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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Feb 27, 2017 - 05:21pm PT
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Drljefe,
So why was the grom on Half Dome waaaaay more impressive to you?
Curious.
I'm really not sure....I just remember being floored by it. Kind of arbitrary I suppose. She was way younger, not aiding, in alpine condish, and digging it. Her dad is a psycho, we all agree to that, but for some reason those ascents of hers on El Cap, HD and romping up 3rd pillar of Dana just took my breath away.
This one, just not doing it for me for the reasons stated up-thread. Basically another super skinny wicked strong, light young teen shredding a rad sport route.
Sounds calloused I guess, I'm just sharing how I feel. Stoked for her just not too "wowed."
My son on his RM85 ripping 80mph and flying through the air at 9 years old this weekend at a Pro track at Glen Helen blows my mind. My skinny little neighborhood girl climbing V11's at our local gym just doesn't do it for me.
Hard to figure out. What fickle fans we humans can be eh?
#proudDad
#fearlesskid
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 27, 2017 - 05:21pm PT
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Who said they're doing something different than us...like you keep asserting?
I think Mike Friedrichs or the Fet said that, if not in so many words at least by implication. And anyone who thinks that Margo's (very impressive) accomplishment is the result of some sort of superior focus or "stoke" or anything other than a superior ability to hang on small holds for prolonged periods.
And, most directly, this quote (from 2 people)
Kind of surprised no one seems to care.
Possibly because such feats are so beyond what most of us do that they seem abstract, unrelated, almost a different sport.
Also, I've seen Fred Nicole (at Hueco about 10 years ago), my recollection is that he looked very thin, maybe I'm misremembering or just saw what I was expecting. (I just checked some pics on the Internet too--he's not Dave Graham thin, but this notion that he's "big," at least by any typical American standard, seems pretty far fetched.)
Edit--the below post is the sort of nonsense I'm talking about. It's pretty much provably wrong (not completely, but almost). Read the profile about Magos by Trotter--Magos was campusing boulder problems at their gym that Trotter couldn't do (or could barely do, I don't recall). How much technique is there in campusing? (Some, I imagine).
I recall reading a short profile of a Russian bouldering competition champion--most of training was just pullups on small holds).
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Feb 27, 2017 - 05:31pm PT
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kingtut wrote: "95% of climbing is finger strength-power in proportion to body weight.
With some exceptions needing other groups like on the Wide.
Technique allows you to max your finger strength, but if you can't hang on the holds the route will never go."
this is one of those the glass is half full/half empty type deals.
while it's absolutely correct that a person won't be able to climb a route if they don't have the strength to weight ratio, it's also absolutely correct that even if they have the strength to weight, if they don't have the skills they still won't succeed.
if i could magically give every single one of you duffers making the "it's just strength to weight" argument, ondra's strength, weight and endurance, i doubt any of you would be onsighting anything harder than hard 12s.
point being: you can have all of the strength in the world, but if you don't have skill you still don't get up the damn thing.
to not understand this is to not understand high end climbing.
it's funny because you know who else makes this "i just need to have stronger fingers" argument? every gumby with shitty footwork who is overgripping every hold their first time at the gym.
micronut wrote: "I "know how to climb""
please watch this video below and then let me know again, whether you "know how to climb"...
this is ondra onsighting 8c+ [aka 14c]
[Click to View YouTube Video]
people that think climbing is like weight lifting, swimming, cycling, or any other human-becomes-machine-type-sport don't understand high end sport climbing. [this should in no way be construed as a slam against those sports: i'm partial to a couple of them]
strength/endurance/weight may set the limiting bar, but how close a person gets to that limiting bar has everything to do with thousands and thousands of hours on rock becoming technically proficient at climbing at that high of a level.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Feb 27, 2017 - 06:18pm PT
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Nahoo my comment of I know how to climb was meant to be self-deprecating. I have been climbing 20+ years and I am pretty much solid at 5.9 and fall off of 5.10 without much effort. It was to point out that I strongly feel that being young, very skinny and super strong and motivated can overcome most technical insufficiencies. I don't think you have to know how to climb very "well" to climb 5.13 if you are 14 years old and weigh 95 pounds and climb in the gym six nights a week.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Feb 27, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
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Well, nobody's arguing that it's actually a pinkpoint....,yet
But this is so supertopo.
Pretty much every one of the strongest climbers on the planet are losing their sh¡t and stoked about this gal's achievement.
Then there's that 5.10 crack climber and v0 gym boulderer wet blanketing the send.
Sick!
