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labrat

Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
Jul 21, 2016 - 01:01pm PT
I'm for Clinton..... Not too happy about it but she is certainly less likely to do catastrophic damage...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 21, 2016 - 01:04pm PT
Much as I agree with you, another thread like this is really not needed or helpful. Matter of fact, it just pisses off a lot of people.
labrat

Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
Jul 21, 2016 - 01:08pm PT
"Much as I agree with you, another thread like this is really not needed or helpful. Matter of fact, it just pisses off a lot of people."

And he didn't even put OT in the title.......

Shame!
Shame!!
SHAME!!!
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 21, 2016 - 01:15pm PT
Who do you think really counts all these "votes"?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jul 21, 2016 - 01:29pm PT
Decades after the fall of the Third Reich, it feels impossible to understand how Adolf Hitler, the tyrant who orchestrated one of the largest genocides in human history, could ever have risen to power in a democratic country. So how did it happen, and could it happen again? Alex Gendler and Anthony Hazard dive into the history and circumstances that allowed Hitler to become Führer of Germany.


[Click to View YouTube Video]

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 21, 2016 - 01:45pm PT
Oh, they're not 'unsuspecting', Moose. They are conscious, and fully complicit. That's the scary reality about them...and they'll be around even if he loses.

Any chance you could nuke this thread?
Norton

Social climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 01:57pm PT
great

the admins already nuked three other political threads recently

how long before they nuke HDDJ's?

so time to start another one!

NUKE THIS ONE

couchmaster

climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:12pm PT


Meh, old newz Moose.



wait, hmmmm....mayhaps the choice is not so clear at first glance?

sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:15pm PT
Don't nuke this thread, moose. This is the turning point for the US. There are two POS's running for office. It is truly the nadir of American politics, and from here on out, the political landscape will change dramatically in this country. Neither one is qualified to be POTUS, but alas, here we are. It is truly a case of voting for the lesser of 2 evils. I'd vote for Obama again, like I did in the last 2 elections. Clinton is distasteful, but the idea of some golf club swinging, reality tv show host calling the shots is simply untenable.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:21pm PT
Most people that I talk to can't stand either candidate, so who is voting for them I'd like to know. You can't have that many village idiots, can you?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:23pm PT
There are two POS's running for office.

This is nonsense.

Shame on you for buying into the R narrative. What was it bengazi or emails? Foster?



Neither one is qualified to be POTUS

More nonsense.

Get real.


....


Moose, ignore him. What else do expect from someone's who proud to claim he's got no beliefs? Think about it... Has he ever posted anything that isn't glib or flip about something important?
John M

climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:29pm PT
the other threads got nuked for a few reasons. One was that there were too many and they were taking over the forum. But also because they got mean. If you can find a way to discuss ideas and not just trash each other, then I believe the mods will leave these threads alone.

I suggest nuking the main thread every once in awhile and starting a new one. Once they reach a certain size, then they carry too much of a negative energy and they devolve. That or do like other large threads, such as the stoneman threads. Don't nuke it, just start a new thread and link it to the old one.

I like your post moose.. I am currently wrestling with the notion that letting the country sink might be the only way for some people to wake up. But I also believe that some people won't ever wake up, and thus its best to keep the country from imploding and pray that some day God will see fit to end their time. ( this will of course cause some to lose their minds because oh my goodness, I mentioned God. It will cause others to lose their minds because they don't believe in reincarnation. )

the overwhelming negativism is kind of mind blowing. Many here act like they are above it, and yet they post negative post after negative post, adding to the ugliness. At some point it has to stop.

I like Chris' occasional house cleaning.

And just to be clear, I believe the occasional knock down drag out online fight is fine. They have a possibility of clearing the air. Its the constant sniping that is not healthy. And I include Werner's sniping in that. Just because I agree with him on many things does not mean that I always agree with his methods.

Carry on Crankloons
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:31pm PT
Hey dude, I don't give two shits about what the cons say. In fact, I give half a sh#t or perhaps a 1/4 of one if that. The best the dems can come up with is Hilary Clinton? How about Elizabeth Warren for POTUS, instead of the wife of a former president who was sticking cigars in his intern in the Oval Office while being impeached? I'm voting for the lesser of 2 evils, and fukin Drumpf has no business whatsoever dictating the future of the country.
PS. BENGHAZI!!!!!!1111
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
who was sticking cigars in his intern in the Oval Office while being impeached?

Forgive me, I forgot to mention that one.


So how do you know, brainiac, that in his moment with Monica they weren't celebrating another uptick in the economy or a great new trade deal with Vietnam? Were you there to note the context? Those were good times all the way around. Nation wise. Economy and business wise. That is what counts.

It's a shame you've fallen for some stupid Judeo-Christian ethic concerning sex and its dirtiness.


You should NOT give TWO Shits about Clinton's sex life as long as he's done his job.


FYI, HRC's been in the trenches fighting the good fights (for women, eg, for health care) for 25 plus years. For christsakes you should recognize that and appreciate it. Instead look what we get from you: the Republican talking point. :(
labrat

Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:40pm PT
"Donald Trump raised doubts about whether the United States under his leadership would come to the aid of its NATO allies in Europe in the event of an attack by Russia, in an interview with The New York Times on Wednesday"


I'm sure our NATO allies feel great about comments and stories like this.....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:46pm PT
Moose, NutAgain and Warbler... three of the smartest here at ST!
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:47pm PT
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,"
santayanna

I'm sure our NATO allies feel great about comments and stories like this.....

and yet he wants NATO to carry more of the load in taking on ISIS.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:48pm PT
He could stick cigars up his own ass for all I care, brainiac. I care nothing about religion, religious values, etc. All I stated was that this was the best the dems could come up with. So, I have to fervently believe in HRC to vote for her? They're politicians, they're all crooks. Who can raise the most money..oh, it's always about money. I'm on the same side as you, and yet here you are, calling me out on bullsh#t.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:50pm PT
All I stated was that this was the best the dems could come up with.

So are you taking into acct the very real, very relevant fact that HRC had to work with(in) the system we've inherited? and that she still does?

Indeed, did she not try to fight it, as a maverick, 25 years ago? and there were lessons learned by her, were there not.

Remember, my main objection was calling her a POS. Very unjustified, imo.

He could stick cigars up his own ass for all I care, brainiac. I care nothing about religion, religious values, etc.

This is good.


Sorry we don't agree more.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:55pm PT
yes, yes i am. If she were to have come out on here own, without a presidential legacy behind her, she'd be an instant shoe-in. Damn dude, I don't hate the woman, I just believe her associations with her philandering husband (who I voted for twice because I don't care about his personal life) has hindered what could be a landslide victory. It just gives the shithead cons a pulpit to preach from. That's all.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:55pm PT
Moose... can't you see that some of us see things 180 degrees differently than you do.

Go and walk around my middle class neighborhood and talk to my neighbors.

The only poll that matters is the election in November.

Carry on.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 02:55pm PT
So, I have to fervently believe in HRC to vote for her?


of course not, wherever did you get that idea?

you don't even have to vote for anybody

probably tens of millions of people who vote for Trump or Clinton purely as a vote against the other one

nothing wrong with that, been going on for over 200 years in America
WBraun

climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:06pm PT
moosedrool -- "BELIEVE ME, I'VE SEEN IT ALL"

Another absolute made by those who vehemently claim there's no absolutes.

Just give it up.

You people prove every day here how clueless you really are ......
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
But I will vote for her amigo, because drumpf is no way shape or form qualified to be POTUS. How is it possible this jagoff has gotten as far as he did? It simply boggles the mind. How has the GOP fallen so far? Was it Dubya that did it in? The endless wars that grind on and on and on? Or is it the simpleton republican voter that wants to make America great again by building a fukin wall across Mexico and deporting all Muslims based on the actions by a few self-proclaimed jihadis? Perhaps it's the defunding of Planned Parenthood because they sell "baby parts?" Fuk's sake, the GOP is filled to the brim with stupid, and it's nothing but a detriment to the forward progress of this country.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:10pm PT
I am glad you shared your perspective. You have had experiences most of us have not.
I was not feeling bullied or told how to vote but simply asked, if I chose to, to listen (read) about another's perspective. It's good food for thought.
I'm often intrigued by others who share a significantly different perspective than mine when they discuss (write) in a sensical logical manner without going crazy weird bat sh#t.

Thanks Moose!

Susan

Edit.
How has the GOP fallen so far
. For whatever reason they fell prey to the fringe ultra red meat eaters. We desperately need a robust two party system and this does not bode well.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:15pm PT
If you currently enjoy your access to OUR Federal public lands, it would be a very good idea to not vote Republican.



GOP Platform Supports Transferring Western Public Lands To States

The new language in the platform, approved Monday, states:

“Congress shall immediately pass universal legislation providing for a timely and orderly mechanism requiring the federal government to convey certain federally controlled public lands to states. We call upon all national and state leaders and representatives to exert their utmost power and influence to urge the transfer of those lands, identified in the review process, to all willing states for the benefit of the states and the nation as a whole. The residents of state and local communities know best how to protect the land where they work and live.”
http://www.opb.org/news/series/election-2016/republican-platform-public-land-privatization/
dirtbag

climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
I hear ya Moose.

Never, in our lifetimes, has a candidate been so grossly unqualified to become president. He is absolutely awful in so many ways, including his authoritarian tendencies.

Now he says he might not honor nato commitments, an organization that has largely been responsible for peace in the West for over 60 years.

Absolutely reckless and ignorant.


John m wrote:
Don't nuke it, just start a new thread and link it to the old one.

Interesting idea!
ecdh

climber
the east
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:21pm PT
I agree moose. But sadly i think the US needs to go thru this. Neither choice is good. Its a choice between bad change and bad inertia.
I doubt either will get a second term, so play the long game.

I hate trump and what he stands for which is pure reactionary crowd revelling, hes a cargo cult big man whose followers suffer from stockholm syndrome. Hes not a hitler hes a gang leader.
But like bad leaders he may just be the innoculation the US needs against further presidential idiocy, whereas clinton is obviously a further creeping spread of an existing disease.

Its a gamble, but i think the people of the US will better recover from trump than from clinton, stronger rather than more strung out.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:22pm PT
Drill, baby, drill. It's like the GOP is the dark side of the force. They're a parody of evil. Gays=bad. Blacks=bad. Muslims=bad. Mexicans=bad. Women? Well, they should be at home tending the children and cooking the meals while the men are out,uh, swinging golf clubs and sending other people's kids off to war to secure those natural resources that Americans deserve because, well, they're americans..
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
Trump= arch enemy of the usual suspects; haters all.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:37pm PT
moose has seen more hardship than you ever have, faroukbitch.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:37pm PT
...sadly i think the US needs to go thru this... may just be the innoculation the US needs...

you mean like the atom bombs dropped on H and N? perhaps they innoculated the U.S. and the world against worse?

...

But I will vote for her amigo, because drumpf is no way shape or form qualified to be POTUS. How is it possible this jagoff has gotten as far as he did? It simply boggles the mind. How has the GOP fallen so far? Was it Dubya that did it in? The endless wars that grind on and on and on? Or is it the simpleton republican voter that wants to make America great again by building a fukin wall across Mexico and deporting all Muslims based on the actions by a few self-proclaimed jihadis? Perhaps it's the defunding of Planned Parenthood because they sell "baby parts?" Fuk's sake, the GOP is filled to the brim with stupid, and it's nothing but a detriment to the forward progress of this country.

Right on. :)
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:44pm PT
I rant well, and farouk is still a fukin bitch.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:47pm PT
From what I've occasionally read, Rick Sumner has always struck me as smart and thoughtful, not glib or flip nor retrogressive. So it blows me away that he is a Trump supporter. (Politics makes strange bedfellows?)
Norton

Social climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
really? you have not been paying attention to Rick's political posts then
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
oh yeah, a true con. suck this, suck that. larry craig is waiting for you in a bathroom stall, with dennis hastert wanting seconds. bitch.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:51pm PT
Well, in my defense, I haven't studied him.

(Perhaps I'm biased by his pioneering FAs?)
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
hey farouk, medusa needs his ball sack shaved. accommodate him please.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
don't mistake me with your mother. I know we're both hairy, but her hair is longer.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 21, 2016 - 04:05pm PT
Trust me, the Trump movement is one of those movements that convert democracies into regimes.

Uh, you clearly never studied the constitution or how our government works. Of course,
it would be OK if Bernie brought about regime change, right? Democracy is a bitch when
it doesn't go yer way.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 04:10pm PT
Your teeth are clamped too hard on poor medusa's sack. look at the anguish on the distraught fellow's face. loosen up a little and he might not slap you around for good measure when he's finished.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 21, 2016 - 04:29pm PT
Moos said...
I also think that most of us want the same, a safe place where we can live and raise our children. Anything more is a bonus.


Agree 100% I would add this to your statement.... where we can live free and raise our children.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 21, 2016 - 04:36pm PT
Moosie, dear fellow, there ain't gonna be no damn revolution cause
we don't have enough guns! Now, if you'll excuse me, I gotta get on
a plane to go see my mullah in Zermatt. He's gonna top rope me on a
bit of sweetness on der Kleine Matterhorn.
steveA

Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
Jul 21, 2016 - 04:46pm PT
If you haven't read this-you ought to!

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jul 21, 2016 - 04:55pm PT
no wrong thread
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 21, 2016 - 05:06pm PT
unless the GOP can produce someone who isn't a bible thumping, racist homophobe, the odds are we'll have a dem in office for the next 1,000 years.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 21, 2016 - 05:09pm PT
The Trump movement is one that requires two flushes.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 21, 2016 - 05:44pm PT
Moose.... you should flush this topic, down now.

can't you see that some people resort to insults and juvenile name calling within the first two or three pages.

its just the way it is.

nice try.

Rilley.... luck with big M ....
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Jul 21, 2016 - 05:52pm PT
A sentence proclaiming totalitarianism using the evidence of "trust me." I like it :-)
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 21, 2016 - 06:18pm PT
One way to obstruct trump's proposals is to vote in a new congress. If the dems can get control of both the house(unlikely), or senate(likely), they can do to trump what the repubs have done to Obama.
The other thing is that the ACLU has said that most of trump's proposals are unconstitutional,
Consequently, I see a litigious four years.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Jul 21, 2016 - 07:45pm PT
Farouk is wise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Jul 21, 2016 - 07:48pm PT
... sible (Billary)

I never forgot waiting in mile long gas lines under the Carter administration.
ecdh

climber
the east
Jul 21, 2016 - 08:00pm PT
revolution? no. the US public is too varied and the politics too diverse. theres not enough power held by any one sector for any majority to revolt against, the democratic system works well enough to keep things reasonably civil - as has been shown countless times.

and inoculation as in hiroshima? no, and i dont even get where that comes into it. my angle is inoculation as in trump gives rise to specific elements of bottom-feeding politics to a degree such as they are defined and excised from future process. most presidents leave a smear on their time the country grows past to prevent happening again - my thoughts are trump will leave a bumper crop.

seriously, have a quick look at what makes up the cargo cult model; the promise of the return of an age of plenty is hijacked by 'big men' who makes themselves the apparent mediators. they lay on loads of generosity the followers then owe them for, and erect distracting monuments they cast blame on rather than assume it themselves when the golden era fails to arrive. its word for word trump.

stockholm syndrome too; as#@&%es like trump have held middle america hostage for decades, its exactly his cronies that f*#ked the economy with their impulse buying and f*#ked politics with their shadowy relationships. all the while the public had no foresight of where it would lead them, and now they scramble for the crumbs of positive recognition thinking they will be spared, thinking the guy who holds their rights will favor them.

the good thing with trump is it will fall apart fast, the smoke and mirrors revealed and the sideshow seen to be little more. the political system will shrug him off as hess too much hard work being in constant damage control, the public wont find it fun when they see how much is unrealistic to make happen and they are left with just another slimey technocrat.

clinton is grim, its a grim we know. theres no banana either for electing her, if anything it just postphones the next clown - and there will be one.

id call it a write off this time round. vote for minimal damage control and aim to do it better next time. america! you have 4 years to work on it. use the time wisely this time round.
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jul 21, 2016 - 08:02pm PT
Uh, you clearly never studied the constitution or how our government works.

It works?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 21, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
I confess to not watching Repubican "warm-up" speakers at their convention tonight, but after NBC news our TV switched to their convention speakers.

It's all about making Americans scared that if Trump doesn't "fix America" we will all be killed by terrorists.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 21, 2016 - 08:42pm PT
Lollie, your sarcasm is duly noted and approved! But in this case 'works'
pertains more to "continues to function" because of or in spite of the checks
and balances which either thwart or safeguard what is arguably a very good
system. At times, often times, I pine for a parliamentary system but that
method has not necessarily distinguished itself, especially of late.
Ta det med ro. ;-)
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 21, 2016 - 09:21pm PT
Lollie.. .LMao...good one...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 21, 2016 - 09:43pm PT
Dude, that was some low-hanging fruit.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jul 22, 2016 - 01:02am PT
Any chance you could nuke this thread?--Apogee
That was a good one, Apogee.

If Trump is elected I will volunteer to shoot anyone* who feels "responsible."

But they are off my Christmas card list until after the impeachment.

*Proof of voting necessary.
Sittings for the photographs must be arranged for in advance.
Make your reservations early, I expect a HUGE response.
Not to mention a HUGE backlash; and maybe even a HUGE war with Mexico!
Wouldn't that be just like old times?

We can call it "Trump's Mexican War," and it's bound to solve the border problem.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:27am PT

It could be worse.
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:35am PT

Big Words/Weak Sauce

Bombastically pessimistic
Lambasting the populace
Protuberant with petulance
Pissing to the left
Pissing to the right
The bloated angry baboon theatrically demonstrates his salient carpet defecation bombing policies to the masses
Who chant in unison
Profuse with primitive white inbred ignorance
Spurring the fatuous polemic utterances of their champion
Who vomits his ignorance upon the unwitting television viewers
As they wait with bated breath
And accept his fetid offerings in kind

-bushman
07/22/2016
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jul 22, 2016 - 07:21am PT
Trump is a textbook narcissist.

We are witnessing the early stages of a rare yet historicly devastating social phenomenon.

This is the genesis of a symbiotic relationship forming between a genetically predisposed and disaffected segment of the population and a sociopath.

The inability to analyze the complex root of their plight along with the lack of skills to adapt to rapid social and economic change has this fringe particularly susceptible to the rhetoric of a charismatic narcissist.

It's really a very simple message- Trump promises to reshape society back to the fifties when the white, Christian male had systemic advantage. His dominance was unchallenged within the family unit and his community.

I was camping in the Sierras recently and was disturbed by a large group of Latino campers. They were clearly from some farm town down in the valley. It was obvious they had very little knowledge of camping etiquette and had no idea how to commune with nature (like those of European descent). They were nice enough, offering tequila and food every time I walked by their camp, yet the loud Mexican cowboy music, laughter late into the evening and trashy campsite had me pissed off. Not to mention this was bear country and there was copious amounts of meat being grilled around the clock with none of the typical precautions taken.

After stewing over this for sometime I realized that I was giving into deep seated bias that had been pounded into my subconscious by family and society. This could easily have been a white family listening to Hank Williams and they probably would not have offered me any food or alcohol. And in terms of the grilling of meat and unkept site, even the bears know not to go into that camp looking for trouble.

zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 07:25am PT
Kevin - that's two sharp eyes in a week or so. Thanks. I would have missed that Trump article if you hadn't commented. Triple double, hit for the circuit? And yes your comment was on the spot also.

The article gives substance to most everybody's observations with regard to the lying of Trump and the origin of the (self-made) myth of himself that Trump has tried to create.

I'll join with Steve and you in commending it.


http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all


Trump confirms the veracity [reality?] of the article in typical fashion.

“It’s nuts and completely indicative of who he is,” Mr. Schwartz said. “There’s no basis of anything legal. I suspect that Donald Trump called up his chief legal officer and said, ‘Go after that guy and do whatever you have to do.’ ”
WBraun

climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 07:57am PT
You Americans are totally irresponsible.

You believe everything you're spoon fed by your stupid mainstream media.

You fall for every distortion they throw at you.

You are totally mind controlled.

All while you daily defend your brainwashing ......
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jul 22, 2016 - 08:09am PT
Werner sometimes has an amazing talent for telling it exactly as it is.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 22, 2016 - 08:23am PT
There's going to be some water over the dam by November.

Gary Johnson, who got 1% max last time around, is polling around 12-13% trending up. 15% gets him on the debate stage with Clinton and Trump. That will make things interesting.

I'm not on board with all of his policy ideas, but at least he has actual ideas and is willing to talk about them instead of sloganeering. And in terms of intellect and candor he can run circles around the other two. And he's a God damned climber :-) It's an interesting ticket, both are two term governors, Johnson winning twice in a state which is 48% Hispanic. And FWIW Johnson was talking about legalizing pot way before it was on the political horizon.

I turned off the sound on Trump last night after he said he was about to list his economic plans and didn't. I was under the impression that the people at the convention were waiting with anticipation for his actual plan, but apparently lip service and then going off on a tangent was good enough.

Watching with the sound off was disturbing. I know, supporters will say that's stupid, how can you judge by not listening? But when you just see the spectacle, and he could be speaking in any language, as could the chanting crowd, well for me this cast a whole new light on things.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jul 22, 2016 - 08:39am PT
I have to admit that Gary Johnson has some reasonable ideas out there. Interesting alternative...
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 22, 2016 - 08:48am PT

And he's a God damned climber :-)

I wouldn't put a lot of credence in that Kris. You, and I both know plenty of climbers who are whack jobs
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 22, 2016 - 08:51am PT
^^^
Hoo-boy, you got that right....
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jul 22, 2016 - 08:55am PT
Never trust a man who claims to be a self-made man.

Just look at his fake hair, fake smile, and fake plans for the country.

He'll fake the oath of office if ya don't watch him.

But watch, there's more. He could win a second term if he's voted in once.

It's happened.

Or are memories really that short?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 22, 2016 - 09:00am PT
Never trust a man who claims to be a self-made man.

That's a pretty broad brush there Moose.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 09:16am PT
Taking the advice of anyone else..whether on this site or anywhere else.....is grossly irresponsible.

All of us are informed by others.


Are you a Trump supporter, Cragman?


If so, curious to hear YOUR top three reasons if so inclined.
pb

Sport climber
Sonora Ca
Jul 22, 2016 - 09:16am PT
moosie you got some splianing to do
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 22, 2016 - 09:34am PT
Kris, I didn't say that. LOL

We're gonna have to take this up at a campfire some eve. Sometimes things get lost in the translation on the web. I just copied and pasted so I figured, well, whatever... Cheers!

