Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 75 of total 75 in this topic |
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2017 - 11:03pm PT
|
It seems Katie's point is that the rise of blogs and instagram might lead a noob into thinking people who make that content are experts,
then might be led to free solo Matthes Crest.
But the noob should know better than to trust unedited media.
And it appears the noob at the start of the article did know better - he asked her in the parking lot if soloing it was "normal". Although his question sounds kind of dumb. I.e. "normal for experts, or normal for average folks". So her followup question "Have you soloed before?" probably helped.
|
|
Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 06:50am PT
|
She makes a good point.
|
|
chill
climber
The fat part of the bell-curve
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 08:11am PT
|
Summary: Author encounters an idiot in a parking lot and writes an article about it.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 08:41am PT
|
TLDR: I'm angry those I deem as lesser than me are getting all of the attention.
Nothing has changed as to who or what appears in the media or their caliber, IMO, there's just more of everything now. The jealousy and insecurity hasn't changed either.
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 09:29am PT
|
I don't think her point is to complain about who receives media attention; it's more of a rumination about how the constant barrage of "#rad!!!111 shots" from social media streams affects climbers' (not just noobs') risk perception. I think it's fairly similar to a discussion that came up on ST over the summer. One could argue that an individual should just ignore the prevailing culture, but in general it's nigh impossible to remain impervious to culture.
Edit:
there's just more of everything now As more and more people climb 5.13, 5.6 becomes "easier" in the community's eyes. I think the unfortunate side effect is that common/easy things are also perceived as "safer"--but no matter how many people are out climbing hard, the objective danger of mountains is not changing.
|
|
micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 10:05am PT
|
I have walked way out to the edge of more than one cornice for just the right photo op over the years. Social media totally affects me and my judgement......I do all kinds of idiotic things now that I can edit and post it and gain admiration so quickly. Its like a drug to me. Seriously. Its a good thing I'm not a better climber or into soloing. I would totally be swayed by the opportunity to get rad on Insta if I had more than 16 followers.
#selfieking
#summitsdontcountwithoutaselfie
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Released into general population, Idaho
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 10:40am PT
|
Define "normal"
|
|
nathanael
climber
CA
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 11:14am PT
|
This is definitely a relevant article. I made a recent trip to Joshua Tree with a few friends of varying skill levels. One girl, who is very active on social media and all that, mentioned she would like to try an easy free solo. I was surprised, because she's only ever led a few sport routes and has never taken any offers to learn to place gear and trad lead, etc.
Anyways, I'm not really one to tell someone they can't try something, especially since she really thought she was capable and prepared. Plus I feel like just hearing "no you're not ready" just glamorizes it more. She was suggesting something like "The Eye", a route she'd seen her friends soloing on a previous trip. But at the same time I knew she would definitely panic and die is she actually tried to solo the eye or something similar.
Later in the day I found a cool 4th/low 5th class chimney that let you scramble up onto a tower. I climbed up and told her to solo up to me. After about 10' she stopped and said she didn't like it because if she fell she would get hurt. (real lightbulb moment...) I went back down to grab a rope for a toprope and watched her struggle up it (turning 5.2 chimney moves into 5.10 face climbing), then tried to get her to downclimb it on toprope and kept hearing calls for a tighter belay. She didn't ask to solo anymore after that.
Anyways all this to say, it's not an isolated thing. People really do look at that social media (and social pressure in real life) and get caught up in the image thing without comprehending what risk, exposure, etc really means and it builds a disconnect between the image of smiling soloers and and the reality of if you fck up you die.
|
|
Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 11:30am PT
|
Nice post, cat t.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 11:32am PT
|
especially since she really thought she was capable and prepared.
perfect!
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 11:50am PT
|
The whole article is basically about not being good enough for the fame. The soloist dying thing is an excuse for cover. A noob interrupted her "we're too rad" narc bro sesh. Must have been rough. I've read a ton of these snips over the years. They are mostly written by and about women.
|
|
caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 12:00pm PT
|
The instabrag is a double edged sword. People use it in different ways.
