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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 24, 2016 - 11:06am PT
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It was Khrushchev's missile crisis. It was also his downfall, and this led to a much more dangerous time, when Andropov's KGB held the levers of power in the Soviet Union. JFK's moves at the time astonished the Soviets, but there were unintended consequences.
edit: Hillary has shown herself to be an interventionist, at least when she's second in command.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jul 24, 2016 - 11:17am PT
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With the fall of communism throughout the the Soviet block the intelligence services were disbanded and sent forth to nurture and grow the seeds already planted worldwide. Some landed on our shores to paint our houses, wash our dirty dishes, and eventually design drugs for the pharmaceuticals that allowed for the frogs to be slow boiled while maintaining the bliss of ignorance. OR NOT.
HAHA-HEHE
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Jul 24, 2016 - 11:25am PT
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Ksolem...skimmed that interview, thanks...Trump is against the liberal elites but not the conservative elites..? What's the difference...? Is one form of snobbery and prejudice less evil than the other..? Trump is playing the class warfare card from his golden throne to whip up some votes from the poverty stricken hillbillies...I can't see Trump doing anything to ease poverty in America unless he boots the 12 million illegals out to create more job opportunities for the hillbilly's who surely aren't going to work for the slave wages the hispanics are willing to work for...What a mess..
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John M
climber
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Jul 24, 2016 - 11:26am PT
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Ksolem... thanks for the recommendation on the article. I probably never would have seen it. Every one needs to read it. A most excellent article. I will see about buying his book.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-us-politics-poor-whites/
On the other hand, as a conservative, I grow weary of fellow middle-class conservatives acting as if it were possible simply to bootstrap your way out of poverty. My dad was able to raise my sister and me in the 1970s on a civil servant’s salary, supplemented by my mom’s small salary as a school bus driver. I doubt this would be possible today. You’re a conservative who has known poverty and powerlessness as well as wealth and privilege. What do you have to say to your fellow conservatives?
I think you hit the nail right on the head: we need to judge less and understand more. It’s so easy for conservatives to use “culture” as an ending point in a discussion–an excuse to rationalize their worldview and then move on–rather than a starting point. I try to do precisely the opposite in Hillbilly Elegy. This book should start conversations, and it is successful, it will.
Liberals have to get more comfortable with dealing with the poor as they actually are. I admire their refusal to look down on the least among us, but at some level, that can become an excuse to never really look at the problem at all.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 24, 2016 - 11:35am PT
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In a way politics is like military strategy. A vacuum, unoccupied territory, is an opportunity which can be exploited to advantage.
Or a trap.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Jul 24, 2016 - 11:36am PT
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I think you hit the nail right on the head: we need to judge less and understand more.
Bingo.
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John M
climber
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Jul 24, 2016 - 11:37am PT
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RJ... you should have done more then skim the article. He talks about the problems that both groups of people have. For conservatives he says its not just a case of "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps". There are policies that can help people overcome their background and we should be looking for and implementing them.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Jul 24, 2016 - 11:42am PT
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John M... Don't tell me what to do...! :) Gotta get some chores done and doing the typical tug of war between the chores and reading supertopo... I'll re-read again..
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Jul 24, 2016 - 11:47am PT
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It was Khrushchev's missile crisis. Ksolem, I am not sure about your knowledge of history.
I just want to remind you that this missile crisis started with deployment of short range missiles near the borders of Soviet Union.
Khrushchev responded with deployment of missiles in Cuba.
JFK had an option to negotiate with Soviets and to offer to remove US missiles stationed near the borders of Soviet Unions in exchange for removal of missiles stationed in Cuba.
Instead he started pushing Khrushchev for unilateral removal of Soviet missiles.
The whole point of staging a Cuban Missile Crisis by JFK was to remove soviet missiles deployed near US borders while keeping US missiles deployed near USSR borders.
Khrushchev did not blink. JFK was forced to negotiate and agreed to remove US missles. However first JFK put the world on a brink of a nuclear war.
Please disregard this history lesson if you already know the whole story of Cuban Missile Crisis.
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John M
climber
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Jul 24, 2016 - 11:49am PT
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Its worth reading RJ.. He really does talk about what both sides of the aisle need to see, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. Its an interview though, so it does break it down into parts.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jul 24, 2016 - 11:59am PT
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gee, and all this time I figured he was famous for facing down Russia during the Cuban Missile Crisis, how silly of me
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 24, 2016 - 12:14pm PT
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Kennedy was gonna Make America Great Again, he had vision.
Today he would be moderate Republican, even conservative. A little cliche, but to all the millennials asking where their American Dream is?
I paraphrase Kennedy:
"Ask not what this country can do for you, but what YOU LOSERS are gonna do for this country, other than whine!"
