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jstan
climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
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On my land if I were to construct a skateboarding area and someone came onto the property and were
badly injured, even though they had not been invited, the possibility exists they could sue for damages
claiming the skateboard facility was "an attractive nuisance." I am not a lawyer so I will leave this legal
question to better informed persons.
That said when a person not certified for installation of personal safety equipment, installs a bolt on
public lands, I wonder what prevents a claim. And as to general certification of expansion bolts for use
as personal safety equipment, the variability in rock property suggests such general certification isn't
going to happen. By doing so the manufacturer would assume an unknown risk even when the placement is by a certified installer.
Personal safety is a very big deal.
As the number of climbers increases, the potential liabilities increase. These questions will almost
certainly, ever more seriously require an answer.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:06pm PT
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Clint is on what Ed started as to what the ASCA recommends and provides to those who replace with that system. A friend in Joshua Tree recently (in the last two months) came up with a tool that easily removes wedge anchors. He's removed old ones up to 1/2"x4" and can remove old rusty sleeves in seconds. The tool is being used now to replace anchors and lead bolts in JT. So, because rawl 5pc. 3/8 ss in shorter lengths can be hard to get, wedge 3/8" ss is a good long term replacement which is now easily replaced down the road.....way down as Clint points out. As to the glue ins, the tool works well on them as well. It is capable of at least 3000 lbs straight out. He's working on one capable of much more pulling power. As is the usual case, using good materials with glue ins ensures long life. I think I posted a picture of U shaped bolts made of 1/2" 316 ss that were 3" in diameter at the bend with 6" legs that were threaded for 4" on the legs. They were custom made and supplied to the Access Fund. They were glued in in the 90's at Mickey's Beach and are in great shape to this day.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:12pm PT
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Lots of variables, so the quick answer is "It depends."
Glue-ins are the standard in Europe. As far as I'm aware, strength tests have shown no degradation over decades. However, and it's a big caveat, if people lower through them they get worn down and will need to be replaced. Very common issue at anchors. But it is also common at cruxes since if you can't get past the crux, it's simple to hang on the bolt off a draw, thread the lead line straight through the bolt, then lower off. That's actually one of the advantages of the Bolt Products Twisted Leg bolts and the Climbtech Wave bolts - they are bomber 1/2" glue-ins, but they look so skinny that people would be sketched out lowering straight off the bolt and thus more likely to leave a biner instead (but of course if they lower off then the bolt wears much more rapidly).
One of the prime reasons glue-ins are the standard in Europe is simple - most of the climbing is limestone, which can simply erode away from mechanical bolts (within the hole) over time, leading to loosening of the bolt. That's not an issue for most of the U.S., but mechanical loosening of the bolt (from wearing away rock) is common in soft sandstone (and also in really grainy Joshua Tree rock, which unfortunately is often found at the anchor!).
The idea with using stainless 5-piece (not plated steel, Ed made a mistake on that) is that the bolts should last a long, long time, and then once they need replacement you should be able to unscrew the core then remove the sleeve one way or another. However if stainless corrodes (in 200 years or whatever) in such a way that the bolt core welds to the sleeve, then who knows just how removable they'll be. Stainless 5-pieces do tend to loosen up though (including 1/2"), the installation torque is lower and the metal is less "grabby" than plated steel. Tightening and lock-tite if needed.
For really good granite, there's no reason to think that the same bolt hole won't be reusable nearly indefinitely. We won't be so lucky with all rock types of course, and freeze-thaw cycles could potentially damage the rock significantly over very long time periods.
Fixe Triplex bolts and Climbtech Legacy bolts are both stainless, and both are designed to be removable, but it is definitely possible to screw them up so they are not removable, so while they are great options, I don't think they are a "level beyond" a stainless 5-piece bolt.
