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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sun, you really are an idiot. Apparently, that is your religion. Enjoy!
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Bolts placed for life safety are a pretty big responsibility whether in the wilderness or not. An untrained power driller can place a lot of bolts in oversized holes in just one afternoon. I think it would be pretty hard to ream out the hole with a hand drill. I wonder if anyone here ever cleaned out the hole by running the drill in and out a couple of times or let it chatter at the bottom of the hole a couple of seconds. I know I did at work and got hollered at for it. Ever wonder why so many bolts out there have a bunch of threads showing? I know that I could commit a multitude of sin in about 5 seconds and no one would ever know unless the bolt failed or it was removed at some future point. Just my thoughts on this fine day :-)
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ManMountain
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I believe the USFS, BLM,and NPS use power tools to make trails in low angle Wilderness....
I believe not, though things may have changed since the seventies when I worked for BLM and USFS for ten years. Part of my job was trail maintenance and building a few new trails, and firefighting. On non-wilderness land, Bob's your uncle; chain saws, power drills, Tote-Goats, gasoline pumps, helicopters, 4x4s, Tracksters and more (even Tovex). On designated Wilderness land, no motorized equipment allowed, hand tools only, horse-mules-your feet for transportation, crosscut saws instead of chainsaws; you get the picture.
Oddly, the rules didn't piss us off. It was hourly pay so things just went a lot slower in Wilderness areas.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Power drill - another thing to make climbing less strenuous and challenging. Logical progression: electric winch for haul bags, power ascenders? The more you mechanize climbing the less challenging it becomes. Perhaps FAs could be graded on whether or not mechanized equipment was used.
Either way, mechanized stuff degrades a natural experience.
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couchmaster
climber
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I live in a glass house. I'm not tossing any rocks. Carry on. And on.
Edit - power drilling in "designated" or "official" wilderness? OK never done that.
In "The" wilderness. Lots. You don't need someone to tell you that you are in the wilderness. You'll know it cause it's way the F** beyond cars, cell phones, people, rescues, etc etc.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Bottom line...power drills are not allowed in Wilderness Areas and base jumping is not permitted in National Parks and people who flaunt those restrictions do everyone a disservice.
You don't usually change restrictions by openly disobeying them.
Snowmobilers and dirt bikers sometimes are caught in restricted areas on public lands and we applaud that. If we want other user groups who are not members of the "tribe" to behave we should do the same.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Once upon a time smoking weed was illegal in all 50. Driving over the posted speed limit is still illegal in all 50.
Did any of us ever ask on a forum for others' thoughts on breaking the above laws?
Now if I were to drill in a wilderness, would or need I ask anyone?
It seems you can break the law anytime you want and if you get caught, you pay those particular consequences de facto. Hence we see odorless e pipes and tinted glass or we see radar detectors and just maybe we have seen a Bosch Bulldog silencer?
Really, can one tell a hand drilled placement from a silenced power drilled placement?
Pots do call kettles black.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sounds reasonable Dingus as long as you don't try to skewer that snowmobiler roaring by you with the same reasonable disregard for regulations.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Donini,
I'll let the law officers do law enforcement and apprehension but I just may flip the finger at snow mobiler,
But I would not tackle Jim Buyer for running a permit needed river without a permit nor would I stalk you down for failing to register at Devils Tower.
Nor do I get reason to stalk when I hear drilling in the wilderness. Nor would I chase down an Interstate speeder or report a meth operation.
But I would help someone yelling for help when they were physically hurt or getting attacked..
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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kingnut,
please keep in mind I have not stated which laws I would break.
also please keep in mind those managers already have an idea that some will break the law.
As I say, you get caught you pay the consequences.
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ryankelly
Trad climber
Bhumi
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good to see climbing discussion on these pages
for those who haven't read Appendix J of Sequoia / Kings Wilderness Stewardship read on:
full appendix linked here: https://parkplanning.nps.gov/showFile.cfm?projectID=33225&MIMEType=application%252Fpdf&filename=WSPFEIS%5FAppendix%5FJ%5FClimbingMgmt%2Epdf&sfid=206380
PUBLIC USE OF FIXED ANCHORS
Fixed anchors consist of webbing, bolts, pitons, chains, and other devices and equipment permanently or semi-permanently attached to rocks (or other natural features) that are left in place after the activity. These are, for the purposes of this strategy, divided into two categories: 1) permanent anchors (e.g., bolts), and 2) removable or abandoned (semi-permanent) anchors (e.g., slings with or without accompanying hardware such as carabiners).