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Jul 24, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
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it's interesting watching the left become the new right...
and i don't mean [just - ha!] in terms of policy.
i mean in terms of the use of fear-driven, fundamentalist-style coercion: "vote for hillary or the whole world will end... literally!", "trump is the rise of a new hitler, pol pot, khazynski... literally!", and etc...
basically fear based rhetoric that, if it were true, makes it so that there can only be one action to take.
and so just like the right and centrist leaning fear generators that used the same type of rhetoric to push the iraqi war [including on this very board] in the early aughts, you lefties are going down the same road.
because here's a simple test to explain why your fear based rhetoric is mistaken and/or a lie: unless you have joined in with escopeta and are buying up ak's, stockpiling munitions and training in the hills of los angeles then you folks claiming that trump will or could be the start of a "regime" are lying to yourselves.
while it's stating the obvious, that's because there is a whole system of checks and balances and if you think that trump is going to be able to run amok over all of them, then there are bigger fish to fry than just trump.
seriously, if you lefties think that trump is, in one or even two cycles, going to be able to transition the u.s. into some form of a hard or soft dictatorship, then it doesn't matter who gets in because your system has already failed and it's time to start preparing for actual revolution.
but, none of you advocate that. you just want to coerce people into an x on a ballot.
and so you don't actually believe what you say you do.
ecdh already nailed everything else a couple hundred posts ago.
finally one last rant: nobody on this board seems to give a shIt that the dnc, that is supposed to be a neutral organization, has been proven, by the most recent wikileaks email dump, to be in bed with both hillary [proving the "bernie-bros" and anybody with open eyes correct] and many media services as well [my personal favorite so far was the "agreement" a politico reporter had with the dnc to have them review his story before even his editors had and which along with everything else that was shown proves at least to some degreee the ole smoking duck and fox network correct regarding their left wing media bias and cia news network claims]
because who cares about the faux or at least manipulated "democratic" processes and media collusion in your own camp? who cares that hillary is for all objective historical record purposes [other than her current rhetoric] what used to be a centrist republican [before the republicans decided to move to a form of neo-fascism]?
one can't worry about any of that when there is a boogeyman like trump in the room...
in the word of bernie sanders:
BOO!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jul 24, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
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Nuclear missiles were deployed to Turkey before Kennedy became President.
The 1 megaton warheads were always in American custody; however, the authority to launch the missile was reserved for both American and Turkish air crews.
During the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Kennedy administration secretly agreed to remove the Jupiter missiles from Turkey in exchange for the withdrawal of all Russian nuclear weapons from Cuba.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jul 24, 2016 - 01:46pm PT
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In a very responsible move by another billionaire businessman:
Michael R. Bloomberg, who bypassed his own run for the presidency this election cycle, will endorse Hillary Clinton in a prime-time address at the Democratic convention and make the case for Mrs. Clinton as the best choice for moderate voters in 2016, an adviser to Mr. Bloomberg said.
The news is an unexpected move from Mr. Bloomberg, who has not been a member of the Democratic Party since 2000; was elected the mayor of New York City as a Republican; and later became an independent.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/dismayed-by-trump-bloomberg-will-endorse-clinton/ar-BBuKThI?li=BBnb7Kz
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John M
climber
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Jul 24, 2016 - 01:54pm PT
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Nahoo
seriously, if you lefties think that trump is, in one or even two cycles, going to be able to transition the u.s. into some form of a hard or soft dictatorship, then it doesn't matter who gets in because your system has already failed and it's time to start preparing for actual revolution.
not my main concern with Trump.
My main concern with him is him starting WW3, or at the very least pissing off enough people around the world that we find ourselves in serious trouble with things like financial war. He acts like a bully and he seems to think that we can do whatever we want to with no consequences. World politics goes well beyond school yard bully economic principles. He could wreck us financially and or start a major war.
China and Russia are not our friends, but at this point they also aren't aggressively our enemies. We have detente to some extent. That could easily go south because we are talking about some extreme personalities that don't respond well to bullies. Could you imagine him saying that we aren't going to pay back our debt? And what atmosphere that might create. Things could go south very quickly as the world is not run by level headed people.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jul 24, 2016 - 02:14pm PT
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while it's stating the obvious, that's because there is a whole system of checks and balances and if you think that trump is going to be able to run amok over all of them, then there are bigger fish to fry than just trump.
seriously, if you lefties think that trump is, in one or even two cycles, going to be able to transition the u.s. into some form of a hard or soft dictatorship, then it doesn't matter who gets in because your system has already failed and it's time to start preparing for actual revolution.
There are a lot of checks and balances at the domestic level. At the foreign level, not so much. Where were the checks and balances that kept us out of Vietnam? Alternately, you get a Commander in Chief that beats the war drum loud enough and congress rolls over and 2 Trillion dollars (and countless dead and wrecked lives) later we are still mired in Iraq.