So supertopo.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Feb 27, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
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micronut...
hahaha... fair enough on the self deprecating... toque was on a little too tight and i missed that.
but if it was pure self deprecation, than your statements become meaningless as that quote had to have some seriousness behind it for your statements to make any sense... ie. you start making my point for me, regarding both technique/mental ability/etc and strength/weight being required to climb at that level.
just because a skinny kid can campus doesn't mean they are going to climb la rambla.
and you kind of know that as your statement above is intrinsically contradictory: "I don't think you have to know how to climb very "well"" about people who are "climbing in the gym six nights a week"
your creation of young people leading the charge that are technically inefficient and only climb at the level of the avant garde due to their being motivated, lightweight and strong is as far as i've seen a figment of your imagination.
if i'm wrong show me one.
as a counter example you should watch ashima shiraishi as an example of exactly the opposite. i've watched her climbing in comps and as far as i can tell she is not the strongest climber as far as pure power goes. but she pulls shIt off technically that her competitors, let alone myself, seemingly can't really wrap their heads around.
ondra is in the same boat. he climbs with a precision, speed and body awareness that boggles my mind.
this superior technical ability is true of every climber i've seen leading the charge.
i'm not saying they don't have to be strong and light.
am just saying power/weight/endurance/motivation alone doesn't get you up la rambla or any other climb that close to the edges of current human potential.
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Bob Harrington
climber
Bishop, California
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Feb 27, 2017 - 07:16pm PT
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That's a great picture! Conveys a feeling I bet most of us can relate to. I know I can, but the routes were several number grades easier.
The fact that climbing a route like this favors strong fingers and light weight doesn't mean it doesn't also take perseverance, patience, technique, problem solving, and motivation in measures that most of us lack. Or so it seems to me.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Feb 27, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
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Drljefe,
Please note that I had no intention of raining on her parade. I'm stoked for her. It's more of an internal question to myself of why I don't think it's all that amazing or why I don't find it terribly impressive. I'm a stoked dude and glad for her. Just wrestling a little bit with why it doesn't strike me as something all that amazing.
Nahoo,
I agree with you, it's a combination of strength, weight, , stroke, tenacity and talent that have led her to such a big time send. I was making an attempt to respond to the quote from
Friedrichs
She didn't succeed because she is skinny and strong. She succeeded because she knows how to climb.
She actually did send in large part because of her skinniness and strength. Yes, the world of sports is full of people with fantastic gifts and no talent or drive. But Michael Phelps does well in part because he is mechanically gifted and built for the task. Shaquille O'Neil had a pretty darn good career simply because he was massive and strong. Their stature however, does nothing to undermine the talent and drive behind the success. The world is full of all kinds of super high achievers that don't have physical gifts as well.
I just personally don't get too excited about the next rad "sports climb" for some reason. But I actually like watching NASCAR so that probably should intrinsically remove me from the discussion anyway.
I got a run. Have to go out and hit the gym. That purple V2 in the cave is not going to send it self with me just sitting here yakking on the Internet. Got to get in shape to climb lurking fear in October which will neither be impressive nor fast but should be full of stoke.
Over and out.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Feb 27, 2017 - 09:02pm PT
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mn wrote: "But I actually like watching NASCAR so that probably should intrinsically remove me from the discussion anyway."
ok... that got a good hearty chuckle... cheers dude and good luck with your training!
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 27, 2017 - 09:32pm PT
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"...that hard, competitive rock climbing would eventually resemble women's gymnastics."
Watching her climb reminded me of seeing a Youtube clip of Lynn Hill years ago at Hueco Tanks. The girls seem to have a certain economical, artistic finesse, while the guys like Adam Ondra attack the rock with brute strength.
Besides the finger strength and strength to weight ratio, she has exceptional flexibility in the joints. Without that, the forces pushing you down and away are greater, even if the strength is the same.
Awhile back, I read an article where they computed at what age your performance peaks for various sports. It is different for guys and girls in many sports, with the girls peaking earlier. For girls like her and Ashima, it will be interesting to see when they peak, and when they begin to lose their edge. All the girls on the U.S Olympic Gymnastics team started really young, and it even appears that if you train really hard from a young age, you remain, on average, shorter in height.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Feb 27, 2017 - 10:16pm PT
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In the world, there are probably many people with the physical characteristics and genetics that would enable them to climb La Rambla. Maybe a larger than random proportion of those people are teenage girls. But less than 20 people have actually climbed La Rambla, and only one of them is a woman.
In addition to pure physical ability, a lot of other factors have to line up, one of which is mental strength. I would argue that mental strength is not a pure endowment, it is developed endogenously by a person during their life. How do they react to success, how do they react to failure? Only by knowing or learning how to develop mental strength can one hope to have any success at all on hard climbs.
