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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 23, 2016 - 09:12am PT
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If I replace a 1/4" bolt, reusing the same hole, I have to drill the hole out to 3/8" and put in a new 3/8" bolt. I can't use reuse the old 1/4" hole and put in a new 1/4" bolt, because the hole has been damaged.
Are there any 3/8" bolts that can later be removed, and hole reused safely with another 3/8" bolt? How is this possible?
Or will reusing these current 3/8" holes in the future require drilling them out to a larger diameter?
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 23, 2016 - 09:23am PT
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I got to thinking (which usually leads to mindless rambling)......about the whole question of the word "permanence" and how it pertains to the climbing world. Of course it's human nature to want to leave one's mark on the world and I think a lot about this. My thoughts about what I leave behind in my little climbing realm have certainly changed over the years. I used to be content to follow trails left by others in the "style" I preferred and I've helped to preserve those trails mainly for selfish reasons. I wanted to preserve them mostly for me because not many are practicing this "style" any more and I didn't want them to disappear.
But my thinking and actions have changed. I decided to live my own adventures and I don't know whether the rock is worse or not for it as I'm convinced these days that the earth will be just fine with or without the human race. But caring is a strong human component and as long as we're around, the caring isn't going to stop.
And so in rambling to the micro of bolts: I've been thinking lately about installing routes more like a Tibetan sand painting mandala that show the impermanence of everything. This is not to say that my creations are anywhere near as beautiful but that idea of impermanence is striking. But how to realistically go about this in the manner of how I conduct my adventures? If I could free solo the slab at my highest capabilities without protection I would (and I fight with the urge to leave the gear in a pile on a rock and leave it) but I can't. My mind isn't strong enough. I was brought into the climbing world using technology and thought nothing of it and I like having relationships with loved ones who wish that I stay alive as long as possible. So I try to live my adventures as close to the free solo as possible, trying to be as minimally intrusive as possible to get the most of my view of what adventure means. To travel up blank faces of rock leaving as minimal a trail as possible. I've flirted with the idea of simply removing my trail as much as possible but the Tibetans let the natural elements remove their creations.
So, ironically, this is why I try to use a means of protection that won't last as long in the elements and are easily removed (I often wonder how many routes are out there that have disappeared into the ages). This process keeps evolving. My ego still won't let me remove my trails (I try not to publicize my path but admit it does feel good when somebody asks or finds them and appreciates them) but I largely climb for me. I actually hope that one day soon I can let go and create my own sand paintings. One could say that I'm just being lazy and I'm creating danger for others (in a different sense of what adventure now means?) but I've done the hard work of preservation and I think people should be able to decide for themselves as to how to create their paths. But society's ideas of adventure change and society at large usually dictates the standard in the end. For my part, I hope we don't dictate ourselves into a world that limits us.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 23, 2016 - 01:45pm PT
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Are there any 3/8" bolts that can later be removed, and hole reused safely with another 3/8" bolt? Yes, the Powers Powerbolt (aka 5 piece) can be removed (from good granite), and another placed in the same hole without enlarging the hole diameter.
How is this possible? The cone on this bolt does not remove much rock from the hole (in good granite) when it is placed and removed.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Aug 23, 2016 - 04:53pm PT
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I noticed that one of the glue-ins at Mickey's on the warm-up route (Nancy?) as well as one of the same glue-ins on "Feed the Beast" at Pinnnacles are now spinners (the bolt itself spins around, the glue stays put). Both were placed not too long ago. That made me a bit worried about these bolts. Seemed like the one at Mickey's got repeatedly tensioned at a weird angle and came loose.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Aug 23, 2016 - 04:56pm PT
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Impaler, the spinner at Pinnacles is an expected result. There's some discussion about it elsewhere on the forum. It isn't loose in the sense that it will come out.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Aug 23, 2016 - 05:10pm PT
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The bolts on Feed the Beast at Pinnacles National Park were replaced with glue-ins in March 2001 by Greg Barnes, Dave Buchanan, and John Steinmetz.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 23, 2016 - 09:51pm PT
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Impaler,
The grooves in the Ushba Tortuga (titanium) bolt are not angled/spiral, so the bolt can spin but does not "unscrew" from the hole.
photo from rockclimbing.com
Chiloe's photo from another thread.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Aug 24, 2016 - 10:08am PT
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Bruce - thanks for the correction.
