec. ¶¶ 4-5. Plaintiff Defenders of Wildlife is an organization with over 535,000 members nationwide that advocates for the protection of all native wild animals and plants in their natural communities. Flick Dec. ¶ 4. Plaintiff California Native Plant Society is a statewide non-profit organization of amateurs and professionals with a common interest in California's native plants. Anderson Dec. ¶ 2.
not "a single small organization," many organizations, and they are not small... how many climbers in SoCal? how many belong to one or more of those organizations?
Done under the pretext of an idea that is completely unproven.
not completely, the USGS ecologist's report shows (linked above and in the public record responding to this latest process) that after the climbing ban, the MYLF population in the creek recovered... one explanation is that the climbers were responsible for inhibiting recovery.
Given that this population is estimated to be greater than 30% of the remaining MYLF population in SoCal, you can see the source of the concern of the biologists in terms of protecting and preserving this population.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2017 - 09:38am PT
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well, i have an email in to troy. i do hope he responds.
it would appear that FoWR has become fairly defuct and that the access fund is now our primary "representative". at least they seem to be the people the FS is willing to deal with. you have to do a search of the access fund website. the search will turn up a bunch of old articles by troy and the following, labeled only as "williamson rock", which has some recent information:
https://www.accessfund.org/take-action/campaigns/ongoing-campaigns/williamson-rock-california
that story about frogs dying in breeding attempts is my recollection from conversations with an FS biologist and an FS public relations person in the first years of this issue, ed. sticks in my mind for some reason. it may be hard to run down now. you will find that stories often change over time to protect important posteriors.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 14, 2017 - 09:40am PT
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Tut,
eat shit
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2017 - 09:46am PT
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but Tony, you have to agree that the details of such stories are important to get right...
here is a description of one MYLF captive breeding program
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 14, 2017 - 09:47am PT
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Glad I struck a nerve. Hope you learn something.
From a silverspoon fed yuppie in carmel? Unlikely.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 14, 2017 - 09:49am PT
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The loss of the frogs in the laboratories in San Diego is on record.
What tony states is accurate.
I can dig it up next week.
(I'm out the door to go spend time in unrestricted wilderness)
Ciao !
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 14, 2017 - 10:22am PT
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When they closed down a crag in Los Angeles
I did not give a sh#t, cause its not the place where I climb at.
When they made Heller Rock into wilderness, and closed it, I did not give a crap cause I have already been their done that.
So, King Tut, drjefe, Gary, healyje, 10b, Ed, donini, timip, curt, Jim B, randisi..... when THEY come and close down your favorite climbing place....
Please do not ask me to give a crap
regards, good day
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2017 - 10:55am PT
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from:
2012 5-year Review for mountain yellow-legged frog
Captive Breeding and Reintroduction/Population Augmentation Program
In accordance with the Service’s Policy Regarding Controlled Propagation of Species Listed under the ESA (USFWS and NOAA 2000, p. 56921), we requested and obtained Regional Director [Manager] approval for use of captive propagation for the conservation and recovery of Rana muscosa (USFWS 2007, pp. 1–4). The approved program includes translocation (USGS 2007a, pp.1-32). We had previously issued a 10(a)(1)(A) permit to USGS to facilitate a captive breeding, reintroduction, and population augmentation program for southern Rana muscosa (USFWS 2006b pp. 1–12), and amended this permit in 2011 to include additional recovery actions for the DPS (USFWS 2011a, pp. 1–7). Thus far, the program has helped to maintain captive populations collected in emergency salvages, allowed for the breeding of individuals in captivity and concurrent research of biological requirements, and helped to introduce the first re-establishment effort at Indian Creek in Hall Canyon. The initiation of this program originally occurred in 2003 after the Old Fire burned the habitat at East Fork City Creek and subsequent flooding scoured the area. Ten adults were salvaged, although all were infected with both mycobacteriosis and the pathogenic chytrid fungus, Bd (A. Pessier, SD Zoo ICR, 2006, pers. comm.; J. Lemm, SD Zoo ICR, 2006, pers. comm.). The health of these frogs deteriorated in captivity. Individuals were treated for chytridiomycosis in anti-fungal baths; however, the treatment did not clear all infections. All animals eventually perished as a result of mycobacteriosis by 2006.
Eighty first-year tadpoles collected in the Dark Canyon emergency salvage of 2006 were raised in captivity at the SD Zoo ICR and are the source captive population for the first experimental re-establishment at Indian Creek in Hall Canyon. In captivity, 73 salvaged tadpoles metamorphosed into frogs in 2008. By December 2010, 56 adults remained alive in captivity, 10 of which were transferred to the LA Zoo in order to protect this genetic line at two facilities (Santana 2012a, pers. comm.). The first successful breeding occurred in 2008, with a single female producing a clutch of 100 eggs, only 3 of which developed into tadpoles because the eggs were overcome with Saprolegnia (water mold), which is common in aquatic environments. One adult from this cohort remains alive in captivity today.
In 2010, an experiment at the SD Zoo ICR demonstrated significantly higher reproductive output after captive individuals were hibernated at 40°F (4.5°C), compared to non-hibernated individuals (Santana 2012a, pers. comm.). In 2010, six females (all hibernated) produced approximately 870 eggs. In May and August of 2010, 300 eggs and 36 tadpoles were released at Indian Creek, and monitored post-release until December 2010 (Santana 2012a, pers. comm.). A subset of tadpoles were caged and fed in pools in Indian Creek for 3 months prior to the December release; 100 percent of caged animals survived until December. Survivorship of uncaged tadpoles was less clear, although three of these animals were observed before the 2010 monitoring period was complete. Released animals have not been detected in subsequent surveys in 2011, though this not surprising, due to the low detection rate of tadpoles (Santana 2012a, pers. comm.).
After the hibernation experiment of 2010 revealed that reproductive output is higher if hibernation occurs, all mature individuals at SD Zoo ICR were hibernated prior to the 2011 breeding season (Santana 2012a, pers. comm.). Forty individuals were bred (22 females) produced 4,846 eggs, an approximately six-fold increase in reproductive output. In 2011, 600 eggs and 310 surviving tadpoles were released at Indian Creek in Hall Canyon (Santana 2012a, pers. comm.). At the LA Zoo, 10 individuals (6 females) bred to produce approximately 1,000 eggs, 200 of which produced tadpoles (I. Recchio, LA Zoo 2012, pers. comm.). Progeny (160 tadpoles) from the LA Zoo were also released at Indian Creek in Hall Canyon in 2011 (Recchio 2012, pers. comm.). During monitoring, these individuals can be distinguished from those released in 2010 as they belong to different age classes.
After the Station Fire in 2009, the population in Devil’s Canyon was potentially at risk to catastrophic flooding and habitat alteration (Cannon et al. 2010, p. 1). Thus, a third emergency salvage took place and 106 first-year tadpoles were collected from Devil’s Canyon. These individuals were housed at the Fresno Zoo. Many of these individuals lived until the juvenile stage; however, the remaining juveniles died in captivity. This may have resulted from an accidental exposure to high levels of phosphate added to the municipal water source. However, no other amphibian species cared for in captivity by the Fresno Zoo exhibited any negative effects similar to that of southern Rana muscosa despite being exposed to the same water. The cause of death of these animals remains unclear.
