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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jan 12, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
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I think an undercurrent of this all is a deep need, a compulsion, that many if not all of us feel, to be accepted and appreciated, to be included in some sort of community. It is easy to dismiss this at a surface level, citing an independent free-wheeling spirit, enjoyment of time in solitude, being a "rebel" and not wanting to be part of a group (which in many cases is itself an identity that seeks out like-minded individuals to form a community), etc... but if you peel away the layers of the onion of your personality and look deep at the sources of what ails you, I'll bet that pops up more often than people acknowledge. In some cases the need to be accepted can have more of an influence on our behavior than our need to stay alive. Not logical, but we are all a mix of rational and emotional elements.
Edit: And maybe for some people who have always had this need met, it does not surface as a fundamental need until it is removed.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jan 12, 2017 - 05:25pm PT
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Instead of making a whole lot of assumptions about a "noobie" in a parking lot, a respectful person would answer the question with a number of questions. Like, how long have you been climbing, where, what sort of hard leads have you done? Have you free soloed anything before? How hard? Based upon the replies, one would say, "A person of your experience and ability normally would rope up for this climb." or, "You've free soloed harder stuff, you can probably do it, but watch out for this." I mean, what if it was Alex Honnold?
I don't feel the author made any original or profound observations about how social media affects various risk taking activities, and found her tone to be a bit condescending.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 12, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
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a respectful person would answer the question with a number of questions....
I would disagree, I think Katie is attempting to persuade people to ask those very questions of themselves before leaving the safe confines of a flat earth.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
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NutAgain wrote:
I think an undercurrent of this all is a deep need, a compulsion, that many if not all of us feel, to be accepted and appreciated, to be included in some sort of community.
Shelma Jun's recent writings and the speech she gave at the Access Fund's 25th anniversary dinner basically say the same thing though she seems to feel it is a gender acceptance issue.
Climbing has always been a meritocracy. Those doing the hardest routes get the most respect. When I lived in Camp 4 in the late 1970's, though I saw them everyday, I didn't look to Kauk, Bachar, Bard, Bridwell, etc, for validation of my efforts. I had my own group of climbers, two of which were women leading 5.10 cracks(!), for acceptance.
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Matt's
climber
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Jan 12, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
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Instead of making a whole lot of assumptions about a "noobie" in a parking lot, a respectful person would answer the question with a number of questions. Like, how long have you been climbing, where, what sort of hard leads have you done? Have you free soloed anything before? How hard? Based upon the replies, one would say, "A person of your experience and ability normally would rope up for this climb." or, "You've free soloed harder stuff, you can probably do it, but watch out for this." I mean, what if it was Alex Honnold?
My experience has been that a sizable percentage of climbers don't have an accurate assessment of their own skill level, so this sort of conversation is pretty hard to have with a stranger.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 12, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
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I didn't look to Kauk, Bachar, Bard, Bridwell, etc, for validation of my efforts.
I am confused. I thought successfully doing a route in style was all the validation one ever seeks. Have I missed something?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 12, 2017 - 07:16pm PT
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John, you've missed quite a few things.
In all the best ways.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Jan 12, 2017 - 07:43pm PT
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So Georgie Abel has moved on from being just a "famous climber's girlfriend" to telling us how we should interpret other women writers. Way to grow.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 12, 2017 - 08:32pm PT
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I read Katie's article and thought it would provoke a long topic on STForum, and having taken time to mull it over, the posts have grown rapidly... Katie's hiku-esque post to this thread neatly summarizes her points in Climbing, perhaps you could publish it alone in Alpinist and the readership there would understand, Climbing readership, not so much, so maybe that article is appropriately written.
When I read that article I had an immediate recall of a very disconcerting experience I had at the FaceLift a number of years ago. I was heading back from soloing After Six in the afternoon and ran into someone who recognized me, that is not unusual as I am generally over exposed on this forum... but given that I have little reason to believe that anyone would think to look up to me in terms of climbing, I'm not that accomplished.
So in this conversation I mentioned that I was making my way over to the next solo lap somewhere else, and this fellow thought it would be a great idea to solo After Six too... this wouldn't be so surprising for some climber familiar with the Valley, and knowing it was well within their ability, but this guy didn't know where Manure Pile was, and seemed to be relatively new to Valley climbing.
I was overcome with dread that he'd go off and actually try to on-sight the solo... for all I know he did and pulled it off, but I was very unhappy that I was some sort of initiator of this solo.
Be careful who your idols are as things aren't always what they seem.
I think a corollary to this is that be aware that you might actually be viewed as "an idol" to someone, and that they would seek to emulate you, or what they think is you...
Be honest with yourself about your ability and intentions.
My soloing comes and goes and it definitely depends on how much I've been climbing lately. One weekend I was in the 'Gunks and I had decided to solo something very easy, I hadn't felt particularly good that day, but I was there for only that day. I walked up to the base of the climb and there was some sort of class gathered there off to the side. I thought I'd just get through the bottom quickly and be left to myself. As I started up I heard the instructor quietly explaining what I was doing... it was very weird. Getting to an early crux, I couldn't get the class and the instructor out of my head, I down climbed, abandoning the solo, and soloing for that day.
It wasn't right.
Take responsibility and educate yourself.
I heard Ron Kauk pass along the a comment from Bridwell regarding soloing: "so much to loose, so little to gain." I think that is an important idea to keep in mind. I think there is something to be gained in soloing, it has to be balanced against the possibility that you could loose.
Honesty in assessing the balance is of paramount importance here.
It's all fun until it isn't.
Be good interpreters of the story of climbing.
I am writing about soloing here now, but after that encounter I don't write about it "in the foreground," we have all soloed in the mountains, on long routes, and even for just the pleasure of doing it. We enjoy the solitary nature of the solo, the intense individual experience, the connection with the flow. It is a demonstration of the mastery of climbing. But the other side of soloing is just as important. Interpretations that give us all of one side can lead to interpretations that the other side can be neglected.
It cannot.
The article was though provoking, and timely.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 13, 2017 - 07:52am PT
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Yep ^^^^
Americans do not know how to be simple anymore.
Their modern education makes them overly complex and KISS becomes non-existant .
Americans should go sit in a cave for 108 years and meditate to drain that swamp in their minds ......
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 13, 2017 - 08:48am PT
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I thought it was a thought provoking article. And, the responses here, also very interesting given the backgrounds of the posters.
As someone who's still reasonably active and social in/with the climbing community where I live, I run into wide ranges of experiences and abilities. Its a helluva soup out there!
Good stuff!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 13, 2017 - 09:01am PT
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That article should have a soundtrack provided by Nero's fiddling.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Jan 13, 2017 - 09:17am PT
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What's better - a good climb with bad photos or a bad, failed or unfinished climb with great photos?
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Burnin' Oil
Trad climber
CA
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Jan 13, 2017 - 11:22am PT
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Pedantic pud pulling.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jan 13, 2017 - 11:32am PT
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I think some good points are raised in the original article as well as the follow up articles (Ms. Abel may be snarky but she is pretty funny). I've pondered what I see as sort of a normalization of fringe practices on digital media. Soloing, weird rappelling tricks, simul-climbing, etc. None of that stuff is normal or routine but someone without some sort of core competence could look to the interworld and conclude there are good arguments for, say, rigging some funky rope retrieval method so you don't need to bring two ropes without being able to objectively evaluate whether there is even any advantage to what they are doing vs the relative risk.
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