Munge and Clint - that's what I figured as well - the bolt can rotate around it's axis, but wouldn't really come out under load. What made me worried is that if we think that these bolts will last for a 100 years and some of them start spinning after 15, wouldn't they eventually wear through the epoxy by grinding it down? Maybe in another 5-10 years - who knows? Wouldn't that make some of these bolts dangerous after 20-25 years in certain situations?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 24, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
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I don't know how long the glue lasts on the glue-in bolts.
One good thing about the design of the Tortuga bolt
is that the glue at all the grooves is loaded simultaneously,
so the load would seem to be spread out pretty well.
My estimate of 100-200 years was for stainless steel mechanical bolts (in good granite, not wet for months at a time).
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 24, 2016 - 12:53pm PT
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Was just discussing the different bolt styles and what impact they have on holes. After removal old wedges the found that bolts without sleeves tend to start to wear away rock in the holes, especially after repeated loading. The removed a wedge on Forbidden Paradise and found the hole worn away considerably rendering the hole useless to re-use the same size hole. Since they are replacing with 1/2" it's moot but important to note. This goes to the bolts Impaler has brought to discussion. The have no sleeves and are more than likely not only braking glue seal but also wearing away hole from the outside in. The rock at Mickey's is nowhere near as strong as Yosemite granite. As Clint points out, the five pieces are easily removable and because the sleeve buffers the hole from the bolt shaft, the hole is in better shape can except a replacement. This was born out when the crew easily removed an older steel five piece and found the hole in great shape. To put it all together: It seems like the SS five pieces are currently the best option for ease of replacement and longevity in areas other than a marine environment. In the marine environment, The U bolt at Mickey's has worked well which brings up the topic of materials and form. If single shaft glue ins can work themselves loose under reapeted loading (especially in a sport climb setting like Mickey's) then alternative designs should be sought. Impaler, have you checked the U bolts at Mickey's? They can't spin and are massive due to the two 6" arms. I think, since the holes are drilled imprecisely (in other words, having two holes not perfectly parallel helps them stay in) that when hammered in, even if glue failed, they would be hard to pull straight out. And constant loading doesn't appear to be moving them at all. They're 1/2". If the were made of Titanium I'm convinced they'd last a lifetime or longer. Also, 316 stainless quality varies greatly from manufacturer to manufactuer. The quality of the U bolts is obviously high (just lucky) as compared to the other 316 bolts at the beach. At any rate, I've climbed a lot on the Coast of Cali and the U's are by far the most long lived I've seen so far.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Aug 24, 2016 - 01:51pm PT
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Yes, I've seen those U-bolts you are talking about. They are definitely bomb-proof. I also know that Jimi uses wave bolts, which are similar in design, except both ends go into the same hole, insted of 2 different holes. I thought they are titanium, but I'm not sure now... I think the design might be even better, since they can't spin and also need to be hammered into a hole that is usually a bit small for them. I drilled one of the holes for them on the Emperor boulder next to Mickey's with Jimi's guidance and he had me very aggressively rim out the hole to make it bigger than the drill bit.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Aug 24, 2016 - 02:11pm PT
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Now I'm not sure if I am mixing them up with these titanium bolts, which have the same design. "Titan climbing" also carry the U-bolt made from Ti.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 24, 2016 - 03:25pm PT
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Jim uses the Eterna titanium bolt, which the ASCA supplies:
http://www.titanclimbing.com/Titan%20Climbing%20products%20-%20Eterna%20Titanium%20glue%20in%20bolt.html
Titan Climbing gives the ASCA a discount (off their already very low margins) for bolts for replacement, which we've supplied for Thailand as well as the California coast. We recently bought titanium anchor set-ups which Jim is starting to use to replace the 316ss anchor set-ups. Luckily chloride stress corrosion cracking in California is nowhere near as bad as in Thailand!
Those Tortuga bolts which we placed at Mickey's and at Pinnacles should have had the rock grooved out so the bolt head nestled in a notch in the rock to prevent rotation (which, in the Pinnacles case, is not easily done when hand drilling...). This is what we should have done:
However we were assured that those Tortuga bolts are still full strength. Not very reassuring, I know, sorry about that!
(That photo above is not a Tortuga, which are no longer made, it is a 12mm Solid Leg bolt from Bolt Products which I placed last October when I could not remove a 3/8" bolt and had to drill tiny holes around the bolt to remove it with pliers, then drill the hole to 9/16" for a large glue-in).