A fourth emergency salvage was approved in 2011 to collect any remaining individuals from East Fork City Creek because reproduction had not been detected at this locality in over 7 years, the number of adults had been low for many years (Table 2), and this is the last known population in the San Bernardino Mountains. After intensive surveys in 2011, five adults and six metamorphs were found dispersed throughout the 5,000 m (16,250 ft) creek and were taken into captivity. This captive population suffered mortalities due to unknown causes. Metamorphs may have perished due to either water quality issues or exposure to a skin irritant (Santana 2012b, pers. comm.). Four adult frogs (one female) are now a part of the captive breeding program at the SD Zoo ICR.
Therefore, the current captive breeding program at two facilities represents approximately 50 individuals from one population (Dark Canyon) from the San Jacinto Mountains, and 4 individuals from the last known population in the San Bernardino Mountains (East Fork City Creek). Future efforts will also include translocations within and between populations to increase the size, distribution, and connectivity of populations, as well as to ameliorate genetic effects associated with small population size.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 14, 2017 - 11:12am PT
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Guyman-
How is it that you think I don't give a crap about your crag?
Jeez Louise.
Now you're gonna hair trigger me too, like pud?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2017 - 11:23am PT
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Please do not ask me to give a crap
guyman
I probably shouldn't be tracking this stuff down, but you SoCal climbers who seem so passionate about "the cause," Williamson Rock, seemed not to have been very involved in what has been going on...
...I at least took the time to find out.
You can make this an emotional issue, but that hardly ever helps when the going gets serious... maybe you should exchange the melodramatic displays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_..., really?) and get down to the more prosaic issue of what access might be possible.
After all, that is the point of the current EIS process, to see if there is a way to reconcile MYLF protection and climber recreational activity.
here's what the ecologist commented:
Implement long-term and seasonal closures
• If the site re-opens, we recommend enforcement of strict adherence to the staging area and the Long Trail with monitoring of use to ensure user compliance. Since 2006, we have direct observations of climbers using the Williamson Rock area despite the Closure Order. We feel that even if a small percentage of users violate the proposed stream closure, it will have a significant impact on the MYLF population recovery. During the open recreation period (August 16 – December 31) MYLF adults, juveniles, newly metamorphosed frogs, and tadpoles will all be in the stream. All of these life stages are sensitive to stream disturbances especially the newly metamorphosed frogs and tadpoles which are easily trampled in this small stream.
• Based on our captive breeding of the MYLF over the past seven years, we have learned that this species is extremely sensitive to slight changes in water chemistry. With the low flows found in the upper section of Little Rock Creek, the introduction of even the smallest amount of a foreign toxic substance can potentially alter the stream’s water chemistry to levels capable of negatively impacting MYLF. Substances of concern include sunscreen, lotions, and increases in nitrogen loads to the stream from human waste.
• Our data shows the locations of MYLF detected in Little Rock Creek from 2001 – 2013, see Figure 3. According to the maps provided in the scoping letter, we have concerns there will be direct impacts to MYLF at both the stream crossing of the Long Trail and Little Rock Creek and at the proposed staging area as MYLF have been detected at or near both locations.
• We recommend monitoring the soft physical barrier (e.g. cable barrier bolted/anchored into rock at stream banks) for the use of birds that may use this as a perch to forage on MYLF. Possibly the use of cameras with motion sensors to aid with monitoring. These should be signed indicating that disturbance of monitoring equipment will result in closure of the site.
• There is evidence in other ranid frogs that recreation too close to stream habitats causes a behavioral shift in the frogs that interferes with normal basking and foraging behavior (Rodríguez-Prieto and Fernández-Juricic 2005). An appropriate buffer may need to be determined to minimize human disturbance on MYLF.
• We recommend no dogs in the Williamson Rock area.
• We recommend day use only, no overnight use of the Williamson Rock area.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 14, 2017 - 11:33am PT
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Captive breeding?
I don't know who's more insane. The fundamentalist waterheads who deny the existence of evolution, or those who are trying to prevent evolution.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 14, 2017 - 12:07pm PT
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Captive breeding?
I don't know who's more insane. The fundamentalist waterheads who deny the existence of evolution, or those who are trying to prevent evolution.
Biology is clearly not your thing. Not every specie 'evolves', many more go extinct and that's under natural conditions; under pervasive human-made extinction pressures, captive breeding programs are often a last recourse to that alternative.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2017 - 01:19pm PT
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well, you've given us lots to read, ed, and that's appreciated, but i suggest you go through it all yourself and read it critically. it takes longer to read and analyze than to post links.
i did check my notes, and i don't have a reference for the 40 dead frogs. but it stuck in my mind so well i'm not ready to apologize for it at present. and the "hundreds of frogs" at big bear came from the guy on the chairlift, but he's a local and a pretty serious fellow.
one of your links calls the frog "nearly extinct". first i ever heard that one. "nearly extinct" ought to have stopped that highway project.
i think ksolem makes a very good point above. there's lots of habitat in the san gabes these people have probably never surveyed. and "the picture for southern california" does not apply here. we're being dictated to by a national organization and the federal government. as i said, this frog ranges from oregon down into baja. i'll bet there are lots of places where it survives. i also know there are some species of frog whose eggs can survive drought for years. when the rains come they quickly proliferate, breed, lay more eggs, and then die. the MYLF came down to the present through many drought cycles. i do hope all these researchers are savvy about that.
there are many reasons why williamson is VERY important to southern california climbers. there are something like 300 routes there on very good quality rock, a "highly featured" granite different from any other granite i've encountered in this state. for years we ignored it, thinking it was too crumbly and unprotectable. then the sport climbers came along and it quickly became the FAVORITE of los angeles climbers in summer. why? it's close in. takes an hour and a half to get up there, and it's nice and cool at 7,000 feet.
when williamson closed, echo cliff became the alternative. it's a 30-minute hike in, too hot in the summer, and pretty chossy by comparison. the closing also spurred other areas like texas canyon and holcomb valley to develop, and they have quickly become overused.
i will be the first to admit that williamson was overused in that heyday. we climbers ourselves tried to mitigate that. troy proposed establishing a solar toilet there and i got the SCMA to agree to contribute to it, but it fell flat. i have come to suspect that the forest service doesn't like ideas it doesn't come up with itself. it doesn't play ball with the public very well.
most people get into climbing these days via gyms, which makes williamson a particularly important resource: bolted climbing on quality rock, the sort of place where gym climbers can transition more easily. our really good places down here--josh and tahquitz--are practically worthless to anyone but the trad climber.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 14, 2017 - 01:25pm PT
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hmmm, what would a dick do?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2017 - 01:36pm PT
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not asking for an apology Tony,
keep digging, maybe use the excerpt above to help with a time scale.
I have read a lot of that info... not just posting links, there are many more links I didn't post, but read them too...
it's equally easy to post a "fact" from memory without any attempt to track it down...
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Apr 14, 2017 - 02:29pm PT
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" At the very least a notice ought to have been placed at the gorge itself advertising potential closure. was this ever done?"
The FS has notified the public regularly of the closures and the public has had numerous opportunities to comment. They follow all the legally determined procedures and NEPA process. Are you actually trying to claim the public was unaware of what was happening? Of course the FS mostly pays attention to the comments of the powerful, as well as court orders.
"JTM says the frogs are gone."
No, they're not.
"the science involved is damned crummy science."
Is that supposed to be a scientific argument? Where is your science to disprove their rationale? Are you planning to countersue the CBD?
" in fact, i haven't talked to a single climber who ever even SAW a frog at williamson."
Yet they exist upstream and downstream of the crag. How do you suppose they got there? Jumped a mile in a single bound?
Answer: see the pic in the ecologist's report Ed posted.
"it seems we are IN THE MIDST OF DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE WILLIAMSON IMBROGLIO. did anyone else realize that? "
I thought everyone posting lengthy comments here was aware of that. It's been posted numerous times in various threads for years. Yes it's a very slow process, with numerous delays, partly since knowledge about the species was limited 12 years ago.
