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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 24, 2017 - 06:04pm PT
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Meanwhile, the CIA is trafficking drugs all over the USA and the planet to fund their criminal black ops everywhere they go
Very good point!
The government is about power and control. It's not about helping us, protecting us, or in any way serving us.
Those days are LONG past!
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jonnyrig
climber
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Feb 24, 2017 - 06:07pm PT
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I don't say so, the reduction in accidental death and injury rates say so. But then i guess alternate facts are all the rage.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 24, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
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the reduction in accidental death and injury rates say so
Only because you conveniently ignore Reilly's very insightful questions and observations from up-thread.
This is a classic case of "lies, damned lies, and statistics." You see in the stats exactly what you're looking for. So, of course they "say" exactly what you say that they say.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Feb 24, 2017 - 06:26pm PT
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You offer nothing but your own experience. You must think that you are the center of the universe if you think all regulation must be based on your personal experiences. Give us some facts, not some spray.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Feb 24, 2017 - 06:32pm PT
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Well I didn't know this about 9/16" so I appreciate everyone's posts and I don't mess with my Milwaukee guard ever. Two houses and two cabins built with it and I can still count to ten
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 24, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
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You must think that you are the center of the universe
Pffftttt....
Really? That's where we are now in this "discussion"?
Did you not read what I said about my one case being merely anecdotal?
And, "facts"? My very point is that there are not FACTS to be had here, regardless of how you want to spin statistics.
The difference between you and me is that in the absence of facts, you still want more governmental control. BECAUSE I believe that the facts are precious few, far between, and subject to a LOT of interpretation, I do NOT want yet more governmental control.
How about the government put its mega-resources into doing those few things it was actually constitutionally duty-bound to DO? Such as, oh, I don't know, exercising some really strong anti-trust regulation with TEETH in it?
How about, oh, I don't know, taking that OSHA guy's salary and putting it toward somebody with a brain enough to INSTANTLY recognize that a Comcast/Time-Warner merger is OBVIOUSLY a bad deal for the PUBLIC (who the government is ostensibly in business to protect).
See, the government spends so much time and resources doing that which it SHOULDN'T that it doesn't spend time and resources to do what it is in place to actually do.
It is a zero-sum game. There is not enough money to go around. So EVERY dollar the feds spend "ensuring" that a climbing knot is properly tied (which it really can't in-principle do) is a dollar that the feds do NOT spend in, say, enforcing the do-not-call list (which is really an interstate commerce issue and which the violation of has become EPIC).
There are literally countless ways in which the government could be making my life better by protecting my basic rights, and these it does NOT do. Instead, it hassles a climbing guide service in the very way that will do no good. Instead it wages a "war on drugs" at my expense that does no good. Instead it... well, you get the idea. It wastes my money on things it is NOT in business to do, and the net effect is that it does not do what it was actually put in place TO do.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Feb 24, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
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Abstract
Controversy surrounds occupational health and safety regulators, with some observers claiming that workplace regulations damage firms’ competitiveness and destroy jobs and others arguing that they make workplaces safer at little cost to employers and employees. We analyzed a natural field experiment to examine how workplace safety inspections affected injury rates and other outcomes. We compared 409 randomly inspected establishments in California with 409 matched-control establishments that were eligible, but not chosen, for inspection. Compared with controls, randomly inspected employers experienced a 9.4% decline in injury rates (95% confidence interval = –0.177 to –0.021) and a 26% reduction in injury cost (95% confidence interval = –0.513 to –0.083). We find no evidence that these improvements came at the expense of employment, sales, credit ratings, or firm survival.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/336/6083/907
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 24, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
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Thanks, Spiny. Worthy effort. Seriously.
More to say than can possibly fit in a forum post. I would merely ask: What was the cost of inspections/enforcement to have (if it is to be believed) a 9% reduction in total injuries (including, one would presume, carpel tunnel syndrome and tendentious, cases of which number in the tens of thousands according to OSHA's stats)?
It's become a tragic axiom: Whatever the government declares "war" on is going to cost us TONS of money to basically no avail.
http://www.drugpolicy.org/wasted-tax-dollars
We want BANG for our buck! We're not getting it.
How many millions/billions do you want to spend to have (if it is really to be believed) a 9% reduction in, say, carpel tunnel syndrome?
And enforcing climbing knots!?! Nahhhh. Please! Let's not go there!
But we already have. The slippery slope reigns supreme.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Feb 24, 2017 - 07:04pm PT
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I'm saying OSHA has had an impact. You seem to be saying they're worthless. I did NOT say there weren't other intervening factors that contribute. So, come on and post up your evidence that shows the lack of impact that OSHA had head over the decades since they came about.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 24, 2017 - 07:16pm PT
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I'm saying OSHA has had an impact. You seem to be saying they're worthless.
No, I'm saying that like virtually all of the things the government is doing that it has no business doing, we're not getting the bang for the buck we have every right to expect.
What the government does is take up some role that it shouldn't. Then it has to form an agency, adding to the already absurd bureaucracy that burdens we the taxpayers. Then that agency insulates itself from any meaningful oversight, not the least of which is because the new agency is immediately politicized, so that Congress can't even try to exercise oversight without that process itself being politicized. So, once in place, the new agency just EXISTS, sucks off of us, delivers VERY little in comparison to what we spend for it, and becomes basically untouchable.