The respect we might have for any sort of human activity seems to me to be based on the effort and determination that was invested to develop the requirements that are not endowments. Writing an exceptional achievement off to genetics or physical characteristics seems to miss the point that many other people with genetics or physical characteristics that are just as favorable have not succeeded before. And this is often not for lack of trying. Margo Hayes is not the first woman to spend serious effort on La Rambla.
I'm sure we have all felt that someone else who climbs harder than we do can do it because of their finger size, their height, their weight, etc., etc., and in many cases it's true. But that person has, no doubt, also invested energy and passion to learn to climb the way they do.
On the other hand, many of us are low talent wankers, too, heh, heh.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 27, 2017 - 10:54pm PT
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My son on his RM85 ripping 80mph and flying through the air at 9 years old this weekend at a Pro track at Glen Helen blows my mind. My skinny little neighborhood girl climbing V11's at our local gym just doesn't do it for me.
That little girl climbing even V1, is way more talented than your little limp wristed boy! Sorry but true
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enjoimx
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Feb 28, 2017 - 12:30am PT
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I'm not sure why but I'm never really impressed with this kind of stuff. And I really don't want to sound like a jerk....but I probably do. I dunno....it kind of seems like the equivalent of seeing a 9 year old girl crank off 60 sit-ups in a minute at those YMCA fitness achievement days. Or an 11 year old skinny kid do a ton of pull-ups in the school yard. If you're skinny enough and young enough and stoked enough, super hard sport climbing becomes a matter of grit and bodyweight......it just becomes a bit unimpressive to me.
I strongly feel that being young, very skinny and super strong and motivated can overcome most technical insufficiencies.
Sorry but could not pass this comment up without responding.
This girl is the type of person who is primed to FREE CLIMB all of the easy aid routes you bail off Micronut. Look at Ondra and tell me being young, skinny, and driven equates to being "Technically Insufficient". He free climbed the Dawn Wall. He's a skinny young driven hard AF sport climber.
Just because someone doesn't know how to pound a piton into a crack with a gigantic hammer and step up in a tangled mess of aid ladders, does not mean they have "Technical Insufficiencies" to overcome. In fact this mentality is arguably backwards. Its those who can't free climb that are technically insufficient.
So yeah, dialing that purple V2 at the gym would probably be a good idea.
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Degaine
climber
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Feb 28, 2017 - 03:27am PT
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Is thread the old male climbers' equivalent of, "Those dang kids and their loud music!"?
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Degaine
climber
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Feb 28, 2017 - 03:28am PT
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Tami wrote:
Warbler, flog that dead horse!!!
You read my mind.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Feb 28, 2017 - 05:17am PT
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We've all been there at the top of a climb we were challenged by, now having successfully sent it.
Definitely a feeling worth going back to!
That's it. More power to that young lady.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Feb 28, 2017 - 06:43am PT
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Enjoimx,
I never said nor hinted either of those two climbers were technically insufficient. They are both amazing climbers. Go and read the thread before entering the conversation next time. And dont worry. Your insult didnt hurt my feelings. I'm a terrible aid climber, and I don't own a hammer or pitons.
Scott
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Feb 28, 2017 - 08:43am PT
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My hat is off to this young lady for a proud accomplishment. Hell yeah!! Now that's a SEND!
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TheSoloClimber
Trad climber
Vancouver
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
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My intent in sharing this was not to say, "blah blah sport climber climbs 5.impossible route following in the footsteps of other blah blah sport climbers who have done it before".
I like to think I've been around long enough to know that the majority of people on this site really don't care about the genetically gifted mutants (as I've heard some top climbers called) but I thought this ascent will be historically significant, somewhat similar to Lynn Hill on the Nose.
I'm prepared to get a tidal wave of backlash for that comment, but think about it. The first .15a was climbed what, 15 years ago? 20? I don't know, but since then I'm sure there have been countless ascents in the .15 range made by countless male climbers. We have had upwards of 15 years of hearing about these climbs, so much that we are indifferent to yet another one.
But consider that also, in those last 15 years, there have only been like three women to even touch 5.14d. It's still a big deal when a girl sends anything in the .14 range, and now we have the first female ascent of a solid .15 and the majority of the armchair climbers are like *yawn*.
Maybe it has to do with age, or maybe being unable to comprehend how much work actually goes into a climb of that magnitude, but I don't understand the downplaying attitude.
I am willing to bet that any climber who would be considered to have legend status, like Lynn Hill, or Tommy Caldwell, or Peter Croft, would look at this ascent and be like holy sh#t that's amazing. Saying that it isn't noteworthy just makes people sound pretentious in my opinion.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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Feb 28, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
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Originally rated 14C by Huber who did the FA in 1994. Megos did it on his second attempt (2013), Ondra after five attempts (2008). Not solid .15 as stated. If you think this is comparable to Lynn on the Nose, you are dead wrong.
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