OSHA fines Exum after death, water-knot probe

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Messages 61 - 80 of total 110 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
conman

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Feb 22, 2017 - 02:19pm PT
I'll use a water knot when tying two ropes together on long rappels but always back up both sides with a triple fisherman.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 22, 2017 - 02:21pm PT
If it did, then the atrocious workplaces, worker injury and death rates of the past wouldn't have existed.

And OSHA eliminated such things, due to its wonderful oversight?

And OSHA's wonderful oversight could have kept this incident from happening?

And the fine is going to make guiding services really shape up to keep such things from happening again?

The usual fringe-right, hate-all-things-guberment nonsense.

The usual fringe-left, government-does-all-things-well nonsense.

:-)
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Feb 22, 2017 - 03:35pm PT
I used to program that thing instead of using the mainframe (lol, you young guys know what a mainframe is?)

Not a mainframe, but, I used to program a Motorola 6809 in assembly language...


Rick Krause

Trad climber
Madras, Or
Feb 24, 2017 - 09:23am PT
OSHA is only there because the mountain guiding community and individuals are cutting corners.

For $12.00 this person would most likely still be alive. Anyone that is not using sewn slings for PERSONAL safety are just fools.
jonnyrig

climber
Feb 24, 2017 - 09:49am PT

Feb 22, 2017 - 02:21pm PT
If it did, then the atrocious workplaces, worker injury and death rates of the past wouldn't have existed.

And OSHA eliminated such things, due to its wonderful oversight?

And OSHA's wonderful oversight could have kept this incident from happening?

And the fine is going to make guiding services really shape up to keep such things from happening again?

The usual fringe-right, hate-all-things-guberment nonsense.

The usual fringe-left, government-does-all-things-well nonsense.

Actually, OSHA and other supposedly over-restrictive government agencies have actually reduced the accidental injury/death rate significantly over the past century or so. Employers like to cut corners, and so do employees. You teach shop class? Ever try to convince a bunch of fresh-out-of-high school students that safety glasses are actually necessary while using air tools or grinders?

People think they're invincible. Employers think the extra time/cost for basic safety equipment and procedures is prohibitively expensive. Everybody points the finger at someone else when an accident happens, then shrugs it off and says "shit happens, couldn't have been prevented" or something like, well it all boils down to personal responsibility.

Like, there's nothing the guide service could have or should have done in terms of requiring specific gear or procedures. And for certain OSHA should have NO OVERSIGHT WHATSOEVER in the climbing community. Despite the fact that OSHA's core mission is to protect the safety and health of American workers.

This was the guide's primary place of employment. It was a job. That mandates OSHA oversight. I don't know that they really need to implement a requirement of training under the bloodborne pathogens standards; but that really depends on if the guide's duties include first-responder duties or not. If so, then it applies.

As to the annual inspection of gear and a responsibility to ensure that employee-provided personal gear is safe, that's also a general requirement throughout the rest of the general workforce as well. You can't bring your personal skill saw to a job site and use it with a f*#ked up cord and no guard, for example.

Yeah, government overreaches sometimes. Other times they are the only way employers will actually institute safe practices. Haven't you heard the anecdotes about roofers that are fired before they hit the ground for falling off the roof?
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 24, 2017 - 09:52am PT
And OSHA eliminated such things, due to its wonderful oversight?

Workplaces overall are unquestionably safer than they were 100 or 50 years ago. And a major reason for that is, in fact, regulation of workplace safety.

I don't have to enjoy the OSHA/EHS inspections of my research laboratory, or think that their concerns are always prioritized as I would prefer, to understand that that is so.

And OSHA's wonderful oversight could have kept this incident from happening?

And the fine is going to make guiding services really shape up to keep such things from happening again?

Open question. Solid bet that Exum changes its practices and other guiding services take notice.

And again: note that the clients — unnecessarily placed in jeopardy above and beyond that from the climb itself, and who had to watch a man die for no good reason — were not adults.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 24, 2017 - 10:06am PT
Assertions of OSHA's credit for improving workplace safety are just that: assertions.
Y'all really need to read up on tort development history.

While OSHA may think Exum was responsible for this the victim's heirs would likely go home
empty handed:

"If the victim has contributed to causing their own harm through negligent or irresponsible actions, the damages may be reduced or eliminated entirely."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Feb 24, 2017 - 10:13am PT
Um, the tort system has existed for 100s of years and looks at the legal concept of negligence after an accident and has had very little impact on the granular requirements of workplace safety in different industries. In any event, most workers I know would prefer not to be mangled or killed in the first place which is the point of worker safety regulations. Nothing is perfect, but work is much safer because of OSHA.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 24, 2017 - 10:48am PT
ontheedge, while OSHA has certainly done some good how do you measure its efficacy
vs that of the combined effects of tort actions AND the insurance industry? Why do you
think that most of the wife's colleagues say they would never go into OB again if they had
a do-over?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Feb 24, 2017 - 11:20am PT
Dunno about OBs (though I've heard the same thing), but remember that whatever insurance companies might require of them is likely the result of patient lawsuits as opposed to employee accidents in the delivery room. Also, while litigation (and the subsequent response by insurance companies) is common in some industries it is rare in others. Lastly, many worker injuries are handled through the workers comp system and are not pursued as a tort claim.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 24, 2017 - 12:48pm PT
Does regulation make work safer? Compare California (highly regulated) and Texas (less regulated)

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/texas-353624-california-percent.html

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there were 3,849 workplace deaths in Texas from 2003 through 2010 – the years available in the online database. That was 10 percent higher than the 3,589 workers who died at work in California in the same period.

