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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 21, 2017 - 01:39pm PT
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THE TWO STEP PROGRAM
Step One: Tie a water knot loop with 2" tails
Step Two: Sew the tails to the loop
I got so freaked out partway up a wall, I tied an extra harness donut with a water knot, and sewed the tails down by hand. That was right after Todd Skinner fell rapping off the Leaning Tower when his donut broke.
A decade later, my wall harness has two water knot donuts with sewn tails.
EDIT:
OSHA is part of the Department of Labor
"OSHA" now stands for "Oh Sh!t, Here's Acosta"
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Feb 21, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
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This guy also fails for trusting his life to a single non-redundant sling. Should have had a second backup sling. That is really the worst offense.
"Offense?" Really? Who uses two tethers?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Feb 21, 2017 - 02:52pm PT
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Who uses 2 tethers?! I do.
At stations I will usually be in with the rope and a tether (arrangement varies if bigwall vs. trad). The rope is my real life support, and I tie it with some "moving around" slack for hauling and such, the tether is what is holding my weight and is adjusted for comfort.
For rappels I'll grab a sling to clip between my belay loop and the anchors for a second tether, nothing more than that. 2 full strength connections before I go off-rappel. Always. I only trust my harness and rope to be single point failures, everything else MUST be redundant.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2017 - 03:09pm PT
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OSHA shouldn't be fining climbers.
OSHA ain't climbers.
They are clueless to the dynamic world of climbing environments.
OSHA is a static robot ......
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 21, 2017 - 04:31pm PT
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This is one of the reasons why I never use tied 9/16" tie-offs. For tying off pitons, etc., the strength of 1/2" is sufficient, makes for a smaller and tighter clove-hitch around the piton, and the knot to form the loop becomes pebble-hard and basically impossible to untie once weighted. No auto-untying problem with 1/2".
A double-fisherman's knot is worse than large and ugly, to my mind. The entire "assembly" forming such a tie-off is just too bulky in every respect to properly tie-off a piton-tip or piton-stack. So, it's a water-knot or nothing, making as small a loop as possible. But, then, that really doesn't work for 9/16". So....
I've just never found the use-case for 9/16" that was not more than offset by this known problem. For me it's either 1/2" or straight to 1", neither of which auto-untie once the knot is properly tightened.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Feb 21, 2017 - 05:31pm PT
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OSHA shouldn't be fining climbers.
OSHA ain't climbers.
They are clueless to the dynamic world of climbing environments.
OSHA is a static robot ......
This x 100
There is no way to legislate climbing as "safe", let alone alpine climbing. You head up then you take the risks if you're guided or knot.
The Disneyland televised approach to Everest and the like may be contributing to this false sense of security.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 21, 2017 - 05:47pm PT
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I'm okay with the OSHA thing, surprised by it actually.
Climbers, especially guides, tend to have these egos - they think they know everything. AMGA is a joke in their attempt to temper and regulate basically just that. OSHA fills a gap. It is indeed a dangerous job that could also kill innocent clients. It doesn't matter what OSHA understands of the sport - they're simply an org that won't participate in nor accept BS.
They probably came in, asked a few very simple questions, came to a very clear and obvious conclusion, handed out the fine and left - perfect.
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Dickly
Social climber
KY
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Feb 21, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
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"who uses two tethers"- me most of the time. of course I dont own a store bought PAS
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
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It doesn't matter what OSHA understands of the sport - they're simply an org that won't participate in nor accept BS.
You just made that up in your head somewhere and spit it out believing that bullsh!t.
The OSHA dude was sitting next to us and said he knows everything about climbing and that he/they are "THE" experts.
Straight from his mouth.
The dude weighed about 340 pounds 5 feet 8 inches with a beer gut you wouldn't believe ......
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 21, 2017 - 06:12pm PT
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The dude weighed about 340 pounds 5 feet 8 inches with a beer gut you wouldn't believe ......
Did you disagree with his findings?
Lots of "climbing" to be done out there in the workplace, maybe he was a star in his prime, OSHA's best...
