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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 21, 2017 - 09:48pm PT
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the strength of 1/2" is sufficient
Yeah, that's right.
Anybody who has read Royal Robbins' Advance Rockcraft knows that Sheridan Anderson's cartoon showing a tied-off baby angle was tied off with 1/2" tubular webbing, not 9/16" webbing. DUH.
Who here is old enough to remember that fat and stiff 9/16" tubular webbing was called "Super Tape"?
Back In The Day, slack and wimpy 1/2" was always the material of choice for tie-offs and Hero Loops (younguns: don't ask).
When the chips are down and the bets are for real, even dental floss would seem strong enough. Using Super Tape to tie off a pin that might zip your azz down the entire pitch if you sneezed was never a reasonable option.
Soft and supple 1/2" tubular webbing always held a water knot better than Super Tape. Super Tape was intended to be lighter than 1", but just as strong. The downside was Super Tape liked to Go Its Own Way, so to speak.
For a similar reason, 1/2" webbing is what you used to doctor up your gray Jumars, wrapping the entire mechanism's frame, top to bottom, in case the bottom eye blew out. If 1/2" webbing wasn't strong enough for the shock-load you might put on your Jumars, well, you had much worse potential problems facing you.
I still have some of my first 1/2" tie-off loops (gray) from 1974, which I keep to remind me that I'm not getting old; the same rules still apply.
I don't use those vintage gray loops. I just keep them in my pack-rat stash to help me remember that which is important to remember.
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Edge
Trad climber
Betwixt and Between Nederland & Boulder, CO
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Feb 21, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
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Who here is old enough to remember that fat and stiff 9/16" tubular webbing was called "Super Tape"? In the late 70's, early 80's, I used Super Tape with a double fishermans knot for all of my single and double over-the-shoulder slings, of which I carried a half dozen or more. It was an improvement over the 1" tubular that I used prior.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 21, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
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^^^^^^^
I concur. Slings made from Super Tape had definite advantages over 1", and not the least being because it was stiffer, thinner and wouldn't monkey-f*#k you as much when clipping in when desperate times didn't want desperate measures.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 21, 2017 - 10:59pm PT
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wouldn't monkey-f*#k you as much
Classic, Tom. LOL
I always felt that if I was using tie-offs, I was already pretty monkey-f*#ked, and, yeah, dental-floss was probably strong enough (and would exert less leverage on the placement). Never liked 9/16 in any context.
Of course, the context of this thread was quite different, as the 9/16 was not being used as a tie-off. It's been said dozens of times on this thread already but bears repeating: Check yer knots often! Then again! Then don't ever hang your life on any one thing. (Of course, we've all done so, at least "just for a minute.")
OSHA's involvement strikes me as really odd. Yes, the death was in a "commercial" context. But I think that Gunsmoke is correct in noting that OSHA can't pretend that the guide wasn't adequately trained, and OSHA surely can't believe that the employer should be "present" and checking every connection throughout a climb or descent.
This tragedy belongs in the "sh|t happens" column, as for most of us some "sh|t happening" is what's ultimately going to get us. Most of us are not gonna die in our sleep. And when you "prevent" one "preventable cause of death," another's gonna getcha. Good luck paying attention to and dodging all the bullets.
Yes, this one could have been prevented, and we all remind ourselves with knowing nods: Check yer knots. But nothing OSHA does is going to keep it from happening again (even commercially), and the fine was of purely symbolic "value." Climbing (even commercially) is inherently dangerous, and nothing OSHA does is going to change that.
Next it will be OSHA claiming that the employer should have properly inspected and cleaned the route, so that rockfall couldn't have killed anybody. Calling a climbing route a "work environment" that can in principle be "managed" is a quite ridiculous stretch, imo.
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perswig
climber
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Feb 21, 2017 - 11:36pm PT
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Damn, that 15C is a blast from the past. You dudes are old.
Long live reverse-Polish.