That's not a negligible difference when you note that California – despite all its faults – has a far larger workforce than Texas. (Even if in this period, Texas jobs grew 10 percent as California payrolls shrank by 3 percent!)

So when you look at workplace deaths vs. the BLS count of all non-farm workers by state, Texas had 4.79 fatalities per 100,000 workers in 2003-2008 vs. California's 3.07. Basically, Texas workers died on the job at roughly a 50 percent faster pace than Californians.

O.K. Not all jobs are the same in terms of risks.

So I then looked at a particularly dangerous slice of the workplace – the so-called "goods producing" jobs. You know, where folks actually make things vs. pushing papers or providing services.

In Texas, in 2003-10, there were 1,780 deaths in goods-producing jobs – or 46 percent of the state's total job-related fatalities in the period. That was 32 percent higher than California job deaths in the same period.

But, believe it or not, California has more goods-producing workers than Texas – despite the many manufacturing challenges in the Golden State that sliced California good-producing work by 23 percent in this period. (Meanwhile, Texas job count was flat in 2003-10!)

As for good-producing, job-related deaths -- per equal number of employees, Texas workers are almost twice as likely to get killed than a Californian.

Could Texas goods-producing jobs themselves be more dangerous than the ones in California? So I took one more mathematical step – comparing what's seemingly a rather ubiquitous yet dangerous trade: construction work.

From 2003 to 2010, 999 Texas construction workers died on the job – a quarter of the state's job fatalities and 42 percent more than California.

ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Feb 24, 2017 - 02:31pm PT
got to control for California being populated by Californians and Texas by Texans, eh
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 24, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
Acckkkk, so we've devolved into yet another thread of non-statisticians quoting thin-slice statistics to "make" a case of their own design. Reilly is asking the right questions, but in response, we just get more thin-slice and highly interpreted statistics.

Ah, the Nanny State! Ever growing, ever invading, ever seeking to control that which in principle can't be controlled.

BTW, when I was a project manager for a residential construction company in California in the 80's you certainly COULD bring your own Skilsaw onto the job site, and many carpenters did have guards wired back. My own Skilsaw still has its guard wired back. I personally watched one carpenter lay his thigh wide open with his own saw, due to the guard being wired back. He got his Workman's Comp. End of story.

Try as you might to "oversee" everything at the federal level, sh|t's still gonna happen. End of story.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 24, 2017 - 05:19pm PT
Still got all yer finger tips MB? Sure, ill advised practices are going to happen. Who needs wire? a wedged 16d was faster. save the wire for disabling the safety on the nail gun. Noobs do that stuff cuz they think it is cool. Go ahead and attack the facts with hyperbole and the standard rant, but the truth is, regulation works.
c wilmot

climber
Feb 24, 2017 - 05:35pm PT
My coworker cut himself to the point of emergency surgery with the guard wired open on his skil saw. I never did understand the reasons for keeping it wired open
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 24, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
I never did understand the reasons for keeping it wired open

when you are trimming a very small amount of material the guard makes it difficult. I would just use a nail to hold the guard up when I needed to do that, then removed it. Having it up all the time was a hassle because you could not set the saw down without worrying about the blade doing damage.
WBraun

climber
Feb 24, 2017 - 05:41pm PT
I took my skillsaw guard off the whole time for years.

Only put it back on for the 2 hours when OSHA came around then took it back off.

Forman always told us when OSHA was coming for inspection and said put the guards on until they leave ......
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 24, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
the truth is, regulation works.

You say so. Thus it must be so.

Depends on what "works" means to you.

The feds say that the "war on drugs" also "works." Do you believe that?

Hey, just LOOK at all the drugs they've kept off the streets. Thousands of tons of the stuff! So, right? It "works"?

Yeah right. Carry on.
WBraun

climber
Feb 24, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
the "war on drugs" also "works."

Meanwhile, the CIA is trafficking drugs all over the USA and the planet to fund their criminal black ops everywhere they go ....
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 24, 2017 - 06:03pm PT
when you are trimming a very small amount of material the guard makes it difficult.

Every cut is more difficult with the guard down. Even large amounts of material, particularly when you're doing bunches of quick cut-off work that still needs to be spot-on, having the guard up is dramatically more efficient and faster.

I would just use a nail to hold the guard up when I needed to do that, then removed it.

They guys I heard about that got hurt, and the one guy I saw, played this sort of game. With that approach, you have to remember each time, "Is my guard up or down?" Sometimes you think the saw is safe, and other times you pay closer attention.

Having it up all the time was a hassle because you could not set the saw down without worrying about the blade doing damage.

No, that was the point! With the guard wired up, you were committed. You KNEW that that was a live blade! You always treated the saw like a loaded gun and always unconsciously knew which way the blade was pointing. Thus, even setting it down was an unconscious act of being aware. No need for there to be any damage.

I can't count the number of custom homes I built and oversaw being built. Just last year I sold the custom home I personally built and lived in. How many hundreds of thousands of saw cuts over those years? Always with the same Skilsaw, always with the same wire from decades ago holding the blade back. Never even a close-call.

Of course, that's just one bit of anecdotal evidence. Not worth much. But, you know what, I didn't need OSHA telling me how to be safe. And out of hundreds of guys I personally worked with, and the almost universal disregard for having the guards working as designed, I didn't even hear of but a few Skilsaw accidents.

And guys cut off their thumbs with the chop-saws... even with the guards functioning as designed.

OSHA can't fix stupid, and I didn't observe where it even reduced the incidence of injuries.

Some workplaces are just inherently dangerous, like the one that is the subject of this thread. OSHA's involvement (and fine) is almost certainly going to have zero effect on "workplace" safety.
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