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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 22, 2016 - 09:13am PT
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Replacing bolts is a ton of work, is expensive, and in a few hundred years our rocks will look pretty terrible with all of the old holes and patch jobs. Assuming that you have to replace every 30-40 years, which is about 3 times a century, in two hundred years we'll have replaced bolts on popular climbs 6 times!
What does the community see as a solution to this dilemma? Are there bolts that you can replace into the same hole without redrilling it? Are removable bolts going to be the solution where climbing becomes BYOB? Sandstone is particularly tricky when it is lower quality. I always thought it was rather visionary that Ron Olevsky would create nut placements on sandstone lines that he knew would degrade with traffic! (At least I heard this years ago). Could this somehow be done on face climbs?
In Krabi, Thailand, a lot of the anchors are climbing rope threaded through holes that are sometimes drilled. The climbing rope comes down like a cordelette to a single large steel ring. I thought this was an ingenious solution to the problem, especially since you can replace the rope an infinite amount of times without degrading the rock!
I think some bolts should just fade into history. For example, the lead bolt on the Bat Crack of The Vampire. There is a vertical crack that takes perfect finger size cams about 8" away. I heard rumor this bolt was recently replaced in the last year or two. To say the least, I'm disappointed if this is true. The person replacing that bolt should have used critical thinking and identified that bolt as an old relic before modern gear and let it rust into obscurity. This would limit the long-term impact to the rock, since not as many bolts would need to be replaced!
What are you thoughts? Sorry if this has been posted on before.
Josh Higgins
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:23am PT
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I think Greg Barnes' proposal has been the best one.
Replacing bolts with the 5-piece 3/8" by (whatever, 5"?) hardware, regular steel, is probably the best bet... the old rusted bolt can be removed and the hole reused, accepting a new bolt.
This would allow maintenance of the protection on bolted routes.
I also think that fixed pins should be replaced by these same bolts as the pins are notoriously difficult to check and repeated replacement of the pins will cause scarring.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:23am PT
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Things change over time with new technologies, materials, etc. Probably the best guideline to follow when putting in fixed anchors is to use the currently best solution for a given rock type and environment at the time the anchors are placed.
For example, in granite, stainless steel in 1/2" for multiple fall, sport routes seems to be the accepted norm with 3/8" in areas where there aren't a lot of falls or have to be hand drilled. Of course, this applies to areas that aren't close to a salt water environment or similar high corrosive environment. In those places, titanium seems to be the accepted norm.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2016 - 09:36am PT
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Ed, so what you're saying is don't use stainless since the degradation of the metal actually allows for a replacement of the exact same bolt in the exact same hole without redrilling? I'd love to hear Greg weigh in on this one. This is exactly what I was looking for: a solution without drilling.
Bruce, I believe that you're talking about the best practice of what is currently done today. My point/argument is that what we are currently doing today will damage the rock for climbers in a few hundred years. Your recommendation would limit that damage, but not stop it entirely. Perhaps it is impossible to stop the continual degradation of the rock due to our sport?
Titanium glueins seem like a long-lasting solution, but I have no idea both how long those bolts/glue last, or how one could replace such a thing when it is time? Do you just have to chop it off? Or leave it there? Thinking hundreds of years in the future, titanium glueins don't seem ideal if removal isn't possible
Josh
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:48am PT
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Josh,
I think the best thing we can do is limit the damage. Using the correct type of bolt and the correct material(stainless steel or titanium) is the best solution for the technology that is currently available.
BTW, Greg Barnes is a stainless and titanium guy as well. All the bolts he purchases for the American Safe Climbing Association(ASCA) are either stainless or titanium.
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Outside
Trad climber
Truckee
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:52am PT
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Stop the idiots from putting in chicken bolts and convenience anchors....use natural pro more and walk off.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:56am PT
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Josh, Ed's point is about the use of 5 piece over wedge since they are easier to replace in the long run.
(stainless being the defacto metal regardless).
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Chossboss
Trad climber
The GNAR
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Aug 22, 2016 - 10:06am PT
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There are some highly replaceable bolts out there like the legacy bolt. I have placed and removed 10 or so and found it fairly easy with no damage to the hole.
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wer
Trad climber
winona
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Aug 22, 2016 - 12:11pm PT
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What about glue ins? I feel that although they are a bit more work they are the long term solution.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 01:12pm PT
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Maybe the long-term solution is to put in more short-lived bolts, as Ed and others have suggested. My lifelong best friend's father was an architect specializing in public buildings. If you went to school at Mammoth High, you were at one of his projects.