Did you miss this also:
http://www.nfwf.org/angelesfire/Pages/ANF_NEPA_williamsonrock.aspx
"maybe someone ought to be buying up a few creeks and highways"
Is that someone you? The FS does not have the budget or mission for lands other than FS land, nor do they have the power to close state highways. If you personally plan to restore the species and get it taken off the endangered species list, that would be awesome. Until then, especially since they lost the lawsuit, the FS will likely be taking all due caution to protect the species in their validated natural locations.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Apr 14, 2017 - 03:26pm PT
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When they closed down a crag in Los Angeles
I did not give a sh#t, cause its not the place where I climb at.
When they made Heller Rock into wilderness, and closed it, I did not give a crap cause I have already been their done that.
So, King Tut, drjefe, Gary, healyje, 10b, Ed, donini, timip, curt, Jim B, randisi..... when THEY come and close down your favorite climbing place....
Please do not ask me to give a crap...
Giving good information and recommendations to people who are motivated (yet uninformed) is actually an attempt to be helpful--and hardly demonstrative of "not giving a crap." By the way, "they" HAVE come to close my favorite local climbing area and I have been actively fighting this potential closure since 2004.
Curt
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Apr 14, 2017 - 03:29pm PT
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I wouldn't say Williamson is unimportant. It is the best summer sport area for 20 million people, and the most significant crag in the entire Angeles National Forest. It's not the role of the ANF to tell you to drive 7-9 hours from San Diego to the Sierra. National Forest is supposed to be for multiple purposes, recreation being one of them. If it's not important, then neither is any route in the Sierra, since there are bigger more impressive routes in Pakistan.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 14, 2017 - 05:44pm PT
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The Peregrines were introduced to the Chief in the 70's as a refuge for breeding while their populations elsewhere were being decimated due to thin egg shells brought on by DDT poisoning.
The odds it wasn't a reintroduction of Peregrines to Squamish are zero given their historic natural range extended all along the west coast of Canada on up through the Arctic and across the whole of Alaska and northern Canada.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 15, 2017 - 10:03am PT
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interesting that the Peregrine pops up here...
and an interesting "controversy" concerning Squamish...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peale%27s_falcon
...quite likely that, historically, the falcons found better hunting elsewhere. The source literature isn't easy to access via modern methods. Beebe would be an interesting reference to find... here it is: THE MARINE PEREGRINES OF THE NORTHWEST PACIFIC COAST, this and subsequent description of the range show an interesting lacuna between the F. p. pealei and F. p. anatum along a strip in which Squamish is located. (see also Fig. 2 in Washington State Status Report Washington State Status Report for the Peregrine Falcon)
In a 1969 review of the proceedings of the 1965 conference about the decline of the Peregrine falcon population, George Lowery Jr. wrote in the closing paragraph:
"It has been said that man has never been know to avoid catastrophe—he devotes all of his energies to recovering from one catastrophe or another. What must be produced to awaken our population to our environmental pollution and contamination!"
That was nearly 50 years ago... but it seems so unfortunately relevant today.
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TLP
climber
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Apr 15, 2017 - 10:52am PT
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Skimming all the posts here, I perceive this summary:
1. A significant portion (30%?) of the SoCal population of a listed frog species occurs in a creek.
2. USFS has closed access to a climbing area due to a reasonable concern (supported by a biologist's statement, quoted above, and probably a fair amount of other evidence) that adverse impacts on this population might result from human/dog access, erosion, etc.
3. Some climbers, maybe a lot of them, feel that the closed crag is an important climbing resource and its recreational use is compatible with the management directive of National Forests.
As a total outsider to both sides of this, it sure seems like a situation that is tailor made for a creative solution that would take a lot less energy than unproductive ranting. Is there really no other conceivable access route that doesn't pose any threat, even a minute one, to creek water quality? If there are really that many climbers that are that motivated, a totally new trail could easily be built. Is it really biologically reasonable to say that climbers around the back side of a rock have some magical impact on frogs that can't even see them? There's certainly a useful compromise out there somewhere, but just butting heads legally doesn't do any good except for lawyers' bank accounts.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Apr 15, 2017 - 11:26am PT
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Thanks for posting Tony, I wasn't familiar with the CBD. Thanks to you I've discovered they're a pretty nifty org. Look at all the things they're trying to work on:
Get Lead Shot Out of Minnesota
End New Fracking in Nevada
Save Florida's Pine Rocklands
Protect Whales From Crab Traps
Speak Up for Oregon's Wolves
Tell Congress: Don't Sell Out Our Wolves, Public Lands
Protect Oregon Rivers From Destructive Dredge Mining
Rein in Off-road Recklessness in California
End Trapping of Rare Bobcats of Illinois
Say No to State-funded Slaughter of Oregon's Wildlife
Get Toxic Lead Out of Illinois State Parks
Help Nevada Lead the Way in Renewable Energy
Tell the EPA to Regulate Factory Farms
Stop Mojave Desert Water Grab
Save the Vaquita -- Boycott Mexican Shrimp
End Trophy Hunting of Nebraska's Rare Cougars
Speak Up for North Cascades Grizzly Bears
Speak Up for Endangered Cook Inlet Beluga Whales
Get Toxic Lead Out of Deer Shot in Minnesota
Defend Texas and Oklahoma From More Fracking
Tell Ohio to Ban Commercial Turtle Trapping
Protect Appalachia From Mountaintop Removal
Protect California's Aquifers From Toxic Oil Waste
BLM's Methane Rule Is Under Attack -- Take Action
Tell Rep. Pearce: No Border Wall in New Mexico
Stand in Solidarity Against the Dakota Access Pipeline
Protect Monterey County's Water From Toxic Oil Waste
Speak Up for California Wolves
Protect Minnesota's Boundary Waters From Copper Mining
Wyoming: Help Stop This Anti-renewables Bill
Help Save Oregon's Elliott State Forest
Tell Congress: Don't Mess With Wolf Recovery
Demand a Stop to Attacks on Women and Wildlife
Protect Alameda County's Water From Toxic Oil Waste
Pledge of Resistance to Donald Trump's Assault on America's Environment, Democracy and Civil Rights
Tell Missouri to Stop Unlimited For-profit Turtle Trapping
End Phosphate Strip Mining in Florida
Tell Gov. Brown: Stop Watering California Crops With Oil Wastewater
Don't Make This Tortoise Wait Any Longer
Tell USDA to Promote Sustainable Diets
End Commercial Fur Trapping in California
Tell Amazon to Shine With Rooftop Solar
Protect California's Drinking Water From Toxic Oil Waste
Demand Greener Menus From World's Largest Restaurant Company
No More Toxic Pesticides in Minneapolis Parks
Revoke the Army Corps' License to Kill Cormorants
Bring Back the Bears
Calling All Youth: Take Action for the Wild
Tell EPA: Our Ocean's Not a Dump for Fracking
Save Monarch Butterflies
Tell Walmart Developer: Stop Building on Priceless Habitat
Stop Tar Sands Extraction in Utah
Tell McDonald's: Billions of Burgers Are Bad for Our Future
Clean the Air and Save the Climate in Your Community
Pledge to Take Extinction Off Your Plate
Don't Let Big Oil Frack California's Coast
Ban the Big, Bad Bullfrog
Stop Catching Wild Turtles for Turtle Races
Gov. Brown: Don't Frack California
Protect Corals, Fish and Sea Turtles From Ocean Acidification
Change Rattlesnake Roundups to Humane Festivals
Take the Pledge: Join the Bluefin Boycott
People's Petition to Cap Carbon Dioxide Pollution at 350 Parts Per Million
Join the Fight to Save Okinawa Dugongs
All that, one of the highest ratings in Charity Navigator, and tax deductible too. So glad I could join the ranks of Rich Lady who saves feral cats. LOL.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Apr 16, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
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OMG Canyoncat, you wanna ban everything . How the heck do you make a living? You drive SUV? Whassup?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2017 - 06:05am PT
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a couple of experiences this past weekend serve to confirm my opinion about the bad science involved in this sort of environmental management.