For really soft sandstone, I think all of us just have to admit that climbing will simply wear away the rock over time, as anyone who's seen deep rope grooves in soft sandstone, or climbed Incredible Hand Crack a couple decades apart will attest to (particularly since that's not the softest sandstone around). Zion & other soft rock aid climbers know that rock damage is quite rapid. In fact some summit anchors in super soft rock show the rock eroding away from the bolt due to wind and rain in the matter of a few decades, leaving the bolt sticking way out!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:17pm PT
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so 3" drilled angles in navajo are legit, right?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:20pm PT
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Actually there have been 3 failures of 316ss (marine grade) bolts at Mickey's and other crags along the northern CA coast, and we've been using titanium glue-ins there for 15+ years.
I'm psyched to see that bolt puller from Joshua Tree, but before I get too psyched, the rock at Joshua Tree may be sufficiently large-grained that the same puller would not work in harder rock. Kevin Powell has been removing 5/16" buttonheads in JT with tuning forks, and that doesn't work in hard rock!
Greg German and others have developed stud bolt removal techniques (that require power tools) with great success:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLl59N-HIds
At this point a similar method for Wilderness areas has yet to be figured out.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
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"At this point a similar method for Wilderness areas has yet to be figured out."
A similar method has been used, I'm almost certain it was a 3/8" carbon steel wedge that was pulled and patched.
Thx Greg. Always appreciate your concise insights on bolts, based on years of experience, to wade through the uninformed opinions!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 06:55pm PT
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Always more to learn!! SO, Munge, let's hear details on the Wilderness-legal extraction of 3/8" stud bolts - how did they do it, what type of rock, etc? They re-used the hole?
There are so many weird bolts that would be great to figure out how to extract...but 3/8" stud bolts and 3/8" 5-pieces are 90%+ of the "modern" bolts.
Hopefully we can get around to going after Valley sport routes before all their 3/8" 5-pieces rust into blobs that we can't extract...
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Aug 22, 2016 - 07:55pm PT
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:01pm PT
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:57pm PT
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Here's a couple of photos of one of the bolt removal tools that Greg German (AKA Gregger Man) made for removing wedge bolts. Basically you have a threaded rod inside a steel sleeve. You remove the hanger and nut from the bolt so just the threaded stud is left. In most cases you thread a special nut with an SDS chuck on one end of the stud and 3/8" coarse thread on the other. Using a power drill you spin the bolt with some water or jeweler's polish to destroy the cone.
Next you thread the end of the pulling tool onto the stud and extract. If the bolt is really bad you can sometimes skip the spinning part and just thread and extract.
ps - I made those orange etriers I am clipped into way back in 1974!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:00pm PT
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We have a relatively short duration experience using SS bolts. I remember a telephone discussion I had with Ed Leeper who was advocating that we just replace everything with SS and the bolts will last forever.
The fact of the matter is that maintaining the bolts is something that we have to plan for... and the option of waiting until we see troubles isn't viable. No one wants someone hurt because a bolt they placed failed at the wrong moment.
In the future, we'll schedule replacement of bolts. How we determine the time of the replacement is something I don't have a clue about at this time, but this opens up the possibility of using materials other than SS. Just something to think about, really.
Finally, the climbing community itself will have to develop a set of specifications on bolt placement and replacement. The fabricators won't touch it with a 10 foot pole (for the reasons jstan mentions) and for the most part, the NPS, FS, BLM all warn that they aren't responsible for the bolts, you use them at your own risk. They don't maintain them, they don't know anything about them...
It is certainly true that different bolts work in different rocks, I'm most familiar with drilling in Yosemite granite (which varies considerable in different locations in the park, horizontally and vertically). But we have little formal discussion about this... perhaps because of the liability issues.
And as far as I know, there has been no formal testing (Dingus McGee likes to use his truck to pull test various anchors, and Dingus is pretty savvy about these mechanical things but I don't think he's put together a systematic study, and it would be specific for the rock he develops in anyway, which would still be great).
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
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Ed wrote,
Finally, the climbing community itself will have to develop a set of specifications on bolt placement and replacement.
Ed,
read the conference proceedings from the Access Fund's Future of Fixed Anchors II conference I posted upthread. This is exactly what Brady Robinson and the AF is trying to do and the conference attendees are trying to help with.