He thought that schools should be designed to last no longer than 50 years, becuase he felt that by then, virtually everything in the school would be obsolete, and it would be harder to update with buildings designed to last forever. When it comes to bolt placement and replacement, I think that philosophy remains valid. As long as we use bolts that enable us to replace them in existing holes, we should be able to avoid the long-term rock degradation.
John
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Aug 22, 2016 - 01:24pm PT
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A stainless steel or titanium bolt, fixed into a properly drilled hole with appropriate epoxy adhesive, could be expected to last 50 years or more (perhaps substantially more).
If it had to be replaced, the bolt could be heated to soften the epoxy and so removed without any need to modify the hole. So in theory such replacement could be done an unlimited number of times.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Aug 22, 2016 - 01:26pm PT
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What about glue ins? I feel that although they are a bit more work they are the long term solution.
Anybody done the studies of what happens to the glue with temp swings of 200+ degrees and UV and weak acids?
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Aug 22, 2016 - 02:13pm PT
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... what happens to the glue with temp swings of 200+ degrees and UV and weak acids? Various epoxies have various temperature ranges, but a fairly normal one is strong up to at least 250 F and has no problems with -40.
UV degrades many or most epoxies - but very little UV should make it inside a mostly horizontal hole that's filled with a bolt.
Acid resistance is generally quite good.
It's worth noting that in a proper bolt installation, the adhesive's job is to hold the bolt in place - it doesn't carry much of the force of a fall.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
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It's worth noting that in a proper bolt installation...
it is worth noting that NONE of the bolts we use for climbing have "proper" instructions for installation in natural rock matrices. That almost all of the "proper" instructions start out defining the concrete specifications for their application.
As far as I know, the manufacturers of the bolts would not recommend that they be used as we use them.
The lifetime of the bolts is also completely unknown, as the varying environmental factors (installation, weather, mineralization, moisture, etc...) cannot be specified. How long SS bolts will last for climbing applications will be entirely determined by our experience.
Given that the experience with bolts and bolt hangers in the past was completely unanticipated (we placed bolts way back then we though were going to be eternal ) I have no doubt that any number of surprises will crop up in the future.
That's why using bolts that could be maintained made so much sense to me...
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Aug 22, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
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Munge wrote:
Josh, Ed's point is about the use of 5 piece over wedge since they are easier to replace in the long run.
A number of climbers have been working on tools to remove wedge bolts. Having used a few of them, they work! Some of the tools do require a power drill which might limit their application, but others do not.
BTW, plated steel 5-piece bolts aren't necessarily easier to replace than wedge bolts. If the sleeve is rusted in the hole it's very hard to get out. One method that seems to be working is to use a tap to put threads on the inside of the sleeve then thread in a bolt which can be use in conjunction with a puller to remove the sleeve. It's not 100% reliable.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 03:47pm PT
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in a few hundred years our rocks will look pretty terrible with all of the old holes and patch jobs.
...
Are there bolts that you can replace into the same hole without redrilling it? In Yosemite granite, we pull the 1/4" bolts and replace in the same hole.
We do enlarge the existing hole to 3/8".
So usually no patching needed.
And if patching is needed (extra 1/4" bolts pulled), it's not hard to do it well and the patching is then very hard to spot.
Then place a stainless 3/8" Powers Powerbolt, aka. 5 piece bolt.
(ASCA standard is stainless; Ed was mistaken when he said "regular steel").
If this bolt goes bad, in say 100 years, then it can be extracted (as Bruce has described) and the same hole reused.
It would probably not be necessary to redrill the 3/8" hole.
On softer rock sometimes the original hole is too fractured to reuse, and then a new hole is drilled and the old one patched.
The patching may be easier to see on some rock types.
On softer rock, there is often a "crater" around the hole,
since the edges of the hole crumbled when the bolt was placed.
Then this crater will be visible.
On granite the edges of the hole don't crumble so easily.
As for the longevity of stainless bolts, I'm not sure,
but my guess is 200 years if they are not wet for months at a time.
Many of the 1/4" carbon steel bolts we've been replacing in Yosemite were 50 years old.
They looked rusty, but usually were still strong.
With 3/8" there is a lot more steel that has to go bad, and it's a lot more resistant to rust.
So I'm thinking 100 years minimum.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Aug 22, 2016 - 03:48pm PT
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Ed's comments are the most salient and correctly set out the problems of (very) long term fixed anchor use and replacement. Easily removable bolts that facilitate replacement in the same hole is currently the only long term strategy.
One thing I will observe is that glue-in bolts may be appropriate only in certain types of rock, and regardless, are going to still require replacement at some point. Temperature and methods of drilling and placing the glue and bolt also can significantly affect the integrity of glue-ins (and the expected useful life).