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 24, 2016 - 03:30pm PT
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The bolt Clint just posted is the "Twisted Leg" design from Bolt Products, and Sam Lightner Jr. has recently placed hundreds of those at Wild Iris and Sinks. Like the Wave bolt, the bolt looks really skinny (some people call them "paper clips") but is super strong.
We have both 1/2" Twisted Leg bolts and the larger 5/8" Twisted Leg bolts which can be used to re-drill wallowed out holes in softer rock, in fact I'm boxing up 80 long 5/8" Twisted Leg bolts right now for replacement in Zion (those cool sport routes in Kolob Canyon).
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 24, 2016 - 04:11pm PT
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Has anyone pulled glue ins? Seems like it would be easy to set the base of a small hydrolic jack's base against the rock, set up some sort of cable/screw compatible with jack shaft threads with a hook on the other end and pump them out?. All sorts of different bolts to pull. Phew!
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Juicer
Trad climber
SLC
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Aug 24, 2016 - 04:25pm PT
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With all due respect, I don't buy the assurance that a single axis, loose and spinning, adhesive bolt is full strength. We pulled 3 out of 4 loose, un-embedded, Fixe glue-ins with a 3 lb. slide hammer. Difficulty of removal varied, and we couldn't pull the one with the most play, go figure. Any way you cut it, a loose adhesive bolt does not meet the general expectation.
Nice adaptive core drilling approach for that 12mm installation!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Aug 24, 2016 - 05:24pm PT
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Juicer, a 3 lb slide hammer generates how much force?
wstmrnclmr, I was curious about the same thing. Invariably someone will eventually use glue ins to retrobolt without moral authority (e.g. FA author approval).
In the past, haven't they been cut with a battery powered diamond edge grinding wheel? Probably not recommended, but perhaps a 3 lb slide hammer might rip out enough to be able to pull and then use natural stone/dust locally sourced to patch back over it.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 24, 2016 - 05:58pm PT
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The question in conversation with a friend was how to test beforehand for climbing specific, real time scenarios? Most anchors in the past were off the shelf and not climbing specific. Some have worked well, some not but almost if not every anchor has been field tested over time. Are the glue ins or other anchors being designed specifically for the climbing environment and scenarios being tested in a controlled environment? Most construction anchors have pull and shear loads etc. and some great work has been done by supertopians but it seems like no testing done to mimic actual climbing situations. The news that single shaft anchors with no buffer between the rock and the shaft can cause significant wear (my friend in Josh pulling wedges says that after the nuts are removed that he's noticed up to 30% enlargement of the hole by simply moving the stud from side to side. He noticed no play in 5 pc. bolts)was news to me and that we are seeing failure (spinning etc.) of glue ins possibly due to same loading over time. Can a factor 2 fall over and over again on a vertically placed single shaft glue in cause it to pull? And to go back to OP, is planning for future replacement planed in? So far trial and error has been the norm? Is that good enough?
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:36am PT
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The current standard requires the bolt provides resistance to rotation, there is a torque test. Notching the head in doesnīt count as many bolts are designed not to be notched and there can be other issues if this is done. Normally the rotation is prevented by cutting the end of the shaft at 45° for single stem bolts. Buhler style bolts need nothing.
Single-stem bolts have a unfortunate characteristic that very occasionally they come slightly loose, we call these "clickies". Iīve seen five in my time. They all proved to be incredibly difficult to remove, the worst one took 18kN straight out pull to remove. The others were irremovable. We donīt really know why this is but temperature plays a role, we checked one on a hot afternoon and it moved but the next morning in the cool when we went to replace it it was solid and couldnīt be moved with a wrecking bar.
The resin used seems to make no difference.
European certified bolts are tested to replicate climbing situations to a certain extent (there is a repeat loading test as well as the final failure testing) but obviously it would be ridiculously expensive to test for every possible scenario. In reality we have tens of thousands of bolts being tested in every possible scenario every weekend and the standards are designed on the basis of this experience and modified to suit any new experience. All equipment standards are produced on the basis of the theoretical needs and long term experience.
We have tested one of our bolts (the one pictured above from Clint Cummins) with repeat loads of 25kN pulling straight out. After 1,000 pulls we got bored and started to up the load, after 1400+ pulls the test block cracked in half at 45kN.
Resin life is unknown, we know of areas where polyester car body filler is still doing fine after 40 years and others where Hilti epoxy is letting go after 18yrs. Quick setting cement appears to have the best long-term reliability but itīs not real easy to use!
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