I have found that if I don't follow accounts that have a greater than 5% selfie ratio, I enjoy it more and weed out obnoxious self promotion. YMMV
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 12:11pm PT
|
The whole article is basically about not being good enough for the fame. The soloist dying thing is an excuse for cover. A noob interrupted her "we're too rad" narc bro sesh. Must have been rough. I've read a ton of these snips over the years. They are mostly written by and about women.
This is a spectacularly snarky and judgmental interpretation of Katie's motives, even by the standards of this anonymous poster. Wow, what an as5hole.
As someone who has recently climbed alone and ropeless for the express purpose of sticking pictures of the event on the interwebz to amuse my friends, I can testify to the queasy feeling that such an outing causes. It would feel super-effing-stupid to blow it on a mission like that, and the inner dialogue arising from this constant awareness was in no way helpful. I won't be doing that again- more because once is enough, but also because the whole 'watching myself do something' meta-feeling detracts too much from the enjoyment of moving around on rocks that I truly prefer.
[more, later (but not much)]
I think the piece is well-considered, well-argued, and makes the appropriate caveats for a general audience. The fact that it appears on the Climbing website strikes me as particularly pertinent, since (as a friend who writes for them put it) the target audience is people who "have been climbing for two years and live in the midwest."
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 12:21pm PT
|
The whole article is basically about not being good enough for the fame. The soloist dying thing is an excuse for cover. I think this is way off base. I personally feel a bit sick inside when I see overzealous noobs trivializing the inherent dangers of climbing, and I am 100% positive that it's not because I think they're not good enough for fame. If jealousy enters into it, it's because I'm jealous of the carefree nature of people who haven't lost good friends in climbing accidents.
|
|
StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 12:57pm PT
|
Andy saw this coming, David is not sure he approves of risking death to achieve it for 15 minutes, or less.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
|
The sum substance of this article is
In 1968 I free soloed Cathedral Peak in my Sears work boots and met the Sierra Club climbing leader at the Top who told me I had balls but was still a stoopid n00b.
Now in 2017 I'm told we are still stoopid n00bs ...... :-)
|
|
Killer K
Boulder climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 01:27pm PT
|
Natural Selection.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 01:27pm PT
|
surely there was some source for your early/continued madness?
Because it was there.
Werner's wiggle was done by Eric Beck.
I didn't put that up ......
|
|
StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
|
I helped rescue someone trying to solo Werner's Wiggle. He was screaming (well maybe whimpering) for help while Tom Burke and I were coming down. Tom stayed and tried to calm him down while I went back up and lowered him a rope and a harness. He was nice enough to buy us some beer once he stopped shaking.
|
|
AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 02:50pm PT
|
From the piece written by Katie :
but today, the social media explosion has led to an oversaturation and a loss of our sport’s soul.
I disagree.
Soul's still there. Why is a person with 40 years experience more soul-filled than a newbie on their first climb? We were all n00bs once.
Every generation loses a little soul, happens in all sports.
Werner’s onsite solo of Cathedral peak in his Sears’ work boots had soul and will soon never be repeated, Sears is going out of business.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 07:09pm PT
|
Not a bad article, but most serious climbers are aware of all this. Mostly preaching to the choir. I can see why Climbing Magazine is not in great shape.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 09:28pm PT
|
Hmm. Didn't realize she is a scientist. Has (or working on) an MS in nutrition. But more of a full-time climber it seems.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2017 - 11:27pm PT
|
The urge to document is fundamentally human, going back to 40,000 year-old instagrams in Indonesian caves. Did the remarkable drawings of predators in the Chauvet Caves in France cause our ancestors 30,000 years ago to fail to fully appreciate the danger of lions? Was the hunt in danger of losing its soul---or did it not acquire a soul until, like climbing, it became a sporting pursuit with absolutely no relevance to human survival?