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
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Has anyone in the climbing community removed an epoxy bolt and reused the hole? Do you utilize a blow torch? Does the melted epoxy run down the wall at the time of extraction and harden coating it? It seems like getting 250F epoxy out of the hole for reuse would be quite a hazard! But... interesting and possibly much easier than replacing other style of bolts!
Josh
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jstan
climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
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On my land if I were to construct a skateboarding area and someone came onto the property and were
badly injured, even though they had not been invited, the possibility exists they could sue for damages
claiming the skateboard facility was "an attractive nuisance." I am not a lawyer so I will leave this legal
question to better informed persons.
That said when a person not certified for installation of personal safety equipment, installs a bolt on
public lands, I wonder what prevents a claim. And as to general certification of expansion bolts for use
as personal safety equipment, the variability in rock property suggests such general certification isn't
going to happen. By doing so the manufacturer would assume an unknown risk even when the placement is by a certified installer.
Personal safety is a very big deal.
As the number of climbers increases, the potential liabilities increase. These questions will almost
certainly, ever more seriously require an answer.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:06pm PT
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Clint is on what Ed started as to what the ASCA recommends and provides to those who replace with that system. A friend in Joshua Tree recently (in the last two months) came up with a tool that easily removes wedge anchors. He's removed old ones up to 1/2"x4" and can remove old rusty sleeves in seconds. The tool is being used now to replace anchors and lead bolts in JT. So, because rawl 5pc. 3/8 ss in shorter lengths can be hard to get, wedge 3/8" ss is a good long term replacement which is now easily replaced down the road.....way down as Clint points out. As to the glue ins, the tool works well on them as well. It is capable of at least 3000 lbs straight out. He's working on one capable of much more pulling power. As is the usual case, using good materials with glue ins ensures long life. I think I posted a picture of U shaped bolts made of 1/2" 316 ss that were 3" in diameter at the bend with 6" legs that were threaded for 4" on the legs. They were custom made and supplied to the Access Fund. They were glued in in the 90's at Mickey's Beach and are in great shape to this day.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:12pm PT
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Lots of variables, so the quick answer is "It depends."
Glue-ins are the standard in Europe. As far as I'm aware, strength tests have shown no degradation over decades. However, and it's a big caveat, if people lower through them they get worn down and will need to be replaced. Very common issue at anchors. But it is also common at cruxes since if you can't get past the crux, it's simple to hang on the bolt off a draw, thread the lead line straight through the bolt, then lower off. That's actually one of the advantages of the Bolt Products Twisted Leg bolts and the Climbtech Wave bolts - they are bomber 1/2" glue-ins, but they look so skinny that people would be sketched out lowering straight off the bolt and thus more likely to leave a biner instead (but of course if they lower off then the bolt wears much more rapidly).
One of the prime reasons glue-ins are the standard in Europe is simple - most of the climbing is limestone, which can simply erode away from mechanical bolts (within the hole) over time, leading to loosening of the bolt. That's not an issue for most of the U.S., but mechanical loosening of the bolt (from wearing away rock) is common in soft sandstone (and also in really grainy Joshua Tree rock, which unfortunately is often found at the anchor!).
The idea with using stainless 5-piece (not plated steel, Ed made a mistake on that) is that the bolts should last a long, long time, and then once they need replacement you should be able to unscrew the core then remove the sleeve one way or another. However if stainless corrodes (in 200 years or whatever) in such a way that the bolt core welds to the sleeve, then who knows just how removable they'll be. Stainless 5-pieces do tend to loosen up though (including 1/2"), the installation torque is lower and the metal is less "grabby" than plated steel. Tightening and lock-tite if needed.
For really good granite, there's no reason to think that the same bolt hole won't be reusable nearly indefinitely. We won't be so lucky with all rock types of course, and freeze-thaw cycles could potentially damage the rock significantly over very long time periods.
Fixe Triplex bolts and Climbtech Legacy bolts are both stainless, and both are designed to be removable, but it is definitely possible to screw them up so they are not removable, so while they are great options, I don't think they are a "level beyond" a stainless 5-piece bolt.
For really soft sandstone, I think all of us just have to admit that climbing will simply wear away the rock over time, as anyone who's seen deep rope grooves in soft sandstone, or climbed Incredible Hand Crack a couple decades apart will attest to (particularly since that's not the softest sandstone around). Zion & other soft rock aid climbers know that rock damage is quite rapid. In fact some summit anchors in super soft rock show the rock eroding away from the bolt due to wind and rain in the matter of a few decades, leaving the bolt sticking way out!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:17pm PT
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so 3" drilled angles in navajo are legit, right?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:20pm PT
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Actually there have been 3 failures of 316ss (marine grade) bolts at Mickey's and other crags along the northern CA coast, and we've been using titanium glue-ins there for 15+ years.