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 22, 2016 - 10:25am PT
Just listen to Gary Johnson for a few seconds.....

a vote for him is a throwaway vote.

The best thing about our elections is this......


Its a secret ballot.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 10:34am PT
Fruc....that's entirely none of your business.


I figured as much.
He's really got you in a pickle I imagine.

Anyways, thanks for the reply.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 10:35am PT
Cragman, at least think about becoming a liberal Christian (based on a liberal theology). Imo, you're way too smart for the Hannitys, Limbaughs and Falwells.

And you're way too sensible compared to the Klimmers.

Being Responsible


It's the responsible thing.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 22, 2016 - 10:42am PT
The beauty of this country is we're still free to speak openly and dissent. We have a ways to go before the election. So it's anybody's guess.

I would actually welcome Gary Johnson on the stage at a debate. Not a bad guy from what I've seen. But not a leader.

Johnson will never be president. I don't even think he wants the job. I think he does it for the attention. But that's just my opinion.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 22, 2016 - 10:44am PT
I was pondering the idea of the Bernie supporters that can find no way to vote for Mrs. Clinton. Seems like they act like their vote is the most important thing in the world. Certainly voting is important but there are many other things we do in this world that matter. I recycle. I pick up trash and do cleanups (Facelift). I fight for clean air and clean water. I work hard to source fish from sustainable sources. I eat a very plant based diet. I ride my bike.

Pondering these things it occurred to me that if the Orange Turd somehow makes it into the Gold House I might as well just say f*#k it to doing all that sh#t. It won't matter. It'll be an uphill battle to fight for what is right while we march towards world war 3.

So in light of the fact that I do many other things in life that are important to this world we live in it's easy to cast my vote for Mrs. Clinton (though I'm really hoping Colorado will go blue so I can write in Frank Zappa again). to say it doesn't matter is some of the most ridiculous sh#t that could be stated.

But hell... I don't know.... Make America White again and lets see what happens.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 10:58am PT
Nature, I feel pretty good about virtually all of the Bernie people voting for Clinton.

think back to 2008 when Hillary had a huge block of supporters who were stunned when this almost unknown first term black Senator got more votes and became the Democratic nominee instead of her

polling after the election showed that as they were largely firstly democrats who did not want to see to another Republican John McCain as President, and so they voted for Barack Obama

currently the polling in the critical Electoral rich swing states shows Hillary with a small but firm lead over The Donald but polling should be more definitive in about two weeks after both parties have had their big conventions
dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 11:06am PT
So where do you guys think Trump stands right now: did the convention help or hurt him?

I really have no idea.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 22, 2016 - 11:12am PT
My guess is he'll get a bit of a bump, but not as much as Manafort & co thought he would. Then it will quickly fade, as the real Donald returns, offending one group or another with some nasty comment.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 22, 2016 - 11:12am PT
Just listen to Gary Johnson for a few seconds.....

a vote for him is a throwaway vote.

I'll repeat.., in a non-competitive state, e.g. like CA which Hillary will win, voting third party expresses support for an alternative to the two most bought and paid for parties.

In a swing state I'd vote for the lesser of two evils. But in a non-swing state I'd vote Libertarian or Green.

With the Internet things are changing, special interest money and mainstream media coverage is getting less important . If more and more people vote 3rd party we will eventually have a candidate with a shot of winning.

Ross Perot (a nut) got 19% of the vote in 1992.

I think after we see an independent run in the middle instead of far left or far right we'll see independent voters and moderate voters give them a real shot.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 22, 2016 - 11:21am PT
A vote for the Green Party is an even More of a Waste of Vote than for the Libertarian Party.

I love the Green Party and would be a member if it had Any Kind of Infrastructure as a Party.

There is no American Green Party to speak of, it's just some people that come out every 4 years and act as an alternative for Liberals to vote for.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 22, 2016 - 11:24am PT
The best thing about our elections is this......Its a secret ballot.

The worst thing about our election process is how our candidates are fed to us.

Most people don't understand that primary elections are not a function of government. They are a circus run by the corrupt political clubs we call parties. They can, and do, change the rules as they please, often midstream. How did Romney get the nod last time around? How did Clinton win this time?

I'll give you this. Trump pulled off a big one by swimming upstream to get the nomination. But don't be fooled by his claim that the record turnouts in the republican primaries show a groundswell of support for him. He never made half the vote. More people voted against him than for him very time. So the logical conclusion to draw is that the voters were motivated, yes, but against Trump. If the losers would have cleared the table soon enough, Trump would be a has been for the Presidency.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jul 22, 2016 - 11:29am PT
Where does Trump stand now Dirt? Well, he would have been in good standing if he hadn't stepped on his dik this morning and thrown away a good portion of Cruz's supporters while going on endlessly belittling Ted and by extension his base voters. Pence, who was standing behind him during the diatribe, should have given him a swift kick in the ass. Ahead two steps and backsliding one and a half.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 11:36am PT
Vote your conscience, right.

But what if you're Trump and you don't have one? He doesn't.



Anyway, if Trump had been president rather than JFK, we'd all be dead or radioactive. Brush up on your history dudes.


dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 11:44am PT
Where does Trump stand now Dirt? Well, he would have been in good standing if he hadn't stepped on his dik this morning and thrown away a good portion of Cruz's supporters while going on endlessly belittling Ted and by extension his base voters. Pence, who was standing behind him during the diatribe, should have given him a swift kick in the ass. Ahead two steps and backsliding one and a half.

Yep. He just doesn't care to apply a filter.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 22, 2016 - 12:02pm PT
Pondering these things it occurred to me that if the Orange Turd somehow makes it into the Gold House I might as well just say f*#k it to doing all that sh#t. It won't matter. It'll be an uphill battle to fight for what is right while we march towards world war 3.

If trump gets elected, the environmental/conservation movement will be set back fifty years.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jul 22, 2016 - 12:44pm PT
10b4me-
If trump gets elected, the environmental/conservation movement will be set back fifty years.

Game, set, match in that regard about 3 Republican administrations ago.

I can't believe people fell for the "climate hoax" hoax- they scewed their own because a handful of "hired gun" scientists on Fox new fooled them silly.

Best off taking steps to financially gain from the misery as our current Republican candidate has admitted to doing during the Great Recession.
Coach37

Social climber
Philly
Jul 22, 2016 - 01:07pm PT
I think after we see an independent run in the middle instead of far left or far right we'll see independent voters and moderate voters give them a real shot

John Anderson 1980 ring a bell? Didn't work then, unlikely to work now. Anderson drew from the middle, and got blown out.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Jul 22, 2016 - 02:01pm PT
You are totally mind controlled.
Taking advice of anyone else ... is grossly irresponsible.

Ok, ok, you love yourself - we get it! How many ways do you need to say it? You're an omniscient omnipotent bastion of individuality, crafting your well-considered beliefs based on truth and superior neurological functioning, while the rest of us humans are stupid pathetic sheep. Yea you! Aren't you a wonderful marvel of nature, I mean aren't you a wonderful marvel of your own creation!

But the rest of us all believe that same thing about ourselves too. It's our survival of the fittest birthright. The reason we're so brainwashed by the idea is because we're all born with these clean brains. Some of us are just more brainwashed by the idea than others.

Is it any wonder that we worship the lord of the white narcissists?
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jul 22, 2016 - 02:34pm PT
If trump gets elected, the environmental/conservation movement will be set back fifty years.

You could get a lot more done to conserve our environment with the EPA gone.

Center for Biological Diversity will be hurtin' when they can't sue the EPA to get what they want.

Good riddance.





dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
Right, sure, the invisible hand will protect us.
Binks

climber
Uranus
Jul 22, 2016 - 03:40pm PT
None of the major religions is even mostly true, in fact they are ludicrous. At least Hinduism and Buddhism are psychologically true and make few literal claims. There is no God waiting to resurrect you in heaven, with virgins or not (depending on your branch of this tomfoolery). If there is a designer, he'd want you to see thru those primitive religious memes as a sort of a baby step, to see, if maybe we qualify to even step off the planet into the greater universe someday.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jul 22, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

And, . . . Americans are not Poles.
WBraun

climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 05:30pm PT
So somebody who already originally bought the Rolling Stones CD album is not allowed to play the music in public?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:01pm PT
John Anderson 1980 ring a bell? Didn't work then, unlikely to work now. Anderson drew from the middle, and got blown out.

No I was 12. But things are more polarized now and both parties seem to be moving towards the extremes. I would like to see a centrist party draw votes from both sides and it would likely draw more votes from the party further to the extreme.

It would take a few election cycles to have much effect and more to have a candidate with any shot at winning. But everyone complains about the only two parties but no one wants to do anything different.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:04pm PT
For music my understanding is they have to pay for the clearance to use it. Some reps got sued earlier this cycle for not doing it.

Trump did pay so it's legal. But the artists have the right to complain and say THEY don't approve.

It's funny it's always the repugnant republicans that artists disapprove of. They could go with republican artists but there's only so much nugent kid rock and country even they can take.
WBraun

climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:10pm PT
But the artists have the right to complain and say THEY don't approve.


Why they (Rolling Stones) don't approve?

Since Trump is the devil and the Stones have sympathy for the devil it don't make any sense.

Stones are loons ..... :-)
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:12pm PT
things are more polarized now and both parties seem to be moving towards the extremes.

No. Both parties have moved to the right. It's just that one party has moved so far right that it seems like they are at extremes. The center has shifted. Nixon actually went before Congress in 1974 and wanted comprehensive health care.

Neither party really supports unions anymore, for example, and medicare and Medicaid were enacted with bipartisan support.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:14pm PT
Donald Trump Is a Unique Threat to American Democracy


Stunning. The Washington post waited until the day after the Republican convention to publish a full page editorial explaining why trump is uniquely and grossly unsuited to be president, and why they cannot endorse him. I've never seen anything like this: papers always wait until the fall to pick candidates. It's worth reading in its entirety.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/donald-trump-is-a-unique-threat-to-american-democracy/2016/07/22/a6d823cc-4f4f-11e6-aa14-e0c1087f7583_story.html
WBraun

climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:19pm PT
The Washington Post absolutely and vehemently hate Donald Trump period.

That news media is so biased it's unreal.

Their whole agenda is to fuk Trump over in every which way they can.

The Washington Post is one Fuked up untrustworthy news media outlet ......
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:22pm PT
The Washington post didn't endorse a duck either. Maybe that's why your so pissed.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
Werner, where are they biased against trump?

I don't mean their columnists: most columnists from most newspapers detest trump, even conservative columnists. But where is their reporting biased?


They are 100% spot on here.
WBraun

climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:32pm PT
The Washington Post is as bad as Trump.

Full of sh!t ......
Norton

Social climber
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:40pm PT

Actually Medicare was passed into law quite largely by Democrat votes


In the Senate

Dems 57 for

Repubs 13 for

in the House

Dems 237 for

Repubs 70 for


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 22, 2016 - 06:53pm PT
LOL....
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Jul 22, 2016 - 11:23pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 23, 2016 - 05:55am PT
So, was it the butler or not?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2016 - 06:14am PT
Many of you might find this interesting: what was it like being a never trump Kasich delegate at the convention?

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/23/12258018/republican-convention-delegate-nevertrump

Answer: kind of chilling. Either you're for trump or you're against America.

Yes, really.
trailridge127

Trad climber
Loveland, CO
Jul 23, 2016 - 07:07am PT
The most interesting part of that article, for me: was not that he was ridiculed and threatened for not drinking the Trump cool aide. What did he expect to happen, the place was filled with emotionally fueled fanatics that only know Obama is the devil and Trump is second in command to Jesus. There was not a lot of thinking going on. The most fascinating part of the article is the irony of you posting it on this thread.

The summary of the article: is that it is actually American to stand up for what you believe in. Voting your conscience and peacefully encouraging others to stop and think is being a responsible American. Go against the flow despite the flood of "groupthink" around you.

The last sentenace of the OP, encourages people, despite what they believe in, to get on the Hillary train. Drink the Hillary cool aide.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2016 - 07:58am PT
I've read many, many conservatives compare Trump to fascists and authoritarians.

Off the top of my head:

David Brooks
Meg Whitman
Kathleen Parker
Ross Douthat
George Will
Michael gerson
Tons of writers with the National Review and the Weekly Standard
Robert Kagan
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 23, 2016 - 08:58am PT
Jon Stewart speaks out about Conservatives
“You feel that you’re this country’s rightful owners. There’s only one problem with that: This country isn’t yours. You don’t own it. It never was. There is no ‘real America.’

You don’t own it. You don’t own patriotism, you don’t own Christianity, you sure as hell don’t own respect for the bravery and sacrifice of military, police and firefighters. Trust me.

I saw a lot of people on the convention floor in Cleveland with their ‘Blue Lives Matter’ rhetoric who either remained silent or actively fought against the 9/11 First Responders Bill reauthorization. I see you, and I see your...”
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 23, 2016 - 09:19am PT
...who either remained silent or actively fought against the 9/11 First Responders' Bill re-authorization. I see you, and I see your...”

oversimplified.

In Congress, when a bill is proposed by side A it is standard practice for side B to attach riders which are not related to the bill. When one side has a spending item etc. which will not pass a straightforward vote they'll try to get it through as a rider. When one side really gets to stick to the other is when they attach a rider or riders which are particularly onerous (to the other side) to a bill which will has universal support by a public (which is not hip to what is actually going on).

This happens again and again on both sides of the aisle. Part of the chess game.

There is/was a movement building in the CA legislature to rule that a bill can only contain items relevant to the subject of the bill. This would do a lot to put a stop to this BS.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jul 23, 2016 - 11:28am PT

Tim Kaine this morning still whining about Trump saying McCain is not a hero?

OMFG! is that all they got?

This morning Kaine stated Vladimir Putin and the Russians will "just come right in and roll right over us" because of Trump's stand on NATO.

I guess he missed Obama's recent speech condemning Trump's fear mongering.

If Hillary even had a shot at the white house she blew it all by teaming up with this dork.



jstan

climber
Jul 23, 2016 - 11:42am PT
Actually Trump could do away with all crime.

He would merely have to repeal all laws.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2016 - 11:44am PT
Trump is a dickhead. That's the point, and there are thousands of examples.

That's always been the point--he's an unhinged, know nothing dickhead.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 23, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
Much as one may not like Hillary, compared to Trump she is the only rational, responsible choice.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 23, 2016 - 06:34pm PT
at this point with so much really negative stuff out about Trump

if you care about the US economy, our world allies, our Constitution

you simply have no defense for voting trump

you cannot even say any longer voting for him is a vote against Hillary

then just don't vote or write yourself in

but you can no longer call yourself a patriotic American if you still vote for Trump

church is finally out and you got nothing
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 23, 2016 - 06:52pm PT
Like most Americans, I'm very tired of the status quo.

Most Americans have no idea how the rest of the world lives, outside of tourist destinations. They don't know how good we have it. America IS great.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 23, 2016 - 06:53pm PT
Tim Kaine this morning still whining about Trump saying McCain is not a hero?

OMFG! is that all they got?

This matters a great deal to the military and to veterans. I would think it would matter a lot to the parent of a Marine, too.

It should matter to all Americans.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 23, 2016 - 07:06pm PT
I will not call anyone names,he just does not stand a chance.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 23, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
The Republican Party has worked hard since Obama was elected in 2008 to block every constructive measure he put forward to help America recover from the Great-Recession, that was caused by their policies.

The Republican Party has worked hard the last four years to convince Americans that Hillary Clinton is a negligent politician at best & more likely an evil criminal. There is no proven evidence of that, and the incidents are trivial, when compared to other presidential blunders.

For the last eight years, the Republican Party has also been trying to convince us that we are in harsh economic times, horribly-threatened by external enemies, and suffering terribly from violent illegal emigrants.

During their whole campaign of hatred, they have also pursued closet racism to keep their racist core-supporters committed to the Republican agenda.

Now the Republicans have a dysfunctional presidential candidate that perfectly reflects all they have tried to make Americans believe for the last 8 years. I’m charmed that a number of establishment Republicans can’t bring themselves to support Trump, even though they deserve him for what they have tried to do to America.

I know that those folks here, who have drank-deeply of the tainted Republican Kool-aid, are not going to change their minds.

I’m just very-grateful, that it appears there are more than enough voting Americans to elect Hillary president.

(Yes! I’m not in love with Hillary & her policies either, but she & her policies are so much better than the alternative.)
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jul 23, 2016 - 07:40pm PT
I thought this was going to be a thread about using birth control, or making sure your campfire was out and cold before striking camp.

So, you can imagine my disappointment.

WBraun

climber
Jul 23, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
American stoopid politics.

This criminal is not as bad as the other criminal.

Just vote for the lesser criminal.

Stoopidest logic of stupid Americans.

Throw out all the criminals.

You can't do it because you're all just criminals killing everything alive on the planet and making it sterile.

And then you get criminals and that's your karmic reaction ......
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 23, 2016 - 08:51pm PT
Werner ,may I send you some weed......lol
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 23, 2016 - 09:38pm PT
When it comes to McCain it doesn't matter to this American.

One can certainly find fault with McCain, however, the insult was much broader than McCain, it pointedly was directed towards ANY service person who was a POW.

I cannot agree with his politics, but I applaud McCain as a real American hero----not for what he said, but for what he endured (part of which was voluntary), so as to not leave his comrades behind.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 23, 2016 - 09:41pm PT
One can certainly find fault with McCain, however, the insult was much broader than McCain, it pointedly was directed towards ANY service person who was a POW.

Of course.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jul 23, 2016 - 09:52pm PT
but you can no longer call yourself a patriotic American if you still vote for Trump

According to some guy on a rock climbing website...
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jul 23, 2016 - 10:04pm PT
Donald Trump is a piece of SH!T!!!...

He can fuk off and should stand down...

It's time EVERYONE understands that...

Pretty harsh words.

What did he do to you to bring out such rage?
Did it hurt physically or just your feelings?

He's going to win in November.

Here are some options for you.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/01/the-top-5-countries-to-move-to-that-are-not-canada-if-you-hate-the-election-results-commentary.html

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 23, 2016 - 10:05pm PT
"According to some guy on a rock climbing website..."

Who is this guy, I'd climb with him!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 23, 2016 - 11:49pm PT
Dean, I can't imagine you, as a man of good faith and principle, being able to stand behind a man like Trump. Hillary or no Hillary.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jul 24, 2016 - 06:29am PT
What do you want?

Do you want someone who will promote your interests? Then you want a representative who will serve you and your community’s interests. You want some form of nationalism. Patriotism gets referred to often here. It’s argued that every community gets to choose who it will include within its activities, and every member gets to choose whether it will join up in a community.

If you want someone who will promote what they think is just and right beyond a single community, then you want what’s been called a statesman. You want someone who will serve certain values and standards and objectives that go beyond a single community. You do not want a representative. You want a person who is not influenced simply by the what the populace wants, but a person who “will do the right thing” (whatever that means). Rights and universal ethics get referenced often here. You might want someone who is multicultural and multinational.

The two approaches to what a politician should be appear to be are at-odds with one another. Each has reasonable complaints about the other; both appear to be valid systems. Trump vs. Obama (& Clinton) would seem to be an example of these different approaches (and people’s views here in this thread).

Is either approach is right or wrong?

As a combat veteran (and a brother of a full bird colonel sister in the service), I see nothing inherently sacrosanct about service. It’s a job. It provides a service like any other job or profession. I thought it was a great job due to the camaraderie among brothers and sisters in-arms. I got wounded a couple of times, but that didn’t make me special. What made those experiences special were the reflections that arose over the years about nearly losing my life. I would imagine the same thing can be said for a POW’s experience.

Politicians should be first to fight the wars they wage.

People Sleep Peacefully in Their Beds at Night Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready to Do Violence on Their Behalf. (Orwell)
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:40am PT
moosedrool wrote: "I lived half of my life under a totalitarian regime. I know their tactics. I can see through their rhetoric and lies"

No, you don't.
Why were not you able to recognise similarity between the US liberals rhetorics and communist ideology?
Both (according to their words) care about common people and want to make their lives better.

However we know that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Historically (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot) such intentions led to totalitarism and human misery.
Why should you expect a different outcome in the US?
Why do you believe that Hillary should be a better ruller than Stalin etc.?

Have you red "Nineteen Eighty-Four"?
Haven't you noticed any warning sign in the US reminding you of this book?

What about liberal thought police?
People in the US are already afraid sharing their thoughts when these thoughts are not alligned with dominant liberal ideology.

That was exactly a case in the USSR.
People were afraid to openly speak there.

However an attempt by Soviet social engineers to build a better sociaty failed and it did not end very well.

I understand why people who were born here (as boling frogs) fail to recognise these signs and see encroachment of totalitarism wraped in liberal rhetorics.

However, I expected that moosedrool should be able to see this.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:50am PT
Yuri
You got it 100% backwards

Communist Russia was the exact opposite of liberalism

It was hard right wing Totalitarism.
Just like China.


They both threw liberals in jail, just like the Nazis.

1984 warned of the dangers of right wing control, not liberals.
Thought Police?? that's Trump and Bush
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 24, 2016 - 09:26am PT
Craig, communism and socialism (by Lenin’s definition) are ideologies born of the left. Totalitarianism has no ideology. As a means to an end it could be seen as ideological, but such means are always in direct conflict with their stated goal. It is a mistake to equate totalitarianism itself with an ideology. It is either justified as a necessary evil or a last ditch effort to hold power. Stalin was a ruthless totalitarian, believing of course that circumstances demanded such. But his underlying ideology was from the left.

You mentioned China. The Chinese attempt at communism failed from the outset. The imposition of a totalitarian state as a means to this end failed even after the killing of many millions in the effort. The ideology simply never took hold. An all powerful central authority is what held it together at all. To conclude that this totalitarian state, even in its weakened form today, began out of right wing thinking is incorrect.

Do you see these quotes from Stalin as evidence that his values came from the right?

“In speaking of the capitalists who strive only for profit, only to get rich, I do not want to say that these are the most worthless people capable of doing nothing else. Many of them undoubtedly possess great organizing talent, which I would not dream of denying. We Soviet people learn a lot from the capitalists. But if you mean people who are prepared to reconstruct the world, of course you will not be able to find them in the ranks of those who faithfully serve the cause of profit. ..The capitalist is riveted in profit and nothing can tear him away from it."

"Marxists have more than once pointed out that the capitalist world economic system contains in itself the seeds of a general crisis and of warlike clashes."

