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Anguish
Mountain climber
Jackson Hole Wyo.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 21, 2017 - 07:42am PT
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OSHA safety rules extend to unconventional workplaces, like the mountains, which the recreation industry is beginning to comprehend. In a probe of this tragic accident, Teton rangers re-publish two important papers showing how a water knot in 9/16-inch webbing will fail with repeated loading/unloading, in perhaps as few as 100 cycles.
http://www.wyofile.com/mountain-guide-death-leads-exum-fine/
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Feb 21, 2017 - 07:52am PT
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Thanks for posting
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2017 - 08:26am PT
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That's weird, .... as anyone that's used 9/16 tubular webbing knows the water knot is completely unreliable and comes apart so easily.
It's a known notorious problem with 9/16 tubular webbing especially aid climbers know this as the 9/16 tubular tie-offs come apart just hanging on the rack while climbing.
OSHA now getting involved in the climbing world?
Yowza, so scary .........
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Feb 21, 2017 - 08:33am PT
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Kind of hard to believe big guide services don't already have documented gear inspection protocols in place already.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Feb 21, 2017 - 10:09am PT
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...as anyone that's used 9/16 tubular webbing knows the water knot is completely unreliable and comes apart so easily.
As Werner knows, the original quick draws were invented by Yosemite climbers and were made up with 9/16" tubular webbing. I had a bunch of them, joined with water knots, and had the same experience: even when bounce-tightened, the knots eventually loosened and started "eating" their tails. So I switched to bounce-tightened double-fisherman's knots. They take up a little more space lengthwise and don't look as pretty, but they are absolutely stable.
Nowadays, most slings are sewn. It is sad that some of the old-school knowledge about things like this has been lost.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Feb 21, 2017 - 10:11am PT
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We're from the government, we're here to help.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Feb 21, 2017 - 10:31am PT
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as anyone that's used 9/16 tubular webbing knows the water knot is completely unreliable and comes apart so easily.
Yes completely. I have two alpine runners tied with water knots that I take on long routes, I often use these to trade out ancient stiff faded sling at rappel stations. But it's my habit when I plan to use these to retie and retighten the knots before leaving the ground. Every time. They tend to loosen up over time just taking the quickdraw rack in and out of the gear box!
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Matt's
climber
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Feb 21, 2017 - 10:37am PT
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I've never heard of a guide carry 8 feet of tubular webbing with them on a climb (what the guide used to tether himself at the belay station)-- is this a normal thing?
best,
matt
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Feb 21, 2017 - 10:48am PT
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OSHA now getting involved in the climbing world?
Yowza, so scary .........
they wouldn't have to if companies would follow safe basic procedures on their own. However
It's a known notorious problem with 9/16 tubular webbing especially aid climbers know this as the 9/16 tubular tie-offs come apart just hanging on the rack while climbing.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 21, 2017 - 10:51am PT
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Seems a guy like this probably knew, but maybe he's too young to remember the accidents and the discussions - like from like the 80's - and the danger just wasn't as ingrained and obvious. Guides like versatility, and a knotted sling is indeed more versatile. Guide types often seem to like a little bit of an old school look to their kit as well...
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Feb 21, 2017 - 11:19am PT
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I've noticed and commented a couple times when an old dad walked by with 1/2" tails on their shoulder sligs. So far all I got back was sass. They can accept the consequences, right?
This guy also fails for trusting his life to a single non-redundant sling. Should have had a second backup sling. That is really the worst offense.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 21, 2017 - 11:57am PT
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Can we talk about the EDK, please?
Bend over while the government conducts a probe, for your safety.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Feb 21, 2017 - 12:07pm PT
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so what is the preferred knot for a "wrap-three pull-two" style tree anchor?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2017 - 12:11pm PT
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A water knot works fine for a "wrap-three pull-two" style tree anchor.
You just have to make sure your knots are tied right and have sufficient tails .....
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Feb 21, 2017 - 12:20pm PT
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Is slippage a known problem with 1" also, or just narrower webbing?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2017 - 12:28pm PT
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9/16" water knot is the biggest culprit when not loaded.
There's really no slippage.
It's that the 9/16" water knot becomes loose when unloaded, unattended and bouncing around in the pack and/or on your rack.
YOSAR uses 1" tubular webbing but the ends are always stored untied.
That way to use 1" tubular webbing one needs to make the knots and simultaneously the knot gets inspected every time.
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clode
Trad climber
portland, or
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Feb 21, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
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When I started climbing in the early 70's, the Water Knot or Ring Bend was one of the first knots I learned how to tie. I never had any problems with them. Yeah, after a while they would tend to loosen a bit, but I always checked my knots (you should too, whichever ones you use), and would just re-dress them, you know, pulling on all four "corners" of the knot, several times, until it was tight again, and off I'd go. The webbing size made no difference, they all worked fine, as long as I paid attention to them.
Then along came the "Grapevine" knot, or Fisherman's Bend. It looked really ugly in webbing, but not so bad in perlon. Took longer to tie, took more material to tie, but did have a bit more security to it, in terms of not coming undone as easily as the Ring Bend.
To each his/her own.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Feb 21, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
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Thanks Werner. All my loose webbing is 1" and I keep it untied, same with the webbing we use in my fire department, so fortunately I've been accidentally protected from my ignorance on this.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 21, 2017 - 01:14pm PT
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Good luck at being able to quickly untie a cinched water knot.
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crøtch
climber
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Feb 21, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
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"This guy also fails for trusting his life to a single non-redundant sling. Should have had a second backup sling."
Amen. Many otherwise fatal errors are recoverable if redundancy is in place.
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