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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 25, 2016 - 09:42am PT
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I made the mistake of buying the steve bechtel guide to the cirque of the towers/wind river range, and am warning others not to make the same mistake.
In my opinion, guidebooks like this should not exist anymore. In the age of the crowd-source dinformation on the internet, I believe guidebook authors have a higher threshold to cross before publishing a book. The book contains less information (and no more routes) than freely available sources like mountainproject or steph abegg's website. It contains no topos, just line overlays on pictures (many of the pictures coming direclty from steph abegg) and vaguely written route descriptions.
best,
matt
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elemental
Gym climber
Lander, Wyoming
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Jul 25, 2016 - 05:58pm PT
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Hi Matt,
Thanks for the feedback. I am sorry you had a bad experience with the book. Joe and I enjoyed putting that book together back in 06/07 and have had a lot of positive feedback. I would be glad to offer you a refund if you care to send the book back my way. Hit me with a PM and we can arrange it.
Steve Bechtel
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 25, 2016 - 06:17pm PT
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Way to man up Steve. I've got your guidebook, love it, and do not have those issues that Matt has. This might be one of those "your results may vary kind of things". I don't tap into Mt Project except to see what the star ratings are and see if anything has fallen off any routes I plan on doing.
Regards to all -
Matt started the thread thus: "I made the mistake of buying the steve bechtel guide to the cirque of the towers/wind river range, and am warning others not to make the same mistake.
In my opinion, guidebooks like this should not exist anymore. In the age of the crowd-source dinformation on the internet, I believe guidebook authors have a higher threshold to cross before publishing a book. The book contains less information (and no more routes) than freely available sources like mountainproject or steph abegg's website. It contains no topos, just line overlays on pictures (many of the pictures coming direclty from steph abegg) and vaguely written route descriptions.
best,
matt "
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COT
climber
Door Number 3
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Jul 25, 2016 - 07:30pm PT
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Nice Steve!
Dave A
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 25, 2016 - 07:39pm PT
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Haha...feel free to use the Kelsey book instead. I thought the Bechtel book was fine, maybe even dumbed the routes down a bit with too much detail.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Jul 25, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
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I really liked Steves guide book!
And Steve is a class act!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 25, 2016 - 10:07pm PT
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Steve is a class act for sure. And back-country mountain guidebooks shouldn't be awash in detail; there's more than enough of that type of minutiae for all our local crags, where the people who can't do without that type of instruction should stay.
As for MP being a "better" source, something about that has always bothered me. People use guidebooks like Steve's and Joe's to get into and explore an area, post more detailed descriptions at best and thinly-veiled plagiarism at worst, and then we read complaints that MP is "better." A whole lot of MP wouldn't exist at all without the guidebooks, and I think the guidebook authors don't get their due.
So here's a contrary thought: if you use MP and find it helpful, then even if you don't use the guidebook, go out and buy it anyway as a gesture of support for the person whose hard work and dedication made most of those descriptions possible.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 25, 2016 - 11:20pm PT
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Steve is a class act for sure. And back-country mountain guidebooks shouldn't be awash in detail; there's more than enough of that type of minutiae for all our local crags, where the people who can't do without that type of instruction should stay.
As for MP being a "better" source, something about that has always bothered me. People use guidebooks like Steve's and Joe's to get into and explore an area, post more detailed descriptions at best and thinly-veiled plagiarism at worst, and then we read complaints that MP is "better." A whole lot of MP wouldn't exist at all without the guidebooks, and I think the guidebook authors don't get their due.
So here's a contrary thought: if you use MP and find it helpful, then even if you don't use the guidebook, go out and buy it anyway as a gesture of support for the person whose hard work and dedication made most of those descriptions possible.
Steve-- thanks for the offer for the refund, it's very generous. I bought the book in Pinedale, and want to support the local climbing store there.
Rgold-- your point is valid-- there is definitely cross-pollination between published guidebooks and mountainproject. The data goes both ways, probably mostly guidebook to online, though that will probably change in the future.
In the case of the climbs I was interested in the Winds, the topos and photo overlays published on mountainproject and summitpost seemed originally drawn. It's a bit hard for me to imagine how they could be plagiarized from Bechtel's book.