Can this basic human drive, bolstered by internet technology, end up in some destructive spiral? To some extent, Katie's lament is like the stories we've been reading about fake news and its purported effect on the US electorate. The internet has produced a kind of flattening of the three-dimensional world of facts, and the two-dimensional rendering seems to have far less resolution than reality requires, enabling the unconflicted coexistence of nonsense and deep meaning. We used to be entitled to our opinions but not to our facts, now opinions and facts are in some cases both indistinguishable and interchangeable.
It isn't just facts that have been blurred. The democratization of achievement provided by social media means that everyone has a shot at being a hero, a situation surely of great concern to the IHU (International Hero's Union), which would like to keep a tight rein on the provenance of heroism, something that requires the now-vanishing concept of facts as well as the also-waning concept of experts who could render informed judgements.
When I started climbing, fear was a constant component. We aspired, as Pete Sinclair wrote, but with a lot of butterflies in our guts. When Pete spoke of his contemporaries as the last innocent Americans, did he mean the last people to fully embrace and contend with fear in their lives? Climbing technology has blunted and in many cases utterly erased the earlier fears, opening up the enterprise to people who would never have tolerated it before, and nudging the concept of achievement in a more purely physical direction. Was the soul of climbing forged in a crucible of fear and the resources needed to deal with it, or does the essence of that soul live somewhere else? Does Ashima Shiraishi understand less about climbing than Hermann Buhl did?
You have to care a lot about climbing to think that any of this matters. I think some of us do, inexplicably, care about climbing. It has illuminated our lives and, in our best moments, we wish for that light, however mysterious its source, to continue to shine for future generations. In this way, climbing acquires a soul, because we have souls that have been touched by climbing. Can that collective soul survive the changes that progress has wrought? Is Instagram really the devil's instrument in this regard?
I'm not even remotely qualified to judge, as I have no interactions with social media. But I can't help feeling Katie is a bit too pessimistic, viewing extremes as in some way characteristic, rather than as the aberrations one has to expect when an activity gains in popularity.
Whether it be cave paintings, books, magazine articles, or Instagram posts, communicating about things removes some of their mystery, makes them more approachable, and so invites an ever-widening array of participants. Perhaps the soul of climbing, whatever that really is, becomes more deeply cocooned as the population expands and the potential for consensus diminishes. But I think it is still there, powerful as ever, even if the din and hurly-burly of modern life have made it somewhat less visible.
|
|
katiebird
climber
yosemite
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 02:44am PT
|
Be careful who your idols are as things aren't always what they seem.
Be honest with yourself about your ability and intentions.
Take responsibility and educate yourself.
Be good interpreters of the story of climbing.
|
|
Degaine
climber
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 03:13am PT
|
As always, great post, rgold.
|
|
Degaine
climber
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 03:26am PT
|
sycorax wrote:
It's not very well-written. The opening dialogue needs an edit and she uses forms of the verb to be instead of stronger ones that experienced writers employ. But then again, I am an English teacher not a mighty scientist.
If you are truly as proficient in proper written English as you claim, you would not have used a contraction (it's), nor would you have used "but" to start a sentence. Both examples fall in the same category as the overuse of a form of be instead of a more active verb.
"Experienced writers," regardless of fame or fortune, shine not only due to their ability to tell a story, but also due to their own personal style, often toeing the line or simply disregarding those rules that get in the way.
Would you write the same gibberish about e.e. cummings or Kurt Vonnegut? Closer to home, are DMT's or Rgold's ramblings diminished in quality when they use too many forms of be?
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 09:05am PT
|
Stoopid is the new black, but only if you 'share' it.
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 09:41am PT
|
The real take-away for me in Katie's piece was when the
non cool kid says "That's why I'm asking".
I can almost see the scene how it actually went down, and it seems pretty normal-
someone asking for real life beta or confirmation from locals, on a route they're interested in.