"There is not, nor should there be, an irreconcilable contrast between the individual and the collective, between the interests of an individual person and the interests of the collective."
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Jul 24, 2016 - 10:02am PT
Moose's original post was right on. I haven't been so scared for the future since the Cuban Missile crisis. I don't love Hillary, but will vote to keep that madman out of office.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 24, 2016 - 10:50am PT
I just read this interview. I recommend it. Set aside a few minutes, you'll be glad you did...

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-us-politics-poor-whites/

edit: A comment posted at the end of the interview:

Mr Dreher, I am writing to thank you for the impressive and thoughtful interview of JD Vance on his book. I am not a conservative. I am a black, gay, immigrant who has been blessed by the dynamic and productive American society we live in. So I am not the average reader of the American Conservative. I came to your article through a friend. So I just wanted to share how refreshing I found to have two white men being able to speak about class, their family experience and acknowledging an experience that is often not visible in our society. The poor rural south that you described and the communities that Mr.. Vance write about are familiar to me. Born in Haiti, growing up in Congo, Africa. I recognize that poverty, I recognize the marginalization and I SO APPRECIATED the conversation about individual agency! That is ultimately where the American dream (if it exists) lives. That deep belief that I as an individual am not a victim and can engage with the world around me! That has been my American lesson. That is the source of the dynamism of this society! Thank you!
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Jul 24, 2016 - 10:58am PT
Fossil, are not you afraid that Hillary with her activists foreign policy and inclination for regimes change can get us into much worse situation than JFK's missile crisis?

I am afraid that Hillary can succeed where both JFK and Obama failed and can get us into a nuclear war.

When comparing Hillary to Trump, Trump looks like an old peacenik to me.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 24, 2016 - 11:06am PT
It was Khrushchev's missile crisis. It was also his downfall, and this led to a much more dangerous time, when Andropov's KGB held the levers of power in the Soviet Union. JFK's moves at the time astonished the Soviets, but there were unintended consequences.

edit: Hillary has shown herself to be an interventionist, at least when she's second in command.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jul 24, 2016 - 11:17am PT
With the fall of communism throughout the the Soviet block the intelligence services were disbanded and sent forth to nurture and grow the seeds already planted worldwide. Some landed on our shores to paint our houses, wash our dirty dishes, and eventually design drugs for the pharmaceuticals that allowed for the frogs to be slow boiled while maintaining the bliss of ignorance. OR NOT.

HAHA-HEHE
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 24, 2016 - 11:25am PT
Ksolem...skimmed that interview, thanks...Trump is against the liberal elites but not the conservative elites..? What's the difference...? Is one form of snobbery and prejudice less evil than the other..? Trump is playing the class warfare card from his golden throne to whip up some votes from the poverty stricken hillbillies...I can't see Trump doing anything to ease poverty in America unless he boots the 12 million illegals out to create more job opportunities for the hillbilly's who surely aren't going to work for the slave wages the hispanics are willing to work for...What a mess..
John M

climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 11:26am PT
Ksolem... thanks for the recommendation on the article. I probably never would have seen it. Every one needs to read it. A most excellent article. I will see about buying his book.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-us-politics-poor-whites/


On the other hand, as a conservative, I grow weary of fellow middle-class conservatives acting as if it were possible simply to bootstrap your way out of poverty. My dad was able to raise my sister and me in the 1970s on a civil servant’s salary, supplemented by my mom’s small salary as a school bus driver. I doubt this would be possible today. You’re a conservative who has known poverty and powerlessness as well as wealth and privilege. What do you have to say to your fellow conservatives?

I think you hit the nail right on the head: we need to judge less and understand more. It’s so easy for conservatives to use “culture” as an ending point in a discussion–an excuse to rationalize their worldview and then move on–rather than a starting point. I try to do precisely the opposite in Hillbilly Elegy. This book should start conversations, and it is successful, it will.



Liberals have to get more comfortable with dealing with the poor as they actually are. I admire their refusal to look down on the least among us, but at some level, that can become an excuse to never really look at the problem at all.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 24, 2016 - 11:35am PT
In a way politics is like military strategy. A vacuum, unoccupied territory, is an opportunity which can be exploited to advantage.

Or a trap.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jul 24, 2016 - 11:36am PT
I think you hit the nail right on the head: we need to judge less and understand more.

Bingo.
John M

climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 11:37am PT
RJ... you should have done more then skim the article. He talks about the problems that both groups of people have. For conservatives he says its not just a case of "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps". There are policies that can help people overcome their background and we should be looking for and implementing them.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 24, 2016 - 11:42am PT
John M... Don't tell me what to do...! :) Gotta get some chores done and doing the typical tug of war between the chores and reading supertopo... I'll re-read again..
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Jul 24, 2016 - 11:47am PT
It was Khrushchev's missile crisis.
Ksolem, I am not sure about your knowledge of history.

I just want to remind you that this missile crisis started with deployment of short range missiles near the borders of Soviet Union.
Khrushchev responded with deployment of missiles in Cuba.
JFK had an option to negotiate with Soviets and to offer to remove US missiles stationed near the borders of Soviet Unions in exchange for removal of missiles stationed in Cuba.
Instead he started pushing Khrushchev for unilateral removal of Soviet missiles.
The whole point of staging a Cuban Missile Crisis by JFK was to remove soviet missiles deployed near US borders while keeping US missiles deployed near USSR borders.

Khrushchev did not blink. JFK was forced to negotiate and agreed to remove US missles. However first JFK put the world on a brink of a nuclear war.

Please disregard this history lesson if you already know the whole story of Cuban Missile Crisis.

John M

climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 11:49am PT
Its worth reading RJ.. He really does talk about what both sides of the aisle need to see, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. Its an interview though, so it does break it down into parts.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 11:59am PT
gee, and all this time I figured he was famous for facing down Russia during the Cuban Missile Crisis, how silly of me
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 24, 2016 - 12:14pm PT
Kennedy was gonna Make America Great Again, he had vision.

Today he would be moderate Republican, even conservative. A little cliche, but to all the millennials asking where their American Dream is?

I paraphrase Kennedy:

"Ask not what this country can do for you, but what YOU LOSERS are gonna do for this country, other than whine!"
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jul 24, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
it's interesting watching the left become the new right...



and i don't mean [just - ha!] in terms of policy.

i mean in terms of the use of fear-driven, fundamentalist-style coercion: "vote for hillary or the whole world will end... literally!", "trump is the rise of a new hitler, pol pot, khazynski... literally!", and etc...

basically fear based rhetoric that, if it were true, makes it so that there can only be one action to take.

and so just like the right and centrist leaning fear generators that used the same type of rhetoric to push the iraqi war [including on this very board] in the early aughts, you lefties are going down the same road.



because here's a simple test to explain why your fear based rhetoric is mistaken and/or a lie: unless you have joined in with escopeta and are buying up ak's, stockpiling munitions and training in the hills of los angeles then you folks claiming that trump will or could be the start of a "regime" are lying to yourselves.

while it's stating the obvious, that's because there is a whole system of checks and balances and if you think that trump is going to be able to run amok over all of them, then there are bigger fish to fry than just trump.

seriously, if you lefties think that trump is, in one or even two cycles, going to be able to transition the u.s. into some form of a hard or soft dictatorship, then it doesn't matter who gets in because your system has already failed and it's time to start preparing for actual revolution.

but, none of you advocate that. you just want to coerce people into an x on a ballot.

and so you don't actually believe what you say you do.



ecdh already nailed everything else a couple hundred posts ago.



finally one last rant: nobody on this board seems to give a shIt that the dnc, that is supposed to be a neutral organization, has been proven, by the most recent wikileaks email dump, to be in bed with both hillary [proving the "bernie-bros" and anybody with open eyes correct] and many media services as well [my personal favorite so far was the "agreement" a politico reporter had with the dnc to have them review his story before even his editors had and which along with everything else that was shown proves at least to some degreee the ole smoking duck and fox network correct regarding their left wing media bias and cia news network claims]

because who cares about the faux or at least manipulated "democratic" processes and media collusion in your own camp? who cares that hillary is for all objective historical record purposes [other than her current rhetoric] what used to be a centrist republican [before the republicans decided to move to a form of neo-fascism]?



one can't worry about any of that when there is a boogeyman like trump in the room...



in the word of bernie sanders:

BOO!
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
Nuclear missiles were deployed to Turkey before Kennedy became President.


The 1 megaton warheads were always in American custody; however, the authority to launch the missile was reserved for both American and Turkish air crews.


During the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Kennedy administration secretly agreed to remove the Jupiter missiles from Turkey in exchange for the withdrawal of all Russian nuclear weapons from Cuba.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 24, 2016 - 01:46pm PT
In a very responsible move by another billionaire businessman:

Michael R. Bloomberg, who bypassed his own run for the presidency this election cycle, will endorse Hillary Clinton in a prime-time address at the Democratic convention and make the case for Mrs. Clinton as the best choice for moderate voters in 2016, an adviser to Mr. Bloomberg said.

The news is an unexpected move from Mr. Bloomberg, who has not been a member of the Democratic Party since 2000; was elected the mayor of New York City as a Republican; and later became an independent.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/dismayed-by-trump-bloomberg-will-endorse-clinton/ar-BBuKThI?li=BBnb7Kz
John M

climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 01:54pm PT
Nahoo

seriously, if you lefties think that trump is, in one or even two cycles, going to be able to transition the u.s. into some form of a hard or soft dictatorship, then it doesn't matter who gets in because your system has already failed and it's time to start preparing for actual revolution.

not my main concern with Trump.

My main concern with him is him starting WW3, or at the very least pissing off enough people around the world that we find ourselves in serious trouble with things like financial war. He acts like a bully and he seems to think that we can do whatever we want to with no consequences. World politics goes well beyond school yard bully economic principles. He could wreck us financially and or start a major war.

China and Russia are not our friends, but at this point they also aren't aggressively our enemies. We have detente to some extent. That could easily go south because we are talking about some extreme personalities that don't respond well to bullies. Could you imagine him saying that we aren't going to pay back our debt? And what atmosphere that might create. Things could go south very quickly as the world is not run by level headed people.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 24, 2016 - 02:14pm PT

while it's stating the obvious, that's because there is a whole system of checks and balances and if you think that trump is going to be able to run amok over all of them, then there are bigger fish to fry than just trump.

seriously, if you lefties think that trump is, in one or even two cycles, going to be able to transition the u.s. into some form of a hard or soft dictatorship, then it doesn't matter who gets in because your system has already failed and it's time to start preparing for actual revolution.

There are a lot of checks and balances at the domestic level. At the foreign level, not so much. Where were the checks and balances that kept us out of Vietnam? Alternately, you get a Commander in Chief that beats the war drum loud enough and congress rolls over and 2 Trillion dollars (and countless dead and wrecked lives) later we are still mired in Iraq.

You get a Foreign secretary that wonders out loud whether the US really cares about Korea and you end up with the Korean war.

You get a POTUS who speculates that maybe the Baltics just aren't worth defending and maybe Putin sees it as an opportunity to pull another Ukraine.

The POTUS could pull all the troops out of Iraq/Syria or the POTUS could deploy tens of thousands and there are no "checks and balances" that is going to stop that.

President Trump could misplay his hand and get into a shooting war in the China sea.

Hillary is more Neocon than Obama but her approach will generally be more of the same.

Trump? Who knows but this attitude that it can't be any worse is ludicrous.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 24, 2016 - 02:20pm PT
President Trump could misplay his hand and get into a shooting war in the China sea.

Right now I'm starting to wonder why shots haven't been fired already!

Of course, it's because we have a push-over Prez. Never saw a real confrontation he couldn't simply dismiss by 'issuing' a red line.

Get it? He does nothing! He makes fuking inconsequential acclaims.

What a leader. It no wonder other leaders think he's a push-over.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jul 24, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
John M and August West:

to some degree, i'd agree that those are fair points. and i don't have an issue if you want to make an argument like that. just not a fan of fundamentalist histrionics that can't see the other side of the coin.

regardless you'd have to convince me that hillary is less of a threat to world stability, in the long run, anyway. one listen to her speech to aipac, her stances on libya and syria and past statements regarding iran, make me believe that the long term repercussions of the obama policies of terroristic action in the middle east [the let's continue to kill civilians more often than we kill the actual military targets with our drone strikes and the targeting of funerals and first responders in so-called double tap strikes] are the least of our future worries if she gets into power.

but again, even with her, she hopefully would have a house and senate to get through and a voting public to manipulate.

same as trump.



you'd also have to convince me that trump really gives a shIt about anything. nytimes claims that kasich was offered purview of all national and international policy if he would run with trump as his vice president. as there are no names attached to the nytimes story and the trump organization is full of so much shIt, that even if it was offered, who knows what the reality would be, still i'm not convinced that trump really gives a shIt about anything other than seeing his name lit up in gold above the white house and more importantly that even if he tries to do everything he has said so far, that he could actually do anything significant...

i admit i could be wrong. it would be a gamble for sure... but here's why i'd take it:

it's because a successful presidential bid by hillary takes us globally and you domestically further down the road that has led the u.s. to a point where a policy-free, narcissistic, blowhard, doUchebag actually has a chance.

unless, someone can convince me that the whole thing, and not just parts, is already a sham, then i'd gamble that the u.s. can survive a trump presidency, and in the process deflate a bunch of the hot gas that has accumulated in mistaken places and then hopefully allow enough time to pass, that a bunch of the older generation will die off, so that the next generation can move on to navigating actual real reform...



clinton and kaine are both proud and avowed continuations and likely expanders of the present global/domestic economic and militaristic status quos that have brought us to a place where trump is a real possibility.

to continue down the same road and expect a different result would i suspect, in the long run, be mistaken.



but at the end of the day, who knows...

except for one thing: unless some of you chaps have found trump's version of mein kampf that you'd like to share, this bull-shIt about trump being hitler or whatever other dictator you'd like to choose, is repulsive.

in fact i'm sure hitler is rolling over in his grave as we speak, annoyed that his hard earned and richly deserved phd in evil is being compared with a mere garden variety blowhard capitalistic petty criminal.
John M

climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 03:40pm PT
regardless you'd have to convince me that hillary is less of a threat to world stability, in the long run,

Here is my thinking. I do not like Hillary. I agree that she is part of the establishment that has taken us for a ride. A fairly disgusting ride.

My problem is that while I do not like the status quo which Hillary represents and I am pissed that the Dems sabotaged anyone else from having a chance against her, I believe that Trump is so much worse then the status quo. Yes the status quo brought us to this point of Trump possibly being president, but I do not believe that the solution is Trump.

I rate the two this way-

Hillary most likely won't get us into a third WW.

Trump has a much great chance of doing that. He is a careless and thoughtless egomaniac.

While Hillary has a fairly large ego, Trump is egomaniacal.

A third world war would be disastrous.

I also offer this. My father has been a life long republican from Texas. He is a conservative Christian who is fiscally conservative, yet somewhat socially liberal. When Trump started taking the lead, and Cruz was number 2, my father told the GOP that he would no longer financially support them for the mess that they had helped create. I was in the room when he told them. He says Trump or Cruz would be terrible and that neither should have ever gotten any power. I believe that he would have voted for Kasich.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 24, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
Locker +1


I swear, Republicans aren't happy unless they are fighting somebody, somewhere.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 03:59pm PT

here you go, Locker


No US President has succeeded in the targeted killing of more terrorists than Obama

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/apr/18/who-killed-more-terrorists-obama-or-bush/



nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jul 24, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
thanks John M... interesting.

i differ in that i suspect either one is equally as unlikely to get us all in a third world war... in part due to the checks and balances that are in place. but fair enough on the other perspective.

if i thought clinton was, relative to the spectrum as a whole, anything other than a rebranded romney i could see voting for her solely because of the upcoming supreme court placements.

but in my book the danger of voting in at least four more years of a status quo that has resulted in a national scene that has moved from supporting the mildly crazy but mostly inconsequential palin to the outright vacuous and one vote away from president, mr. trump, outweighs the cost of the supreme court nominations.

that's why at least at this point i'd be voting for little meteor 2016 [aka trump/pence].

but it's a conundrum for sure.
John M

climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
I do not believe that checks and balances could stop a third WW. If Trump pisses off the Chinese by saying that he will default on the debt, and he has already said this, and then if the Chinese do something even more stupid in the Sea of China, such as firing on a US war ship, which is not far fetched, and they manage to damage it seriously, or sink it, then the American public might rise up like it did after 9/11, and we could have a third WW.

Its not a matter of congress saying no. Its a matter of what China or Russia would do if pushed too far. And between Hillary or Trump, I believe that Trump would push the farthest and the craziest.

Trump does not have the emotional stability to play the chess match that world politics is. He is a bully. Bullies start fights. That is what he is best at.

This is my opinion. Everyone should decide for themselves who is best for this country.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 24, 2016 - 04:34pm PT
"but it's a conundrum for sure."




Light the effen fuse ,make merica burn again!



HS.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 24, 2016 - 04:35pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 04:56pm PT

outweighs the cost of the supreme court nominations.

this is who We The People should be vot'in for! they're the one's that deal with our lives. who give's a fuc whose president, he/she's more concerned with the rest of the world anyway.....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 24, 2016 - 05:01pm PT

"Get it? He does nothing!"...

Try telling that to Osama Bin Laden...

Locker, he was the sitting prez as Navy SEAL's destroyed Obama, so Obama gets the praise?

Obama is rad beacuse he got Osama? That's his achievement?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 24, 2016 - 05:07pm PT
Yes, either one of you blue dudes,that is his achievement,5% UE as well.

You are right.



[never mind us down here on the bottom of the ladder]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 24, 2016 - 05:11pm PT
finally one last rant: nobody on this board seems to give a shIt that the dnc, that is supposed to be a neutral organization, has been proven, by the most recent wikileaks email dump, to be in bed with both hillary [proving the "bernie-bros" and anybody with open eyes correct] and many media services as well [my personal favorite so far was the "agreement" a politico reporter had with the dnc to have them review his story before even his editors had and which along with everything else that was shown proves at least to some degreee the ole smoking duck and fox network correct regarding their left wing media bias and cia news network claims]

And you'd have to convince me that you are not s simple liar.

The wikileaks demonstrates that the DNC had a bias, but it does not show "it was in bad" with Hillary.

As for your childish understanding of the media, it is standard journalistic practice to forward a copy of article to the subject, or to experts, for comment.

Working for TIME, I did exactly that with a water article I wrote, asking LADWP folks for their thoughts. They had a couple of very small suggested changes, which were correct and made.

This was done with the Watergate article, submitted to Nixon for comment before publishing.

This is the thing with you guys, you won't take something for what it is, you have to distort it in an effort to magnify it.
WBraun

climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 05:12pm PT
They killed all seal team 6 because they were afraid they would spill the beans on the bullsh!t Bin Laden ops .......

"How are the American people ever going to know what the truth is?

How are they going to know what the truth is about what we are doing and have done over the years?"

"We operate in secrecy, we deal in deception and disinformation, and then we burn our files."
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 24, 2016 - 05:15pm PT
this is who We The People should be vot'in for! they're the one's that deal with our lives. who give's a fuc whose president, he/she's more concerned with the rest of the world anyway.....


There it is, folks! In the quest for power, that side is willing to discard the Constitution at the first opportunity.

You don't have to pretend that the Founders knew what they were doing.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 24, 2016 - 05:18pm PT

"Get it? He does nothing!"...

Try telling that to Osama Bin Laden...
+++++++++++++++++++++

Locker, he was the sitting prez as Navy SEAL's destroyed Obama, so Obama gets the praise?

Obama is rad beacuse he got Osama? That's his achievement?

No, you advocated that he DOES NOTHING. That means NOT ONE THING.
Locker refuted your statement.
You lose this argument.

Glad you think that Carter had no responsibility for the FAILED RAID to rescue hostages, just because he was the sitting President, and the military failed.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 24, 2016 - 05:23pm PT
I know this: if Trump had been President during the Cuban missile crisis, we'd have fought WWIII right then. He would not have backed down.

It was resolved through diplomacy, of which Clinton is a demonstrated experienced expert, and Trump has no clue.

We derive much through diplomacy, and the willingness to discard it for Muscular talk about the military INSTEAD, is what is driving business to abandon the republicans.

Not only does it demonstrate that they'd elect a madman, but it calls into question the very rationality of those who allowed this decision to be made.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
They killed all seal team 6 because they were afraid they would spill the beans on the bullsh!t Bin Laden ops .......

that's interesting. i know of one of team 6 that was killed in an Elon Musk's Tesla's AI controlled cars! that's been on the hush for months.there's MORE?


i bet a cheeseburger EM works for the syndicate too!
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 24, 2016 - 05:49pm PT

Craig, communism and socialism (by Lenin’s definition) are ideologies born of the left. Totalitarianism has no ideology.

Correct. One of my pet peeves are people who confuse an ideology
with a dictatorship.
Read Das Kapital, and get the true meaning of Marxism/Communism.
The Soviet Union would still be around today if not for corruption. In fact, the demise of the Soviet Union was more about corruption, and less about "tear down this wall".
Furthermore, The Chinese government is more totalitarian than communist. The fly in the ointment in that case is something called capitalism.
WBraun

climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 06:03pm PT
The US govt. should fight a totalitarian war against illusion.

Instead the US govt creates wars that support and create more and more illusion .....
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 24, 2016 - 06:19pm PT
I gotta send you some weed.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 06:28pm PT

The US govt. should fight a totalitarian war against illusion.

naw, the us of a should only be keeping tabs , on what We The People are doing.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 24, 2016 - 06:52pm PT
The Soviet Union would still be around today if not for corruption.

No truer words have been spoken on SuperTopo.
Well, it would have at least lasted a bit longer.
stunewberry

Trad climber
Spokane, WA
Jul 24, 2016 - 06:54pm PT
The Washington Post has an editorial that lays out the case against choosing Trump perfectly.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/donald-trump-is-a-unique-threat-to-american-democracy/2016/07/22/a6d823cc-4f4f-11e6-aa14-e0c1087f7583_story.html

Now all that is necessary is for ALL registered voters of intelligence and integrity to vote.

Posted to the politopicus thread as well.

edit: Go read it Bluey, and then decide.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 06:58pm PT
^^^oh yes, yes, please, please. jus tell me who to vote for!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 24, 2016 - 06:59pm PT
If a Totalitarian Dictator takes over a Communist Government,

and this despot is your regular right wing Authoritarian Leader, like Stalin and Mao.
It happened all over the world at the time, right wing leaders taking power because of the economic turmoil

you can call it leftist all you want,
They for sure disdained capitalism.

