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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Jul 26, 2016 - 11:38am PT
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I like the Bechtel "Cirque and Deep Lake" book. Good quality paper and binding, accurate info, full color. If you're Wyoming local you'll maybe climb most of the routes in the book in a season. But because it's a "select" book, it has the advantage of being light enough that you can actually pack it in.
I haven't been back to the Winds since the 2013 Joe Kelsey book was released, so I don't know how the two stack up against each other. Obviously the new book is far more comprehensive, if that's what you're looking for.
Edit:
lol hate on sloan's new book and you're a hero but apparently the winds book is sacred.
I think the difference is, in preparing his book, Steve Bechtel didn't go around adding bolted anchors to other peoples routes in order to make them more "accessible" to the masses. Most of the hate Erik receives is centered on his bolting practices, not the quality of his guidebooks.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Jul 26, 2016 - 11:54am PT
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At least it's not a piece of sh#t Stewart Greene book.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 26, 2016 - 12:08pm PT
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Your head is up your butt - I like Sloan, his books and about 99.9% of his bolts, and I've never posted otherwise. Green's guides have their place, I have a few. The old Black book is a POS, but I bought it and appreciate its presence. I pretty much appreciate all things of actual substance people pour into the climbing community. OP has zero class.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jul 26, 2016 - 12:39pm PT
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Matt being rude does not automatically invalidate his high opinion of MP; Steve being a nice guy whose book was great a decade ago does not guarantee that his book has not become outdated. Matt, you know there are many kinder ways to communicate "if you are going to the Wind Rivers, MP has a lot of wonderful topos that aren't found in the guidebook!" that wouldn't have made it sound like you were slinging crap at the author.
The generalization that that crowd-sourced information is inherently worse and that the hard work of an individual is inherently better is a bit misguided; I think "looking sketchy" sums it up pretty well:
Crowd sourced on-line route information, at its worst, is poorly vetted and hugely inconsistent in accuracy and detail. At its best, it doesn't have the space limitations of print media and can provide additional information, detail and historical context -- as well as benefiting from a larger consensus opinion.
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Greg Maschinot
climber
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Jul 26, 2016 - 01:07pm PT
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I wonder if the OP realizes that with every one of his responses he sounds like a larger and larger tool.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Jul 26, 2016 - 02:06pm PT
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Green's guides have their place,
If that place is your butt I would agree.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Jul 26, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
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This has become a backhanded acknowledgement of the excellent website of Steph Abegg.
Her website is the foundation of a cutting edge, best-of-all worlds web-based climbing guidebook to the best of Western American rock climbing.
Check it out and send her an appropriate acknowledgment of her excellent website!
http://www.stephabegg.com
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 27, 2016 - 02:46am PT
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Great....your a real balls-craftsman. Kudos to you.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 27, 2016 - 09:37am PT
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Guidebook authors need thick skins....no matter what the quality of their work there will always be detractors.
Guides seem to come in two versions....select and comphrehensive. The select books are suitable for newcomers to an area who want to sample the best (at least by author's opinion) in an area. Climbs in a select book can usually found on the internet.
Comprehensive books are for area aficionados who want to seek out hidden pearls that only rarely are found in the usual internet formats.
Case in point...the new Black Canyon guide. I consider myself an aficionado of the Black yet this book astonished me with it's wealth of information about climbs i either was unaware of or had little information on.....let the feast begin!
There are essentially three sources for getting information on climbs....guides, internet, word of mouth. Between those sources and your own route finding skills you should be okay.
Guidebook authors are not in it for the money and their work is tedious....let's give them a hand for their efforts.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Jul 27, 2016 - 10:12am PT
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Re Donini's thick skin to publish a guide. It's a thankless task and really not terribly profitable. I came to think that a guidebook is a lot like writing a technical document with all the ratings and descriptions, the former being a pretty subjective judgement. Writing something that technical, when your only peer review is going to be the shitstorm you invoke when you publish it, causes you to wonder if it was worth the effort.
I used to put out a couple of guides in NorCal. Some people were just amazing in their pickiness, esp ratings ("oh, that's not b, that's c" etc etc.)or the unclimable nature of something (which generally stemmed from their gross lack of ability, but, hey, if you can't do it, shoot the messenger).