I'm not saying that OSHA has done or does NO good. I'm saying that it's just another federal agency doing what it was none of the feds' business to do, that they do badly, and that costs us a TON of money to do badly.
This present thread is a perfect case-study in OSHA getting involved in a "workplace" that is ludicrous. And the very argument that "it IS a 'workplace,' so it DOES fall under OSHA's jurisdiction" is what really reveals just HOW ludicrous the whole thing has become!
But that's what the feds do. They inject themselves where they don't belong, charge us for the "privilege," and then have NO common-sense or awareness of proportion. We then pay for SILLY enforcement, and we get precious little or no real benefit.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Feb 24, 2017 - 09:22pm PT
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sufficient tails Due diligence -- same way a pilot goes thru a check-list and walk around inspection.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Feb 24, 2017 - 09:34pm PT
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interesting debate.
while i still contend osha has a place with regards to large corporate operations [read up on the lack of worker protections during the building of the burj khalifa if you disagree], i have to admit i'm coming around... this is in large part due to the absurdity regarding fining a relatively small business $7500 for breaking a "rule" that didn't explicitly exist prior to its enforcement.
osha or ohs ain't all bad... but it contextually ain't all great either.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Feb 24, 2017 - 09:40pm PT
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While for some ranting about the federal government is always cathartic it was a Wyoming state agency that fined Exum.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Feb 24, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
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We use to pin our guards up on our skil saws with a shim for many years. Never had a problem, but then we realized it wasn't worth it. One of the main reasons for pinning the guard up and other sketchy tactics is its faster. But just because it's faster doesn't make it better. The few times OSHA would come by we would just drop our bags and drive down the street and leave the contractor to deal.
As for the water knot have used them for years with no problems. It sucks that OSHA got involved in the climbing accident. Peace .
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Feb 24, 2017 - 11:57pm PT
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Willy: What the hell you need ball bearings for?
Fletch: Awww, come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Feb 25, 2017 - 01:34am PT
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When I forst started using a skill saw, they had not invented guards. I was taught to never put it down until the blade fully stoped. Having the guard meant I could put it down before the blade stopped spinning and amde it faster for me. I was not doing fine carpentry.
BTW the only people I have seen injured by skill saws were not the people who were using one with the guard retracted or missing, but their buddies who were working nearby
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 25, 2017 - 08:55am PT
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There are certain cuts done in repetition during a job that is basically the same every time.
The saw guard gets caught in the piece being cut in those certain cuts.
This why the guard is taken off, and not because we're against OSHA.
But then dumbsh!t OSHA shows up with their robotic consciousness and says you can't do that.
They think everyone is as dumbsh!t like them (OSHA) and not aware of the dangers of some non-standard operating procedures according to time and circumstances.
How did this turn into a skill saw thread? LOL
When I was doing high angle rigging in remote places on this planet there was no safety period.
We were are own safety.
No OSHA ..... thank god those dumb ass fukers were not there otherwise would have never even gotten started doing anything.
The dangers were extremely high on those jobs and you could easily get killed if let your concentration wander off.
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sempervirens
climber
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Feb 25, 2017 - 09:32am PT
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Madbolt, you do bring up some worthy things to consider re OSHA and safety. But then you add illogical nonsense like this gem:
Ah, the Nanny State! Ever growing, ever invading, ever seeking to control that which in principle can't be controlled.
Try as you might to "oversee" everything at the federal level, sh|t's still gonna happen. End of story.
So can see the lack of logic there? "Yes that data could be thin-slicing or cherry picking but you refute it based on nothing but this rhetoric and your admittedly anecdotal evidence. "Non-statisticians"? that is also a logical fallacy since it's simply an ad hominem attack. Is says nothing about the topic at hand. Then you decide to dis-believe the stats. based on... your belief in disbelieving?
I agree with you about strengthening and/or enforcing the anti-trust law in US. But those against such action use the same "nanny state" rhetoric argument against anti-trust law. Don't fall for that.
Through all this internet arguing, especially in this era, it's important to consider logic.
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sempervirens
climber
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Feb 25, 2017 - 09:53am PT
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t's become a tragic axiom: Whatever the government declares "war" on is going to cost us TONS of money to basically no avail.
How many millions/billions do you want to spend to have (if it is really to be believed) a 9% reduction in, say, carpel tunnel syndrome?
But we already have. The slippery slope reigns supreme.
That "tragic axiom" is meaningless rhetoric 'cause you give no evidence and then conclude ... "no avail". So are you saying there should be no gov. safety regulation because it's expensive and "... to no avail"? "Declaring war" might be a bit of an exaggeration, eh. ".... a complete and total ban on all water knots until we can find out what the hell is going on", ha, ha, ha.
"if it is to be believed". Meaningless. You give no reason to believe or dis-believe it, so better to leave that stuff out if you're really interested in making an argument.
Slippery slope, another logical fallacy. Google can explain it better than I can.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Feb 25, 2017 - 11:50am PT
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Safety glasses w/disk grinder = treason.
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