saturday i was at johnny carson park in burbank, a nice little patch of green in the heart of the media district, in the midst of tall buildings, the sprawling st. joseph's medical center and right next to the busy 134 freeway. and we looked up and found nesting peregrines high in a sycamore at the east edge of the park. they were quite busy coming and going, probably tending to falconlets. a pleasure to watch. if you live around here, go see for yourself. they aren't about to leave.
they had a falcon cam going a few years ago on the cuppola of the san jose city hall. the birds were able to tolerate close proximity to the most repugnant subspecies of all homo sapiens: politicians.
really--don't you think it's time to stop fretting about peregrines? if you've ever been on a climbing lead which strays across a falcon's comfort zone, you soon learn where the line is being drawn.
sunday i spent the day at bolsa chica state beach in orange county. i went across busy pacific coast highway a couple times for the birdwatching at the bolsa itself, a monument to REAL environmental activism, saved from development into a marina during the 1970s. it is now the happy home to many species, including four types of birds and a plant "teetering on the edge of extinction," according to the interpretive signs.
bolsa chica is almost pathetic, if you really love nature. the suburbs surround it, dense and practically down to the water's edge. a huge oil pumping operation is grandfathered in. the public is restricted to several walkways, but the nesting birds share the peninsulas and islands with the pumps and the trucks and people who service them.
doesn't stop nature. NATURE IS RESILIENT. it doesn't mind people or pumps if it's given what it needs to eat and breed. a delicate california least tern, one of the endangered four, was perched on the rail of the walkway and didn't even fly off when i walked by, passing within four feet of it, getting a much better look than my binoculars could afford.
the little birdies told me to set you folks straight.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 17, 2017 - 06:18am PT
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Straight up, Tony.
JLP said:
1. A significant portion (30%?) of the SoCal population of a listed frog species occurs in a creek.
Well, this is totally debatable. As was posted up thread, a biologist said to a personal friend whom I trust very much--i.e. not a BS'er--that the fire and drought had killed off the NINE frogs left there. The other issue here, and almost certainly true, is that the frog persists in one of the many thousands of drainages that the biologists are too lazy to inspect. The Williamson creek was too easy to lock off because it is so easy to get to. As was mentioned up thread, the Angeles Crest is so rugged, it may have some of the least traveled terrain in California--and therefore the most protective of the frogs that lurk there.
BAd
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 17, 2017 - 06:28am PT
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nature is so resilient that it took the labors of thousands and the tax dollars of millions to bring peregrines back to solid footing in this country. you will notice that the birds co-exist with pumpjacks and human encroachment. do you notice that the birds do not coexist with a "crucially important" compound, DDT? why might that be?
if you cannot understand the history behind the current population of peregrine falcons in the USA, of course you do not understand the logic for protecting a group of stupid yucky frogs.
all this talk about socal rock, and here we are with folks unable to live without a sacrificial cow.
and BAd, could you support any of those claims with anything besides, "people are saying"? I mean, I feel that skip can be trusted, yet the statement reeks of a certain small-handed carotenoid.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 17, 2017 - 07:00am PT
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Generations of scientists have it all wrong. Expensive research is worthless, all they needed to do was go on a Sunday drive. This is yuuuuge!
Looks like a permit system might be in the works
https://www.accessfund.org/news-and-events/news/progress-on-southern-californias-williamson-rock-closure
The USFS is studying four alternatives to reopening rock climbing access at Williamson Rock. The preferred alternative proposes seasonal raptor closures and a visitor-use permit system that would allow 90 permitted climbers per day to access Williamson Rock (outside of seasonal raptor closures).
Once the USFS releases its draft EIS this fall, there will be a 45-day public comment period for climbers to review the proposed alternatives and submit feedback. We will send an Action Alert when the comment period opens, so stay tuned. According to the project schedule, a final decision could be reached as soon as spring 2018, with the possibility of permitted climbing access at Williamson Rock soon after.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 17, 2017 - 07:17am PT
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really--don't you think it's time to stop fretting about peregrines?
No
sundae i spent the day at bolsa chica state beach in orange county. i went across busy pacific coast highway a couple times for the birdwatching at the bolsa itself, a monument to REAL environmental activism, saved from development into a marina during the 1970s. it is now the happy home to many species, including four types of birds and a plant "teetering on the edge of extinction," according to the interpretive signs.
bolsa chica is almost pathetic, if you really love nature. the suburbs surround it, dense and practically down to the water's edge. a huge oil pumping operation is grandfathered in. the public is restricted to several walkways, but the nesting birds share the peninsulas and islands with the pumps and the trucks and people who service them.
doesn't stop nature. NATURE IS RESILIENT. it doesn't mind people or pumps if it's given what it needs to eat and breed. a delicate california least tern, one of the endangered four, was perched on the rail of the walkway and didn't even fly off when i walked by, passing within four feet of it, getting a much better look than my binoculars could afford.
Yeah, let's develop the hell out if everything.
Man, you just don't get it.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 17, 2017 - 07:36am PT
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At the turn of the 20th century many animal populations in the US were a fraction of what they are now. Fortunately a growing environmental movement was aided by new State and Federal regulations with teeth. ENFORCEMENT of game laws and the absolute protection of critically endangered species was key to the realitivly abundant bio diversity we enjoy today.
I travel worldwide and I am always reminded of the abundance of wildlife sightings we enjoy relative to nearly every other country.
Sure there are some regulations and closures meant to protect species that may strain credulity but that is the price you pay. It is far better than the era of no or lax regulations that led to vast reductions of animal populations and the extinction or near extinction of many species.
If wildlife closures that effect the places you play seem wrong to you, work locally to change them but please respect and support the overall attitude this country has about conservation.....we our world leaders in that area and should be proud of it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2017 - 09:13am PT
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not so well-traveled as you, jim, but i noted some differences in the other direction when i used to go down to friends in northern baja for climbing and real mexican food. i saw things commonly there that you don't see much of north of the border, notably golden eagles. why? i suggest it's because you don't have the sort of sterilizing suburban development which suburbanites in this country seem to need. you'll never hear any of our environmental organizations address that one.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 17, 2017 - 09:25am PT
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while the Peregrine has been "delisted" from the endangered species list, the manner in which the species was "brought back" is controversial, and this is relevant to the discussion of the MYLF. From the wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrine_falcon
"Some controversy has existed over the origins of captive breeding stock used by The Peregrine Fund in the recovery of peregrine falcons throughout the contiguous United States. Several peregrine subspecies were included in the breeding stock, including birds of Eurasian origin. Due to the extirpation of the eastern anatum (Falco peregrinus anatum), the near extirpation of the anatum in the Midwest, and the limited gene pool within North American breeding stock, the inclusion of non-native subspecies was justified to optimize the genetic diversity found within the species as a whole.[81]"
The Peregrine falcon we delight in seeing in the skies at our climbing crags is not the one that existed prior to the catastrophic die off due to DDT use and human incursions (including the extinction of major falcon prey, e.g. the Passenger Pigeon).