Anyway, I think it's a good guide: well done, accurate and portable. Thanks again for your hard work, Steve!
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Jul 27, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
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Matt,
here is where I think your proclamation is a wishful expectation:
I believe guidebook authors have a higher threshold to cross before publishing a book.
And in this quote:
The book contains less information (and no more routes) than freely available sources ....
Such data can be measured and your assessment may be correct. I can appreciate such comparisons for they show both what you feel is relevant in a guidebook and whether you think the particular author has met your criteria of a good guide.
And Jack Nicholson might say,"There are a few good men that don't use them stinkin' guidebooks.
But, is a list of routes a useful guidebook? You might do as good with a GPS and the coordinates.
In the end you may like best the data that would have made a not to successful trip more successful -- sometimes this data can be provided by guidebook writers -- whether authored in books or the web.
An author would do better knowing his audience and what they want?
And it is in this Ephemoreality that holds what is important to us while the rest of all time is bull-shite.
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SeanH
Trad climber
SLC
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Jul 28, 2016 - 10:32pm PT
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Maybe its the crowdsource sites like MP that need to go.
And someday it will and all those electrons will be released to roam the cosmos again.
Ephemeral.
DMT
OR maybe crowdsourced sites like MP need to be owned by a not-for-profit (i.e. not REI), and coalesce into one true, open source, Wikipedia like guide to all routes.
Books get out of date, and go out of print.
There should be a de facto place to view the latest conditions of a route, see if a key bolt needs replacement, who the FA was (and how to contact them, if possible), see what avian closures are in effect, etc.
I do believe that such a thing needs to come into existence (perhaps under the wing of an organization like the AAC).
On a side note, without these crowd sourced, internet based sources of information on routes - all you crusty old farts on here who are gonna turn over in your grave when someone replaces that shitty star drivin with a new bolt, or be pissed off when someone in 2135 A.D. decides that 2 bolts over 80 feet sucks, and no one climbs the route anymore, so it's getting retrobolted - how do you expect the sanctity of these things to be preserved? It's not gonna be in books.
(Side note - Guide books have been rad. Have spent a lot of money, always full price - on them over the years. Perhaps they will become antiquated, or perhaps they will stick around as a supplement. I definitely don't know.)
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SeanH
Trad climber
SLC
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Jul 29, 2016 - 09:16am PT
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DMT - I mean, nothing to stop one from NOT looking at such a resource, and just getting directions to the trailhead.
If someone asks which topo you used or where you got your beta, you can say you went for the G.W.Bush style ascent - just looked the topo up in mah gut, had a feelin where the route went. Didn use none of that fancy book crap!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 29, 2016 - 02:57pm PT
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I generally cut guidebook authors a ton of slack. Frankly, they're doing a ton of leg work that others have clearly decided is not worth their time, and to share their knowledge with others, rather than hoarding it for themselves and their buddies. However, this statement:
Flaws in a guidebook? Cherish them! They are the stuff of campfire legends. Yes and no. We followed some completely inaccurate info about the descent off a Sierra peak that lead to someone taking a nasty, near fatal fall when a block came loose on him. Was it an adventure? Yes, in a sort of sick, masochistic way. Would my friend have gladly skipped that adventure and the resulting injuries? Absolutely.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 29, 2016 - 04:18pm PT
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The better and more detailed the information for the route - the more likely the route will be overrun with the kinds of people who require that level of detail. In this case - I think the entire Cirque is done, no interest in ever going back.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Jul 30, 2016 - 02:21am PT
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DMT said:
Its almost as if there is an expectation, nay, a duty, to report route info. Or like its a required step of new routing....
That about nails it. Certainly going that way on this side. Consumers, eh?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 30, 2016 - 09:41am PT
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^^^
Well the trend is certainly to provide not only more info, but also make it more slick and presentable. I've read folks grumbling that a guide needs to be updated because the photos are wanting or, worse, simply not in color. I remember an earlier thread here where some one reported hearing a climber in Tuolumne complaining to his partner that he didn't want to lead a climb because he forgot his Supertopo guide book. Gone are the days where a Roper guide made descriptions vague to augment the sense of adventure and discovery.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Jul 30, 2016 - 09:44am PT
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he didn't want to lead a climb because he forgot his Supertopo guide book.
That is called the worm turning and grasping for any excuse
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Let us know!