But It's still Right Wing Control of the Power
And they hated liberals

They all targeted liberals, since they were the opposition to the right wing tyranny.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 06:59pm PT
I agree, Stunewberry. Read it this morning.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/donald-trump-is-a-unique-threat-to-american-democracy/2016/07/22/a6d823cc-4f4f-11e6-aa14-e0c1087f7583_story.html

Nah000, you should give it a read if you haven't already.
You're considerate and thoughtful, per your posts, I'd be surprised if you didn't think it makes the case net-overall.

I too think the Nazi pics posted up by both sides (and other pics as well) are insanely ridiculous if not shameful. But as it was explained to me years ago here this is only a climbing site forum and supposedly "it's all just in fun that's all".

I am in agreement with John M and August West on many points (previous page or pages) esp re inexperience, temperament, articulation ability, poverty of ideas, and bullying crudeness. Also it's so easy to forget how media magnifies the bad and ugly. By a majority of measures we're doing so much better now than decades past. See the data sets of Steven Pinker (Angels of our Better Nature) and others. Kudos to 300 million plus apes/simians who have found the ways and means to live together in culture/civilization by and large peacefully and adventurously. I think this can be just as amazing to think about - when you consider the whole of the numbers and the statistics - as landing Sapiens on the moon. Amazing. But you have to actually think about it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:03pm PT
^^^ where do you think evolution gained it's start? from "conservatism" or "chaos"?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:04pm PT
There is NOTHING that would allow me to vote for Hitlary. Nothing.

Yes, I know you think Trump fascist. That's how bad Hitlery is....I'd still vote for Trump.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:05pm PT
Hi Blue

good question, curious as to what answer you would give to your question?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:08pm PT

he's the greatest business man! why shouldn't he be the greatest politician?

and to you all Emotional-less. why not The Greatest American?
stunewberry

Trad climber
Spokane, WA
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:13pm PT
Re; Bluey's question: In geology, Lyell thought the present is the ky to the past; that very small changes to the landscape occurred gradually, over time, through processes no different in scale than happens most of the time. However, most geologic change occurs in major events, think earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, and the response following those upheavals. So, my bet is evolution got its start through a unique confluence of events that got things going. Let the horse out of the barn, and evolution just happens in response to the events that influence life.

Let's get back to Moosedrool's original thesis about being responsible.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:16pm PT

bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA

Jul 24, 2016 - 12:14pm PT
Kennedy was gonna Make America Great Again, he had vision.

Today he would be moderate Republican, even conservative. A little cliche, but to all the millennials asking where their American Dream is?

I paraphrase Kennedy:

"Ask not what this country can do for you, but what YOU LOSERS are gonna do for this country, other than whine!"

Well this is some of the biggest BS Ever
Congrats bluring

Maybe a review of JFK himself defining what it means to be a LIBERAL will help
[Click to View YouTube Video]

The Liberals are asking you to do something, like have the rich pay higher taxes for your Country! Mutual sacrifice!

Here is one definition of the difference between a conservative and a liberal

A conservative lives as if it's survival of the fittest
A Liberal wants to make sure he's got his brothers back.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:23pm PT

A conservative lives as if it's survival of the fittest
A Liberal lives to make sure he's got his brothers back.

that's a good one DrFry, i like! but what if my family isn't your family? and it's jus business, you know?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:28pm PT
Well if they're not from your family, you should make sure the gubmint throws them to the tigers!

Right?

or, all Americans are my brothers, I want my Government to have THEIR back.

and my Government should make sure that all humans have some kind of system that they can access for support

It's not survival of the fittest, we can do a lot better.
Only liberals take this position, the conservatives try and find ways to cut support of our brothers,

because they aren't they're real brothers, so they hope that they can survive w/o gubmint support, they can fight it out.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:30pm PT

Let the horse out of the barn, and evolution just happens in response to the events that influence life.

"just happens" could you refine that language please?

obliviously evolution is intune to conservatism.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
Tombstone blues via Trump's wall?


The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best could; but when he ventured upon insult, I vowed revenge. You, who so well know the nature of my soul, will not suppose, however, that I gave utterance to a threat. At length I would be avenged; this was a point definitely settled--but the very definitiveness with which it was resolved precluded the idea of risk. I must not only punish, but punish with impunity. A wrong is unredressed when retribution overtakes its redresser. It is equally unredressed when the avenger fails to make himself felt as such to him who has done the wrong.
...
No answer still. I thrust a torch through the remaining aperture and let it fall within. There came forth in return only a jingling of the bells. My heart grew sick; it was the dampness of the catacombs that made it so. I hastened to make an end of my labour. I forced the last stone into its position; I plastered it up. Against the new masonry I re-erected the old rampart of bones. For the half of a century no mortal has disturbed them. In pace requiescat!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
all Americans are my brothers, I want my Government to have THEIR back.

so you wanna give 50% of americans high fives, and the other 50% you wanna gun down!?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:34pm PT
Stop the leg humping BB
it's ugly
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:38pm PT
Moose
Was the Polish Government Liberal in any way?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:43pm PT

Politicians in the USA are WAY MORE corrupt than they were in Poland, for sure.

yeah well, we're way more smarter! Ha. what was your original need again?
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:45pm PT
In pace requiescat!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:48pm PT
i hear ya now zBro ;)
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Jul 24, 2016 - 07:53pm PT
The Washington Post article lays it out almost perfectly. Those who are persuaded by fear of the future and xenophobia, both of which Donald is Trumpeting, will not even read it carefully and will deny what they read. There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer - and a true believer is one who has been encouraged to express his - usually suppressed - darkest instincts. That's what DT is doing.

Read up on Germany in the 30s - there's a lot of similarities. Economic depression, angry public, a scapegoat race or religion, charismatic personality claiming to fix everything.

Hillary is no paragon, but she is known to be able to work with others. DT is an arrogant reactionary. HIs way or the highway. I shudder to think of him and Kim Jong Un - peas in a pod - reacting to each other. Or Putin.

Remember the concentration camps for Japanese-Americans during WW2? With DT in there I suspect it won't be long before Muslims are treated equally. And not just the suspect ones.

As usual, it's a choice of two questionable candidates. But remember Germany in the 30s.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 08:00pm PT
^^^ well we got till november.

There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer - and a true believer is one who has been encouraged to express his - usually suppressed - darkest instincts. That's what DT is doing.

DT is shinning his darkest instincts. true believers reliquinsh it.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 08:07pm PT

Pople in the USA have no clue how easy their life is.

maybe your thought is that we have no experience in this matter? but we have been exceeding clued in!
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 08:15pm PT
Pictured, Sammy Davis Jr. and Nancy Sinatra had it so ez in life. Got their fair share all right.

zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 24, 2016 - 08:26pm PT


[Click to View YouTube Video]
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 24, 2016 - 09:36pm PT

^^^ where do you think evolution gained it's start? from "conservatism" or "chaos"?

You seriously can't try to equate an ideology to a biological event
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 24, 2016 - 09:44pm PT
Zbrown...You sure that's Nancy and Sammy...?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 24, 2016 - 09:54pm PT
Pople in the USA have no clue how easy their life is. But, we tend to envy other people, than to be happy with what we have. In the article cited by Ksolem, they complain that a lot of poor people use illegal drugs. As somebody who knows what "poor" means, I almost started laughing. How those poor people can afford buying drugs in the first place??? You call them poor?

I think this is a critical point. Extreme poverty is rare in this country. When it exists, there is often an associated problem, such as chronic mental illness. Those people cannot "pull themselves up by their own bootstraps"

I think we humanely owe these people food, shelter, and guidance.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 24, 2016 - 09:55pm PT
Props to Hillary...
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 10:01pm PT

You seriously can't try to equate an ideology to a biological event

i don't know?? ask Fruity if there is anything besides biological!!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 10:14pm PT

I think we humanely owe these people food, shelter, and guidance.

interestingly, i have never heard a blue whale, porpoise, lion, or chimp say anything like that
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 24, 2016 - 10:28pm PT
interestingly, i have never heard a blue whale, porpoise, lion, or chimp say anything like that

I also don't think I've heard a Republican say that. Nice dodge, though.

Perhaps, if you disagree, you can point me to that plank in the Repub Platform. I can't find it.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 24, 2016 - 10:34pm PT
Cosmic...Here's a 3 stooges eye poke for you...
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 24, 2016 - 10:36pm PT
i'm not disagreeing with you. i'm also disagreeing with Nature/Evolution, which you also seemed to be doing?
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Jul 24, 2016 - 10:54pm PT
Remember the concentration camps for Japanese-Americans during WW2? With DT in there I suspect it won't be long before Muslims are treated equally. And not just the suspect ones.

As usual, it's a choice of two questionable candidates. But remember Germany in the 30s


so we should expect another Reichsmordwoche?

. In the article cited by Ksolem, they complain that a lot of poor people use illegal drugs. As somebody who knows what "poor" means, I almost started laughing. How those poor people can afford buying drugs in the first place??? You call them poor?

who says they're buying them?
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jul 25, 2016 - 01:37am PT
Ken M: you're right i got a little too emo with regards to the dnc and the wikileaks drop. i shouldn't have said it proves the dnc was in bed with hillary but rather that it proves that some individuals within the core dnc team let their biases influence their actions and combined with the evidence of the dnc drastically reducing the number of debates and placing them at inopportune times to name one example, strongly suggests to me that collusion with hillary's camp was likely [albeit to this point this is still admittedly unproven]. i also went too far with regards to the press, because what you suggest is true. there are aspects that do look fishy, but there is nothing that i have seen with regards to this that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that anything more than garden variety fact checking was necessarily going on. with that said, i'd still be outraged if i was bernie or one of his supporters as there is no way, shape or form that the dnc acted as an unbiased entity as it is mandated to do.



HFCS: ok i read the wapo article. i agree with everything they say. and this sums up their key point from my perspective: "The U.S. democratic system is strong and has proved resilient when it has been tested before. We have faith in it. But to elect Mr. Trump would be to knowingly subject it to threat."

i agree and have no illusion that a trump presidency wouldn't be a likely and by choice test of the u.s's system of checks and balances. and whenever one tests something there is a possibility that it will fail...

that said, i think subjecting the system and the voting public to four or eight more years of empire based economic/political/militaristic policy will only lead to a stress test far greater than trump...



the point: trump is a symptom.

ignoring him and voting in the same problem will inevitably result in a new harder to treat symptom four or eight years down the road...



finally as i've spent a bunch of time ranting, i think it's only fair that i lay out what i believe the actual problem is at the most fundamental level. then i promise i'll shut up for a bit.

when taken as a whole, the u.s. in terms of actual base level election process is, at this point, nothing more than a simulation of democracy.

until the following fundamental issues are addressed, all of the other economic, foreign policy, etc. reform that needs to happen, won't. and so here are the, to start, fundamental nuts and bolts that [imesho] would have to be addressed if the u.s. is interested in once again becoming a beacon of fair and representative human organization:

1. rational and neutral redistricting. the gerrymandering that has happened in the u.s. is a joke. there are lots of options that are mathematically or scientifically based that solve this problem. how in the fUck this kind of obvious and overt manipulation can happen in this day and age is just this side of unbelievable.
2. reform first past the post. there are many systems that are far more democratic and keep power from being so entrenched in two parties that the majority of people by definition must end up hating both equally. reform of first past the post, in also resolving the two party problem, will help to address much of the reason behind the voter apathy that currently occurs.
3. get some proper transparent vote counting machines. there are solutions to this problem other than hanging chads and easily hacked diebold machines. that it is even a question that these might have been hacked [and i'll bet dollars to donuts that in my lifetime there will be proof that some of the elections in the early 2000's were hacked: there is too much smoke at this point for me to bet against there having been at least some fire] is again just this side of unbelievable. regardless of whether they were hacked/hackable or not, that this simple problem continues to exist, when there are known solutions that could easily be solved by a number of tech companies in about a month, should be nothing short of an outrage.
4. put some serious teeth behind stopping the usual garden variety but consistently widespread vote manipulation that always happens: not enough voting booths, people redirected to the wrong voting place, people being robo called that votes have been canceled, arcane voter id and registration laws intended to disenfranchise specific demographics and etc. i've always wondered why the carter center feels the need to traipse around the world observing elections when almost every third world vote suppression shenanigan that happens elsewhere is at least rumoured to have happened during every major election somewhere on u.s. soil.
5. place stronger limits [and get rid of the loopholes] on the money that any entity [corporations, unions, individuals and the press] can spend on candidates. what's the point of one person, one vote, if the information flow is heavily skewed to those with money?
6. press reform. right now foxnews is an unabashed wing of the republican party and while the left leaning press may not be quite so unsubtle it's not far behind. anybody with the bandwidth that the mass media is given by the public, has a responsibility to the public. while the fairness doctrine may not have been perfect, eliminating it altogether is in part to blame for the delusional mess of polarized politics that has been left in its wake.

that's off the top of my head... i'm sure i've missed some things, but it'd be a start.



i get that most of the above isn't on the mainstream table at this point.

but if the u.s. is to survive as a democracy it will have to happen at some point. the above don't begin to solve even half of the problems, but without a fair and solid representational foundation all of the other discussions are just shuffling the deck chairs around and attempting to have the tail wag the dog...

the question, from my perspective, is given the choice between tweedle dee [clinton] or tweedle dumb [trump] what's the better method to bide time until the next generation gets so pissed off with this overtly manipulated system that they make shIt happen?



in all honesty i don't claim to know the answer for sure...

at this point [and i must admit that the unreserved darkness of the rnc convention has certainly made me at least pause] i continue to stand behind the argument i've been making, to one degree or another, for the last six months or so:

little [hopefully] meteor 2016!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 25, 2016 - 04:45am PT
The OP fears that Trump will the lead to country down the path to a Totalitarian regime and then recommends that we vote for.....Hillary Clinton.

Hilarious.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:01am PT
The key to responsibility is to be:


... at least in Maine.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:19am PT
Which is it, nationalism, or authoritarianism, that drives trump supporters? If it's the latter, the trumpsters will get more than they thought.
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:33am PT
Blind allegiance to spunk daddy
John M

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:43am PT
great post Nahoo.. I agree with most of what you wrote. Especially on what needs to be fixed.

I have also been pondering your position on Trump, but am not sure that the country could survive the cure.

When Bush and the repubs drove the country into a depression I felt like for them to wake up to what they do that it might be a good idea to just elect another republican president after Bush and let them stew in their mess. Just walk away and give them the congress and the presidency and let them see what they can do. Its the only way that I can see for people to stop blaming others and take a look at themselves. My problem with that is just like with Trump, the country might not survive the cure.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:51am PT
The blow it up and start all over types are delusional.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 25, 2016 - 12:32pm PT
What a thoughtful and provocative post! This is why I read political threads, looking for stuff like this.

Regarding your potential solutions, I respond point-by-point.


1. rational and neutral redistricting.

I certainly agree, and I'm hoping that the "experiment" that we are carrying out in Ca will spread to other states. The problem is, that it involved giving up power, so the incumbents that have power don't like it. In Ca, we had to force it through the initiative, which most states do not have.

It's hard to get past the thinking that "I'm fine with bias, as long as the bias is towards me", which would be those in power who have the ability to change this.

2. reform first past the post.

I've got to look into this further, but it sounds like it makes elections simpler to administer and understand.

3. get some proper transparent vote counting machines.

Here in LA County, we are about to go through a major change in our system. Currently, we use IBM cards that are marked, not punched....so you get an auditable paper trail. It takes longer to count, but I think truth is more important than speed.

However, we are going to moving to a computer screen system, which produces a paper ballot that is what is actually counted, but which allows you to see what you are voting for, not something inside a machine. I am not comfortable with un-auditable computer voting systems. LA is going to actually build it's own system from the ground up.

4. put some serious teeth behind stopping the usual garden variety but consistently widespread vote manipulation that always happens: not enough voting booths, people redirected to the wrong voting place, people being robo called that votes have been canceled, arcane voter id and registration laws intended to disenfranchise specific demographics and etc.

There is a bill making it's way through the legislature, SB 450, which reforms much of how we vote: You will have "vote centers" open for 10 days, you can vote in any one in the State, you can register and vote at the same time, absentee ballots are sent to all registered voters, etc. Not entirely perfect, but a major overhaul of our system to eliminate much of the deficiencies you mention, above. We should all email our State legislators to support this

5. place stronger limits [and get rid of the loopholes] on the money that any entity [corporations, unions, individuals and the press] can spend on candidates.

I so agree, but it appears to require an action by the US Supreme Court.
-A vote for Hillary is by far the most likely way for this to happen.

6. press reform.

Lotsa danger here, in trying to restrict the Press. Although I must say that I've always liked England's laws that restrict campaigning to 30 days before an election, and no statements whatsoever about a pending legal case. I don't think any of that will happen, nor does the electorate want it. <sigh>




Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 25, 2016 - 12:38pm PT
The OP fears that Trump will the lead to country down the path to a Totalitarian regime and then recommends that we vote for.....Hillary Clinton.

The thing is, that Trump is a true unknown. The model that he has followed his entire life has been from a position of privilege, doing whatever he could to line his pockets, and working from a position of total authoritarianism.

However, with Hillary, we have a very well known model. When she was partners with the POTUS, they did NOT lead toward a totalitarian regime. She did NOT attempt to take over the Senate. She did not attempt to have the State Dept take over the power of other depts of gov't.

So, with respect to this particular fear, it is great with Trump, but remote with HRC.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 25, 2016 - 01:06pm PT
5. place stronger limits [and get rid of the loopholes] on the money that any entity [corporations, unions, individuals and the press] can spend on candidates.

I so agree, but it appears to require an action by the US Supreme Court.
-A vote for Hillary is by far the most likely way for this to happen.

That sort of thinking worries me, Ken, because this should require an amendment to the First Amendment, not merely a court that says the words in the Constitution have no meaning. "Congress shall make no law . . . abridging freedom of speech or of the press" doesn't really allow for much leeway. While money does not equal speech, one must spend money to propogate a message beyond just a few people, and propogation of messages forms the essence of freedom of speech and of the press.

Constitutional jurisprudence and respect for the Bill of Rights aside, limiting campaign contributions merely increases the advantages of incumbency. As I sid before, if you really want to get money out of politics, you need to take away politicians' ability to take from some and give to others. Last time I checked, almost no one wants to make that change.

This leads to the only truly responsible action, particularly in a one-party state like California. Vote for a climber for president!

Vote Johnson/Weld. It's both the intelligent and the responsible choice.

John
John M

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 01:10pm PT
Not sure what you mean dingus as I have been taking a hard look at myself for a number of years now and doing the best that I can to change.

If you mean liberals need to take a hard look at themselves. Then I agree wholeheartedly. This whole election cycle has pissed me off. Its no wonder so many people are turned off. We likely could have one of the lowest voter turn outs in history.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
"Not sure why you want me to shut up, Apogee. Just trying to get rational people to stand against the common threat... Is it because I don't bash the Republicans on regular bases? There are more important things than being dedicated to your party."



Ummm....Moose....who said anything about 'shutting you up'? Your view is as welcome as anyone else's.

Here's what I wrote, in response to this thread:

Jul 21, 2016 - 01:04pm PT
Much as I agree with you, another thread like this is really not needed or helpful. Matter of fact, it just pisses off a lot of people.


That's what I wrote. The point is, the numerous political threads that proliferate here are not welcome by a lot of users (not to mention CMac & co.), and if they are going to exist, consolidating such content into as few threads as possible is the reasonable, respectful thing to do.

I believe this is the case, even though I agree with your OP sentiments.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 25, 2016 - 01:26pm PT
That's a good list but a couple things catch my attention at first glance.

I don't like to see the words press and reform in the same sentence.

"LA is going to actually build it's own system from the ground up." IMO that right there us the recipe for disaster.

case in point

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 25, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
as much as I hate to say it, I am starting to think that trump will be elected.
Hillary, by hiring Wasserman-Schultz, lends credence to the whole lying/corrupt thing.
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Jul 25, 2016 - 01:56pm PT
This is why I read political forums, looking for stuff like this.

slowly but surely sad but true

Nice picture sir
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:14pm PT
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:21pm PT
Billary needs to bail and give the nomination to Senator Sanders. That's pretty much the only way to avoid...

President Drumpf.

Where are the Crooked Hillary fanboys now?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:22pm PT
You're using Drumpf terminology now?

Et tu, Naturus?

:(
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:27pm PT
A majority will be as well,soon..............
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:30pm PT
Well, there is an old Chinese proverb (curse?)...

Be careful what you wish for.

The country's better off now net-wise than ever before.
Look at the data. This country could go from 60 to zero in
two years. (Or two months?)
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:32pm PT
after the leaked emails... what's next?

and where's the crowd that was stating the primary was stacked in Bernie's favor? Looks like a ridiculous amount of BS at this point.

Two weeks ago on 538 she was 80% likely to win. it's now a dead heat and earlier today for a short while drumpf was 58% likely.

The super delegates need to jump ship and get Bernie in there. She's dropping like a rock and what with the addition of DWS to her campaign she's going from bad to worse. What a stupid f*#king move.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:33pm PT
Where's the perspective? Those emails weren't from HRC?
They weren't even from the chairman.

it's now a dead heat and earlier today for a short while drumpf was 58% likely.

It depends on which criterion you select. You want Drumpf to win?

You don't thin the Democratic Party under HRC leadership is likely to evolve the next four years? Trump's high risk for all the reasons made by Wapo and others in recent days.

Time to rally behind HRC, stop badmouthing her, and help get out the vote.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:36pm PT
"What a stupid f*#king move."

Yeah, I'd like to know how that possibly made any sense, whatsoever. At least wait until after the elections, ferchrissakes.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
of course i'll watch. but i'm also watching her drop like a rock and as every day goes by it's becoming more and more likely we'll have a drumpf disaster.

those emails were enough for DWS to step down. Why did she do that? And then to get added to the hillary campaign.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
Honestly you're like a second half way up a pitch
and now all you can say is you want to go down.

those emails were enough for DWS to step down. Why did she do that? And then to get added to the hillary campaign.

you post as if you don't think there's any gamesmanship in politics, sheesh.


...

"Complacency is the enemy."

So is sowing disunity.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:39pm PT
the second half of the pitch is falling off. I didn't sign up for a first ascent ;)
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:40pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:43pm PT
salve? an apology doesn't do much to change the increasing chances of a Drumpf presidency.