I'm psyched to see that bolt puller from Joshua Tree, but before I get too psyched, the rock at Joshua Tree may be sufficiently large-grained that the same puller would not work in harder rock. Kevin Powell has been removing 5/16" buttonheads in JT with tuning forks, and that doesn't work in hard rock!
Greg German and others have developed stud bolt removal techniques (that require power tools) with great success:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLl59N-HIds
At this point a similar method for Wilderness areas has yet to be figured out.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
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"At this point a similar method for Wilderness areas has yet to be figured out."
A similar method has been used, I'm almost certain it was a 3/8" carbon steel wedge that was pulled and patched.
Thx Greg. Always appreciate your concise insights on bolts, based on years of experience, to wade through the uninformed opinions!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 06:55pm PT
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Always more to learn!! SO, Munge, let's hear details on the Wilderness-legal extraction of 3/8" stud bolts - how did they do it, what type of rock, etc? They re-used the hole?
There are so many weird bolts that would be great to figure out how to extract...but 3/8" stud bolts and 3/8" 5-pieces are 90%+ of the "modern" bolts.
Hopefully we can get around to going after Valley sport routes before all their 3/8" 5-pieces rust into blobs that we can't extract...
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Aug 22, 2016 - 07:55pm PT
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:01pm PT
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:57pm PT
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Here's a couple of photos of one of the bolt removal tools that Greg German (AKA Gregger Man) made for removing wedge bolts. Basically you have a threaded rod inside a steel sleeve. You remove the hanger and nut from the bolt so just the threaded stud is left. In most cases you thread a special nut with an SDS chuck on one end of the stud and 3/8" coarse thread on the other. Using a power drill you spin the bolt with some water or jeweler's polish to destroy the cone.
Next you thread the end of the pulling tool onto the stud and extract. If the bolt is really bad you can sometimes skip the spinning part and just thread and extract.
ps - I made those orange etriers I am clipped into way back in 1974!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:00pm PT
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We have a relatively short duration experience using SS bolts. I remember a telephone discussion I had with Ed Leeper who was advocating that we just replace everything with SS and the bolts will last forever.
The fact of the matter is that maintaining the bolts is something that we have to plan for... and the option of waiting until we see troubles isn't viable. No one wants someone hurt because a bolt they placed failed at the wrong moment.
In the future, we'll schedule replacement of bolts. How we determine the time of the replacement is something I don't have a clue about at this time, but this opens up the possibility of using materials other than SS. Just something to think about, really.
Finally, the climbing community itself will have to develop a set of specifications on bolt placement and replacement. The fabricators won't touch it with a 10 foot pole (for the reasons jstan mentions) and for the most part, the NPS, FS, BLM all warn that they aren't responsible for the bolts, you use them at your own risk. They don't maintain them, they don't know anything about them...
It is certainly true that different bolts work in different rocks, I'm most familiar with drilling in Yosemite granite (which varies considerable in different locations in the park, horizontally and vertically). But we have little formal discussion about this... perhaps because of the liability issues.
And as far as I know, there has been no formal testing (Dingus McGee likes to use his truck to pull test various anchors, and Dingus is pretty savvy about these mechanical things but I don't think he's put together a systematic study, and it would be specific for the rock he develops in anyway, which would still be great).
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
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Ed wrote,
Finally, the climbing community itself will have to develop a set of specifications on bolt placement and replacement.
Ed,
read the conference proceedings from the Access Fund's Future of Fixed Anchors II conference I posted upthread. This is exactly what Brady Robinson and the AF is trying to do and the conference attendees are trying to help with.
One interesting note from the conference is that in Europe they use 316SS where in the US the SS of choice is 304. There is basically no difference in climbing applications. Brady has been working with the UIAA to modify their recommendation for only 316SS to include 304SS as well.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:10pm PT
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perhaps the UIAA can be the organization to do this
but
the regional variability would seem to be so overwhelming that only the most general specifications could be provided...
thanks for the reminder to look at the link, Bruce, there is some interesting stuff there...
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2016 - 10:10pm PT
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Thanks everyone! This gives me some solid information to plow through. I'm regularly asked about bolt replacement since I have minimal experience with it, and am the President of the Allied Climbers of San Diego. Hopefully this information will help guide me and those who ask me questions in the future. I appreciate all of your help!