Out-of-towner/noob/whoever gets heckled.
It very easily could have been a photo in a magazine or guidebook, and not social media, that spurred the question in years past.
I'm sure the exact scene has played out many times before....
Before social media.
I liked Georgie's piece.
Even though she's one of the coolkids, she has a special knack for calling out the coolkids.
The real difference between the two pieces-
Print media vs online self publishing.
Go Georgie.
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 09:45am PT
|
Why does Georgie Abel have to turn the snark hose to full blast every time she writes a blog post? Nuance can exist...
It's not so simple as "social media is the source of evil and has sucked the soul out of climbing." I think the issue is more that if there exists something unhealthy about a given subculture, then social media will allow that idea to spread wider, faster. It could do the same for a good idea, of course.
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 10:01am PT
|
Why does Georgie Abel have to turn the snark hose to full blast every time she writes a blog post?
Because there are no editors or advertising interests standing in her way.
Guaranteed once the would-be Mathes kid split, the snark hose in the lot behind the Meadows store was blasting.
But that doesn't make into Climbing Mag.
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 10:07am PT
|
I suppose that's probably true re: parking lot snark.
Many of my peers (late 20s/early 30s) have expressed the sentiment, "I got rid of this social media platform because I didn't like the influence it had on me." Not "social media is evil," but "my personal experience with social media was that it made me feel less sincere." Reading Georgie's post felt like someone shouting "No that's not true; you're wrong; you didn't feel that and in reality you are just territorial and hate the people who use it."
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 10:09am PT
|
You people shouldn't take yourselves so seriously.
It's nothing, no big thing at all.
"Just climb it", was what Ron Kauk said.
I'd rather do an oil change than bother with most of this modern climbing yaking bullsh!t .....
|
|
seano
Mountain climber
none
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 10:13am PT
|
Why does Georgie Abel have to turn the snark hose to full blast every time she writes a blog post? I think she's just found some writing styles that get the attention she wants, and this is one of them. I'm not into it, but if it works for her, so be it.
|
|
chill
climber
The fat part of the bell-curve
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 10:13am PT
|
I'd rather do an oil change than bother with most of this modern climbing yaking bullsh!t .....
And yet, Werner, here you are.
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 10:29am PT
|
Well said 5:30.
(follow me on IG)
;-)
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 11:08am PT
|
an acknowledgment that the "Hype Machine" is real and has consequences
Stepping outside of the climbing world, there are plenty of accounts on Instagram that are paid by various sponsors for product placement in every post. I believe they're referred to as "Instagram influencers." If you aren't aware of this, it may just appear that these accounts are normal, real people with really cool lives.
These ads-masquerading-as-people definitely influence other aspects of culture. I don't know how much this has permeated climbing.
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 11:10am PT
|
Um Kevin, couple things:
1) Passing down the hard-forged wisdom of your noble & lonely challenges etc etc is not an obligation, but like most things, it's cooler if you share.
2) As you acknowledge in your very next sentence, sometimes climbing is about the high, lonesome struggle at the limits of your ability, and sometimes it's about pulling down. They're both OK.
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 11:14am PT
|
Adventure has to be self inspired to be real.
Wut?
Get inspiration from wherever the f uck you want.
Your own adventure is what'll be real.
Where did you get your inspiration bitd Kevin?
Because nowadays lots of people young and old get it through the internet/social media.
Same thing as seeing a b+w pic of Frost or Kamps and saying "I want THAT!"
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 11:24am PT
|
it seems as though a lot of name-brand (I mean that term literally) climbers get paid to advertise.
In broad strokes, I think yes?