Assange could do the world a favor if he really has such emails and release them right now. Can't imagine that guy is much of a fan of the orange turd.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:49pm PT
Hi Nature,

I have thought about you losing Summit from time to time, so very sad for you

Did you get another dog?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:50pm PT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:50pm PT
Assange could do the world a favor if he really has such emails and release them right now. Can't imagine that guy is much of a fan of the orange turd.

That mystifies me, too. If he expects to see a Sanders candidacy, I think he's dreaming, and I can't see how he could see a Trump victory as good for the United States or the world.

Clearly, he must realize that the intelligent and virtuous choice is a climber for president. Vote Johnson/Weld!

John
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:51pm PT
naw moose.... I'm an idiot. Not really young either ;).

make no mistake I'm voting for the democrat. But geezus.... what was once an insurmountable lead is now gone. If she doesn't get a convention bump then it's over.


Though I suppose there's still tons of time for the orange turd to blow it. But counting on your opponent to step on his dik is bad strategy. doesn't seem to matter when he does anyway.


Edit: awe... Norton. Yeah, I still miss her a ton. I didn't get another dog. Maybe one day. Aya has Rockstar and he's a really awesome boy. My favorite boy dog ever.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:55pm PT
"what was once an insurmountable lead is now gone."

Oh, please. It's only July.

Though I suppose there's still tons of time

Exactly. Suck it up, man.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:56pm PT
Naturus, you sure we're looking at the same site?


The sky ain't falling.


Let's have another looksie tomorrow. And after this week. :)
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/

seems the site is changing hourly. but the numbers i posted are what's on there at this moment. And about an hour ago it was 58% drumpf (for less than 5 minutes).


the sky isn't falling. But she should be kicking the orange turds ass. Meanwhile she's doing stupid sh#t like hiring DWS.


i've been watching daily and it's making me want to vomit. 80.3% on June 29th... poooof!

Agreed about after this week. Especially once the super delegates bail and the name in blue changes ;)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:00pm PT
What you posted is the immediate, largely emotional response.
You should check out the others by using those buttons in the margin.

Be more optimistic!
Norton

Social climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
actually, the latest nationally polling is showing almost a dead heat with some polls Donald ahead

the much more important swing state polls that will deliver the Electoral Votes to be President don't get taken as often as the national polls

I suppose the reason is damn near all American voting adults do not recall ever getting educated on what and the importance of the Electoral College, probably because they were watching Married with Children instead

anyway, let's see what the swing state polls say in about two weeks after things settle down

the conventional wisdom is that we return to pre convention levels which would show Hillary with a not tiny, but small 2-5% lead in most swing states, putting her odds of being President back around 70 and 30 for The Donald
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
what button?!


And I liked it better when she was 75% likely to win Colorado. I seriously want to be able to write in Frank Zappa (Did that the last two times a Clinton ran for office)
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:05pm PT


This one here.......lol
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:06pm PT
what button?!

The polls plus forecast button.

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/#plus


Haha, your link was biased. :)
Norton

Social climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:06pm PT


Hillary Clinton’s campaign is pulling its television advertisements from Colorado, at least temporarily, after building a sizable and durable lead in the traditional battleground state.


The decision could reflect increasing confidence about Clinton’s chances to capture Colorado’s nine electoral votes in the fall. But a Clinton campaign official, granted anonymity to discuss the campaign's internal operations, stressed the campaign's advertising strategy against Donald Trump will change constantly over the next three months.

Colorado was part of the Clinton campaign’s initial, general-election advertising campaign, which began in mid-June and cost at least $22 million. But Monday is the final day of that ad buy.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
""what was once an insurmountable lead is now gone."

Oh, please. It's only July. "



This hand wringing is pretty pointless right now...the polls aren't going to stabilize much and become reasonably reliable for another couple of weeks. Gotta get past the Conventions by a few weeks.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
so I can quit huffing glue to make myself feel better?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:12pm PT
like father like son....

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:13pm PT
Try this article, Nature...It's by Nate Silver.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-clintons-lead-is-as-safe-as-kerrys-was-in-2004/


The upshot: it's too early to rely on polls as a predictor for anything. They are notoriously erratic at this time.

And: It's all about the Electoral College votes.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
The upshot: it's too early to rely on polls as a predictor for anything.

Of course. But they're fun.


(You should play along.)
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:26pm PT
True.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:32pm PT
We need to unite and face the imminent danger that is Donald Trump. He is not a Republican or a Democrat. He is a narcissistic individual manipulating unsuspecting victims.

Smart Man.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:32pm PT
I F*#KING HATE THE CLINTON'S!!!!!!

Never, ever doubt that the Clinton's and their evil network of paid surrogate hacks along with the DNC, have been sneaking around for seven years, feverishly working through quid pro quo, payoffs, favors and threats to clear the field.

Now we're left to choose between an incapable, demonic, narcissistic, petty, insecure, neo fascist and a capable yet, manipulative cutthroat.

How did it come to this? "Stupid fuking Americans!"

Norton

Social climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
so I can quit huffing glue to make myself feel better?

it's all a father could ever want for his son....
Norton

Social climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:42pm PT
take a deep breath, Contractor

and write in yourself in November, you do not have to vote for anyone
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:48pm PT
Contractor ,I hear you.

How many mulligans do you get,really?

Say what you want,I have told you before.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 03:52pm PT
I'm writing in Wolfman Jack for President. Even though he is dead he would be better than scumbag Trump and dumbo Clinton.


wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 25, 2016 - 04:03pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 06:09pm PT
It's a video kinda day, eh?

Here's what should happen to the rude sonofabitch Donny Trump.

No guns were used in the filming of this lesson and you don't have to cash in your 401-K to view it. Woodrow Call for Clinton's press secretary.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 25, 2016 - 06:09pm PT

Assange could do the world a favor if he really has such emails and release them right now. Can't imagine that guy is much of a fan of the orange turd.

He might wait until November.
It seems Asange has it in for Clinton.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jul 25, 2016 - 06:11pm PT
it's almost like HRC sucks the sickest most diseased dong in the world of politic$
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 06:13pm PT
Whatcha drinkin' tonight, bravecowboy?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 25, 2016 - 06:45pm PT
I just heard something pretty funny on the radio.

George Stephanopolis interviewed a delegate at the Democrat convention.

He asked him what he thought of Sanders throwing in with HRC to defeat Trump. The delegate answered:

"I think he's right. We have the worst Republican nominee since George Wallace."

Oops. Wallace was a Democrat all his life. To their credit, the Democrats did not nominate him. But no one on the set appeared not to know that either.

My post is not meant to be partisan in any way. I'm sure at least as many Republican delegates and prominent anchormen are this woefully misinformed. But good God, these guys (and their female colleagues) should know this stuff. If they don't then how about the voters. Sad really.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 06:55pm PT
Sorry to change to story line.

Wallace was an ape. Which would be the extreme right wing of the "Republican Redneck party".





Recall Katzenbach was a Democrat.


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 25, 2016 - 06:58pm PT

It seems Asange has it in for Clinton.

as he should!? but if he is really that smart, he know's clinton was/is just a puppet.i'm sure he's waging donald for donations right now.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:03pm PT
Sound familiar?

Wallace won nearly 10 million votes that November

He captured about 13% of the popular vote nationwide, carrying five Southern states. In California, he won nearly 7% of the vote.

blue - Humphrey
Pink - Nixon
Other - Wallace


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/ElectoralCollege1968.svg/2000px-ElectoralCollege1968.svg.png
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
the demo's propaganda push of "togetherness", seems to be split! atleast on The Floor right now. hillary needs a hug, but bernie is crossarmed
dirtbag

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:12pm PT
It still pales in comparison to the republicans.


Remember that millions more dems voted for Hillary, and millions more republicans voted for not trump than trump.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
if i were going to vote for a President's wife..

i'd vote for MICHELLE! yOU gO gIRL!

Obamama 2020! That's money!


have you seen her karaoke???
John M

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:20pm PT
that was a powerful speech..
dirtbag

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
I can't remember a better speech from anyone in years.

A++++

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
Sorry to change to story line.

Wallace was an ape. Which would be the extreme right wing of the "Republican Redneck party".

Nice catch Z Brown. It certainly makes those "journalists" come across as less ignorant.

Wallace was a registered Democrat his entire life, except for a brief period in the late 60s.

He ran for President in 1972 as a Democrat. He was leading in the polls up until he was shot.

He ran for Governor of Alabama in 1982 as a Democrat. He won.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:23pm PT
Michelle is unbelievably poised, confident, impassioned and articulate.

Michelle 2024!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:24pm PT
dirtbag

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:30pm PT
Here come the barrage of childish Pocahontas tweets...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:35pm PT
C'mon, it makes no sense to make that comparison.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:39pm PT
You're watching this, Dean? Good on ya.

I watched all nights of the RNC. Didn't spit even once (though I did laugh a lot).

The only way we will ever move forward together is if we listen to each other.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:40pm PT
Can we break it down?


Demo_lition derby

JKF, RFK, Wallace, Huey Long

Martin Luther King (neither, but probably not AIP)
Medger Evers (NAACP)


On the Repub side

Lincoln, Reagan, (almost) Ford


More than I want to chew right now

lookeesee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinated_American_politicians







rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:40pm PT
Wasserman has a striking resemblance to Medusa...
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:46pm PT



[Click to View YouTube Video]
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 25, 2016 - 07:58pm PT
Here come Bernie!(the only celebrated white haired white man!)

[youtube=http://youtu.be/g93mz_eZ5N4]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:04pm PT
Of course it does, Cragman, It always has, and fairly rightfully so. This isn't news, is it?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:07pm PT

Barack uses different dialects based on his audience.....something I find completely pathetic.

"when visiting Rome, speak roman!
Paul

for 7 9/10th's years barrack spoke to everyone BUT the negro's. thought you might have heard him?
John M

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:10pm PT
Hillary Clinton is not even remotely in the top one tenth of one percent. Not even.

When I was growing up, to be "Texas rich" one use to have to have 100 million dollars. Now 500 million dollars doesn't even do that. Texas rich is a term used to describe the wealthiest.



What I hear is a call for fairness.

I agree Moose..
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:13pm PT
F 'n Gates Pickens Koch Madov Trump Jobs

...

Beau coup dinky dau

That said, Clinton has released her tax returns

Take a look

It's not so much how big your pie is, but how it got cooked.

When you start ranking on how Clinton is so wealthy you better factor in how she stacks up with any of the above.
John M

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:18pm PT
of course she is rich. Contrary to what conservatives believe, liberals don't hate rich. They don't like obscenely rich. Texas Rich defines obscenely rich.

Take the Walton family. They become obscenely rich by paying their employees grotesquely low wages. They became obscenely rich by forcing out other businesses and then raising prices giving people few choices of where to shop. They became obscenely rich by making their jobs primarily part time, so that they could avoid paying benefits.

They could have been very successful, while paying a fair wage and treating their people well. That kind of success is still admired.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:23pm PT
Enjoying Bernie's call for justice.

Raising the minumum wage, however, is over simplistic and short term. It makes the rich richer by causing rent inflation and increasing property values.

It cuts off starting workers.

We do need to care for unable people somehow but this is not it.


I will never waste my vote on a major candidate. I will continue to support the odd parties and attempt to steer things my way with that.
John M

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:31pm PT
Not bullsh#t. I know a number of people who work at Walmart. They struggle to get full-time hours even though their store is still hiring people. They struggle to get benefits. Some positions become full time. But many of them are restricted to 30 hours..
Norton

Social climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:34pm PT
Unbelievable.

Tell the poor that Donald Trump is not rich.


education is SO important nowadays

I plan on wasting my vote on the green party
John M

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:35pm PT
oh please. the hours have been limited from the beginning. Walmart runs on corporate welfare. Many of their employees make a low enough wage to qualify for food stamp. While the family is worth over 140 billion dollars. That is obscene.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
What is the biggest 'socialistic' program, dollar wise?


Beau
Coup
Dinky
Dau
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:41pm PT

What I hear is a call for fairness.

Pfffft. fairness where??? where's the fairness at the top of a mountain? or at the bottom of the sea? you don't know me! fuc your bridle.

FREEDOM!

BITCHES.

NOT Freeness
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:42pm PT
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:44pm PT



zBrown

Ice climber

Jul 25, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
What is the biggest 'socialistic' program, dollar wise?


The U.S. Military, by far. At it's best, the Armed Services are a great example of socialism and meritocracy.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:52pm PT
Interesting!

Send resumes to Apple.

Don't live in Asia?

No problem

Honduras is hiring, puto

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:53pm PT
Cragman...I like my head in the sand...
John M

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:53pm PT
Yep.. there are quite a few low functioning people working at Walmart. There are also people who work hard. they struggle to get more then 30 hours a week. That is a fact. Its a business model that walmart has to avoid benefits for a large group of its employees. Its also why they can mostly only attract low functioning people.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
Dean, I watched ALL of the RNC, and there's no comparison between ANY of the nights of the RNC vs. what happened on Day 1 of the DNC.

Waaaaaaay more drama, passion, excitement...not to mention ATTENDANCE...set aside the rhetoric and the ideology, and there was a HHHHUUUUUGGGGEEE difference.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
Major scandal

M. Obama

Cribbed speech from Palin



BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:59pm PT

What a contrast Day 1 was to the hate-fest in Cleveland last week. Night and day.

same ol yada yada! the repubs trumpet how great things could be. while the pathetic dems only game in town is wack-a-mole.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:00pm PT
Apogee.. Give up.... You've been licked.... all over...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:04pm PT
Well, there's nothing like being licked properly, that's a fact.

So what parts of the RNC licked your favorite places, Cragman? I don't remember you chiming in during or after the RNC with your unbridled enthusiasm for the licking you'd received...
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:04pm PT
No, ap.....you're simply biased because you're a liberal....and tonight's speakers licked you in all your favorite places.

Hehe
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:05pm PT
BTW

At last count Walmart's "functionality" index matched precisely that of the Sinaloa cartel and Trump's purported campaign staff.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:07pm PT
hey maybe that's my problem... I haven't been licked in all my favorite places - not at one time - since my 20s.

Sure miss my teens and 20s.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:08pm PT

Its a business model that walmart has to avoid benefits for a large group of its employees. Its also why they can mostly only attract low functioning people.

exactly dude. it's a business, emotions need not apply! same should go with politics!
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:08pm PT
I want to take in this rare moment of agreement with BLUEBLOCKR and Cragman that Michelle Obama is a star!

I'm guessing you guys would have been pretty happy with John Kasich (respectable man).

My Democratic party sucks but your party is a giant pink boil with a festering white head on the face of America.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:13pm PT

My Democratic party sucks but your party is a giant pink boil with a festering white head on the face of America.

hey thanks!

i like JohnK., but whats queer is that i don't know who's pull'in his strings. Yet.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:16pm PT
That's a pretty good summary of the RNC, Crag.

And makes my point perfectly.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:18pm PT
It's difficult getting air after you've eaten a carton of twinkies...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:20pm PT
And she didn't plagiarize Melania even once!
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:30pm PT

The U.S. Military, by far. At it's best, the Armed Services are a great example of socialism and meritocracy.


There is signifcant quibbling to be done relative to "meritcracy", but righto.

If only McNamara were still alive to give us true cost/benefit ratios.



10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
Michelle's speech was great, especially the line about 140 characters.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
Here's a little Michelle truth for ya, Craggy....

“That is the story of this country, the story that has brought me to this stage tonight, the story of generations of people who felt the lash of bondage, the shame of servitude, the sting of segregation, but who kept on striving and hoping and doing what needed to be done so that today I wake up every morning in a house that was built by slaves,” she said. “And I watch my daughters, two beautiful, intelligent, black young women playing with their dogs on the White House lawn. And because of Hillary Clinton, my daughters and all our sons and daughters now take for granted that a woman can be president of the United States.”
WBraun

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:38pm PT
The stuportopo Hillary loons are criminals.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:41pm PT
Medusa looks better as a guy...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:41pm PT
Here's a little more Michelle truth for ya...

"See, because at that moment I realized that our time in the White House would form the foundation for who they (our daughters) would become and how well we managed this experience could truly make or break them. That is what Barack and I think about every day as we try to guide and protect our girls through the challenges of this unusual life in the spotlight, how we urge them to ignore those who question their father’s citizenship or faith.

How we insist that the hateful language they hear from public figures on TV does not represent the true spirit of this country.

How we explain that when someone is cruel or acts like a bully, you don’t stoop to their level. No, our motto is, when they go low, we go high."


Tell me, Dean, that you wouldn't provide exactly the same advice to your children.
jstan

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:43pm PT
In no special order I can see myself voting for:
1. Barack
2. Hillary
3. Biden
4. Kerry
5. Gore
6. Bernie
7. Collin Powell
8. Eliot Spitzer
9. Warren
10. Jerry Brown

The Democrats have a very deep bench.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:49pm PT
Not so much the rigging as who's captaining the ship.


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:54pm PT
Awright, awright....I give up.

No matter how much truth Michelle delivered in that speech...no matter how many inarguable, universal truths it might have contained, you hate Barack Obama. And that's gonna obscure anything and everything. Ah, well.


Sleep well, and safe travels.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 10:00pm PT
Oh, crank.....once again, you ARE Obama. Nothing could be further from the truth. But I digress....

UnEmployment is down;

Stock market is up;

Growth is up.

There are still many challenges, but to argue that overall, the situation has not greatly improved over 2008-2009, I.e., when the Great Recession was at its worst, is disingenuous.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 25, 2016 - 10:10pm PT
^^^true. time and exponential population growth has a way of demanding that, right?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 25, 2016 - 10:18pm PT
Consequences? You mean digging us out of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression? The one the last Republican president left?

You mean the one the last Democratic and Republican congresses left? It may or may not have been the worst financial crisis, but it was the biggest employment and output dip. That depth did not, however, differ in any order of magnitude from many of the other postwar recessions. Obama did, however, preside over the weakest postwar recovery, and the reasons are largely on him -- costly, anti-business regulation and counterproductive legislation (e.g. Dodd-Frank and the ACA). This is the longest period in my 65-year lifetime in which the U.S. economy has not sustained a 3% real growth rate.

John
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 25, 2016 - 10:22pm PT

no matter how many inarguable, universal truths it might have contained,

hey, one of those inarguable truths she provided, her last mentioned.

"God Bless America!"

don't think we'll ever hear an orangutan say that..
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 10:29pm PT
Interesting that Obama is able to determine the way the economy moves.

Could Reagan have done the same?

Looking for evidence that the policies mentioned
had the alleged effects and that Obama instituted them.

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 26, 2016 - 04:59am PT
UnEmployment is down;

Stock market is up;

Growth is up.

There are still many challenges, but to argue that overall, the situation has not greatly improved over 2008-2009, I.e., when the Great Recession was at its worst, is disingenuous.

To argue that the situation is improved with a 100% increase in national debt to the tune of $20 Trillion dollars isn't disingenuous, its just plain stoopid.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Jul 26, 2016 - 07:14am PT
To argue that the situation is improved with a 100% increase in national debt to the tune of $20 Trillion dollars isn't disingenuous, its just plain stoopid.

+1
Norton

Social climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 07:21am PT
explain the consequences of a rising national debt please?

then explain why interest rates are the lowest level over 80 years in the US

and then explain why you vote Republican every election when the House of Representatives is controlled since 2010 by Republicans

and every spending bill, every increase in the debt was and continues to be approved by the Republicans you vote into office

you personally OWN the increase in the debt by voting twice for Bush who doubled the debt and you OWN the debt since 2010 by voting in House Republicans

oh, and guess what else ?

the Republicans YOU vote for are also in control the US Senate and they too have voted for every dollar increase in the debt

but you didn't know any of that, did you bunky?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jul 26, 2016 - 07:39am PT
This is the longest period in my 65-year lifetime in which the U.S. economy has not sustained a 3% real growth rate.

During Obama's presidency GDP has increased 13%, while the DJIA has increased 124%.

Median household income has fallen.

What percentage of the US population has really benefited from this recovery?

*Edited/clarified for Fritz.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 26, 2016 - 07:49am PT
EdwardT! Re your question:
Who has really benefited from this recovery?


I have! The best earning years of my life. Millions of other Americans are doing great too. If you start looking at the amount of new constructions, trucks on the highways, & mobs of people in retail stores, you might be able to question the "Nabobs of Negatism" in the Republican party that are trying very-hard to make Americans think times are tough.

Times are not tough, get over it.

Of couse, you might be one of those that is having tough times. If so, try to be a little more positive, it might help your future.

Edit Note to Edward T: I'll stick with answering your original question, not the edited one.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 08:13am PT
Yes, Esco, times were so much better when the country was shedding 800,000 jobs per month, housing prices plummeted, the stock market crashed, and we had negative growth. What can i say? You got me.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 26, 2016 - 08:52am PT
Make America Implode Again!

Trump/Pence 2016
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:03am PT
So, just to be clear; when Hillary gets elected are we still blaming Bush or will we switch to Obeezy?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:09am PT
There isn't a simple answer. For many of our problems you can blame FDR, Truman, Ike, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, ford, carter, Reagan, bush, Clinton, bush, or Obama.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:09am PT
Stop that, dirt. Complex answers like that can make Esco's head explode.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:22am PT
I still blame Hoover
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:25am PT
Curious, and yet almost all of you retards are going to simply vote from more of the same.

Makes sense.

You back on my knob Apogee? Little more to the left please.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:45am PT
I forget...who you gonna vote for, Esco?

Norton

Social climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:46am PT
Curious, and yet almost all of you retards are going to simply vote from more of the same.

oh no, I am going to vote for the Green Party just because I want change
Norton

Social climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:49am PT
looks like Trump is in bed with Putin

that why you gonna vote for him, Excreto?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:57am PT
Edit Note to Edward T: I'll stick with answering your original question, not the edited one.

Makes sense. Why discuss the ugly truth affecting the mainstream when you can boast about your own good fortune.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:58am PT
There have been several mentions of low interest rates as if that's a good thing. There is an optimal range for interest rates, and right now they're too low. The risk of lending money outweighs the gains. But we're between a rock and a hard place since even a modest hike in interest will increase the cost of servicing the debt to where it will be a significant part of the budget. we are especially vulnerable to this since all of the governments borrowing is done on short term loans, so changes in interest rates affect us almost immediately.

The question was asked "what is the effect of the debt?" A hike in interest rates, which would be good news economically (businesses will have easier access to money for equipment, people, etc.) has the potential to sink us into a state where programs will have to be defunded to pay the interest. So the Fed will keep adding to the money supply to depress interest rates and "grow" the economy. But when the money supply grows faster than the economy for long enough the inevitable result is inflation.