I also wanted to start a dialogue on this public forum since the more people discuss this topic and information spreads the better off we are in the future. I'm glad that so many resources were put forth. I was invited to the Access Fund convention on rebolting, but sadly couldn't attend. I didn't realize that there was a summary website of the event! Thanks for the link.
Please continue the dialogue, I'll be checking back in for sure.
Josh Higgins
P.S. I'm still curious about the replacement of glue-ins if anyone has experience. It seems suboptimal...
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 10:16pm PT
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As an edit to above. Just got off the phone with my buddy in Josh. I mixed up the 1/2" x 4" with an earlier conversation. They weren't wedges and he pried those out. Also, he is not going to build another more powerful tool. Too expensive! But he is convinced that the existing tool will work to pull wedge anchors in granite of any density. Also Greg, the bolts that failed at Mickey's were ss 316 wedges. No way the U bolts have come close to failing. some slight surface oxidation and that's it. I installed many of them and was back last summer and all I saw were in great shape. They are the most bomb proof bolt I have ever seen. If they were made out of titanium they would last literally if the bomb went off. Tom Addison brought them out and gave me a gas fired drill. I was drilling away one day when some self appointed mayor of the nude beach came up to complain. Said it was noise pollution and I was fouling breathable air. I asked him where he relieved himself (one of the bummers of the nude beach is no porta potties and thus lots of fecal matter behind the rocks) and he walked away and I continued on. Ten minutes later and he's back complaining and threatening. I gave a couple of revs and started after him. Never saw him again. From what I understand, the State threatened to shut climbing down unless anchors were replaced. I think we used a Hilti 2 part epoxy with the swizel stick mixer.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:47am PT
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From what I understand, the State threatened to shut climbing down unless anchors were replaced.
This is another one of the reasons that the Brady Robinson and the Access Fund is trying to come up with some standards for bolts and also best practices for placing and removing bolts. They have a set of videos on their web site demonstrating many of these best practices. Also, as previously stated they have made some rebolting tools available to climbers at close to their cost.
Also, the ASCA has a number of documents on their web site with their recommendations for bolts and best practices. Good stuff there as well.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:06am PT
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Josh H. posted:
Has anyone in the climbing community removed an epoxy bolt and reused the hole? Do you utilize a blow torch? Does the melted epoxy run down the wall at the time of extraction and harden coating it? Though not for a bolt in rock, I have used heat to separate parts bonded with epoxy. There's no need to reduce the epoxy to a liquid state (and I'm not sure this would even be possible) - you simply apply heat until the epoxy has a sticky consistency sort of like taffy or chewed bubble gum. At that point, its bonding strength is much reduced, and with enough force the parts can be separated.
The basic scheme is thus: Apply heat until the force you can bring to bear is enough to separate the bond.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:10am PT
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Thanks everyone for replacing bolts.
We'd all be dead without you .......
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Kauait
Big Wall climber
salt lake city
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:13am PT
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Whats the scoop on glue in's in zion sandstone ? Seems like alot of replacement efforts are going with the glue ins. Is it just me, or does someone else have a (gut) feeling that there not for all sinerios? To grainy of stone,depth of saturation when wet, expansion and contraction etc. I feel there is to many variables to keep them safe for a longer period of time than a Typical 5 piece. Any link,experience or oppinions appreciated.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 23, 2016 - 09:12am PT
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If I replace a 1/4" bolt, reusing the same hole, I have to drill the hole out to 3/8" and put in a new 3/8" bolt. I can't use reuse the old 1/4" hole and put in a new 1/4" bolt, because the hole has been damaged.
Are there any 3/8" bolts that can later be removed, and hole reused safely with another 3/8" bolt? How is this possible?
Or will reusing these current 3/8" holes in the future require drilling them out to a larger diameter?
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 23, 2016 - 09:23am PT
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I got to thinking (which usually leads to mindless rambling)......about the whole question of the word "permanence" and how it pertains to the climbing world. Of course it's human nature to want to leave one's mark on the world and I think a lot about this. My thoughts about what I leave behind in my little climbing realm have certainly changed over the years. I used to be content to follow trails left by others in the "style" I preferred and I've helped to preserve those trails mainly for selfish reasons. I wanted to preserve them mostly for me because not many are practicing this "style" any more and I didn't want them to disappear.
But my thinking and actions have changed. I decided to live my own adventures and I don't know whether the rock is worse or not for it as I'm convinced these days that the earth will be just fine with or without the human race. But caring is a strong human component and as long as we're around, the caring isn't going to stop.