For example:
https://www.mountainproject.com/v/109375801
http://www.summitpost.org/pingora-peak-northeast-face/121455
http://www.summitpost.org/east-ridge/64229
https://www.mountainproject.com/v/110785874
Additionally, there were a large number of Steph Abegg's photographs in the Bechtel book, and the cynical side of me wondered if they were all available on her website...
best,
matt
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Jul 26, 2016 - 04:13am PT
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In the age of the crowd-source dinformation on the internet (...) freely available sources like mountainproject
Well THERE'S the fundamental problem with info/topos/descriptions from the internet - they are just that - a collection of random stuff from random folk who may or may not know what they're talking about. In France we have 'camptocamp' in place of Mountain Project. Topos/descriptions of any route anywhere can be posted by anyone and then further edited/added to/updated ad nauseam by anyone. C2C's champions are an ever growing community of consumers with an incredible sense of entitlement, however they overlook the fact that A LOT of the material available on their site is at best sketchy and at worst just plain wrong. With a guidebook written by a knowledgeable author you're going to get accurate descriptions and just as importantly, a consistency that is impossible with hundreds or thousands of folk's input.
And, and this is a big AND, guidebooks over here plough back profits into equipping/re-equipping/access/path reconstruction/belays etc etc. By relying on on-line stuff and not buying guides, you're cutting your own throats as it effectively reduces the flow of new routes...
Rant over (for now).
And to Steve Bechtel... congratulations, fabulous reply!
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Jul 26, 2016 - 06:24am PT
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nice strawman response by Matt's to RGold: "It's a bit hard for me to imagine how they could be plagiarized from Bechtel's book."
here's part of what RGold actually wrote: "People use guidebooks like Steve's and Joe's to get into and explore an area [and] post more detailed descriptions... go out and buy [the original guidebook] anyway as a gesture of support for the person whose hard work and dedication made most of those descriptions possible."
<rant>
Matt's response is similar to a simpleton who goes to walmart, looks at a chinese made piece of nicely formed plastic of dubious quality for $5 and then bitches about the american made, more simply formed but of robust quality for $35 version... i wonder if s/he gets "cynical" over higher priced higher quality american made product as well? or just free photos on the internet?
want to get stuff for free... cool.
is there better info to be found for free... sometimes.
does a person come off as a doUche when they fail to understand and respect the work and process that has often allowed that free info to come into existence... yes.
</rant>
"best",
nah000 [less of a class act, than almost everyone else on this thread so far... except Burch of course]
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 26, 2016 - 08:31am PT
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Yes, Matt didn't fully understand my point. Outright plagiarism on MP and SP is pretty rare in my experience, although I did recently come across a post that simply quoted the guidebook and inserted a few comments at different places.
My main point is that many, perhaps even most, of the people writing things up for MP and SP would never have made it into the areas they are documenting if not for the existing guidebooks. Even if they have improved on those guidebooks (and not introduced new errors), those improvements owe a significant debt to the guidebook authors who opened the doors for them.
So I think that almost everyone who uses information from MP and SP is piggy-backing on the work the guidebook authors put in (with the exception of one or two horrendously bad guidebooks whose authors deserve no credit for anything). Those authors are not getting rich, their hard work and expertise has been churned into free information, and I'm saying do the right thing and buy the guidebook anyway, because you wouldn't have gotten that "free" information without it.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2016 - 08:37am PT
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Matt's response is similar to a simpleton who goes to walmart, looks at a chinese made piece of nicely formed plastic of dubious quality for $5 and then bitches about the american made, more simply formed but of robust quality for $35 version... i wonder if s/he gets "cynical" over higher priced higher quality american made product as well? or just free photos on the internet?
want to get stuff for free... cool.