While this may seem a trivial point, biologists and ecologists all recognize the importance of maintaining local genetic variants of species and point to the important role of genetic diversity in species for species continuance. Part of this is cautionary, that is, the exact role of genetic diversity in the practical aspects of species management has not been worked out. This is balanced against the fact that once these sub-populations are eliminated, nothing more can be done, that gene pool is lost forever.
I had lived in LA for eight years, from 1964 to 1972, during a time of tremendous change. The house my family lived in was carved out of orange groves that lay at the foot of the San Gabriel Mountains. By 1966 all those groves were gone south of Baseline Rd., but my high school training runs along that road featured fresh citrus for breakfast... as far as I could tell, no one walked in those hills, a distance of perhaps 2 miles from my house.
I did... and the views from even those relatively low hills provided a stark view of how the valley below was changing. A relatively short hike took me up to the inversion layer, one could sight across the meteorological abstraction, blue sky above, smog below. The smog was controversial, then Governor Regan claimed that the LA Basin always had smog, the indians talked about it, so why should we worry about car exhaust?
It wasn't until decades later, with development straining the limits of room on the floor of that valley, the 210 bisecting that neighborhood I once walked around in, that I came upon the thought of LA as a plot from some 1950s science fiction story, a world "terra-formed" to be like a plush European landscape. This image came home to me while inspecting a condo my father was thinking of buying. It was located in Hemit, and as I wandered around in it, a print of some French artist's rendering of southern part of his country hung next to a window, the view was of the lush golf course which was terminated by a wall, beyond which lay a profound desert.
Humans had created an artifice, moving water hundreds of miles to nourish a landscape of their liking, in which their preferred species thrived, making some acceptable recreation possible during the local time of day when being in that environment was tolerable, the rest of the time spent in an artificially controlled environment.
While abundant life persisted, unrecognized, beyond that walled boundary separating what was acceptable to humans from what had existed prior to any human presence. What the humans saw as a "waste land" was the home of a diverse ecosystem incredibly adapted to persisting where humans would not, at least not on the terms of that environment.
At the root of many climbing controversies is this very point, do we try to get to the top by any means possible, or do we try to do so by adapting to the environment that we enter for no other purpose, really, than to wander around to get to some arbitrary goal, a topographical feature, usually the highest local point?
Early in the development of Yosemite climbing it was realized that we could always succeed on those formidable walls if we used any and all of the means we had to do so. Our reaction to the implications of that insight divide us today, as it did then. Writ larger, our approach to living in the world is also so informed.
Nature is resilient, we can use that as justification to walk with a heavy foot on the lands, to not worry about what we do, and to live a life we determine for ourselves. All this knowing that in the passing of our species, life will go on without us, and flourish until that time life cannot be sustained on the planet.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 17, 2017 - 09:31am PT
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When they made Heller Rock into wilderness, and closed it, I did not give a crap cause I have already been their done that.
Heller Rock is not closed to climbing. Guyman, a 30 minute hike isn't going to stop you from climbing is it?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 17, 2017 - 09:33am PT
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nice closing, Ed.
resilient and seemingly indifferent
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 17, 2017 - 09:54am PT
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It is a not uncommon claim that the "lazy biologists" don't know the location of all the individuals of a particular species-of-concern, and that the population is much larger than the surveys indicate.
This accusation was leveled at the marine biologists studying the North Atlantic Cod, by the fishermen whose lives depended on fishing that species. It turns out the biologists were right, and the possibility of continued, albeit very restricted, fishing is gone, the fish are not there, they were fished out of existence by the very people who depended on them for their livelihood. It seems obvious in retrospect that the fishermen's estimate was biased by their interest in the outcome of that issue. The biologists, on the other hand, understood the limits of their survey methodology and acceded to the possibility that the populations might be larger than the estimates... at least up to a point. In retrospect, they should have stuck to their guns on the matter, as their survey methods became more sophisticated and their margin of uncertainty on the estimate decreased. During the same time, the fishermen's certainty that the biologists were wrong never wavered, even as the greatly reduced catches put them out of business, one boat at at time.
While the accusation that the CBD is some predatory organization made up of lawyers getting rich off the government is popular in some quarters (even though they are largely supported by the members of the organization), they also have very good biology to bring to bear in their legal pursuits. The petition for listing the MYLF as an endangered species contains the best summary of the species' status (as recognized by the many governmental organizations that have a relevant interest in the matter, Cal Fire being one):
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/species/amphibians/Sierra_Nevada_mountain_yellow-legged_frog/pdfs/2010-1-25_MYLF_CESA_petition%20.pdf
Given the weight of the evidence, it is clear that the "Williamson Rock" MYLF population is significant if only that it is one of the last remaining in SoCal, and that finding is well documented. Not only that, but the fact that, since the closure, the numbers of frogs has greatly increased, lends credence to the assumptions that warranted the closure.
It seems obvious that if there is to be climbing access at Williamson Rock, it will be dictated by the requirements to manage the MYLF.
It would also seem that if climbing at Williamson Rock is as spectacular as reported by some on this thread, that following the management rules will be well worth the climbing there.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Apr 17, 2017 - 11:49am PT
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a delicate california least tern, one of the endangered four, was perched on the rail of the walkway and didn't even fly off when i walked by, passing within four feet of it
You wouldn't have seen that Least Tern if it wasn't protected and expensive beach front property was fenced off to allow them to breed in their natural habitat.
The fact that they aren't afraid of you is a liability that species has that will make sure that they are the first to be killed off by hunters, correct?
Hey Tony
good to have you back
sorry that your on the wrong side once again
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 17, 2017 - 01:30pm PT
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Given the weight of the evidence, it is clear that the "Williamson Rock" MYLF population is significant if only that it is one of the last remaining in SoCal, and that finding is well documented. Not only that, but the fact that, since the closure, the numbers of frogs has greatly increased, lends credence to the assumptions that warranted the closure.
I commented about this finding earlier. Stating that the frogs at Williamson are among the last, and that this finding is well documented, ignores the fact that no one has even tried to determine what their population is across the rest of the range. The San Gabriel's encompass a lot of terrain, most of which is inaccessible.
I'm not saying the Williamson frogs are entirely irrelevant, just that the data is largely incomplete.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Apr 17, 2017 - 02:02pm PT
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One of the links Ed posted is actually a quite comprehensive survey of 150 possible locations. A huge amount of work.
https://www.werc.usgs.gov/ProductDetails.aspx?ID=4999
Released: 2013
Backlin, AR, CJ Hitchcock, EA Gallegos, JL Yee, and RN Fisher. 2013. The precarious persistence of the Endangered Sierra Madre yellow-legged frog Rana muscosa in southern California, USA. Oryx, 1-8. doi: 10.1017/S003060531300029X
"We conducted surveys for the Endangered Sierra Madre yellow-legged frog Rana muscosa throughout southern California to evaluate the current distribution and status of the species. Surveys were conducted during 2000–2009 at 150 unique streams and lakes within the San Gabriel, San Bernardino, San Jacinto, and Palomar mountains of southern California. Only nine small, geographically isolated populations were detected across the four mountain ranges, ..."
Another paper on genetic diversity is also interesting.
https://www.werc.usgs.gov/ProductDetails.aspx?ID=4415
Released: 2011
Schoville, S.D., T.S. Tustall, V.T. Vredenburg, A.R. Backlin, E.A. Gallegos, D.A. Wood, and R.N. Fisher. 2011. Conservation genetics of the evolutionary lineages of the endangered mountain yellow-legged frog, Rana muscosa (Amphibia: Ranidae), in southern California. Biological Conservation doi:10.1016/j.biocon.2011.04.025
Fig 3 shows a genetic tree.