I think the current style of media consumption has truly made it harder to distinguish which things are paid advertising and which are genuine. The soul hasn't gone out of climbing (or fashion, or cooking, or painting, or whatever else you follow on social media), but marketing money has grown sneakier.
|
|
seano
Mountain climber
none
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 11:28am PT
|
The spirit and heart of climbing can only be truly felt through instinct and experience. Well put, Warbler. While I've no doubt been lucky, I believe "instinct and experience" are a big part of the reason I've survived "climbing" so far. Or maybe it's "prudence and patience." To the small extent that I've done things for publicity, I've done them against my better judgement.
|
|
BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2017 - 11:28am PT
|
I had a discussion with Dougald McDonald about advertising in the climbing world last year. As a former editor of several publications, it was Dougald's observation that a lot of climbng-related companies are spending their advertising dollars on producing videos, etc. which are then put on the Internet rather than traditional ads in publications. Social media is probably a good way to get the message out to millenials if that is your target market.
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 11:32am PT
|
Well no, the soul is still there, and climbing is strong enough to withstand the serial assaults on its soul that rgold listed. But it as media gets cleverer at insinuating itself into our minds, it gets harder and harder to for one to separate the images from the internal stoke. Given this, I think we'd all do well to embark on periodic cleanses from all the spray, i.e., go cold turkey on the interwebz and just spend time outside groovin' out.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 11:34am PT
|
But I think the shortest answer to the parking lot query... Yes. That would have been a normal, polite response to the question.
But that's not what happened here and that's why I thought the energy to go spew on the internet about the encounter therefore had nothing to do with soloing and Instagram and everything to do with her own insecurity.
"Locals" and their parking lot snark = there is no way I'm going to foster someone coming in and reducing my entire life's work to their 10 seconds on Instagram.
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 11:35am PT
|
But it as media gets cleverer at insinuating itself into our minds, it gets harder and harder to for one to separate the images from the internal stoke. Given this, I think we'd all do well to embark on periodic cleanses from all the spray, i.e., go cold turkey on the interwebz and just spend time outside groovin' out.
Totally agree.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 11:41am PT
|
Reading this thread feels like visiting the nursing home where "real" men know how to navigate without those newfangled wheelchairs.
I thought the article was excellent, and what it is talking about is a major change in how new climbers entering the sport think and get information...and will commit to serious attempts without traditional preparation.
No, they are not figuring out force-factors on slide rules (like we all do). No, they are not pulling out compasses to check direction(like we all do).
I have found the same thing happening, with far less potential consequences, in the backpacking world. My old climbing partner who runs Vermillion resort, which caters to backpackers, told me this summer that he was seeing a wholesale phenomenon of drastically unprepared hikers, that he'd never seen the like of. So this seems to transcend climbing.
|
|
Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 11:51am PT
|
While you guys were busy trying to dissect what Katie meant, I believe she posted in the thread. Why not just ask her?
Be careful who your idols are as things aren't always what they seem.
Be honest with yourself about your ability and intentions.
Take responsibility and educate yourself.
Be good interpreters of the story of climbing
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 11:57am PT
|
Warbs
But I never had a mentor or shaped my perspective of the spirit of climbing through a veteran's experience. I discovered it on my own, as it should be.
Well I don't know about "as it should be" but whatevs.
The world, and climbing are much different now, obviously.
And I think Georgie's point about mentor ship is valid, especially with many climbers getting into climbing without any foundation in nature.
Mentorships will only help with personal safety and hopefully our impact on the environment too.
I knew you were semi-trolling. All good.
My inspiration came much like yours- I loved rock and lysergic adventure scrambling. Soon enough I saw photos of Croft, or Moffatt.
We were all Barneys once- sh¡t, I still am.
I got vibed by a local at the Happies for asking a simple question lol.
(I think he was put off that I didn't recognize him from his social lol)
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 12:37pm PT
|
Be careful who your idols are as things aren't always what they seem.
Be honest with yourself about your ability and intentions.
Take responsibility and educate yourself.
Be good interpreters of the story of climbing
I think what Katie says here is the real meat. Well said.
She (you:-) ) have always impressed me as being pretty pure, and with good intentions and impressive talent.