And so in rambling to the micro of bolts: I've been thinking lately about installing routes more like a Tibetan sand painting mandala that show the impermanence of everything. This is not to say that my creations are anywhere near as beautiful but that idea of impermanence is striking. But how to realistically go about this in the manner of how I conduct my adventures? If I could free solo the slab at my highest capabilities without protection I would (and I fight with the urge to leave the gear in a pile on a rock and leave it) but I can't. My mind isn't strong enough. I was brought into the climbing world using technology and thought nothing of it and I like having relationships with loved ones who wish that I stay alive as long as possible. So I try to live my adventures as close to the free solo as possible, trying to be as minimally intrusive as possible to get the most of my view of what adventure means. To travel up blank faces of rock leaving as minimal a trail as possible. I've flirted with the idea of simply removing my trail as much as possible but the Tibetans let the natural elements remove their creations.
So, ironically, this is why I try to use a means of protection that won't last as long in the elements and are easily removed (I often wonder how many routes are out there that have disappeared into the ages). This process keeps evolving. My ego still won't let me remove my trails (I try not to publicize my path but admit it does feel good when somebody asks or finds them and appreciates them) but I largely climb for me. I actually hope that one day soon I can let go and create my own sand paintings. One could say that I'm just being lazy and I'm creating danger for others (in a different sense of what adventure now means?) but I've done the hard work of preservation and I think people should be able to decide for themselves as to how to create their paths. But society's ideas of adventure change and society at large usually dictates the standard in the end. For my part, I hope we don't dictate ourselves into a world that limits us.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 23, 2016 - 01:45pm PT
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Are there any 3/8" bolts that can later be removed, and hole reused safely with another 3/8" bolt? Yes, the Powers Powerbolt (aka 5 piece) can be removed (from good granite), and another placed in the same hole without enlarging the hole diameter.
How is this possible? The cone on this bolt does not remove much rock from the hole (in good granite) when it is placed and removed.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Aug 23, 2016 - 04:53pm PT
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I noticed that one of the glue-ins at Mickey's on the warm-up route (Nancy?) as well as one of the same glue-ins on "Feed the Beast" at Pinnnacles are now spinners (the bolt itself spins around, the glue stays put). Both were placed not too long ago. That made me a bit worried about these bolts. Seemed like the one at Mickey's got repeatedly tensioned at a weird angle and came loose.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Aug 23, 2016 - 04:56pm PT
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Impaler, the spinner at Pinnacles is an expected result. There's some discussion about it elsewhere on the forum. It isn't loose in the sense that it will come out.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Aug 23, 2016 - 05:10pm PT
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The bolts on Feed the Beast at Pinnacles National Park were replaced with glue-ins in March 2001 by Greg Barnes, Dave Buchanan, and John Steinmetz.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 23, 2016 - 09:51pm PT
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Impaler,
The grooves in the Ushba Tortuga (titanium) bolt are not angled/spiral, so the bolt can spin but does not "unscrew" from the hole.
photo from rockclimbing.com
Chiloe's photo from another thread.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Aug 24, 2016 - 10:08am PT
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Bruce - thanks for the correction.
Munge and Clint - that's what I figured as well - the bolt can rotate around it's axis, but wouldn't really come out under load. What made me worried is that if we think that these bolts will last for a 100 years and some of them start spinning after 15, wouldn't they eventually wear through the epoxy by grinding it down? Maybe in another 5-10 years - who knows? Wouldn't that make some of these bolts dangerous after 20-25 years in certain situations?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 24, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
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I don't know how long the glue lasts on the glue-in bolts.
One good thing about the design of the Tortuga bolt
is that the glue at all the grooves is loaded simultaneously,
so the load would seem to be spread out pretty well.
My estimate of 100-200 years was for stainless steel mechanical bolts (in good granite, not wet for months at a time).