Dale
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Feb 21, 2017 - 11:58pm PT
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ok all you naysayers... in case you didn't read the article, here's osha's recommendation: the employer should inspect the employees personally provided safety gear once a year.
i get the slippery slope argument... and i agree, from first hand experience that safety organizations can be rigidly and absurdly myopic and so it's a bit frightening to see them enter this space. i also think the $7500 fine, regarding still emergent rules in a previously relatively overlooked industry, is horse shIt.
but at the end of the day, when i ignore those two parts and look at the actual precedent, i don't have an issue...
want to run a guiding business employing other guides? sorry, but i don't see why you shouldn't have to play the same game that every other business employing people in dangerous fields has to play... ultimately, if done with realism, it is for the betterment of the industry as a whole as it creates more professionalism, a leveller playing field and a safer environment for all involved.
the key is implementing rules with realism.
and saying an employer is responsible to inspect their employee provided safety gear once a year is, imo, both realistic and positive.
so... if anybody is interested in trying to convince me otherwise, and i do have a mind that is open: what am i missing with regards to the potential problems with this specific rule?
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Feb 22, 2017 - 04:04am PT
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Damn, that 15C is a blast from the past. You dudes are old.
i noticed that myself, but thought it was a 12c. (The 15c is a scientific calculator, and the 12c is a financial calculator.) The 12c has been in production since 1981. Too bad they don't make cell phones as hardy as these machines.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Feb 22, 2017 - 05:28am PT
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want to run a guiding business employing other guides? sorry, but i don't see why you shouldn't have to play the same game that every other business employing people in dangerous fields has to play... ultimately, if done with realism, it is for the betterment of the industry as a whole as it creates more professionalism, a leveller playing field and a safer environment for all involved.
Cost is why. Climbing is inherently risky and the tools/methods employed would never, ever meet current industrial standards.
If OSHA were to really get involved they'd kill every guiding business out there.
I can see the gov't paperwork now... Imagine the federal gov't trying to create "standards" documents for alpine climbing. Total nightmare.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 22, 2017 - 05:53am PT
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If OSHA were to really get involved they'd kill every guiding business out there.
Yer point?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 22, 2017 - 10:42am PT
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saying an employer is responsible to inspect their employee provided safety gear once a year is, imo, both realistic and positive.
Agreed.
But that would almost certainly have had zero effect on this situation.
And, as you said, the fine was uncalled for.
This is more government intervention, trying to control that which in principle can't be controlled.
Oh, and, of course, extracting money in the process.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Feb 22, 2017 - 10:55am PT
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Quite the unfortunate accident, for sure. But there's something about OSHA getting into climbing that bugs the hell outta me, even when it's protecting guided clients.
All part of the uptight, upright society that wants a gold plated guarantee on everything and insurance to the hilt.
Well, the news is: there are no guarantees.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Feb 22, 2017 - 11:08am PT
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Damn, that 15C is a blast from the past. You dudes are old.
I got my 11C (also scientific, but not quite as fancy as 15C) in the early 80's. It still hangs out in the living room and I still occasionally use it. (For something more than just holding a book open.)
Insert "they don't make 'em like they used to" comment.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Feb 22, 2017 - 11:09am PT
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I think there's a good question in here... how many guide services hire climbers with a lengthy resume, without actually testing their rope management and safety practices? If you only hire a certified guide then you know they have at least learned the right stuff. Do all official guide services only hire guides who are certified?
If not, do they have processes to actually see how safe the people are other than word of mouth or a short verbal interview? Seems like a good practice would be to do a test climb with an employee observer acting as a client, while the prospective guide did their thing.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Feb 22, 2017 - 11:26am PT
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I have one of those 15c's sitting right here on my desk (sorry for thread drift), love that reverse Polish. I used to program that thing instead of using the mainframe (lol, you young guys know what a mainframe is?)
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Feb 22, 2017 - 11:27am PT
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Got two mainframe windows open right now....
They're far from dead.
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casconed
Trad climber
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Feb 22, 2017 - 11:32am PT
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Good luck at being able to quickly untie a cinched water knot.
It is quite easy - just roll it between your hands like you are making a snake with play-doh.
Hallmarks of a good knot - easy to tie, easy to untie, and won't come undone under load
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 22, 2017 - 11:39am PT
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OSHA = Outrageously Stoopid Harrassment Administration
The US tort system is far more efficient.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 22, 2017 - 11:51am PT
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The US tort system is far more efficient.
Precisely. Well said.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 22, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
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OSHA were dickheads for fining EXUM.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 22, 2017 - 02:13pm PT
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The US tort system is far more efficient.
Actually it isn't and never has been relative to workplace safety. If it did, then the atrocious workplaces, worker injury and death rates of the past wouldn't have existed. OSHA, whatever its failings, has made for far safer workplaces across the nation.
The usual fringe-right, hate-all-things-guberment nonsense.
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