Pick yer poison.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 26, 2016 - 10:04am PT
Let's see...which POTUS should I choose to manage such things...

A candidate with actual political leadership experience, who has direct experience with life in the White House, and a demonstrated history of getting things done....

Or a candidate who has bankrupted 5 companies, stiffed the employees working for him, has NO experience in government whatsoever, but is best buddies with Putin...


Tough choice.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 26, 2016 - 10:20am PT
It's amazing how blind the strong supporters on either "side" are to reality and just how bad both options are.

But yet this false dichotomy created of two "teams" allows the charade of voting to continue unabated. Different colors, animal mascots, etc. Fascinating.

Good stuff...

Apologies.

Back to your regular programming.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 10:22am PT
the national debt has now been largely refinanced

as each debt instrument came to maturity the holders rolled it over into much lower interest rates, including brief spells at negative returns

all great news, in fact the best possible outcome

I will ask one more time, why was old man Conventional Wisdom SO wrong?

he claimed and most everyone believed that a rising national debt had, simply had to result in higher interest rates, yet rates are at the lowest level in the past 80 years

IF you are a traditionalist who believes that what happened in the past means the same thing has to happen in the future given largely the same circumstances then explain why you and Conventional Wisdom were so very wrong this time
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 26, 2016 - 10:30am PT
I will ask one more time, why was old man Conventional Wisdom SO wrong?

he claimed and most everyone believed that a rising national debt had, simply had to result in higher interest rates, yet rates are at the lowest level in the past 80 years

Old Man Conventional Wisdom assumed that the economy would recover as it did in previous recessions, but instead the economy got hit with the most anti-business regulations in my lifetime. This administration's environmental, labor, financial and legal actors have drastically increased the cost of doing business in this country, and left businesses with fewer opportunities for making money by investing in new plant, equipment or services.

In a normal recovery, demand for investment goods and services would increase the demand for money, raising interest rates. In this economy, where there is little in which to make real investment (as opposed merely to trading assets), the cash stays on the sidelines. If the economy ever takes off, which it should eventually, absent something truly incompetent (such as Trumpian trade policy), inflation and interest rates will both rise.

So the good news is that we haven't had to worry about rising interest rates despite our increased national debt. The bad news is that if the economy ever starts performing the way it has historically, inflation and high interest rates will come roaring back.

John
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 26, 2016 - 10:40am PT
John....Kris.....

good points.


Norton... come on, getting a new credit card every year and maxing it out is a loosing game.

One day conventional wisdom (reality is a better word IMHO) will come flying back to bite you in the ass. (all of us really)

pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 26, 2016 - 10:58am PT
looks like Trump is in bed with Putin

when Trump becomes president well find out if he can put some missiles in Poland.. bush tried and same with Obama..
dirtbag

climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 11:01am PT
Pyro, he won't even try. He doesn't really give a sh#t about nato.

Not steadfastly honoring that treaty by waffling on our willingness to stand by our allies during a crisis is by far the most reckless and dangerous thing he has said, and should automatically disqualify him as president.

"Keep America Safe" my ass!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 26, 2016 - 11:24am PT
No matter what we think of the candidates in this election, the leaks of Clinton's emails, with the promise of more to come, is good news for Putin. It's not so clear that it's good news for this country.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2016/07/25/dnc-data-dump-gives-putin-a-two-for-one-win/#164dff96427f

John
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 26, 2016 - 11:25am PT
So, just to be clear; when Hillary gets elected are we still blaming Bush or will we switch to Obeezy?


Interesting Repub logic: someone murders someone, and as time goes on, put the blame on somebody else.

Bush will ALWAYS own Iraq and Afghanistan. For the rest of recorded history.

Otherwise, when do we start blaming Bush for Monica??????
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 26, 2016 - 11:35am PT
Curious, and yet almost all of you retards are going to simply vote from more of the same.

More of the same has meant a gradually improving economy, jobs, stock market. Sudden lurches are probably mostly a bad idea, except in times of crisis, which is not now.

I also like the concept of serious examination of where the increased productivity of workers has resulted in no hikes in their wages, but record increases in executive compensation, corporate earnings.

You really have to feel sorry for the well off----having to sit at home, biting their nails, trying to figure out the best investment to put their tax rebates into.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 26, 2016 - 11:37am PT
No matter what we think of the candidates in this election, the leaks of Clinton's emails, with the promise of more to come, is good news for Putin. It's not so clear that it's good news for this country.

Not to call you on an error, John, but the leaked emails were NOT Clinton's. I'm not sure if that was a subtle attempt to morph the problem into a person action by her, which it was definitely NOT.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 26, 2016 - 11:49am PT
Ken,

"Well off" is a broad spectrum. I'm just curious for something more specific.

A salaried or self employed professional making 300K? (i.e. doctor, executive, small business...)

Or how much net worth?

Tax rebates?

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 26, 2016 - 11:49am PT
Correction accepted, Ken. I just assumed the worst. As one person in the intelligence community put it, though, "I would lose respect for any foreign intelligence agency that did not hack her private server." I just worry that the Wikileaks actions could be a sort of partisanship first, with no regard to the damage done to our country. Whether we're Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, or unaffiliated, we should hope that the hacks we fear never happened, and we should not be gleeful if they did and the contents exposed. Any such leaks represent potentially incalculable damage to the USA.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 26, 2016 - 11:50am PT
Otherwise, when do we start blaming Bush for Monica??????

Not to be picky, but Hillary already did, assuming he's part of the vast, right-wing conspiracy.

John
c wilmot

climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 11:58am PT
I am glad the dnc got hacked.it shows how corrupt the system is
dirtbag

climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 12:03pm PT
C wilmot and Putin find common ground.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 12:04pm PT

amnesia again

unbelievable

you, John, personally OWN the Recession and the worst foreign policy failure in Iraq

because you voted Republican again in 04 and the consequences of future rising national debt due to a massive tax cut at the same time as war in Iraq

you own the Recession, your party had the Presidency, House, and Senate from 2000-2006 when the economy was fast sliding into rapidly slowing growth and then Recession

and make no mistake about it, John, it was the abject failure of the republican philosophy of NOT regulating markets that caused the implosion in both CDOs and MBSs, do not ever ever let a Republican voter open their mouth about "economy", they have zero credibliity

and then incredibly when Bush slunk out of office the economy was losing 500,000 jobs a month, so what does JohnE do, he points out the the recovery from recession was not fast enough for his liking, give me a break

your dog sh#t on the carpet and my wife did not clean it up fast enough?

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 26, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
Correction accepted, Ken. I just assumed the worst. As one person in the intelligence community put it, though, "I would lose respect for any foreign intelligence agency that did not hack her private server." I just worry that the Wikileaks actions could be a sort of partisanship first, with no regard to the damage done to our country. Whether we're Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, or unaffiliated, we should hope that the hacks we fear never happened, and we should not be gleeful if they did and the contents exposed. Any such leaks represent potentially incalculable damage to the USA.

John


On this we certainly agree......
c wilmot

climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 12:07pm PT
Sure do. Putin fights Isis while Clinton and Obama aid the " rebels" who are .... Isis.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 26, 2016 - 12:10pm PT
Ken,

"Well off" is a broad spectrum. I'm just curious for something more specific.

A salaried or self employed professional making 300K? (i.e. doctor, executive, small business...)

Or how much net worth?

Tax rebates?

Our tax system is based upon income, not net worth, so I'm willing to accept your definition of that. Anyone making 300K (and that's NET, not GROSS) is certainly not living in poverty, nor worried about where their next meal will come from.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 26, 2016 - 12:21pm PT
Nice try, Norton, but the Democrats own the anemia in this recovery, since all of the policies that weakened it are theirs. The housing bubble had bipartisan parents, as shown by the bipartisan agreement on making housing easier to purchase for those who could not really afford it, and keeping Fannie and Freddie operating as they were, despite warnings from conservatives, and repeated editorials in the Wall Street Journal, among others, for years about their dangers. Mssrs. Dodd and Frank were two of the most active people in maintaining the housing expansion's status quo, and resisting reform. Those expecting Dodd and Frank to fix the problems they helped create engaged in Einsteinian insanity.

That said, I agree that trying conduct two wars and a prescription drug benefit with no increase in government revenue contributed to the deficit, and the Republicans own the blame there. Trying to blame tax cuts for the miserable economic performance now, however, defies both facts and analysis. Ignoring the cost of this administration's hostile actions toward business continues to cost Americans jobs. Too bad the Democrats' mirrors have broken.

John
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 26, 2016 - 12:27pm PT
I am glad Bernie sees those problems and keeps fighting for us.

"US"? More hilarity from the OP.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 26, 2016 - 12:29pm PT
The revolution must continue!

Begs the question, does the revolution continue if Clinton is elected, or if trump is elected?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 26, 2016 - 12:35pm PT
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 26, 2016 - 12:55pm PT
How convenient for the politicians that people are deluded into thinking its the corporations that are ruining the country.....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 26, 2016 - 01:05pm PT
Some might be proud we have enough military to kill everybody on the Earth many times over, but I feel ashamed.

Oh, and we're steadily working on that. Neither puppet candidate wants to touch that third rail topic. Hillary will continue to murder in the ME (because she's a proven member of that club) and Donald would likely too (to make us great again). Sick.

And what's the real expense of having our killing machine encompass the entire world? Probably 2-3x the number you read in the budget.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 26, 2016 - 01:10pm PT
I am glad Bernie sees those problems and keeps fighting for us. The revolution must continue!

Another card carrying member of the SuperTopo Robespierre Chowder and Marching Society!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 26, 2016 - 01:55pm PT
Cone on John
Ignoring the cost of this administration's hostile actions toward business continues to cost Americans jobs.

What are these hostile actions toward businesses specifically??????????

And you claim that they are 100% due to Obama's policies?????
and what environmental regulations are causing our economy so much trouble?

Please respond with some back up.
Because these claims have zero bearing in reality
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 26, 2016 - 01:56pm PT
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/07/26/why-would-russia-interfere-in-the-u-s-election-because-it-usually-works/

An example of the irresponsible impact that Trump is already having, and the trend of which should scare the sh*t out of everyone:

Why would Russia interfere in the U.S. election? Because it sometimes works.

More generally, an intervention can only succeed if someone in the targeted country chooses to cooperate with the outside power. American and Soviet interventions only worked because the rival superpowers could find parties whose beliefs (or greed) proved simpatico. But the Soviet Union never successfully intervened in an American election because no major political figure would want to be associated with the Soviet Union. Collaboration would have been unthinkable.

Until this week, one would have thought that a similar taboo would have applied to profiting from the apparent theft and release of documents by a foreign actor in an attempt to influence an American election. Giving credence to such documents might seem tempting, especially if juicy revelations seemed to undermine a rival. Of course, such documents could easily be forged (as some in the DNC leak may have been). And, more important, even if the documents are real, their release hardly constitutes a public good, since a foreign power would be deciding what gets released and when in the pursuit of its own self interest.

The best strategy for the national interest, then, would be to put such documents beyond the pale. Yet the Trump campaign has embraced the tactical upside of the scandal, with the candidate himself even taking to Twitter to celebrate the Democrats’ misfortune. Regardless of whether this document leak was the product of a foreign government’s actions, Trump’s choice raises the likelihood that the next one will be.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 26, 2016 - 02:06pm PT
fear
why do you continue to throw out these lies about Hillary in every post
Hoping if you say it enough that someone might agree?
Hillary will continue to murder in the ME

So some other idiot will chime in, Yeah, she's a real killer alright, at least Trump isn't a murderer.
so lame


Hillary did not order the death of a single human on this planet ever, and she didn't do it with her own hands.
Any possible deaths that she would have had any involvement with would of been publicized, and that hasn't happened.

So mathematically, she has murdered exactly ZERO humans
not the thousands that you lie about

if you want to place blame, you got to go to the top, Obama, she was representing the Obama Administration's policies, she wasn't allowed to go rouge and do anything she wanted.
That's what Secretary's of State do, represent the President's agenda.

jeese, get real
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 26, 2016 - 02:22pm PT
John Lewis
Great speech!!

"There are forces that want to take us back 50 years.

We are not going back, we are going forward!
You gotta vote harder this year than you ever ever voted before!"
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 26, 2016 - 02:36pm PT
Escopeta, you are welcome to add substance to this thread.

Add? You're kidding right? That implies that whining about mean Mr Flophair and advocating for Hillary is somehow rife with content and substance?

Good grief.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 02:59pm PT
Anyone else nervous about other sh#t bombs Assange might drop?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 26, 2016 - 03:32pm PT
Nice try, Norton, but the Democrats own the anemia in this recovery, since all of the policies that weakened it are theirs. The housing bubble had bipartisan parents, as shown by the bipartisan agreement on making housing easier to purchase for those who could not really afford it, and keeping Fannie and Freddie operating as they were, despite warnings from conservatives, and repeated editorials in the Wall Street Journal, among others, for years about their dangers. Mssrs. Dodd and Frank were two of the most active people in maintaining the housing expansion's status quo, and resisting reform. Those expecting Dodd and Frank to fix the problems they helped create engaged in Einsteinian insanity.

The Republicans since Goldwater/Reagan were the party of deregulate it, deregulate it, deregulate it. Sure, the Democrats eventually got on board the band wagon (not to their credit), but Reagan laid the foundation that any government is bad. Getting rid of any regulation is good. The private sector will always do better.

The roll of Fannie and Freddie has also been greatly exageratted, but whatever.

The real issue, 2008 was not a garden variety recession. For instance, Reagans recession in 82 was because the Fed jacked up interest rates to kill inflation. It put the country in recession and worked. As soon as rates were cut, the economy roared back.

2008 was a banking crisis and debt de-leveraging. Countries don't make quick recoveries from those. Compared to other Western countries the US did extremely well. The "it could have been worse" argument is a political hard sell. That doesn't make it wrong.

For all that I hate about the Bush administration, they actually did a pretty good job after Lehman collapsed. A bi-partisan congress actually gave the Fed/Treasury the tools to avert another Great Depression. If the stimulus had been bigger, the country would have bounced back quicker, but for a once-in-a-generation (we hope) banking crisis, not too bad.

Dodd Frank does some good things and some bad. It does add a lot of paper work for small firms, but given how incrediably complicated of a finance system this country has created and the difficulty of getting legislation through congress, there is not much help for that. It does explicitly prevent the Fed/Treasury from using some of the tools they used in the last crises to avert disaster.

Making it harder to pump in money during a crisis is likely to make the next one will be far worse.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 03:35pm PT
Instead of breaking it down for ya, let's sum it up.

Summary
The savings and loan crisis of the 1980s and early
1990s produced the greatest collapse of U.S. financial
institutions since the Great Depression. Over the
1986–1995 period, 1,043 thrifts with total assets of over
$500 billion failed. The large number of failures overwhelmed
the resources of the FSLIC, so U.S. taxpayers
were required to back up the commitment
extended to insured depositors of the failed institutions.
As of December 31, 1999, the thrift crisis had
cost taxpayers approximately $124 billion and the
thrift industry another $29 billion, for an estimated
total loss of approximately $153 billion. The losses
were higher than those predicted in the late 1980s,
when the RTC was established, but below those forecasted
during the early to mid-1990s, at the height of
the crisis.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jul 26, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
Craig, I disagree that the Secretary of State is less powerful than the president. The Secretary of State is the most powerful appointment in the world, it is usually an extremely powerful person and only rarely (mostly recently) a figurehead. Take Henry Kissinger....please.



Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 26, 2016 - 04:10pm PT
Wikipedia

Henry Alfred Kissinger born Heinz Alfred Kissinger [haɪnts ˈalfʁɛt ˈkɪsɪŋɐ]; born May 27, 1923) is an American diplomat and political scientist. He served as National Security Advisor and later concurrently as United States Secretary of State in the administrations of presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford.

He was a Republican, no comparison to modern times

Is Colin Powell personally responsible for all the deaths associated with 9/11, and the Afghanistan and Iraq occupations?

No
Bush and Cheney are responsible
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 26, 2016 - 04:26pm PT
The Republicans since Goldwater/Reagan were the party of deregulate it, deregulate it, deregulate it. Sure, the Democrats eventually got on board the band wagon (not to their credit), but Reagan laid the foundation that any government is bad. Getting rid of any regulation is good. The private sector will always do better.

The oldest debating tactic. Exaggerate the other sides positions to the point of absurdity to make your position make more sense. Nobody, least of all Reagan, has suggested that all government is bad. Just that in many situations government is the problem, not the solution.

Unless you think that government is incapable of doing wrong, then you have to get this point. The Federal government enacts thousands of new regulations each year. We're not talking about clean air and water, or throwing granny off the cliff.

The FDA is declaring war on companies like DoTerra, which produce and sell essential oils. They just passed 500 pages of regulations on e-cigarettes. How about drug "regulations" which lead to the incarceration of huge numbers of people with substance abuse problems who do not belong in jail, but rather in rehab. The EPA sends drones over ranches, and if the rancher has made a pond to water his cattle they can and have declared said pond to be wetlands, and levy fines against the rancher. So now we have an un-elected agency making law and setting fines. I could list pages of this crap. Regulation is so deeply rooted that most of us cannot avoid being in violation of one or more tax laws or some other regulation which justifies the existence of the bureaucracy but hurts the citizen.

So taking a stand against over-regulation and big government over-reach is not anti government.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
Cost of the Reagan S&L dereg, $153 billion.


The cost of not dying from cncer? Priceless.


fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 26, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
Hillary did not order the death of a single human on this planet ever, and she didn't do it with her own hands.
Any possible deaths that she would have had any involvement with would of been publicized, and that hasn't happened.

Craig, sure she did and of course it wasn't with her own hands.

Do a little research on the original meddling in Libya. If anything Obama wasn't fully on board although he did ultimately sign off on it.

Listen to her cackle about the murder of Qaddafi...

She's a murderer, plain and simple.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 26, 2016 - 08:15pm PT
plain and simple
You don't know what the hell you are talking about


The Libya intervention was a UN Security Counsel Resolution
Hillary didn't have anything to do with the decision to intervene or the outcome

The total death count was less than a 1000
Gadhafi promised to kill 10's of thousands of his own people

The UN saved those people's lives!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 26, 2016 - 08:32pm PT
plain and simple
You don't know what the hell you are talking about


Craig, he's a buffoon, as glib and flip and relentlessly negative as a few others here. Why bother.

Oh and thoroughly erroneous on all the important stuff.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 26, 2016 - 08:37pm PT
Nobody, least of all Reagan, has suggested that all government is bad. Just that in many situations government is the problem, not the solution.

You obviously did not hear him speak the words that defined Republican thinking for a generation.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:04pm PT

Listen to her cackle about the murder of Qaddafi...
She's a murderer, plain and simple.

Didn't Ronald Reagan try to kill Qaddafi in the 80s?
Yes he did, via F14s. In fact Qaddafi's daughter was killed
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:12pm PT
Those pesky details about Reagan...
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:45pm PT
^^^right. bill kinda reminded me of ron tonight :)


man, i really dig F14's!not for what they did, but for they can do)
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 26, 2016 - 09:52pm PT
You obviously did not hear him speak the words that defined Republican thinking for a generation.

Actually I dd. Context means something. But then I had the privilege to meet and work with Reagan. Those words didn't define sh*t. Sorry.

Do you honestly think that Reagan defined Republican thinking about anything for a generation?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 26, 2016 - 10:13pm PT
Kris... Reagan's deregulation theme sounds very republican...Am i wrong..?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 26, 2016 - 10:26pm PT

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BokEvEqiVA&list=PLMKA5kzkfqk18faruyGLVu1YI1-4i2N7P&index=2]

:D
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 27, 2016 - 07:25am PT
Deregulation? Sure. Is that a Republican theme? Yes. I just get frustrated when someone takes that to the extreme, as if any sane person advocates for no regulation or no government.

I have a long list of issues where I cannot stand with the Republicans. But this argument that the centralized Federal government is running amok, that regulation is out of control, is an issue which I think is real. Does that mean that I am against having a government and advocate for zero regulation? No.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 07:47am PT
this argument that the centralized Federal government is running amok, that regulation is out of control, is an issue which I think is real.

Are you taking into account that this is now a country of 340 million and not 34 million or 3.4 million?

More regulation is necessarily the price we have to pay for these (over) population numbers. We simply cannot have it both ways. Basic ecology. Basic politics, too (or it should be).


In 1776, if memory serves, the population of the 13 colonies was 2.5 million. (The size of a large CITY.) Big difference. Big.

(Yes. Verified. 2.5 million max. Imagine that. 2.5 million. Source: Wiki.)


In the end, it is the data sets on health and wellbeing, safety and security, violence, war and homicide, etc... that tell the story... not the day to day social media (much of which as you know is propaganda). And over a time scale of decades - at least as far as the HUMAN animal is concerned - these are trending favorably / positively.

Is the population of our country just right? Is it too high or too low? Could you imagine our population just doubled at 680 million (let alone raised times ten)? with, say, only half the present Federal regulation? Would that be realistic? given our varied human nature?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteen_Colonies

2.4 million people max distributed across 13 states... imagine that.
Imagine the freedom that comes from that. Imagine how unnecessary gov rules and regulations were under THAT condition.
kattz

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:11am PT
I'll vote for Trump, Andrzej.

No need for your laughable propaganda and cowardly liberal agenda fear mongering--I did half of my life in totalitarian regimen (the one that had controlled YOUR country), by the way, USSR -- the only totalitarian and destructive force in the US is the Liberals and they must be stopped. People like you will not take my freedoms away.

Nope, we won't let you take our freedoms away.

Andrzej, you live a sheltered and somewhat privileged life of typical Bay Area liberal.....hahahaha....but luckily even in Bay area, not everyone is brainwashed ninnie from the land ruled by unicorns, pokemons, or whatever rules that fake world you live in.


I see you're not back in Poland.. Why not? It's so liberal now. Oh wait, it's not so good there, after totalitarian regimen had left and, you have to seek decent work in the US.

A few liberated Poles now wash dishes and dig ditches in Europe living in tents soaked by rain. That's what you get, once totalitarian regimen had left. That's what libs get you.
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:15am PT
Nice rant over there on the locked thread, Radical. Welcome back from lurker town.

Seems to be some house-cleaning going on around here is this one next?
kattz

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:18am PT
Be responsible, vote TRUMP!

Save this county.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:29am PT
More regulation is necessarily the price we have to pay for these (over) population numbers. We simply cannot have it both ways. Basic ecology. Basic politics, too (or it should be).