One interesting note from the conference is that in Europe they use 316SS where in the US the SS of choice is 304. There is basically no difference in climbing applications. Brady has been working with the UIAA to modify their recommendation for only 316SS to include 304SS as well.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:10pm PT
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perhaps the UIAA can be the organization to do this
but
the regional variability would seem to be so overwhelming that only the most general specifications could be provided...
thanks for the reminder to look at the link, Bruce, there is some interesting stuff there...
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2016 - 10:10pm PT
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Thanks everyone! This gives me some solid information to plow through. I'm regularly asked about bolt replacement since I have minimal experience with it, and am the President of the Allied Climbers of San Diego. Hopefully this information will help guide me and those who ask me questions in the future. I appreciate all of your help!
I also wanted to start a dialogue on this public forum since the more people discuss this topic and information spreads the better off we are in the future. I'm glad that so many resources were put forth. I was invited to the Access Fund convention on rebolting, but sadly couldn't attend. I didn't realize that there was a summary website of the event! Thanks for the link.
Please continue the dialogue, I'll be checking back in for sure.
Josh Higgins
P.S. I'm still curious about the replacement of glue-ins if anyone has experience. It seems suboptimal...
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 10:16pm PT
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As an edit to above. Just got off the phone with my buddy in Josh. I mixed up the 1/2" x 4" with an earlier conversation. They weren't wedges and he pried those out. Also, he is not going to build another more powerful tool. Too expensive! But he is convinced that the existing tool will work to pull wedge anchors in granite of any density. Also Greg, the bolts that failed at Mickey's were ss 316 wedges. No way the U bolts have come close to failing. some slight surface oxidation and that's it. I installed many of them and was back last summer and all I saw were in great shape. They are the most bomb proof bolt I have ever seen. If they were made out of titanium they would last literally if the bomb went off. Tom Addison brought them out and gave me a gas fired drill. I was drilling away one day when some self appointed mayor of the nude beach came up to complain. Said it was noise pollution and I was fouling breathable air. I asked him where he relieved himself (one of the bummers of the nude beach is no porta potties and thus lots of fecal matter behind the rocks) and he walked away and I continued on. Ten minutes later and he's back complaining and threatening. I gave a couple of revs and started after him. Never saw him again. From what I understand, the State threatened to shut climbing down unless anchors were replaced. I think we used a Hilti 2 part epoxy with the swizel stick mixer.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:47am PT
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From what I understand, the State threatened to shut climbing down unless anchors were replaced.
This is another one of the reasons that the Brady Robinson and the Access Fund is trying to come up with some standards for bolts and also best practices for placing and removing bolts. They have a set of videos on their web site demonstrating many of these best practices. Also, as previously stated they have made some rebolting tools available to climbers at close to their cost.
Also, the ASCA has a number of documents on their web site with their recommendations for bolts and best practices. Good stuff there as well.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:06am PT
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Josh H. posted:
Has anyone in the climbing community removed an epoxy bolt and reused the hole? Do you utilize a blow torch? Does the melted epoxy run down the wall at the time of extraction and harden coating it? Though not for a bolt in rock, I have used heat to separate parts bonded with epoxy. There's no need to reduce the epoxy to a liquid state (and I'm not sure this would even be possible) - you simply apply heat until the epoxy has a sticky consistency sort of like taffy or chewed bubble gum. At that point, its bonding strength is much reduced, and with enough force the parts can be separated.
The basic scheme is thus: Apply heat until the force you can bring to bear is enough to separate the bond.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:10am PT
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Thanks everyone for replacing bolts.
We'd all be dead without you .......
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Kauait
Big Wall climber
salt lake city
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:13am PT
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Whats the scoop on glue in's in zion sandstone ? Seems like alot of replacement efforts are going with the glue ins. Is it just me, or does someone else have a (gut) feeling that there not for all sinerios? To grainy of stone,depth of saturation when wet, expansion and contraction etc. I feel there is to many variables to keep them safe for a longer period of time than a Typical 5 piece. Any link,experience or oppinions appreciated.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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3/8" SS wedge bolt: 
Let us know!