Fig 4 shows the likely time frames of the genetic splits.
"Our analysis
suggests that population divergence between San Jacinto and San
Bernardino populations began near the end of last glacial stage
(47 KYBP), as gene flow was sufficiently reduced (2Nm 6 1) to
facilitate divergence due to genetic drift. The San Gabriel lineage
is estimated to have diverged from the combined San Jacinto-San
Bernardino lineage near the end of an earlier glacial stage (289
KYBP). Finally, the divergence of southern California populations
from the Sierra Nevada is estimated at 1.42 MYBP, occurring near
the end of an early Pleistocene glacial stage (Lisiecki and Raymo,
2005)..."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 17, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
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...ignores the fact that no one has even tried to determine what their population is across the rest of the range.
Splater responded to this, but I'd like to know why there is the persistent statement of this type in the discussion, especially as the surveys are well documented. Biologists know that they should look for the MYLF in its habitat, and the extensive modern mapping of the Earth, SoCal included, allows for the various streams that would be habitat to be identified, and targets for surveys.
You won't find the frog sitting on top of Mt. Baldy, most likely, but in the streams that drain that watershed, and others.
It might sound like common sense that it is not possible to have searched everywhere, but I believe the actuality is that more places have been searched than not at this point. If Ksolem (or anybody else) has evidence to the contrary it would be good to hear about it.
One of the first things for the survey methodology is to visit the places where MYLFs had been reported, and see if they were there...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 17, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
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I'm going to try to go through their list and find the locations where they found frogs. I'd also love to see where they didn't. Those no/go's are just a bunch of dots on the map showing general areas.
For now, as an example, #2 on the list is Little Rock Creek. This creek sources on Mt. Williamson, and after being joined by a lesser tributary, flows past Williamson Rock. So it's obvious why it's on the list.
Below Williamson Rock a trail follows the creek for a mile or so, albeit averaging from 100 to 400 ft above. Then this trail leaves the creek, heading up to Burkhart Saddle. Meanwhile Little Rock Creek makes a seven mile run through complete wilderness to Little Sycamore CG.
So again the question needs to be asked, did our researchers follow the creek down into the wilds, or count up the frogs right there at Williamson Rock and move on?
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 17, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
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I know for a fact that there is a huge MYLF population in the Upper Baker Creek drainage and Sanger Meadow area at Coyote Flat between Big Pine and Bishop. The population there seems to be thriving despite the road going through the creek in several places. The last time I was up there last summer there were literally hundreds along the bank in one pool below a small falls. A ranger I spoke with who I ran into on the drive out said the MYLF in that area is doing really well the population continues to grow.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 17, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
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It's hilarious how this 'kingtut' quasi-scientist doesn't know the difference between the rana muscosa and rana sierrae, yet spews forth his lack of intellect in a vain attempt at recognition.
Jim Donini has a clear perception of true conservation.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 17, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
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Here are the surveyed points on top of the Google Earth map from Backlin et al.
the methodology seemed to be to walk down stream from the 500 to 1000 m from the five sites that have MYLF populations (the squares).
at Big Rock Creek they walked both sides of the forked wash
other longer creeks they sampled along some distance
in general, they don't release the detailed locations of the surveys to the general public (I reduced the data from their paper, with some inaccuracies, but close enough to find the creeks they walked).
There are two survey locations in the vicinity of my childhood adventures... and one in Tony's Golf Course.
Presumably many of these points are locations where MYLF were found in the past.
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Apr 17, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
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'Kingtut' is an angry has-been-climber....a proven now-adays-intardnet-clown. KT stinks like a brewed fart
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Apr 17, 2017 - 09:01pm PT
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Is that really the best you can do lol?
Is there need for more?
Yur a clown.
Looking forward to yur
W...O...Bs
Certified liar
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 17, 2017 - 09:15pm PT
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kingtut,
I dont understand your response?? I was just stating a fact that they are doing well on Upper Baker Creek. Thats good.
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TLP
climber
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Apr 17, 2017 - 09:22pm PT
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Summary #2. Much shorter.
1. Ed H provides very substantial summary, and citations to excellent papers, showing that R. muscosa is restricted to a small number of populations in So. Cal. The science looks really solid. There's some correlation between population rebound and closure, but I don't see that there's necessarily a causal relationship. That needs more thought, and consideration of what other factors might have coincided in time. So, semi-solid to hypothetical science there.
2. A bunch of other posters rant away that it can't be so, for one or another weak reason. Pretty much zero scientific basis for a contrary position.
As a regulator, I'd conclude there's no point wasting my time talking to faction #2 and just call it closed and that's that.
Anybody who truly hopes to get the rock opened to some climbing needs to accept #1, stop sounding like a jerk, and come up with feasible measures that combine access with a scientifically sound rationale for how a rerouted trail or whatever else would actually prevent impacts on the frog population. Otherwise, just forget it and keep flaming away in childish tantrums. Easy!
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Apr 17, 2017 - 09:22pm PT
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KT is an ego-maniac
KT has little-to-nothing(value) to add to a climbing conversation
KT is a standard drunk has-been
Sober-up KT
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Apr 17, 2017 - 09:28pm PT
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^^^ Ha ha!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2017 - 04:15am PT
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one FS biologist i talked to tried to tell me that, yes, although the MYLF range is quite extensive, the localized populations, such as we have at williamson, begin to differentiate and eventually evolve into separate species. the implication was, wow, suddenly we're gonna have a rare species here (well, almost, not quite yet, but it's happening) and that'll REALLY need protection.
kinda reminded me of the night kobe bryant was stopped in downtown l.a. for driving his ferrari. the license plates were "almost" expired.
this issue is scientifically quite complex and i don't think that the science itself has evolved into much sophistication. but, as usual, scientists think they know it all and it seems here they're crossing the line into dictation of policy, not merely recommendation.
ed raises a point which i think might be the key. in order to breed the peregrines back from a small population, other falcon blood was mixed in. i believe the same thing was done with the california condor, bringing in andean condors. i guess someone decided that was necessary, but "gene pool" is a pretty squiggly concept. weren't the buffalos bred back WITHOUT bringing other strains in? and what kind of freaky frogs are we going to get at williamson, as they incestuously reproduce from that small number?
yes, i think every species is precious too, but you have to acknowledge that extinction--and new species generation--is a natural process involving the same basic DNA. the "new ideas" come from WITHIN that DNA. the inheritance from the past is wonderful and beautiful, but you can't stop change.
we like to beat our breasts and say it's all "our" fault that bad things are happening, but the condor offers a good reminder that it isn't. if you want to understand the condor, go the page museum at the la brea tar pits in l.a. the menagerie is amazing--giant ground sloths, new world camels, big beasts you couldn't imagine, as well as their fearsome predators--smilodon, dire wolf, the huge, nasty short-faced bear. and among all this, as populous as crows, the california condor. that big carrion factory disappeared when the wisconsin glacier, a mile thick only a few thousand years ago, melted into the great lakes.
condors are magnificant and i hope they stay "saved". but the dominant large animal is now the cow, and farmers and ranchers devote their lives to insuring that they seldom become carrion. THAT'S where changes have to take place if you want biodiversity.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Apr 19, 2017 - 08:19am PT
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i believe the same thing was done with the california condor, bringing in andean condors. not true, pure speculation with seemingly zero knowledge of the subject matter
or in other words.... WRONG
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 19, 2017 - 08:30am PT
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policy is developed using science as an input, I don't see scientists "dictating" anything in this matter, but rather providing the best research results to inform the policy decisions.