Today we are letting agencies run by unelected officials enact regulations which are the equivalent of law. And these agencies can also decide on how the regulations will be enforced, and we the people have no say in the process. You’re willing to trust these agencies not to act on the basis of cronyism or corruption? To favor one group or cause over another?

I’m of the opinion that regulations imposed by government should be questioned. I would go so far as to say that it is our responsibility as citizens in a Democratic Republic to do so on behalf of ourselves and those who will inherit the nation as we leave it.

But then I’m the guy who drove around with the “Question Authority” sticker on my bumper in 1980.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:36am PT
and we the people have no say in the process.

I'm not so sure this is true.

I’m of the opinion that regulations imposed by government should be questioned. I would go so far as to say that it is our responsibility as citizens in a Democratic Republic to do so on behalf of ourselves and those who will inherit the nation as we leave it.

I agree with this.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:40am PT

Today we are letting agencies run by unelected officials enact regulations which are the equivalent of law. And these agencies can also decide on how the regulations will be enforced, and we the people have no say in the process. You’re willing to trust these agencies not to act on the basis of cronyism or corruption? To favor one group or cause over another?

I’m of the opinion that regulations imposed by government should be questioned. I would go so far as to say that it is our responsibility as citizens in a Democratic Republic to do so on behalf of ourselves and those who will inherit the nation as we leave it.

But then I’m the guy who drove around with the “Question Authority” sticker on my bumper in 1980.

There you have it....
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:40am PT
Look out ..... this one will be locked soon.

Moose... remember not all of us see things the same way that you do.

and we should not...

Remember.... we get a secret ballot.

good one Kris, keep up with the sensible posting.

Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:03am PT
Moose,
The American Conservatives here were raised on BS racist John Wayne Westerns and McCarthyism Propaganda. They have been hiding under their desks since childhood. They are cowardice and ignorance defined.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:08am PT
The centralized federal government is running amok? regulation is out of control?

Good points

good one Kris, keep up with the sensible posting.

These are good points? In the context of 340 million apish hominids? oh please.
Under which system and under whose structure and guidance could do better?

Maybe you'd like to see our national parks under less regulation.
Maybe you'd like to see our banking systems under less regulation.
Maybe you'd like to see our foods and drugs under less regulation.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:14am PT
I overheard a conversation where one guy was saying that ISIS was the biggest threat to the United States. Personally, I don't walk out the door everyday thinking that ISÍS is going to kill me. Should I?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:14am PT
Locked up the other thread, eh? Not surprising. Can't blame CMac & co for trying to keep this site & forum focused on their primary vision.

Multiple political threads detract from that vision. I wonder if the Politipocalypse thread would have remained unlocked if this thread hadn't been started?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:17am PT
They probably locked it because they too got tired of looking at the misspelled thread title.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:27am PT
Hey Kris,
I'm drooling over your article in California Climber Magazine.

The truth is that we need more authority (experts not authoritarianism), more progress, more participatory government, more meritocratic government by the people. It sounds like Social Democracy to me but labels are flawed.
The capitalist ideal favors financial transactions over smart planning and unified vision. So we'll keep heaving and thrutching through economic and social crashes until we find humility and do the important work.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:29am PT
This is as old as the hills, but worth repeating:

"Democracy: Two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

Republic: A Democracy where two hundred wolves and one hundred lambs elect two wolves and one lamb as their representatives to vote on what to have for lunch.

Constitutional Republic: A Republic with a Constitution guaranteeing that lamb is not on the lunch menu. Eventually the Supreme Court rules - five wolves to four lambs - that mutton is not the same as lamb."

Hillary proposes to nominate the fifth wolf to the Court.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:33am PT
Funny...Radical's last post on the other thread rants about how stooooopid these threads are, and how everyone who participates in them is a pathetic tard....

...then he makes a political statement, and posts a link to a Fox News page.

Yeah, that's consistent.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:35am PT
The capitalist ideal favors financial transactions over smart planning and unified vision.

I respectfully disagree. The capitalist ideal is to have the actors affected doing the planning to execute their own vision, rather than centralized bureaucrats doing the planning to suit their vision.

HFCS's argument that more regulation is the price we must pay for more people assumes that the marginal cost of those extra regulations is less than their marginal benefit. Kris's (and my) argument is that this is neither theoretically nor empirically clear. Moreover, by placing as much authority as we have now in the hands of the bureaucrats, we have drastically increased the transactions costs of changing a bad decision. Even if we elected a Republican congress with 70% majorities in the House and Senate, and a Republican presidient, it would take years of litigation to undo the regulations already in place.

John
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:46am PT
"the price we must pay for more people assumes that the marginal cost of those extra regulations is less than their marginal benefit"

that's so silly,
the costs ARE less than the benefits, lol

We have two magnitudes (x100!!!) more people now than just eight generations ago. It would be chaos and bloodletting if we didn't have a comparable regulation as we do today. Where is your ecological sense of these things?

That people could ignore these numbers - and the differences that result or could result from them - is as shallow thinking as it gets.

How often we reference our Founding Fathers, the 2nd Amendment and our country back then. A country of literally 2.4M. Size of S.F. lol

..


A contrary argument could be... Well if government were reduced by 90% say, then population pressures would manifest in other ways, regulatory pressures would come about in other ways, there would probably then be increased quarrels, skirmishes, riots, violence, etc and in the end population numbers would be reduced say 90% (culling) to around 34M, a much more reasonable number for OUR country in accordance with MY values. Is this YOUR solution?
kattz

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:54am PT
"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain"

--enough said.


By the way, time to arrest illegal alien criminals who're allowed to speak at DNC convention, throw them in jail and deport them.

The foul and digusting circus that this convention is only confirms what these people really are: corrupt and immoral.

Hey, DNC have illegals speaking at your convention?
This just cost a few percent for Hillary polls. You can't really keep parading your hatred of the law around like this.
They want to give voting rights to non-citizens? Democratic party transgressions against the law must not go on forever, that's for sure.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:55am PT
Though they are obviously related, I don't know that the need for more regulation is primarily about population growth as it is the unbelievable increase in the complexity of everything in our daily lives.

Our food, the medications & healthcare we receive, the wide variety of interests and actions that impact the environment, our financial system, and on and on and on.....


All of these things are far more complicated in the way that they function than they were 240 years ago. Regulation logically should diversify and expand commensurately,
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:56am PT
USA= awesome rock, comical politics

I can't wait for when Kim Kardashian is in the running.

Trump is so friggin hilarious like buddy up in North Korea funny.
(both have funny hair too)
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:58am PT
Kattz, if you are going to rant about how much smarter you conservatives are, at least try to form a cohesive sentence with reasonable spelling and grammar.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:58am PT
Maybe you'd like to see our national parks under less regulation.
Maybe you'd like to see our banking systems under less regulation.
Maybe you'd like to see our foods and drugs under less regulation.

Do you think Yosemite is well regulated? I'd say it's a fine example of regulation being politicized. Of cronyism.

Bank regulation? Maybe you don't choose to view Fanny and Freddie as regulators. They certainly tilted the playing field to the profit of some and the losses of others.

Food and drugs? FDA just striped the meaning out of the label "Grass Fed". Now you can feed a cow grass for a week or two, then send it too the fed lot and pump it full of corn, hormones and antibiotics and sell it as "grass fed." How about the label "All Natural". And you know of course that Clinton is owned by Monsanto.

How do you think Fed regulators will rule on GMO foods now?

moveon.org/sign/hillary-clinton-its-time

organicconsumers.org/news/video-hilary-clinton-endorses-gmos-solution-focused-crop-biotechnology

My point? There is a big difference between more regulation and smart regulation. And if you don't think the regulators can be and often are corrupt I think you're naive. Who really owns Yosemite?

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:03am PT
apogee, it's not either-or, it's both. Both increasing numbers (one factor) and increasing complexities and powers (one factor) that necessarily demand more regulation, regulatory control (one way or another).

...

So improve the regulations, clean them up. Continue to fight corruption where it exists. But along the way (a) don't ignore basic human nature, you gotta work that into the thinking and management - and (b) don't imagine you can reduce government size and costs (not to zero as you rightly say that's often caricatured) but even by 30 - 50 per cent - it's just not realistic.
WBraun

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:07am PT
Way to go Radical!!!!

Awesome!!!!
John M

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:09am PT
Hopefully the argument will some day become about "wise regulation" rather then more or less regulation. Yes I do believe that its possible for government to create wise regulation. I believe that its rare and requires something that most here don't believe in, so I believe that we will continue to fumble along. We are in quite the pickle.

We need wisdom and vision. I don't see much of that in government or private industry. Government is a reflection of our current state of consciousness. That statement does not speak to individuals as individuals can rise above the general consciousness. Its means that our general over all consciousness is still pretty low.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:10am PT
That's true, HFCS, but ksolem's view is true as well: regulation can be done effectively and efficiently, with less corruption in the process. This isn't zero-sum...but it could work smarter, rather than just throwing a bunch of new, conflicting laws & bureaucracies at the problem.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:10am PT

Jul 27, 2016 - 09:14am PT
I overheard a conversation where one guy was saying that ISIS was the biggest threat to the United States. Personally, I don't walk out the door everyday thinking that ISÍS is going to kill me. Should I?

This.

The problem is that once fear takes over, rational thinking escapes. That's just the way our brains are wired.

I don't think people are downplaying that ISIS is an evil organization doing many evil things, but people should worry a lot more about reckless drivers than ISIS.

Sadly, trump is a following a familiar yet successful strategy for dictators and wanna be dictators to get power: scare the day lights out of the populace, scapegoat others, then say that "I alone" can fix your problems
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:13am PT
Remember this?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

There is not a liberal America and a conservative America—there is the United States of America. There is not a Black America and a White America and Latino America and Asian America—there's the United States of America.

Here we are... after 7 1/2 years of Barack Obama at the helm... more divided than ever. Or at least since the Vietnam era.
John M

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:15am PT
Edward T, so you fully blame Obama for the division? Do you not see the divisiveness in both parties? and in the media..
WBraun

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:17am PT
ISÍS created by CIA, Mossad, Saudia Arabia & supported by Turkey.

Created by western corrupt powers as proxy terrorists to control western corporate interests.

Hillary loons are clueless as always ......
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:17am PT
Yep, the issue of racism is deep in this country, and has existed since its inception 240 years ago. Did you really expect a POTUS to change that in 7 years?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:18am PT
And now trump is encouraging Russia to hack and release Clintons emails:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/democratic-national-convention-obama-biden-kaine-set-to-tout-clinton-as-commander-in-chief/2016/07/27/afc57884-53e8-11e6-bbf5-957ad17b4385_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_trump-1230pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory


In other words, the presidential nominee for the Republican Party is encouraging a foreign adversary to commit espionage on a political opponent.

And his supporters think Hillary is the one who should be "locked up"?!?!?!


Wake up, people, you're empowering a tyrant!
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:20am PT
Wake up, people, you're empowering a tyrant!


So true.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:21am PT
What are these hostile actions toward businesses specifically??????????

And you claim that they are 100% due to Obama's policies?????
and what environmental regulations are causing our economy so much trouble?

Please respond with some back up.
Because these claims have zero bearing in reality

I have neither the space nor the time - and the readers of this thread have no interest - in a comprehensive catalog of this administration's hostile actions toward business, so I'll just catalog a few of the many examples. As a preface, however, most of these actions came as a result of appointments Obama made to the various regulatory agencies that run our lives:

Labor: Threatening Boeing with a federal lawsuit if it chose to produce a new aircraft in a right-to-work state, Changing the definiion of exempt employees, NLRB purporting to act with illegal recess appointments, enactment of the "ambush election rule," and expanding many decades of precedent in areas such as the joint employment rule;

Environmental: Holding the Keystone pipeline hostage for six years before denying the permit, Imposing the Clean Power Plan without consideration of costs compared with benefits, EPA's illegal lobbying of citizen input on water rules, including, but not limited to, anti-farmer billboards, a general history of imposing rules with no consideration of marginal costs and benefit;

Financial: Dodd-Frank and CFPB rules and regulations, including but not limited to provisions in Reg. X that prohibit starting the foreclosure process until borrowers are more than 120 days delinquent (to those unfamiliar with foreclosure law, in California it takes about five months after you start the foreclosure process to complete it), Using Operation Choke Point to force lawful activity out of business, Extorting financial institutions for alleged wrongs against depositors and investors, and using the proceeds to fund anti-business groups rather than to provide relief to the parties allegedly wronged;

Legal: Stonewalling actions by groups seeking information to question regulations or actions with which they disagree (see, e.g., Norcal Tea Party Patriots v. IRS (6th Cir., 2016)) for a description of the general M.O.), Suing for-profit institutions for actions that it ignores if done by non-profit institutions, Enacting and defending policies such as the "anti-inversion rules" without legislative authority, while ignoring the tax rates that cause those inversions, and engaging in the extortion mentioned in the financial, labor and environmental sections, above.

In each of these areas, this administration has acted as if costs businesses incur don't matter, and in a way that imposes the same costs, regardless of scale, on all businesses. This has effectively hit small, independent business the hardest.

Again, this is merely the tip of the tip of the iceberg. This administration's actions would lead an objective observer to conclude that the administration wants to destroy private business. The lack of investment and the consequent anemic recovery stem directly from actions such as these, and this administration bears full responsbility for them.

John
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:26am PT
"Moreover, by placing as much authority as we have now in the hands of the bureaucrats, we have drastically increased the transactions costs of changing a bad decision. Even if we elected a Republican congress with 70% majorities in the House and Senate, and a Republican presidient, it would take years of litigation to undo the regulations already in place."

Moreover, these additional points, put forth above (last page), are just as silly. Standard Republican mindset, it is.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 27, 2016 - 10:38am PT
So improve the regulations, clean them up. Continue to fight corruption where it exists. But along the way (a) don't ignore basic human nature, you gotta work that into the thinking and management - and (b) don't imagine you can reduce government size and expenditures (not by zero as you rightly say) but even by 30 - 50 per cent - it's just not realistic.

I knew we'd find some common ground. But I'll continue to raise my suspicion of government spending. I can't sign on to the idea that more spending = more effective government. Of course some things cost lots of $, but how the gov spends our tax money is both wasteful and corrupt in many ways.

The solar power industry is a suitable example. The gov provides tax incentives and subsidies to companies which install large solar farms in the desert. I've done some reading on these projects, and it appears that dust and sand gathering on the panels (where there is no water to clean them), cuts their efficiency. And experts (I am not one) seem to agree that the best use of solar power is at or near where it is used. But the gov is spending our money on big projects which are inefficient. Why?

IMO if we can get gov to eliminate wasteful, stupid, and corrupt spending we'll be a big step toward a less intrusive and smaller (and smarter) government. How do we do it? For starters enact a rule requiring that bills passed by Congress can only contain legislation which is relevant to the actual content of the bill. A huge amount of wasteful (pork) spending gets through without public scrutiny in the form of riders.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jul 27, 2016 - 11:08am PT
JEleazarian - Excellent post.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 27, 2016 - 11:21am PT
Nice post about the current admin going after small business.

Yes obama has not been much of a worker his entire life..

The big gross problem are lawers using the law to their money pocket advantage..
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 27, 2016 - 11:32am PT
ISÍS created by CIA, Mossad, Saudia Arabia & supported by Turkey.

Ask yourself, why hasn't israel been attacked by ISIS?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 11:33am PT
I knew we'd find some common ground...

Yes, me too. Case in point: I agree with all those points.

Thanks for the exchange. Fun!



Ps, Perhaps as you gathered, I meant to type "to zero" and not "by zero"

The solar power industry is a suitable example...


Pps, I'd just add (lastly) we can't expect gov (those bureaucrats, those humans) to always bat 1000. Some r & d, some experimenting (eg, "pilot programs" that don't always work out that adversaries - as a matter of course, it's to be expected - will ridicule) has its place. That's also how we get ahead. Keep what works, discard (and ridicule) what doesn't.
John M

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 11:48am PT
wow Radical. Thats probably one of the ugliest things that I have seen you post.

Whats going on with you?

And I am in no way saying that liberals do not have problems. I most definitely believe that they do, but that article is ugly and filled with misdirected partial truths.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 11:50am PT
I used to think trump was mean, narcissistic, vindictive, and ignorant.

With his recent revisiting of his old claims about Cruz's dad being a Lee Harvey Oswald co-conspirator (why the fook did he bring that up?!?!) and his encouragement of Russia to hack state department emails so he can use it for political gains, I think for the first time in generations a major political party has nominated who is seriously nuts.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:04pm PT
Nuts or calculating?

Trump (like many Republicans) regularly use the strategy of 'so...people are saying <insert whacknut conspiracy>...I'm not saying this, but people are saying this...you should decide for yourself...I'm just sayin'....'

The whacknut conspiracy is obviously nuts, but the strategy is consciously, coldly calculating.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:12pm PT
Deregulation? Sure. Is that a Republican theme? Yes. I just get frustrated when someone takes that to the extreme, as if any sane person advocates for no regulation or no government.

I have a long list of issues where I cannot stand with the Republicans. But this argument that the centralized Federal government is running amok, that regulation is out of control, is an issue which I think is real. Does that mean that I am against having a government and advocate for zero regulation? No.

Given how often Reagan's name gets invoked (mentioned just doesn't seem right), for instance in primary debates, it seems Reagan still has defined most Republicans.

In a closed meeting Reagan may have agreed that some regulation was needed, just as you have. But publicly he beat the drum that government was the problem. And too many R primary voters take the attitude that getting rid of regulation is always a good thing. (And unfortunately, most Republican politicians fear losing their primary more than the general).

However, my post that was referenced, was actually pushing back that the deregulation and resulting financial crisis was a bi-partisan affair. And no it wasn't. Does Big Wall Street money influence Democrats also, sure. But it was Republicans that laid the groundwork that getting rid of regulation is a good thing.

For instance:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/4/29/861900/-

Glass-Steagall was designed to prevent exactly the kind of collaboration that brought us the Goldman-Sachs fraud. Glass-Steagall was repealed in 1999 by a Republican-controlled Congress who pushed for the passage of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley bill. Gramm-Leach-Bliley was named after its three sponsors, all of them Republicans: Congressmen Phil Gramm (R-Texas), Jim Leach (R-Iowa) and Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. (R-Virginia). The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act tore down the regulatory framework that would have helped protect against the sub-prime mortgage bubble and the speculation that led to a collapse of the market where speculators traded the "derivative" securities that were created from those sub-prime mortgages.
matlinb

Trad climber
Fort Collins, CO
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:15pm PT
JEleazarian

I only looked at the first of your allegations of business hostile actions by the current administration:
Labor: Threatening Boeing with a federal lawsuit if it chose to produce a new aircraft in a right-to-work state

If I read things correctly, Boeing CEO Jim Albaugh told a reporter - on video - that the reason for locating the 787 Dreamliner assembly line to South Carolina was, "The overriding factor was not the business climate. And it was not the wages we are paying today. It was that we can't afford to have a work stoppage every three years." The Union claimed that was retaliation for past strikes.

The NLRB brought the case before a NLRB administrative law judge, but the case was dropped before a judgement on the request of the union - which had come to an agreement with Boeing.

www.americanbar.org


nlrb material

I would encourage people to look at the above two urls and make up their own mind if this was hostile, Personally, I think it was a balanced approach.

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:17pm PT
This is as old as the hills, but worth repeating:

"Democracy: Two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

Republic: A Democracy where two hundred wolves and one hundred lambs elect two wolves and one lamb as their representatives to vote on what to have for lunch.

Constitutional Republic: A Republic with a Constitution guaranteeing that lamb is not on the lunch menu. Eventually the Supreme Court rules - five wolves to four lambs - that mutton is not the same as lamb."

Hillary proposes to nominate the fifth wolf to the Court.


The Constitution is explicitly designed to protect the minority against the majority. A majority of voters can't prevent Muslims from building a mosque. A majority can't prohibit guns. A majority can't prevent gays from getting married.

People generally seem to think the Court is following the Constitution when the decisions match their politics. Not surprisingly. But I sure don't see where the liberal justices are any more wolflike than the conservatives.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:21pm PT
The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act tore down the regulatory framework that would have helped protect against the sub-prime mortgage bubble and the speculation that led to a collapse of the market where speculators traded the "derivative" securities that were created from those sub-prime mortgages.

I've seen that article of liberal faith posted innumerable times since 2006, but I have yet to read a cogent explanation of how the repeal of Glass-Steagall caused the meltdown of the subprime market.

From my perspective as an econometrician and an attorney limiting his practice to commercial law, secured lending and debtor-creditor relations, the subprime market collapsed when the unsustainable housing price run-up ran into a lack of buyers able and willing to pay the exaggerated price of housing. The derivative market enabled some entities to place very risky bets, but nothing in the repeal of G-S forced the taxpayers to cover those bets.

And DMT, I agree that the DNC and Clinton brought Trump's Russia barb on their own heads, but I still can't revel in the substance. If foreign government operatives successfully hacked Clinton's email server, the damage to the US national interest should frighten us. If for no other reason than that, I hope any hack didn't happen, even though I fear it did.

All of this, of course, shows the wisdom in electing a climber president. Vote Johnson/Weld!

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:26pm PT
People generally seem to think the Court is following the Constitution when the decisions match their politics. Not surprisingly. But I sure don't see where the liberal justices are any more wolflike than the conservatives.

When it comes to the Bill of Rights, the liberals have no problem interpreting "Congress shall make no law" to mean "Congress shall make no law that we dislike." They similarly have no problem interpreting "The right of the people shall not be abridged" to mean "The right of the people shall not be abridged unless we want to."

I am unaware of a similar trend by the so-called conservative justices.

John
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
obesity on parade and chairs with large ass prints
Cragman

Oh, wait, wait, I know this one! It's about a woman, right? Did this come straight from the Trump campaign? If not, kudos on role modeling his style!

But Michelle rocked it in her delivery. Her content .... not so much.
Cragman

Right, all her weak sauce about being good role models for our children ... pshaw!! But, hey, she looked good saying it! No fat butt there, huh?

Trump is a perfect role model for some of us.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:41pm PT
"ISÍS created by CIA, Mossad, Saudia Arabia & supported by Turkey.
Created by western corrupt powers as proxy terrorists to control western corporate interests."