Perhaps the Meadows Store incident brought about Katie's looking into her own role in the depiction of climbing on social media. As a high(er) profile climber and industry player, with an active (and beautiful) IG account herself, its a good thing to portray or cultivate her online presence in a way that will be beneficial to climbers and climbing.
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 01:06pm PT
|
And this is where the story gets weird, because right as I hung up the phone, I started thinking ahead to the future, and the inevitable article I’d write, Instagrams I’d post, and Twitters I’d tweet, glorifying our weekend excursion, which hadn’t even taken place yet.
Ha! I liked his post. No real solution, of course, but honest observations.
|
|
Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 01:06pm PT
|
Somewhere along the way "pics or it didn't happen" turned into only the pics happening.
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
|
Thanks jefe. AB kinda nails it there.
It's hard to be a transparent eyeball when you're looking through a screen.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 02:46pm PT
|
Pretty soon the conversation will drift to placing the extra bolt on Superpin.
|
|
Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 03:13pm PT
|
"What does 'dry and under a lot of tension' mean"?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 03:29pm PT
|
Such an amazing tool, but such a distraction.
I did an article in Climbing back in the '70s called "The Evolution Of Ego In Eden" which was about our coming up on our own in the hollows of SoIll finding our own way in climbing. We were a small cadre, had the place to ourselves and everything we touched was an FA. Then we made our first trip to Eldo and were stunned - I mean stunned - at the social context, hierarchy, status, hero worship, etc. that we found there. It caused us to wonder what it would have been like to have learned to climb in such an established area and so thankful we came up in isolation.
After a few Eldo trips and one to the Gunks where we found a similar social context / fabric, I intended to write another article called "The Socialization Of Ego In Eden", but fortunately ended up thinking better of it. And after the advent of battery-powered drills and the rise of sport climbing and the splitting of climbing's social order I was tempted to write another article called "The Mechanization Of Ego In Eden".
If I had done the series, I would likely been on to one about the climbing world and its society going on-line and the impact of that on individuals entering the sport and I think Katie does a decent job of describing some of the impacts. A key point for me is that today climbing happens within the context of an immediate and almost inescapable social fabric that places a lot of emphasis and currency on the 'branding' of each individual in almost real-time. The pressure and temptation to compare oneself with not only media-level climbing personalities, but with one's local and regional peers is almost unavoidable today and in ways where there are real and immediate telegraphing of where you are at or stand relative to everyone else.
Also, in the past thirty years with people coming up through gyms and sport climbing, climbing itself has become far more of a group social activity than it was in past bringing a lot more peer psychology to play even off-line out at the crag (not that anyone is really off-line at most crags these days). Add to that climbing's near-complete integration into everyday commercial advertising and imagery and I don't think Katie is wrong or off-base in pointing out that one's personal identity as a climber can be quite different today and that identity can be hard to separate from those around you or those presented in the media. And because of that 'blurring' of self-identity with group-identity I think she's right in saying people will take on things they probably aren't ready for because it appears to be a kind of 'norm' in either their immediate social fabric or in some larger online or commercial context - i.e. with something like soloing, a person might not just be weighing their individual readiness, but also is factoring in the readiness of the peer and online groups they feel they share identity with. Katie's just saying when it comes to leaving the ground you should leave all that group identity, status, etc. behind and just operate purely as an individual and get real about what you are capable of and ready for which I agree can be easier said than done in today's world.
I know it's hard for lot of us older folks to get our head around how anyone could stand at the base of a rock and not be assessing our chances solely on our own capabilities, experience and readiness, but Katie's pointing out just how pervasive the influence of others are today and how it can overrule what we'd consider just plain common sense.