I think the proper analogy is that I bought the $35 american-made widget, and then realized that there was a group of people who loved making widgets in there spare time, distributed those widgets for free, and whose widgets were of higher quality than the store-bought version.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 26, 2016 - 08:38am PT
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And those people all studied and learned from the $35 widget before attempting to make their own.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 26, 2016 - 08:50am PT
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I'll take less information from one pro over the chatter of a 1000 unknowns, noobs and fools any day. The book is small and well bound, good photo quality, I liked it. This new generation can't climb w/o a move by move go-pro movie of the whole route in advance - bunch 'o fuk'n pu$$ies.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2016 - 08:51am PT
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My main point is that many, perhaps even most, of the people writing things up for MP and SP would never have made it into the areas they are documenting if not for the existing guidebooks. Even if they have improved on those guidebooks (and not introduced new errors), those improvements owe a significant debt to the guidebook authors who opened the doors for them.
So I think that almost everyone who uses information from MP and SP is piggy-backing on the work the guidebook authors put in (with the exception of one or two horrendously bad guidebooks whose authors deserve no credit for anything). Those authors are not getting rich, their hard work and expertise has been churned into free information, and I'm saying do the right thing and buy the guidebook anyway, because you wouldn't have gotten that "free" information without it.
Rgold-- as I mentioned in a previous post, I do agree with you, there is a cross-pollination between private data (guidebooks) and public data (mountainproject). The private data is often the foundation upon which user-generated data is added.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2016 - 09:02am PT
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And those people all studied and learned from the $35 widget before attempting to make their own.
those people bought the guidebook (most likely)-- they then went out to the wind river range, and spent their own time and effort to take their own pictures, draw their own topos, write their own route descriptions....
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jul 26, 2016 - 09:23am PT
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There are many cases of the opposite as well where guidebook authors and other writers have "borrowed" info either freely available or from other authors as well. So there is two sides to that coin. I know when I have put up routes I usually put it on Mountain Project and I know people who have written things that end up in guidebooks and other publications without permission, credit or reimbursement. Internet seems to be a free for all and we are not going back to the telegraph.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2016 - 09:47am PT
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Well THERE'S the fundamental problem with info/topos/descriptions from the internet - they are just that - a collection of random stuff from random folk who may or may not know what they're talking about. In France we have 'camptocamp' in place of Mountain Project. Topos/descriptions of any route anywhere can be posted by anyone and then further edited/added to/updated ad nauseam by anyone. C2C's champions are an ever growing community of consumers with an incredible sense of entitlement, however they overlook the fact that A LOT of the material available on their site is at best sketchy and at worst just plain wrong. With a guidebook written by a knowledgeable author you're going to get accurate descriptions and just as importantly, a consistency that is impossible with hundreds or thousands of folk's input.
That's the whole point of my post-- I really like guidebooks, I own probably 20 of them. Most of the time, the guidebook has been the authoritative and factually correct voice, with the public information being mostly useless. The only reason I started this post was because, in my opinion, the mountainproject information for cirque of the towers was of higher quality than the Bechtel guidebook (and without being plagiaristic or derivative, in my opinion).
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Jul 26, 2016 - 10:09am PT
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RGold has brought forth some very good points, which Matt seems to acknowledge. Both on line and print guides have strengths and weaknesses.
Crowd sourced on-line route information, at its worst, is poorly vetted and hugely inconsistent in accuracy and detail. At its best, it doesn't have the space limitations of print media and can provide additional information, detail and historical context -- as well as benefiting from a larger consensus opinion.
In practice, MP and other on-line route descriptions (unlike Wikipedia) can only be edited by the original poster (or MP administrators). As such, descriptions and accuracy varies wildly. And, for more obscure routes and areas it may not be entirely trustworthy. Information can also be incomplete.
Print guides do not have the luxury of providing a lot of extra details and ideally should be concise, while providing enough accurate information to get you to, be able to follow the line of, and descend off a particular climb.
The strength and weakness of a print guide is that one (or more) people compiled and wrote the entire book. There tends to be a consistency in the information (for the better or worse). Also, in the best cases, the authors have personally checked out each climb -- even those obscure or less popular routes which on-line data or most climbers ignore.
Putting together a guidebook involves gathering information from a wide variety of sources, formats and quality. Today that means looking at on-line sources of information, as that may be the primary source of information about a particular climb. Then, this information should be field checked, corrected and written (drawn) up in a consistent manner, adding details as necessary.