You get a Foreign secretary that wonders out loud whether the US really cares about Korea and you end up with the Korean war.
You get a POTUS who speculates that maybe the Baltics just aren't worth defending and maybe Putin sees it as an opportunity to pull another Ukraine.
The POTUS could pull all the troops out of Iraq/Syria or the POTUS could deploy tens of thousands and there are no "checks and balances" that is going to stop that.
President Trump could misplay his hand and get into a shooting war in the China sea.
Hillary is more Neocon than Obama but her approach will generally be more of the same.
Trump? Who knows but this attitude that it can't be any worse is ludicrous.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 24, 2016 - 02:20pm PT
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President Trump could misplay his hand and get into a shooting war in the China sea.
Right now I'm starting to wonder why shots haven't been fired already!
Of course, it's because we have a push-over Prez. Never saw a real confrontation he couldn't simply dismiss by 'issuing' a red line.
Get it? He does nothing! He makes fuking inconsequential acclaims.
What a leader. It no wonder other leaders think he's a push-over.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Jul 24, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
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John M and August West:
to some degree, i'd agree that those are fair points. and i don't have an issue if you want to make an argument like that. just not a fan of fundamentalist histrionics that can't see the other side of the coin.
regardless you'd have to convince me that hillary is less of a threat to world stability, in the long run, anyway. one listen to her speech to aipac, her stances on libya and syria and past statements regarding iran, make me believe that the long term repercussions of the obama policies of terroristic action in the middle east [the let's continue to kill civilians more often than we kill the actual military targets with our drone strikes and the targeting of funerals and first responders in so-called double tap strikes] are the least of our future worries if she gets into power.
but again, even with her, she hopefully would have a house and senate to get through and a voting public to manipulate.
same as trump.
you'd also have to convince me that trump really gives a shIt about anything. nytimes claims that kasich was offered purview of all national and international policy if he would run with trump as his vice president. as there are no names attached to the nytimes story and the trump organization is full of so much shIt, that even if it was offered, who knows what the reality would be, still i'm not convinced that trump really gives a shIt about anything other than seeing his name lit up in gold above the white house and more importantly that even if he tries to do everything he has said so far, that he could actually do anything significant...
i admit i could be wrong. it would be a gamble for sure... but here's why i'd take it:
it's because a successful presidential bid by hillary takes us globally and you domestically further down the road that has led the u.s. to a point where a policy-free, narcissistic, blowhard, doUchebag actually has a chance.
unless, someone can convince me that the whole thing, and not just parts, is already a sham, then i'd gamble that the u.s. can survive a trump presidency, and in the process deflate a bunch of the hot gas that has accumulated in mistaken places and then hopefully allow enough time to pass, that a bunch of the older generation will die off, so that the next generation can move on to navigating actual real reform...
clinton and kaine are both proud and avowed continuations and likely expanders of the present global/domestic economic and militaristic status quos that have brought us to a place where trump is a real possibility.
to continue down the same road and expect a different result would i suspect, in the long run, be mistaken.
but at the end of the day, who knows...
except for one thing: unless some of you chaps have found trump's version of mein kampf that you'd like to share, this bull-shIt about trump being hitler or whatever other dictator you'd like to choose, is repulsive.
in fact i'm sure hitler is rolling over in his grave as we speak, annoyed that his hard earned and richly deserved phd in evil is being compared with a mere garden variety blowhard capitalistic petty criminal.
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John M
climber
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Jul 24, 2016 - 03:40pm PT
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regardless you'd have to convince me that hillary is less of a threat to world stability, in the long run,
Here is my thinking. I do not like Hillary. I agree that she is part of the establishment that has taken us for a ride. A fairly disgusting ride.
My problem is that while I do not like the status quo which Hillary represents and I am pissed that the Dems sabotaged anyone else from having a chance against her, I believe that Trump is so much worse then the status quo. Yes the status quo brought us to this point of Trump possibly being president, but I do not believe that the solution is Trump.
I rate the two this way-
Hillary most likely won't get us into a third WW.
Trump has a much great chance of doing that. He is a careless and thoughtless egomaniac.
While Hillary has a fairly large ego, Trump is egomaniacal.
A third world war would be disastrous.
I also offer this. My father has been a life long republican from Texas. He is a conservative Christian who is fiscally conservative, yet somewhat socially liberal. When Trump started taking the lead, and Cruz was number 2, my father told the GOP that he would no longer financially support them for the mess that they had helped create. I was in the room when he told them. He says Trump or Cruz would be terrible and that neither should have ever gotten any power. I believe that he would have voted for Kasich.
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