No, the CIA tried to stop the creation of ISIS. Dick Cheney and his political appointees personally intervened to save Al Zarqawi in order to promote the neocon claim that there were terrorists in IRAQ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musab_al-Zarqawi#Pre-war_assassination_opportunities
Pre-war assassination opportunities

According to NBC News, the Pentagon had pushed to "take out" Zarqawi's operation at least three times prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, but had been vetoed by the National Security Council.[116] The NSC reportedly made its decision in an effort to convince other countries to join the U.S. in a coalition against Iraq. "People were more obsessed with developing the coalition to overthrow Saddam than to execute the president’s policy of pre-emption against terrorists," said former National Security Council member Roger Cressey.[117]

In May 2006, former CIA official Michael Scheuer, who headed the CIA's bin Laden unit for six years before resigning in 2004, corroborated this. Paraphrasing his remarks, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation stated Scheuer claimed, "the United States deliberately turned down several opportunities to kill terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in the lead-up to the Iraq war." ABC added, "a plan to destroy Zarqawi's training camp in Kurdistan was abandoned for diplomatic reasons." Scheuer explained, "the reasons the intelligence service got for not shooting Zarqawi was simply that the President and the National Security Council decided it was more important not to give the Europeans the impression we were gunslingers" in an effort to win support for ousting Saddam Hussein.[118]

This claim was also corroborated by CENTCOM's Deputy Commander, Lieutenant General Michael DeLong, in an interview with PBS on February 14, 2006. DeLong, however, claims that the reasons for abandoning the opportunity to take out Zarqawi's camp was that the Pentagon feared that an attack would contaminate the area with chemical weapon materials: "We almost took them out three months before the Iraq war started. We almost took that thing, but we were so concerned that the chemical cloud from there could devastate the region that we chose to take them by land rather than by smart weapons."[119]

In his 2010 memoir Decision Points, President Bush recounted: "The question was whether to bomb the poisons lab in the summer of 2002. We held a series of NSC meetings on that topic... Colin [Powell] and Condi [Condoleezza Rice] felt a strike on the lab would create an international firestorm and disrupt our efforts to build a coalition to confront Saddam... I decided to continue on the diplomatic track."[120]

[there was no diplomatic track. That was a fake show leading up to the invasion]


http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2836632&msg=2840089#msg2840089
dirtbag

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
I think the hacking thing is funny, myself. Ms. Clinton brought that sh#t on herself and she has no one to blame but the mirror.

DNC got hacked? Stupid f*#kers. Like big banks, credit card companies and the Target Corp., perhaps they'll learn a lesson?

And these people want to run a country???




Well anyone is prone to hacking. So I'm not quite ready to play the stupid f*#kers shoulda known better card.

I'm not going to defend Schultz's conduct, for that matter.


But when you have a presidential candidate musing that he'd wish Russia would hack state department emails so he can get a leg up in his campaign, we have a problem.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:50pm PT
Good to have you back Riley.

I rarely post on these politard threads, but the combination of you being back, and something that happened in my neighborhood last night is pushing me to post today.

You said
Trump is the same Democrat he has always been.

Which may or may not be true. You've also said he seems like a decent guy who's been painted as horrible by the press and by his political rivals.

But the same cannot be said about some of his supporters. Take a look at the note below, left on the doorstep of a mixed-race family in my neighborhood last night. Especially note the last line.

If I remember my supertopo history, you, too, are in a mixed-race marriage (as am I) and have children. How would you like to find that note on your doorstep?

And to come back to Trump himself: If he's the decent guy you believe him to be, why hasn't he come down hard on supporters like this one? He seems to tacitly encourage this kind of behavior.

Anyway, here's the message that one trump supporter left for my neighbor (who passed it on to the police and the local news media)...



Norton

Social climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:53pm PT
"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters,"

remarkably true, Donald!
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:53pm PT
Hey August - The final bill of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act was passed by the Senate 90–8 and by the House 362–57. Let's quit pretending the Democrats weren't on board.

Ghost - That's disgusting. Glad to hear your neighbors passed to on to the police and media.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 12:55pm PT
"You've also said he seems like a decent guy who's been painted as horrible by the press and by his political rivals."


<Insert Trump disability mocking image>


Poor, poor 'Democrat' Trump.

What a bunch unmitigated, head-up-the-a*#, complete detachment from reality bullsh#t.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 01:07pm PT
Poll: Clinton extends lead over Trump


(CNN)Hillary Clinton leads Donald Trump by six points, 44% to 38%, in a Fox News poll of registered voters released Wednesday, marking an uptick from similar polls released in May and June.

CNN's Poll of Polls -- an average of results for the five most recent publicly released national polls that meet CNN's standards for publication -- has Clinton leading Trump 46% to 40%.

Her lead among women in this latest round -- 51% to 32% -- outpaces Trump's with men, where his edge has dwindled to 10 points, 46% to 36%.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 27, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
Wow, Ghost. Whoever wrote and whoever left that note certainly earned our contempt.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 01:22pm PT
Yes, it is...and anyone who plans on voting for Trump is implicitly in alignment with those sentiments.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 27, 2016 - 01:43pm PT
Since Reagan's comment about government being the problem comes up here often, let's look at the context. Agree or not with what he says, those words are referring to a specific situation, and so to interpret them as meaning government is the entire problem, or that all government is bad is off the mark. From his 1st inaugural address...

"The economic ills we suffer have come upon us over several decades. They will not go away in days, weeks, or months, but they will go away. They will go away because we as Americans have the capacity now, as we've had in the past, to do whatever needs to be done to preserve this last and greatest bastion of freedom.

In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. From time to time we've been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule, that government by an elite group is superior to government for, by, and of the people. Well, if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? All of us together, in and out of government, must bear the burden. The solutions we seek must be equitable, with no one group singled out to pay a higher price."
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 27, 2016 - 02:01pm PT
Nothing John E posted today passes the straight Face Test

This administration's actions would lead an objective observer to conclude that the administration wants to destroy private business.

This is a Joke right?

Obama wants to DESTROY private Businesses!!
and yet, private businesses are doing better than ever!

John, did Bush have any involvement in these business busting regulations?
or was it Obama alone?

and you use the Keystone Pipeline for your example of environmental over reach?
what about the people that did NOT want to Sell their land?
Just take it by imminent domain?
You know it would create only about 50 jobs, and the Koch Brothers will make many more billions to pocket

This is just the tip of the Iceberg on the BS of your post.

None of it has Hurt our economy or caused jobs to be lost, now has it?

all it has done has made it a little more difficult for some businesses,

so your premise that it's destroying private businesses or hurting the economy is on the hysterical side of reality.

Why hasn't the Economy rebounded?
Because the Republican Congress doesn't want to help the economy rebound, they have obstructed Every Single bill that would help the economy

The Republican own this crappy economy, they created it, they maintain it, stop trying to blame Obama, we see through your BS.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 27, 2016 - 02:10pm PT
http://prntly.com/2016/07/27/breaking-dems-forced-to-hire-rent-a-crowds-to-fill-bernie-delegate-dnc-seats/

2000 empty seats last night so they better pay to have the room filled with joy.. so funny..


Norton

Social climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 02:28pm PT
The failure of the economy to quickly recover from the 07 Recession is clearly due to lack of leadership from Obama.

If only he would have lead better, unemployment would be down to 4% by now.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 27, 2016 - 02:39pm PT
If Obama would have appointed regulators with knowledge of the effect of their actions on employment, and directed them to use that knowledge, the labor participation rate would not have dropped so precipitously, and employment would have risen (cf. reference to unemployment falling) much faster.

The objections to the bad regulations were well-known, and communicated clearly to the regulators before enactment of the regulations. They didn't care. Congress has attempted to overrule them now that Harry Reid no longer controls the Senate, but Obama has vetoed those attempts. Responsibility for the economic anemia belongs to the Democrats.

So we're stuck with an election that promises a third term of economic incompetence, or a first term of an egomaniacal narcissist who purports to be our savior. The choice is clear. Johnson/Weld!

John
Norton

Social climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 02:52pm PT
The Obama Administration has been a total failure in so many ways.

Foreign policy in particular, it is a fact that Obama created ISIS.

He has long been suspected of being a Muslim sympathizer.

He knowingly and intentionally allowed ISIS to develop when he stupidly "honored" President Bush's agreement with Iraq to withdraw our troops.

By doing so he left the Iraqi government defenseless and allowed the Islamic State to flourish in Iraq and Syria, he should have refused to honor the troop agreement but didn't because he wanted ISIS to be created and grow strongly.

There is also compelling information that Obama signed into law the most restrictive and job killing regulations on US businesses of any President in history. He knew what he was doing and signed all kinds of Executive Orders hoping to kill the US economy.

He has been the single worst President in history, got that Libtards?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 27, 2016 - 02:54pm PT
I don't normally post columns, but this one needs a wider circulation.

The Democrats’ well-deserved WikiLeaks blowback

By Marc A. Thiessen July 27 at 12:50 PM

Over at the CIA and the National Security Agency headquarters, they must be really enjoying watching Democrats in Philadelphia squirm over WikiLeaks’s exposure of tens of thousands of internal Democratic Party emails. There’s a word for what is happening in the intelligence community:

Blowback.

Throughout the entirety of the Obama administration, nothing was done as WikiLeaks damaged our national security with its serial leaks of highly classified intelligence documents.

When in 2010 WikiLeaks released more than 76,000 secret intelligence documents — exposing “the identities of at least 100 Afghans who were informing on the Taliban, including the names of their villages, family members, the Taliban commanders on whom they were informing, and even GPS coordinates where they could be found,” as I wrote in The Post — nothing was done.

When in 2011 WikiLeaks released a trove of classified documents it dubbed the “Gitmo Files” in 2011 — including secret details about the CIA’s enhanced interrogation program – nothing was done.

When that same year WikiLeaks unleashed what founder Julian Assange called a “thermonuclear device” — its full, unredacted archive of more than a quarter-million secret U.S. diplomatic cables — nothing was done.

When in 2014 WikiLeaks released classified CIA documents exposing how CIA operatives maintain cover while traveling through airports — including guidance on how to survive secondary screening — nothing was done.

When in 2015 WikiLeaks released documents revealing that the U.S. government was spying on its allies, including listening in on the phone calls of three French presidents — nothing was done.

When in 2016 WikiLeaks published secret details of European Union military operations to intercept refugee boats traveling to Europe from the regions along the Libyan coast infested with terrorists from the Islamic State, nothing was done.

When in 2016 WikiLeaks exposed top-secret documents describing NSA intercepts of foreign government communications — including a private climate-change strategy meeting between United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Berlin — nothing was done.

But WikiLeaks has finally crossed a “red line” (pun intended) that has earned it the Democrats’ outrage. Instead of targeting the CIA or the NSA, WikiLeaks has gone after an organization Democrats actually care about — the Democratic National Committee.

WikiLeaks has released tens of thousands of emails showing that, while presenting itself as an impartial arbiter during the primaries, the DNC was, in fact, working overtime on Hillary Clinton’s behalf to undermine Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.). In one leaked email, DNC officials said they planned to expose Sanders as an atheist with Baptist voters in Kentucky and West Virginia. Others showed DNC staffers mocking Sanders supporters as “Bernie Bros” and plotting how to spin the narrative of his failure. Others reveal that the DNC and the Hillary Victory Fund apparently channeled money through state Democratic parties, perhaps in an effort to avoid contribution limits to her campaign. Other leaks include spreadsheets that appeared to match Democratic donors and fundraisers with appointments to federal boards and commissions once Clinton was elected. Still others show DNC staffers calling their donors “clowns” and promising to have one “sitting in the [s-----est] corner I can find” at a DNC event. The convention in Philadelphia has been roiled by the revelations, which caused Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Fla.) to step down as chair.

Democrats have no one to blame but themselves for this debacle. As I pointed out in The Post on August 2010, there were many steps the Obama administration could have taken to stop WikiLeaks. It could have indicted Assange and his fellow WikiLeaks staffers and made clear that the United States will not tolerate any country — particularly NATO allies — providing them with a haven. They could have sought their extradition and — if the countries where they were hiding refused to cooperate — used existing Justice Department authorities to arrest them anywhere in the world, with or without those countries’ consent. They could have used the assets of U.S. Cyber Command to carry out cyberattacks on WikiLeaks servers to disrupt its ability to disseminate classified information that puts lives at risk.

But it appears that the administration has done none of these things. In 2013, The Post reported that “The Justice Department has all but concluded it will not bring charges against WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange for publishing classified documents because government lawyers said they could not do so without also prosecuting U.S. news organizations and journalists . . . unless he is implicated in criminal activity other than releasing online top-secret military and diplomatic documents.” Seriously?

As for using our nation’s offensive cyber capabilities to disrupt WikiLeaks’s ability to disseminate classified information, that clearly has not happened. To this day, WikiLeaks’s entire archive of stolen classified documents remains available on its website for anyone to read.

Now Democrats are paying the price for Obama’s inaction. And WikiLeaks promises there is more to come. In an interview with CNN this week, Assange said he might soon release “a lot more material.” That should have Democrats terrified.

Apparently, exposing intelligence sources and methods has not mattered enough for the Obama administration to do something about WikiLeaks. Maybe saving Hillary Clinton from further embarrassment, or worse, will finally spur them to action.

John
John M

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 03:14pm PT
I'm guessing you weren't as worried about ugliness when 7 cops were killed in Dallas or there were 7 terrorist attacks in Europe in the last week??

Riley.. get some sleep. The last time you got this nuts you weren't getting enough sleep. You don't know jack sh#t about me or what ugliness that I have had to deal with. Your ignorance is showing.

........


John E.. over the last 30 years the House of Representatives has been controlled by Democrats for only 6 years. Please explain how in that time it was only Democrats that fooked up this country and created laws that did not help businesses. Just when I think that you are getting some wisdom, you make some dumbass statements. Ugh..
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 27, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
Did Klimmer move to Texas?

Comparing Riley to Klimmer is... I don't think there's even a word for that in the English language.
John M

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 03:22pm PT
Riley just gets nuts when he is overworked/over stressed/ not getting sleep and not climbing enough. going for a third degree is probably contributing to that. Normally he is a pretty decent guy. Plus he lives in Texas. That can drive anyone around that bend.
WBraun

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
LOL

Radical for POTUS !!!!!!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 27, 2016 - 03:36pm PT
Now Democrats are paying the price for Obama’s inaction. And WikiLeaks promises there is more to come. In an interview with CNN this week, Assange said he might soon release “a lot more material.” That should have Democrats terrified.

Apparently, exposing intelligence sources and methods has not mattered enough for the Obama administration to do something about WikiLeaks. Maybe saving Hillary Clinton from further embarrassment, or worse, will finally spur them to action.

Sadly, if the American people didn't react - AT ALL - to the revelations of Citizen 4. What makes you think any further release of supposedly "damning" information will matter going forward?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 27, 2016 - 04:02pm PT
“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” Mr. Trump said, staring directly into the cameras during a news conference. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”

You do that for me and I will award you with all of EU especially Ukraine, take down NATO and anything else you want. Thank me and my great campaign dictator manager Paul Manafort for a start.

Manafort fu%ked up the elections before so we will make sure it goes in your favor again. We [if I am elected with your blessing Vladimer] will leave Ukraine the day I take office plus get rid of our and the UK detachment of troops that are training there now that way you have easy access to all the states, we will even leave all the weapons, equipment and new high tech toys for your use.

Your good buddy Donald.
c wilmot

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 04:19pm PT
The us supported an illegal coup in Ukraine and called rhose who supported the democratically elected president "separatists". It has since been described by us diplomats as a "kleptocracy" according to wiki leaks.
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Jul 27, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jul 27, 2016 - 05:02pm PT
Isis started in Syria as a result of Arab spring policy, Norton.
And spread to the weakened government of Iraq and the absent government and failed state of Libia.
And the JV team is now attacking places all over the world everyday .
And still making millons of dollars a day.
I don't know if Obama is a Muslim in his heart but there is no question he has great sympathy for this horrible ideology

That is one confused statement. Nice troll, though!
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jul 27, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
Not half bad Riley. Telling it like it is to these hopeless 'progressive' freaks. Now do you still believe in all the man made climate scam b.s.?
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jul 27, 2016 - 05:34pm PT
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. From time to time we've been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule, that government by an elite group is superior to government for, by, and of the people. Well, if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? All of us together, in and out of government, must bear the burden. The solutions we seek must be equitable, with no one group singled out to pay a higher price."

So, Kris, why do right wing politicians, as well, always leave out the rest of the statement?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 27, 2016 - 05:35pm PT
You are a good man ,Moose.


[just read this page....lol]

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 27, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
The trump supporters just don't get it.
Ninety-five percent of what he proposes will never get done.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 27, 2016 - 06:01pm PT
Oh yea!
we have a new/old right wing wacko that will shut down this thread in no time.
Nothing better than a Thread Lock troll, they troll every thread they want locked down so they can shut down our civil discussion

He's a Radical Big Wall Climber from Texas!!, he's very Rad!!, and he knows everything, and that everything = libtards have caused all his pussy chaffing, and he really hates them for it.
Werner/Trump approve this right winger know nothing with 2 thumbs Up!!

According to him, all scientific investigations into politics and truth in the media is WRONG

Only Fox News and other far right wing media outlets are the moderates, the left wing has gone off the rails and are worse than Stalin!!!

I hope I got his message correctly.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jul 27, 2016 - 06:40pm PT
As the owner and founder of a small, Incorporated business, I have to say the Bush years sucked and the Obama years have been quite fruitful.

Which leads me to believe that many of the screamers on the fringe that claim Obama has waged war on small business are either poor businessmen or collect a paycheck.

Radical- You're a Barney!!!


High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
Thank you, Michael Bloomberg!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 27, 2016 - 06:48pm PT
Bush declared that Stem Cell research was immoral, hence he made it Illegal!!

All the medical research into stem cells had to be halted, and loop holes had to be found that allowed for private research to go on.

Research into a new scientific medical breakthrough that could save millions of lives!, all shut down by BUSH because he thought it was immoral. I'm sure he had pressure from the far right wingers, just like Trump.

Regulations founded on Bible interpretations, that is what the Republicans have shoved down the throats of Americans
Birth Control, abortion, family, sexual identity, race, mental capability, education, science, environmental protections, and freedom are all under attack by Conservatives and Republican Leaders

What else have conservatives given us?
Slavery, yes
freedom, No.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
Hey Donald...where's your tax returns?

Be responsible and cough 'em up...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 07:38pm PT
Kaine did a great job. When a non-shit talking guy steps forward and actually calls out an as#@&%e, it's always a great time.
F

climber
away from the ground
Jul 27, 2016 - 07:39pm PT
+1 Contractor
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jul 27, 2016 - 07:40pm PT
What else have conservatives given us?
Slavery, yes

Dayum Craig. That's just plain ignorant.

Perhaps you should stick to whining about trolls.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 07:45pm PT
Cosmic, pyro...does it mean anything to you that Trump has refused to release his tax returns?

Something that every other POTUS candidate has done...including Reagan?
kattz

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 07:48pm PT
Tried Wikileaks searcheable DNC leak database -- pretty good...shows what slime they're. Hope this pond scum gets sued to the last dime.
Good luck with polls.

On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 7:09 AM -0700, "Freundlich, Christina" wrote: Mark and Luis - digital created a fake craigslist jobs post for women who want to apply to jobs one of Trump's organizations. This will be a microsite and we still need to send it to Perkins. Since we will be pitching this, need your approval please.
Thanks

Multiple Positions (NYC area)

Seeking staff members for multiple positions in a large, New York-based corporation known for its real estate investments, fake universities, steaks, and wine. The boss has very strict standards for female employees, ranging from the women who take lunch orders (must be hot) to the women who oversee multi-million dollar construction projects (must maintain hotness demonstrated at time of hiring).

Title: Honey Bunch (that's what the boss will call you) Job requirements:

* No gaining weight on the job (we'll take some "before" pictures when you start to use later as evidence) * Must be open to public humiliation and open-press workouts if you do gain weight on the job
* A willingness to evaluate other women's hotness for the boss' satisfaction is a plus
* Should be proficient in lying about age if the boss thinks you're too old Working mothers not preferred (the boss finds pumping breast milk disgusting, and worries they're too focused on their children).

About us:
We're proud to maintain a "fun" and "friendly work environment, where the boss is always available to meet with his employees. Like it or not, he may greet you with a kiss on the lips or grope you under the meeting table. Interested applicants should send resume, cover letter, and headshot to jobs@trump.com

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:10pm PT
Katz,

Get out of here. Are you serious you found that on the wikil stuff?

That's insane.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:13pm PT
" Don't boo. Vote."

Word.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:16pm PT
shouldn't be long now
til they lock it down

Lincoln was a liberal through and through, the Democrats were the Conservative Party then, the Conservatives fought to keep slavery.
They were the Southern Plantation Owners, right wingers then, right winger conservatives NOW.

Teddy, Eisenhower, Jesus, all great Liberals from the educated liberal class
their greatest fights were against right wingers/dictators/con men

How many times to we have to review these very important FACTS
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:18pm PT
As long as it takes for you to get it, apparently.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:19pm PT
Every time your lying lips move old craigster
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:20pm PT
Esco, rick, does it mean anything to you that Trump refuses to release his taxes?

Something that every POTUS candidate has done, including Reagan?


Edit: It means nothing to you, potatohead? What if Hillary had said no?
kattz

climber
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:20pm PT
Yep. Google WikiLeaks Search the DNC email database...

https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/

Put "craigslist fake" into the search box.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:22pm PT
the 1952 electoral map doesn't lie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1952

apparently you guys like the lie better

The blue were the democrats, see where they lived, notice that the maps are basically reversed now.
So if you can use your brain, it means that the racist KKK southern states were Blue Democrats back in 1952.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:34pm PT
How about this
I wish the Democrats now had this platform now, it's like Bernie's on steroids!

1956 Republican Platform
snopes verified as authentic

http://www.snopes.com/politics/politicians/1956.asp

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 27, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
Obama hits it out of the park...again.

Thank you for everything you've done for us, President Obama. You will be irreplaceable.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:10pm PT
Who brought us NEPA and the clean water act? Partisan minds suck.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
Trump is True American Patriot.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:29pm PT
Moose i only watched the VP..
Had some work to do..
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
Trump = Con-man

Vote for Trump in the next 30 seconds and he will give a second Putin approved reach around with every vote.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:36pm PT
Fryloon!
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:38pm PT
Holy crap PotatoHead, that's fuked up dude. In light of that garbage, OP- I'd nuke it...
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:53pm PT
You fill your sock up yet Apogee?

#SuperTopoObamaBukkake

lol...

It is strange with the bizarre hero-worship of these puppets (on either imaginary 'side').



Coach37

Social climber
Philly
Jul 27, 2016 - 09:59pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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