Climbing routes and inspecting the crags personally means that other routes or conditions may be noted for which no information is currently available, resulting in more investigation and research. Depending on the diligence of the author(s), the results always vary.
But, unless you have undertaken putting together a guide (even to a relatively small area), you can't really fully appreciate the work that goes into such projects. My hat is off to anyone brave or foolish enough to slog through the process. Their effort is typically under-appreciated, and always wide open to critique.
Personally, I have found that the most valuable aspect of MP (as a guidebook editor) is the consensus opinions as far as ratings are concerned. Absent such an on-line resource, getting the opinions of so many people as to the difficulty or quality of a route would be near impossible. Not that these are always to be taken as gospel, but, they absolutely help.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 26, 2016 - 11:22am PT
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I want the "best" and I feel cheated when I don't get it - what is up with that piece of this sh!tshow? Too much Facebook = a self esteem tied to rampant consumerism?
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Jul 26, 2016 - 11:38am PT
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I like the Bechtel "Cirque and Deep Lake" book. Good quality paper and binding, accurate info, full color. If you're Wyoming local you'll maybe climb most of the routes in the book in a season. But because it's a "select" book, it has the advantage of being light enough that you can actually pack it in.
I haven't been back to the Winds since the 2013 Joe Kelsey book was released, so I don't know how the two stack up against each other. Obviously the new book is far more comprehensive, if that's what you're looking for.
Edit:
lol hate on sloan's new book and you're a hero but apparently the winds book is sacred.
I think the difference is, in preparing his book, Steve Bechtel didn't go around adding bolted anchors to other peoples routes in order to make them more "accessible" to the masses. Most of the hate Erik receives is centered on his bolting practices, not the quality of his guidebooks.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Jul 26, 2016 - 11:54am PT
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At least it's not a piece of sh#t Stewart Greene book.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 26, 2016 - 12:08pm PT
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Your head is up your butt - I like Sloan, his books and about 99.9% of his bolts, and I've never posted otherwise. Green's guides have their place, I have a few. The old Black book is a POS, but I bought it and appreciate its presence. I pretty much appreciate all things of actual substance people pour into the climbing community. OP has zero class.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jul 26, 2016 - 12:39pm PT
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Matt being rude does not automatically invalidate his high opinion of MP; Steve being a nice guy whose book was great a decade ago does not guarantee that his book has not become outdated. Matt, you know there are many kinder ways to communicate "if you are going to the Wind Rivers, MP has a lot of wonderful topos that aren't found in the guidebook!" that wouldn't have made it sound like you were slinging crap at the author.
The generalization that that crowd-sourced information is inherently worse and that the hard work of an individual is inherently better is a bit misguided; I think "looking sketchy" sums it up pretty well:
Crowd sourced on-line route information, at its worst, is poorly vetted and hugely inconsistent in accuracy and detail. At its best, it doesn't have the space limitations of print media and can provide additional information, detail and historical context -- as well as benefiting from a larger consensus opinion.
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Greg Maschinot
climber
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Jul 26, 2016 - 01:07pm PT
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I wonder if the OP realizes that with every one of his responses he sounds like a larger and larger tool.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Jul 26, 2016 - 02:06pm PT
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Green's guides have their place,
If that place is your butt I would agree.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Jul 26, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
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This has become a backhanded acknowledgement of the excellent website of Steph Abegg.
Her website is the foundation of a cutting edge, best-of-all worlds web-based climbing guidebook to the best of Western American rock climbing.
Check it out and send her an appropriate acknowledgment of her excellent website!
http://www.stephabegg.com
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 27, 2016 - 02:46am PT
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Great....your a real balls-craftsman. Kudos to you.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 27, 2016 - 09:37am PT
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Guidebook authors need thick skins....no matter what the quality of their work there will always be detractors.
Guides seem to come in two versions....select and comphrehensive. The select books are suitable for newcomers to an area who want to sample the best (at least by author's opinion) in an area. Climbs in a select book can usually found on the internet.
Comprehensive books are for area aficionados who want to seek out hidden pearls that only rarely are found in the usual internet formats.