In this case, it isn't so much policy as abiding by written law, which was the result of a policy decision quite a while ago to preserve wild habitat, habitat rapidly disappearing. When I look at that map I posted above I am amazed at how small the San Gabriels look now, circumscribed by major highways, and populations growing on all sides, very different than when I lived there and it all seemed so large a wilderness.
The displacement of large wild animals with domesticated animals is stunningly complete...
it is hard to reconcile that with the idea that humans don't have a major effect on determining the planet Earth's life, at least at the large scale, and human activity is responsible for changing it at smaller scales too, from nitrogen release and its affect on the "micro-biome" to the many climate change related effects reducing the refugios that species like the MYLF adapted to after the last ice age.
In the US, we can see our desire to get everywhere by motor vehicle has fragmented the land, here an estimate of the area of roadless patches...
not much... "yellow" on this scale is a 50km x 50km square... (31 miles x 31 miles)... more likely to find a road in the San Gabriels than a frog.
If you look at that survey map up thread, putting 2 frogs at each of those historic places would equal the estimated total number of frogs in that range... and that would not be a viable, reproducing population.
We, humans, can make a choice, our choices of where to climb do not affect our ability to survive, either individually or as a species. The MYLF has no such choice... some posts to this thread, see Chaz's for example, blames the MYLF for not being able to adapt to human incursions rapidly enough to survive; and so no human is to blame for this incompetent species' extinction.
So if one values what little "wild" is left in the US, and these values are at least partially enshrined in the law of the land, one wonders about those who argue for an outcome that, to the best of our informed science, would lead to the very likely extinction of this species is a better choice than restricting access to an area for our recreational activity.
Maybe a permitting system could work for Williamson Rock, that is what seems to be on the table, restricting access most of the year and allowing no more than 90 permits per day during the "opened" period. And contingent on the MYLF response. That seems to be the possible resolution.
Is this "dictating by scientists"?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 19, 2017 - 08:42am PT
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Dr Hartouni writes:
"... some posts to this thread, see Chaz's for example, blames the MYLF for not being able to adapt to human incursions rapidly enough to survive; and so no human is to blame for this incompetent species' extinction."
You either misread or misunderstood what I wrote. Either accidentally, or on purpose.
My beef's not with the frog.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 19, 2017 - 08:47am PT
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Ed,
Can you describe the factual evidence of human's harm to the MYLF population at Williamson?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 19, 2017 - 08:58am PT
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Historically the MYLF occupied the San Gabriels in numbers that sustained its population... as humans began to occupy this range the numbers of MYLF decreased precipitously. Recently, exclusion of human access to Williamson Rock area was followed by an increase of the MYLF population in proximity to area.
Certainly if there is a connection between human activity and MYLF populations, the exclusions of human access would be followed by a rebounding population.
There are certainly alternative explanations. However, practically, we tend to continue to do things that result in the desired outcome even without a detailed explanation of why we are getting that outcome. The Angeles National Forest was compelled to consider the protection of the MYLF as a "desired outcome," and the fact that the MYLF population increased after the climbing ban suggests that sustaining the MYLF population increase by continuing the ban is a sensible action.
I don't think this is rocket science.
There are many sound science explanations that describe the affect of habitat degradation by human activity on species dependent on that habitat.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 19, 2017 - 09:26am PT
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The Angeles National Forest was compelled to consider the protection of the MYLF as a "desired outcome," and the fact that the MYLF population increased after the climbing ban suggests that sustaining the MYLF population increase by continuing the ban is a sensible action.
Don't kid yourself.
The closure had nothing to do with conservation.
It was political.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Apr 19, 2017 - 09:58am PT
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^^^ agreed^^
It's a cult of hate against any science that doesn't suit their selfish greed,
or their cult leaders moneyed interests
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 19, 2017 - 10:12am PT
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Craig,
It's not "science" when a group of pseudo hippy lawyers based in another state (thus avoiding California business taxes) sues the federal government for their agenda and the feds buckle to this pressure.
This same group wants to reintroduce Grizzly bears to California.
Basically blackmail and political leveraging by a special interest group.
WR is just an example of this.
kingtut,
I only wish to meet you one day so I can tell you to your face what a chickenshit you are.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 19, 2017 - 10:17am PT
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you'd think that this would be an easy argument: convincing climber to support climbing access to a nice rock climbing area.
nobody really likes listening to a petulant crank with koolaid stains all over his lips though.
pud, have you considered that you may actually do more damage to this cause than you help?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 19, 2017 - 10:21am PT
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thebravecowboy.
Just how brave are you?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 19, 2017 - 11:49am PT
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Oh Pud! You are right! I fail to meet my moniker so fully as you do yours.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 19, 2017 - 12:40pm PT
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Quit acting like an off-roader Pud, it is hurting the cause.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 19, 2017 - 12:53pm PT
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But are there any frogs left after these years of drought then the fire? Are yearly surveys made? If the frogs are indeed gone from this area, what is the rationale for keeping Williamson closed? It would seem the only possible argument in this case is that the frogs might return. If this becomes the standard, then ANY history of use--no matter how outdated--could be used to close vast tracks of cliff and trail. Could be coming to a cliff near you.
BAd
Oh, PS: Consider the many decades of seasonal closure to that other high altitude Williamson LONG after the sheep had departed. Oh well....
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 19, 2017 - 02:37pm PT
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If any of you self righteous "brave cowboys" want to meet and see if you still have the balls to talk sh#t to me in person. I'm down. I'm totally serious.
Otherwise, you cowards stay behind your keyboards where you're safe and keep talking sh#t.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Apr 19, 2017 - 03:36pm PT
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Frogs are most definitely there and their range and numbers in Little Rock Creek (Williamson Rock area) has significantly increased over the last 10 years.
Based upon a first-hand report from the lead scientists in charge, at the time of the closure, this particular population was down to about a dozen specimens, confined largely to pools slightly upstream and down to the base of Williamson Rock (a range of a few hundred meters at most).
Non-native fish are implicated as the number 1 (not necessarily the only) cause for the tiny and confined population. Over the intervening years, a series of fish barriers were installed down-stream and labor intensive killing off (electric shock) of all fish above the barriers was undertaken.
Today, I was told, there are up to perhaps 200 MYLFs in a range of a couple kilometers. There are plans to further extend the MYLF's range (in this creek) by installing further fish barriers and removing the fish. In theory, the frogs could extend their numbers into their historic range of down to about the 3,000 foot elevation (a number of miles).
In addition to the Williamson population, another population was found in another remote canyon in the San Gabriel Wilderness. Recently, that entire population was wiped out by the Chytrid fungus. Fires and mud slides in the San Bernadino Mts. wiped out another population a few years back.
The idea that the Scientists studying the MYLF are just too lazy to search other remote canyons where other populations may be hiding is just more misinformation - along with a lot other unfounded speculation - that has been posted in this thread.
As someone who once climbed at Williamson as much (or more) than others, it has been discouraging that potentially getting the area (partially) re-opened has taken so long. Welcome to the real world folks. Bluster and rants don't move the needle at all (or if they do, certainly in the wrong direction).
An EIS has finally been begun (lack of funding stalled the effort for years) and is expected to be done in the Fall of 2018. At that time, there may be a decision by the USFS on the proposal to allow limited and managed access to Williamson. There may be opposition from some groups. But, there will be actual science in the EIS from which a decision to close or open can be based - something that has not existed previously.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 19, 2017 - 03:46pm PT
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I would happily make my views clear to you in person pud, though I suspect that our shared humanity might make for less lively conversation. I think I'd prefer not to put a face on a "pud" anyway.