Crazy, but it's a different world out there and it would be hard to have the isolated kind of coming up that we were lucky enough to have had back down in the hollers.
|
|
steve s
Trad climber
eldo
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 04:23pm PT
|
Jgill, What would Pete Cleveland think of this conversation? Knowing Pete he would suggest more climbing less talking.... and another glass of wine please. Cheers
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 04:28pm PT
|
Blogs and instagrams....great way to get more bang then the buck diserves. Telling it your way and having a vast majority of the public take it verbatim is the stuff that wet dreams for death row inmates are made of.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
|
There's a Darwinian aspect to combining climbing and social media that's just inescapable for some folks.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
|
I think an undercurrent of this all is a deep need, a compulsion, that many if not all of us feel, to be accepted and appreciated, to be included in some sort of community. It is easy to dismiss this at a surface level, citing an independent free-wheeling spirit, enjoyment of time in solitude, being a "rebel" and not wanting to be part of a group (which in many cases is itself an identity that seeks out like-minded individuals to form a community), etc... but if you peel away the layers of the onion of your personality and look deep at the sources of what ails you, I'll bet that pops up more often than people acknowledge. In some cases the need to be accepted can have more of an influence on our behavior than our need to stay alive. Not logical, but we are all a mix of rational and emotional elements.
Edit: And maybe for some people who have always had this need met, it does not surface as a fundamental need until it is removed.
|
|
aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 05:25pm PT
|
Instead of making a whole lot of assumptions about a "noobie" in a parking lot, a respectful person would answer the question with a number of questions. Like, how long have you been climbing, where, what sort of hard leads have you done? Have you free soloed anything before? How hard? Based upon the replies, one would say, "A person of your experience and ability normally would rope up for this climb." or, "You've free soloed harder stuff, you can probably do it, but watch out for this." I mean, what if it was Alex Honnold?
I don't feel the author made any original or profound observations about how social media affects various risk taking activities, and found her tone to be a bit condescending.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
|
a respectful person would answer the question with a number of questions....
I would disagree, I think Katie is attempting to persuade people to ask those very questions of themselves before leaving the safe confines of a flat earth.
|
|
BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
|
NutAgain wrote:
I think an undercurrent of this all is a deep need, a compulsion, that many if not all of us feel, to be accepted and appreciated, to be included in some sort of community.
Shelma Jun's recent writings and the speech she gave at the Access Fund's 25th anniversary dinner basically say the same thing though she seems to feel it is a gender acceptance issue.
Climbing has always been a meritocracy. Those doing the hardest routes get the most respect. When I lived in Camp 4 in the late 1970's, though I saw them everyday, I didn't look to Kauk, Bachar, Bard, Bridwell, etc, for validation of my efforts. I had my own group of climbers, two of which were women leading 5.10 cracks(!), for acceptance.
|
|
Matt's
climber
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
|
Instead of making a whole lot of assumptions about a "noobie" in a parking lot, a respectful person would answer the question with a number of questions. Like, how long have you been climbing, where, what sort of hard leads have you done? Have you free soloed anything before? How hard? Based upon the replies, one would say, "A person of your experience and ability normally would rope up for this climb." or, "You've free soloed harder stuff, you can probably do it, but watch out for this." I mean, what if it was Alex Honnold?
My experience has been that a sizable percentage of climbers don't have an accurate assessment of their own skill level, so this sort of conversation is pretty hard to have with a stranger.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
|
I didn't look to Kauk, Bachar, Bard, Bridwell, etc, for validation of my efforts.
I am confused. I thought successfully doing a route in style was all the validation one ever seeks. Have I missed something?
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 07:16pm PT
|
John, you've missed quite a few things.
In all the best ways.
|
|
canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 07:43pm PT
|
So Georgie Abel has moved on from being just a "famous climber's girlfriend" to telling us how we should interpret other women writers. Way to grow.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2017 - 08:32pm PT
|
I read Katie's article and thought it would provoke a long topic on STForum, and having taken time to mull it over, the posts have grown rapidly... Katie's hiku-esque post to this thread neatly summarizes her points in Climbing, perhaps you could publish it alone in Alpinist and the readership there would understand, Climbing readership, not so much, so maybe that article is appropriately written.