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 24, 2016 - 12:53pm PT
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Was just discussing the different bolt styles and what impact they have on holes. After removal old wedges the found that bolts without sleeves tend to start to wear away rock in the holes, especially after repeated loading. The removed a wedge on Forbidden Paradise and found the hole worn away considerably rendering the hole useless to re-use the same size hole. Since they are replacing with 1/2" it's moot but important to note. This goes to the bolts Impaler has brought to discussion. The have no sleeves and are more than likely not only braking glue seal but also wearing away hole from the outside in. The rock at Mickey's is nowhere near as strong as Yosemite granite. As Clint points out, the five pieces are easily removable and because the sleeve buffers the hole from the bolt shaft, the hole is in better shape can except a replacement. This was born out when the crew easily removed an older steel five piece and found the hole in great shape. To put it all together: It seems like the SS five pieces are currently the best option for ease of replacement and longevity in areas other than a marine environment. In the marine environment, The U bolt at Mickey's has worked well which brings up the topic of materials and form. If single shaft glue ins can work themselves loose under reapeted loading (especially in a sport climb setting like Mickey's) then alternative designs should be sought. Impaler, have you checked the U bolts at Mickey's? They can't spin and are massive due to the two 6" arms. I think, since the holes are drilled imprecisely (in other words, having two holes not perfectly parallel helps them stay in) that when hammered in, even if glue failed, they would be hard to pull straight out. And constant loading doesn't appear to be moving them at all. They're 1/2". If the were made of Titanium I'm convinced they'd last a lifetime or longer. Also, 316 stainless quality varies greatly from manufacturer to manufactuer. The quality of the U bolts is obviously high (just lucky) as compared to the other 316 bolts at the beach. At any rate, I've climbed a lot on the Coast of Cali and the U's are by far the most long lived I've seen so far.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Aug 24, 2016 - 01:51pm PT
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Yes, I've seen those U-bolts you are talking about. They are definitely bomb-proof. I also know that Jimi uses wave bolts, which are similar in design, except both ends go into the same hole, insted of 2 different holes. I thought they are titanium, but I'm not sure now... I think the design might be even better, since they can't spin and also need to be hammered into a hole that is usually a bit small for them. I drilled one of the holes for them on the Emperor boulder next to Mickey's with Jimi's guidance and he had me very aggressively rim out the hole to make it bigger than the drill bit.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Aug 24, 2016 - 02:11pm PT
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Now I'm not sure if I am mixing them up with these titanium bolts, which have the same design. "Titan climbing" also carry the U-bolt made from Ti.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 24, 2016 - 03:25pm PT
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Jim uses the Eterna titanium bolt, which the ASCA supplies:
http://www.titanclimbing.com/Titan%20Climbing%20products%20-%20Eterna%20Titanium%20glue%20in%20bolt.html
Titan Climbing gives the ASCA a discount (off their already very low margins) for bolts for replacement, which we've supplied for Thailand as well as the California coast. We recently bought titanium anchor set-ups which Jim is starting to use to replace the 316ss anchor set-ups. Luckily chloride stress corrosion cracking in California is nowhere near as bad as in Thailand!
Those Tortuga bolts which we placed at Mickey's and at Pinnacles should have had the rock grooved out so the bolt head nestled in a notch in the rock to prevent rotation (which, in the Pinnacles case, is not easily done when hand drilling...). This is what we should have done:
However we were assured that those Tortuga bolts are still full strength. Not very reassuring, I know, sorry about that!
(That photo above is not a Tortuga, which are no longer made, it is a 12mm Solid Leg bolt from Bolt Products which I placed last October when I could not remove a 3/8" bolt and had to drill tiny holes around the bolt to remove it with pliers, then drill the hole to 9/16" for a large glue-in).
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 24, 2016 - 03:30pm PT
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The bolt Clint just posted is the "Twisted Leg" design from Bolt Products, and Sam Lightner Jr. has recently placed hundreds of those at Wild Iris and Sinks. Like the Wave bolt, the bolt looks really skinny (some people call them "paper clips") but is super strong.
We have both 1/2" Twisted Leg bolts and the larger 5/8" Twisted Leg bolts which can be used to re-drill wallowed out holes in softer rock, in fact I'm boxing up 80 long 5/8" Twisted Leg bolts right now for replacement in Zion (those cool sport routes in Kolob Canyon).
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 24, 2016 - 04:11pm PT
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Has anyone pulled glue ins? Seems like it would be easy to set the base of a small hydrolic jack's base against the rock, set up some sort of cable/screw compatible with jack shaft threads with a hook on the other end and pump them out?. All sorts of different bolts to pull. Phew!
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Juicer
Trad climber
SLC
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Aug 24, 2016 - 04:25pm PT
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With all due respect, I don't buy the assurance that a single axis, loose and spinning, adhesive bolt is full strength. We pulled 3 out of 4 loose, un-embedded, Fixe glue-ins with a 3 lb. slide hammer. Difficulty of removal varied, and we couldn't pull the one with the most play, go figure. Any way you cut it, a loose adhesive bolt does not meet the general expectation.
Nice adaptive core drilling approach for that 12mm installation!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Aug 24, 2016 - 05:24pm PT
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Juicer, a 3 lb slide hammer generates how much force?
wstmrnclmr, I was curious about the same thing. Invariably someone will eventually use glue ins to retrobolt without moral authority (e.g. FA author approval).