Case in point...the new Black Canyon guide. I consider myself an aficionado of the Black yet this book astonished me with it's wealth of information about climbs i either was unaware of or had little information on.....let the feast begin!
There are essentially three sources for getting information on climbs....guides, internet, word of mouth. Between those sources and your own route finding skills you should be okay.
Guidebook authors are not in it for the money and their work is tedious....let's give them a hand for their efforts.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Jul 27, 2016 - 10:12am PT
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Re Donini's thick skin to publish a guide. It's a thankless task and really not terribly profitable. I came to think that a guidebook is a lot like writing a technical document with all the ratings and descriptions, the former being a pretty subjective judgement. Writing something that technical, when your only peer review is going to be the shitstorm you invoke when you publish it, causes you to wonder if it was worth the effort.
I used to put out a couple of guides in NorCal. Some people were just amazing in their pickiness, esp ratings ("oh, that's not b, that's c" etc etc.)or the unclimable nature of something (which generally stemmed from their gross lack of ability, but, hey, if you can't do it, shoot the messenger).
Anyway, I think it's a good guide: well done, accurate and portable. Thanks again for your hard work, Steve!
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Jul 27, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
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Matt,
here is where I think your proclamation is a wishful expectation:
I believe guidebook authors have a higher threshold to cross before publishing a book.
And in this quote:
The book contains less information (and no more routes) than freely available sources ....
Such data can be measured and your assessment may be correct. I can appreciate such comparisons for they show both what you feel is relevant in a guidebook and whether you think the particular author has met your criteria of a good guide.
And Jack Nicholson might say,"There are a few good men that don't use them stinkin' guidebooks.
But, is a list of routes a useful guidebook? You might do as good with a GPS and the coordinates.
In the end you may like best the data that would have made a not to successful trip more successful -- sometimes this data can be provided by guidebook writers -- whether authored in books or the web.
An author would do better knowing his audience and what they want?
And it is in this Ephemoreality that holds what is important to us while the rest of all time is bull-shite.
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SeanH
Trad climber
SLC
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Jul 28, 2016 - 10:32pm PT
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Maybe its the crowdsource sites like MP that need to go.
And someday it will and all those electrons will be released to roam the cosmos again.
Ephemeral.
DMT
OR maybe crowdsourced sites like MP need to be owned by a not-for-profit (i.e. not REI), and coalesce into one true, open source, Wikipedia like guide to all routes.
Books get out of date, and go out of print.
There should be a de facto place to view the latest conditions of a route, see if a key bolt needs replacement, who the FA was (and how to contact them, if possible), see what avian closures are in effect, etc.
I do believe that such a thing needs to come into existence (perhaps under the wing of an organization like the AAC).
On a side note, without these crowd sourced, internet based sources of information on routes - all you crusty old farts on here who are gonna turn over in your grave when someone replaces that shitty star drivin with a new bolt, or be pissed off when someone in 2135 A.D. decides that 2 bolts over 80 feet sucks, and no one climbs the route anymore, so it's getting retrobolted - how do you expect the sanctity of these things to be preserved? It's not gonna be in books.
(Side note - Guide books have been rad. Have spent a lot of money, always full price - on them over the years. Perhaps they will become antiquated, or perhaps they will stick around as a supplement. I definitely don't know.)
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SeanH
Trad climber
SLC
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Jul 29, 2016 - 09:16am PT
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DMT - I mean, nothing to stop one from NOT looking at such a resource, and just getting directions to the trailhead.