NPS Director’s Order #41 (DO #41) establishes that “Authorization will be required for the placement of new fixed anchors or fixed equipment. Authorization may be required for the replacement or removal of existing fixed anchors or fixed equipment. The authorization process to be followed will be established at the park level and will be based on a consideration of resource issues (including the wilderness resource) and recreation opportunities. Authorization may be issued programmatically within the Wilderness Stewardship Plan or other activity-level plan, or specifically on a case-by-case basis, such as through a permit system.” And “If unacceptable impacts are occurring in wilderness as a result of climbing, the park superintendent may deem it necessary to restrict or prohibit the placement of fixed anchors.”
For the purposes of this strategy, those fixed anchors, both permanent and removable/abandoned, which are currently in place may remain.
Permanent fixed-anchors (e.g., bolts or pitons), may be placed, or replaced by individual climbers only with prior approval (see permit system below) or in the rare case of emergency. Existing bolts may be removed by individual climbers, without prior permission, if they are deemed unusable or unsafe. The climber should then communicate details of the removal to the parks (through the Chief Ranger’s Office).
Removable (or abandoned and semi-permanent) fixed-anchors (e.g., slings, nuts, or other clean climbing hardware) may be replaced or removed by individual climbers as necessary without prior approval. New semi-permanent rappel or retreat fixed-anchors may also be placed by individual climbers without prior approval, with the strong advisory to leave only the minimum necessary slings or hardware to safely descend or retreat from wilderness climbing routes, in order to keep wilderness climbing routes as free of abandoned slings and hardware as possible. The setting up of fixed-anchors for top-roping is strongly discouraged. When replacing existing slings or hardware, it is incumbent on the individual climber to carry old equipment out of wilderness and to dispose of it properly. Climbers are also strongly encouraged to remove any unsafe/unusable equipment from wilderness for proper disposal.
Appendix J
Climbing Management Strategy
J-7
Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks Wilderness Stewardship Plan/FEIS
New, bolt-intensive climbing routes (i.e., “sport climbs”) are not appropriate in wilderness and are expressly prohibited.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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I sometimes wish the laws were different but mostly respect them accept when I don't.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Maybe it's not so black and white. Donini's point is a valid one. But there are some wrinkles.
For example I could name a bunch of "designated wilderness" which simply isn't wilderness. In Joshua Tree there is "wilderness" less than 1/4 mile from the road out by Split Rock.
There's the "Domelands Wilderness". My blood pressure just went up thinking about this one. Before 1960 they logged the crap out of the place. Then in 1964 they declared the area wilderness. All of the old logging roads which climbers had used for years to access the many remote domes were closed. Domelands was, and would continue to be, a climber's paradise if it had remained BLM land, and it would be none the worse off for it. Have I used a Bosch in there? I'll leave it up to you to speculate.
That said I really prefer to hand drill, and that's what I've mostly done (other than for replacements where I'm on rap anyway). Messing around with that big power tool while climbing is friggin' scary. There's something sort of Zen about working the stance or wondering about that hook while you tap tap tap away.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sun....shine some light on what you mean by "religious fantasy rules."
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Rolfr
Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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It seems pedantic to harp on mere procedure when so few people actually contribute to new route development with their own time, effort and money.
Building routes is 50% construction skills and 50% vision, a poorly constructed new route is still that, regardless if it was created with a hand or power drill.
I've been establishing new routes for over 40 years and the real questions should be "how best to mitigate environmental impact" Species at risk, sensitive habitat areas, cultural and recreational values are all equally at risk from hand or power drilling.
The vast majority of new route builders I have met, hand drilling or power drills are conscious and respectful of their impact, I doubt the availability of power drills will translate into a proliferation of grid bolting in the wilderness.
$700.00 for a hammerdrill and hundreds of dollars for hardware will probably be the biggest limiting factor.
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Rolfr
Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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Locker you Quack me up!
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Someones drillin fer buttcheeze with thur finger.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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The first step to preserve establishing new routes is to ban power drilling. The second will be to ban rap bolting.
Power Drilling leads to excessive bolting.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Power Drilling leads to excessive bolting
What are you? A self declared fourteen crack climber and there are too many bolts 4 you on the 5.8 you have chosen to warm up on?
What a crock of ...
Come out to WY and you can clip every other bolt on my routes -- maybe every third?
The second will be to ban rap bolting.
It seems you tradsters that bitch the most about sport climbing cannot climb shite anyway. So you will not try my route arguing it is overbolted?
Get the crap out of your pants -- maybe diapers would help?
I've been there, done that with trad routes. You do not bluff me.
You bastartds will not climb intermittent cracks because you can not get gear in just when you need it?
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