So funny, you have the exact ego and bias I speak of. Even funnier it's some guy you think is a slob and so wrong about everything is in their slapping your asses around. Like I said, it all sounds just perfect to me.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Feb 21, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
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^^^perfect dude for bounce testing WB.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2017 - 06:14pm PT
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I told you make sh!t up in your head all the time.
I never said a word to this guy.
He didn't even know I was climber .......
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 21, 2017 - 06:18pm PT
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I put a wrap of duct tape around the ends on both sides of the knot. I don't like the way the knot comes apart all the time if you don't!
I don't use many tie-offs on pitons any more. More common applications for me might be hook slings, and cleaning loops on top of big Peckers.*
*Also clip-in loops when nailed upwards into horizontal placements!
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Feb 21, 2017 - 07:49pm PT
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I'm okay with the OSHA thing...
Put me down for NOT okay with the OSHA thing. OSHA found that the employer “shall be responsible to assure its adequacy, including proper maintenance [of the knot].” In other words, the employer is responsible to ensure that the guide's knots are properly tied! Unbelievable, IMHO. Perhaps at the start of each climb the guide can take pics of all of his gear, including each knot, and send them to company admin to verify compliance before leaving the TH (for any OSHA employees following this, TH stands for trailhead). What's next? Are indoor climbing gyms obligated to make sure that patrons' knots are properly tied?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Feb 21, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
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The only relavent OSHA standards I see are Fall Prevention https://www.osha.gov/stopfalls/index.html
Did find this gem, obviously written by a real expert https://www.trails.com/facts_6309_osha-climbing-regulations.html
Fall Protection
Something every instructor must go over with his clients is protection from a possible fall. This includes proper landing technique, avalanche awareness and how to break a fall.
Climbing Aids
An instructor or manager has the responsibility to provide adequate climbing aids to clients. This may include harnesses, clips and hooks needed for a safe climb.
Loads
Loads and weight-bearing boundaries should be addressed before a climb. This includes any backpack or carry-on pack the climber may have.
Body Belts
Body belts and harness adjustment are essential to a successful climb. Making sure that each climber has been shown how to properly use belts, harnesses and ropes is part of OSHA's safety standards.
Instructional Data
Providing instructional data such as video guides, booklets, or hands-on demonstrations of how to safely climb rocks, mountains, ice or other terrain is necessary. Another important part of OSHA guidelines is demonstrating accident scenarios and reviewing safety and first aid concerns related to each type of climb.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Feb 21, 2017 - 08:06pm PT
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All of those things noted by Jon are in the category of training. No problem with that. Note that training is very different from performance. The employer can be required to only employ guides with appropriate training. But how can the employer guarantee that every action of the employee (e.g., tying a failsafe knot) will be correct?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Feb 21, 2017 - 08:12pm PT
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Typically worker safety regs require a quality assurance program. For climbing guides it could be as simple as telling employees to check their knots, maintain industry standards, etc. The employer can't check every knot but it can tell employees that is the expectation. In any case OSHA (and its state agency counterparts) insert themselves into any employment sitch so climbing guide services are not exempt just cause it's climbing. This event is unusual because the guide / employee died.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 21, 2017 - 08:13pm PT
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Well, if folks didn't make a business and and industry out of climbing - particularly with gyms - then workplace and OSHA regulations wouldn't be necessary. Want to make our sport a commercial industry? Well, whathtef*#kdidyouexpect...
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moacman
Trad climber
Montuckyian Via Canada Eh!
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Feb 21, 2017 - 08:44pm PT
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Used the knot for slings since 1965, taped them like P T P Pete, put a date on them, inspected them before climbing and would never ever trust one to hang from. Safety First........
Stevo
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Feb 21, 2017 - 09:36pm PT
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OSHA doesn't care about your avocation.
You want to climb as a business, with paying customers? Obey the law like any other business -- arborists, high rise window washers, timber fallers, contractors, flight instructors, lifeguards, etc...
Especially given that the clients in this incident seem to have been minors not adults.
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