In the past, haven't they been cut with a battery powered diamond edge grinding wheel? Probably not recommended, but perhaps a 3 lb slide hammer might rip out enough to be able to pull and then use natural stone/dust locally sourced to patch back over it.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 24, 2016 - 05:58pm PT
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The question in conversation with a friend was how to test beforehand for climbing specific, real time scenarios? Most anchors in the past were off the shelf and not climbing specific. Some have worked well, some not but almost if not every anchor has been field tested over time. Are the glue ins or other anchors being designed specifically for the climbing environment and scenarios being tested in a controlled environment? Most construction anchors have pull and shear loads etc. and some great work has been done by supertopians but it seems like no testing done to mimic actual climbing situations. The news that single shaft anchors with no buffer between the rock and the shaft can cause significant wear (my friend in Josh pulling wedges says that after the nuts are removed that he's noticed up to 30% enlargement of the hole by simply moving the stud from side to side. He noticed no play in 5 pc. bolts)was news to me and that we are seeing failure (spinning etc.) of glue ins possibly due to same loading over time. Can a factor 2 fall over and over again on a vertically placed single shaft glue in cause it to pull? And to go back to OP, is planning for future replacement planed in? So far trial and error has been the norm? Is that good enough?
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:36am PT
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The current standard requires the bolt provides resistance to rotation, there is a torque test. Notching the head in doesnīt count as many bolts are designed not to be notched and there can be other issues if this is done. Normally the rotation is prevented by cutting the end of the shaft at 45° for single stem bolts. Buhler style bolts need nothing.
Single-stem bolts have a unfortunate characteristic that very occasionally they come slightly loose, we call these "clickies". Iīve seen five in my time. They all proved to be incredibly difficult to remove, the worst one took 18kN straight out pull to remove. The others were irremovable. We donīt really know why this is but temperature plays a role, we checked one on a hot afternoon and it moved but the next morning in the cool when we went to replace it it was solid and couldnīt be moved with a wrecking bar.
The resin used seems to make no difference.
European certified bolts are tested to replicate climbing situations to a certain extent (there is a repeat loading test as well as the final failure testing) but obviously it would be ridiculously expensive to test for every possible scenario. In reality we have tens of thousands of bolts being tested in every possible scenario every weekend and the standards are designed on the basis of this experience and modified to suit any new experience. All equipment standards are produced on the basis of the theoretical needs and long term experience.
We have tested one of our bolts (the one pictured above from Clint Cummins) with repeat loads of 25kN pulling straight out. After 1,000 pulls we got bored and started to up the load, after 1400+ pulls the test block cracked in half at 45kN.
Resin life is unknown, we know of areas where polyester car body filler is still doing fine after 40 years and others where Hilti epoxy is letting go after 18yrs. Quick setting cement appears to have the best long-term reliability but itīs not real easy to use!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 26, 2016 - 07:42am PT
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ps - I made those orange etriers I am clipped into way back in 1974!
Bruce, I hope your harness is newer ;-)
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Aug 26, 2016 - 09:17am PT
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Single-stem bolts have a unfortunate characteristic that very occasionally they come slightly loose, we call these "clickies". Iīve seen five in my time.
I suspect this is a result of the resin distribution within the hole.
I've pull tested thousands of resin rebar bolts (spent a few years doing geotechnical work in underground facilities). Bolt failures below the rated strength of the bolt are always due to either; insufficient rock strength (poor choice of placement) or improper resin distribution (usually not enough, crews will try to use less resin as a shortcut to speed). A typical resin rebar bolt is 22mm put into a 28mm hole, leaving a 3mm annulus for the resin. These bolts are much larger than we use climbing but the installation principle is the same. Full resin encapsulation is key to proper strength.
The smaller annulus (by proportion to bolt diam) used in recreational setups is an issue to achieving full strength of the system.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Aug 27, 2016 - 04:53am PT
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Yes and no! All the bolts weīve removed were correctly installed and we assume the ones we couldnīt were also, we know the people involved. the hassl is the problem is so rare and occurs years or even decades after the installation that thereīs no real way to get a common factor. Weīve tried to replicate it in the workshop with repeated heat cycles with no result.
The resins used are for up to 2mm gap and all the holes were the correct size except for some which were smaller. Itīs a bit annoying though, you install a couple of thousand bolts and one decides to move after 5 years!
All we can think is the relative temperature when they were installed compared to expansion of the rock in the sun makes them come a bit loose and the elasticity and shrinkage of the resin plays a role.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 22, 2017 - 10:27am PT
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The link to the Access Fund conference held in Vegas and posted upthread does not work. Anybody have a current URL?
Thanks,
Arne
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| Messages 1 - 65 of total 65 in this topic |
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SuperTopo on the Web
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3/8" SS wedge bolt: 
Let us know!