When I read that article I had an immediate recall of a very disconcerting experience I had at the FaceLift a number of years ago. I was heading back from soloing After Six in the afternoon and ran into someone who recognized me, that is not unusual as I am generally over exposed on this forum... but given that I have little reason to believe that anyone would think to look up to me in terms of climbing, I'm not that accomplished.
So in this conversation I mentioned that I was making my way over to the next solo lap somewhere else, and this fellow thought it would be a great idea to solo After Six too... this wouldn't be so surprising for some climber familiar with the Valley, and knowing it was well within their ability, but this guy didn't know where Manure Pile was, and seemed to be relatively new to Valley climbing.
I was overcome with dread that he'd go off and actually try to on-sight the solo... for all I know he did and pulled it off, but I was very unhappy that I was some sort of initiator of this solo.
Be careful who your idols are as things aren't always what they seem.
I think a corollary to this is that be aware that you might actually be viewed as "an idol" to someone, and that they would seek to emulate you, or what they think is you...
Be honest with yourself about your ability and intentions.
My soloing comes and goes and it definitely depends on how much I've been climbing lately. One weekend I was in the 'Gunks and I had decided to solo something very easy, I hadn't felt particularly good that day, but I was there for only that day. I walked up to the base of the climb and there was some sort of class gathered there off to the side. I thought I'd just get through the bottom quickly and be left to myself. As I started up I heard the instructor quietly explaining what I was doing... it was very weird. Getting to an early crux, I couldn't get the class and the instructor out of my head, I down climbed, abandoning the solo, and soloing for that day.
It wasn't right.
Take responsibility and educate yourself.
I heard Ron Kauk pass along the a comment from Bridwell regarding soloing: "so much to loose, so little to gain." I think that is an important idea to keep in mind. I think there is something to be gained in soloing, it has to be balanced against the possibility that you could loose.
Honesty in assessing the balance is of paramount importance here.
It's all fun until it isn't.
Be good interpreters of the story of climbing.
I am writing about soloing here now, but after that encounter I don't write about it "in the foreground," we have all soloed in the mountains, on long routes, and even for just the pleasure of doing it. We enjoy the solitary nature of the solo, the intense individual experience, the connection with the flow. It is a demonstration of the mastery of climbing. But the other side of soloing is just as important. Interpretations that give us all of one side can lead to interpretations that the other side can be neglected.
It cannot.
The article was though provoking, and timely.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2017 - 07:52am PT
|
Yep ^^^^
Americans do not know how to be simple anymore.
Their modern education makes them overly complex and KISS becomes non-existant .
Americans should go sit in a cave for 108 years and meditate to drain that swamp in their minds ......
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2017 - 08:48am PT
|
I thought it was a thought provoking article. And, the responses here, also very interesting given the backgrounds of the posters.
As someone who's still reasonably active and social in/with the climbing community where I live, I run into wide ranges of experiences and abilities. Its a helluva soup out there!
Good stuff!
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2017 - 09:01am PT
|
That article should have a soundtrack provided by Nero's fiddling.
|
|
Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2017 - 09:17am PT
|
What's better - a good climb with bad photos or a bad, failed or unfinished climb with great photos?
|
|
Burnin' Oil
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2017 - 11:22am PT
|
Pedantic pud pulling.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2017 - 11:32am PT
|
I think some good points are raised in the original article as well as the follow up articles (Ms. Abel may be snarky but she is pretty funny). I've pondered what I see as sort of a normalization of fringe practices on digital media. Soloing, weird rappelling tricks, simul-climbing, etc. None of that stuff is normal or routine but someone without some sort of core competence could look to the interworld and conclude there are good arguments for, say, rigging some funky rope retrieval method so you don't need to bring two ropes without being able to objectively evaluate whether there is even any advantage to what they are doing vs the relative risk.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 75 of total 75 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!