If someone asks which topo you used or where you got your beta, you can say you went for the G.W.Bush style ascent - just looked the topo up in mah gut, had a feelin where the route went. Didn use none of that fancy book crap!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 29, 2016 - 02:57pm PT
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I generally cut guidebook authors a ton of slack. Frankly, they're doing a ton of leg work that others have clearly decided is not worth their time, and to share their knowledge with others, rather than hoarding it for themselves and their buddies. However, this statement:
Flaws in a guidebook? Cherish them! They are the stuff of campfire legends. Yes and no. We followed some completely inaccurate info about the descent off a Sierra peak that lead to someone taking a nasty, near fatal fall when a block came loose on him. Was it an adventure? Yes, in a sort of sick, masochistic way. Would my friend have gladly skipped that adventure and the resulting injuries? Absolutely.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 29, 2016 - 04:18pm PT
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The better and more detailed the information for the route - the more likely the route will be overrun with the kinds of people who require that level of detail. In this case - I think the entire Cirque is done, no interest in ever going back.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Jul 30, 2016 - 02:21am PT
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DMT said:
Its almost as if there is an expectation, nay, a duty, to report route info. Or like its a required step of new routing....
That about nails it. Certainly going that way on this side. Consumers, eh?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 30, 2016 - 09:41am PT
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^^^
Well the trend is certainly to provide not only more info, but also make it more slick and presentable. I've read folks grumbling that a guide needs to be updated because the photos are wanting or, worse, simply not in color. I remember an earlier thread here where some one reported hearing a climber in Tuolumne complaining to his partner that he didn't want to lead a climb because he forgot his Supertopo guide book. Gone are the days where a Roper guide made descriptions vague to augment the sense of adventure and discovery.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Jul 30, 2016 - 09:44am PT
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he didn't want to lead a climb because he forgot his Supertopo guide book.
That is called the worm turning and grasping for any excuse
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Jul 31, 2016 - 05:22pm PT
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Some feedback to/for a guide book author [or a warning to potential buyers?] posted on Mountain Project about the authors guide of the same area described on Mountain Project.
Brian Scoggins
From: Laramie, WY
Jul 24, 2016
rating: 5.7
This is listed in Orenzak's guidebook as "mainline", and it's given 5 stars. It also says that you can walk off to climbers left after doing a single rappel.
What isn't stated is that you should plan on leaving slings to do that one rap, since there are no bolts, and that the descent is probably impossible as a walk off. We left some cord and a rap ring.
There's also a metric f*#kload of loose rock in the descent gulley you rap down, so my new rope is now core-shot garbage, and you absolutely must have dual 70m ropes to rappel that gulley.
Good climbing until then, but the impossibly shitty descent beta completely countered the otherwise decent experience.
F*#k you Zach Orenak. If you can't be arsed to get the right beta for your favorite first ascents in your own book, you should just leave the guidebook writing to all the former collaborators you've dicked over in the past.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jul 31, 2016 - 08:38pm PT
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Well, ahem, from my advanced age, I think one very good reason to purchase those guidebooks is to have the pleasure to reliving routes we no longer climb. Guidebooks are good nostalgia, too.
I can appreciate the nuances of the route through the eyes of another, maybe several others, and not only stay current on safety considerations, but also get to enjoy some great memories. For people who have many years of climbing behind them, guidebooks are some of the simple trophies to cherish, along with photos, videos, trip notes, and maybe a rock sample or three.
Just a thought.
feralfae
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 31, 2016 - 08:52pm PT
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Where is that route Dingus? Zach booksindon't lean to dble 70 raps very often...
Btw is Rachel pregnant?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Hi Jaybro,
Rachael due Nov 5. Zach says they don't know who the father is.
The rock dome of the route is about 2 mi WSW of Laramie Peak just north of Bear Creek. It is big so 70m is possible. I did third class down from there but needed to use a high angle dead tree against the rock to descent one cliffy section.
Aug 23 2017 Laramie Peak is in focal area of solar eclipse. One could see early effects to the east coming quite well as you get quite a view of the eastern low lands.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Thanks Dingus.
Congrats Rachael... And Zach...
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Aug 22, 2016 - 02:06pm PT
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I believe the high resolution photodiagrams, such as those created by Mark P Thomas, are the thing of the future. Steph Abegg has also learned to produce high quality photodiagrams, perhaps from Mark, and I always look in their two websites to see if the route I plan to do is documented. I still carry a detailed topo such as Supertopo for fixed protection, climbing features, belay ledges, and other detail that would clutter a photodiagram. Word descriptions not so much anymore, unless nothing else is available.
Anyone who wishes can still use their old guidebook, and their rack of hexes and have a great day out.
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