If you would like to throw some 'bows over your representation of our recreational group then maybe you will consider just what it is that is making you so angry. surely you don't want to punch me over some frogs that got your crag shut down; or maybe, you do want to punch me over the frogs that got your crag shut down. Given your level of discourse and rhetoric about environmental governance, scientific research, and endangered species, I suspect the latter. You may be sorely disappointed to see the fruits of your frothing, misplaced anger. I am, after all, a turd level brown belt in kung poo.
Good day to you sir, and try not to let the frogs stick in your craw.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Apr 19, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
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This has been mostly a good read. I'm aligned with what Donini said. I love nature and feel strongly about preserving it. I also want to see Williamson reopen to climbing.
I don't support the AF and think they and FOWR dropped the ball on this. I think there should have been a shitstorm on this right away but we were told to stand down and not contact anybody and just work through FOWR (and AF). In the urban planning/developer world that I deal with a lot, that's always a bad idea and never works. And as far as the science goes, you can usually find an "expert" to say things that support what you want. There's plenty of examples of this around. The climber groups should have done this a long time ago.
But what the hell do I know? I'm no expert on any of this.
I frequent an area in the ANF 2-3 times a month for the last 5 years. It's a large, very dry drainage with a dry creek at the bottom. In 5 years I have never seen as much as a puddle in it. This year there's been a good flowing creek and right away I started hearing frogs at dusk and saw some hopping about. Now just a rivulet is left but it's full of thousands of tadpoles. I'm not saying these are MYLF's, but it's mindblowing that some frog has hung on in all this dryness for so long and just exploded. Reminds me of the little shrimp out in Josh that come to life in the huecos.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 19, 2017 - 04:15pm PT
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I don't support the AF and think they ... dropped the ball on this.
They didn't.
I think there should have been a shitstorm on this right away...
Would have made zip.zero difference - climbing is a small component of recreational use in the covered area and broad 'recreational use' was the policy level they were operating at initially.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 19, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
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Don't kid yourself.
The closure had nothing to do with conservation.
It was political.
I think it was both "political" and had everything to do with conservation. The ANF had a use plan that didn't address the MYLF conservation, the CBD, Sierra Club, CNPS, ForestWatch brought a suit against the USFS and won, the suit had to do with the issue of MYLF conservation.
The "politics" has to do with the degree of latitude the USFS has in creating their use plan, the various stakeholders in that plan, and the ability of various organizations to affect the outcome. The climbers are not the only stakeholders. The political aspect involves coming to a solution that is acceptable to all the stakeholders, and if not that, those stakeholders that have the ability to assert a claim with priority.
The climbing access is a part of the motivation to have an EIS that includes limited access for climbing to Williamson Rock, and satisfies the requirement that the USFS/ANF conserve the endangered MYLF...
...that's how it works.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 19, 2017 - 05:38pm PT
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You clowns have got to realize that any serious climber puts Falcons and Frogs et al well above sport wanking by some LA weenies. We support science based conservation measures for any and every endangered species population wherever it may be found. Such species are vastly more important than (any) rock climbing that is nothing more than a first world idle diversion that contributes nothing to this Earth despite our own decades long obsession with the sport.
right on!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 19, 2017 - 05:42pm PT
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this issue is scientifically quite complex and i don't think that the science itself has evolved into much sophistication. but, as usual, scientists think they know it all and it seems here they're crossing the line into dictation of policy, not merely recommendation.
Tony, I'm afraid that you have fallen for the same thing of which you accuse others.
You state thing with certainty, although you do not support your statements.
Who (give a specific example and name) is this scientist which is dictating policy, instead of making recommendations? You've stated the "fact", so you must know the specifics to make such a statement.
On the other hand:
condors are magnificant and i hope they stay "saved". but the dominant large animal is now the cow, and farmers and ranchers devote their lives to insuring that they seldom become carrion. THAT'S where changes have to take place if you want biodiversity.
is quite insightful, as loss of habitat is what most species find challenging.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2017 - 10:19am PT
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when williamson was first closed, i was told there were five "holdout" locations in southern california mountain streams. they were supposedly gone from down on mt. palomar. as i remember (i do have to go on an admittedly aging memory on a lot of this, but part of the reason for posting on a forum is that you get corrected--and often over-corrected) williamson was the only location in the san gabriels. i think there were a couple in the san bernardinos and someone mentioned lake fulmer, on the way to idyllwild. now it seems they've found another in the san gabriels. have they been all the way down devils slide and into the upper san gabriel river drainages? how about that tiny riparian nook off the echo mountain trail? as ksolem said, there are LOTS of nooks and crannies, and many of them stay wet.
my big beef here, however, is how the scientists-in-charge sit on their precious information. you have to pull teeth to get it out of them, as though i might be some kind of frog ax-murderer who will go out and whackafrog every place i can. THAT'S the problem with science in every issue like this one.
a big aspect of the MYLF is how it survives drought. can any of you address that? i think little rock creek is a pretty pathetic trout fishing destination these days. i think it gets dry enough to burn out all trout and pollywogs, but we've got a wet (actually, more historically "normal" than "wet") year this year and that will change.
i went to horse flats sometime before the last drought cycle. it was early and for the first time in years i saw water in the little creek that flows through there. and in one of the stagnant pools: tadpoles.
i'm not attacking any of the scientists who post here personally, and ed's access to so much scholarship has always been welcome, though i've seldom waded through very much of it. i tend to birddog what i'm interested in, and i did that on the williamson issue and i did not like the way people kept hedging on it.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 20, 2017 - 01:45pm PT
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If you would like to throw some 'bows over your representation of our recreational group then maybe you will consider just what it is that is making you so angry. surely you don't want to punch me over some frogs that got your crag shut down
Dude,
Nothing I read here ever makes me angry. Laugh, smile, roll my eyes maybe, but never angry. I simply stated that some of the more rude and vulgar folks on this thread would likely be much more polite in person.
I don't ever recall climbers talking to each other the way the folks do here. I am sure I would not associate with a group that did.
Lately, the 'newer' folks to this site have me wondering why I come here and I think perhaps that may be a sign that it is time for me to leave.
kingtut is likely a mild mannered student that likes to pretend.
That's ok, as long as he realizes that in reality, there are consequences when one chooses to insult others.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 20, 2017 - 02:52pm PT
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frogs > climbers
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 20, 2017 - 02:58pm PT
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Tut,
You're the rude thug.
You talk sh#t all day knowing you'll never have to deal with the consequences because you are safe behind a keyboard.
It's ok, time wounds all heels.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 20, 2017 - 03:50pm PT
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my big beef here, however, is how the scientists-in-charge sit on their precious information. you have to pull teeth to get it out of them, as though i might be some kind of frog ax-murderer who will go out and whackafrog every place i can. THAT'S the problem with science in every issue like this one.
You have to realize, which you may not, that in many of the forums I've read on this and similar subjects, that is exactly what climbers have suggested might be the best strategy: kill all the frogs. THAT'S a problem in every issue like this one.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 20, 2017 - 04:34pm PT
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I never threatened violence Kingtut. A lying POS like yourself may say that, but cannot prove it.
Kingtut obvioulsey has an inferiority complex and begs for attention the only way he knows how.
To pretend to be something he is not.
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Apr 20, 2017 - 04:36pm PT
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Dude is like a coiled snake...
All coiled up. Maybe this is KingCoiler? Smells like it ;-)
Happy 420!!
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 20, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
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Adios
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