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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 23, 2016 - 06:52pm PT
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Like most Americans, I'm very tired of the status quo.
Most Americans have no idea how the rest of the world lives, outside of tourist destinations. They don't know how good we have it. America IS great.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 23, 2016 - 06:53pm PT
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Tim Kaine this morning still whining about Trump saying McCain is not a hero?
OMFG! is that all they got?
This matters a great deal to the military and to veterans. I would think it would matter a lot to the parent of a Marine, too.
It should matter to all Americans.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Jul 23, 2016 - 07:06pm PT
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I will not call anyone names,he just does not stand a chance.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jul 23, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
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The Republican Party has worked hard since Obama was elected in 2008 to block every constructive measure he put forward to help America recover from the Great-Recession, that was caused by their policies.
The Republican Party has worked hard the last four years to convince Americans that Hillary Clinton is a negligent politician at best & more likely an evil criminal. There is no proven evidence of that, and the incidents are trivial, when compared to other presidential blunders.
For the last eight years, the Republican Party has also been trying to convince us that we are in harsh economic times, horribly-threatened by external enemies, and suffering terribly from violent illegal emigrants.
During their whole campaign of hatred, they have also pursued closet racism to keep their racist core-supporters committed to the Republican agenda.
Now the Republicans have a dysfunctional presidential candidate that perfectly reflects all they have tried to make Americans believe for the last 8 years. I’m charmed that a number of establishment Republicans can’t bring themselves to support Trump, even though they deserve him for what they have tried to do to America.
I know that those folks here, who have drank-deeply of the tainted Republican Kool-aid, are not going to change their minds.
I’m just very-grateful, that it appears there are more than enough voting Americans to elect Hillary president.
(Yes! I’m not in love with Hillary & her policies either, but she & her policies are so much better than the alternative.)
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jul 23, 2016 - 07:40pm PT
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I thought this was going to be a thread about using birth control, or making sure your campfire was out and cold before striking camp.
So, you can imagine my disappointment.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 23, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
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American stoopid politics.
This criminal is not as bad as the other criminal.
Just vote for the lesser criminal.
Stoopidest logic of stupid Americans.
Throw out all the criminals.
You can't do it because you're all just criminals killing everything alive on the planet and making it sterile.
And then you get criminals and that's your karmic reaction ......
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Jul 23, 2016 - 08:51pm PT
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Werner ,may I send you some weed......lol
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 23, 2016 - 09:38pm PT
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When it comes to McCain it doesn't matter to this American.
One can certainly find fault with McCain, however, the insult was much broader than McCain, it pointedly was directed towards ANY service person who was a POW.
I cannot agree with his politics, but I applaud McCain as a real American hero----not for what he said, but for what he endured (part of which was voluntary), so as to not leave his comrades behind.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 23, 2016 - 09:41pm PT
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One can certainly find fault with McCain, however, the insult was much broader than McCain, it pointedly was directed towards ANY service person who was a POW.
Of course.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jul 23, 2016 - 09:52pm PT
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but you can no longer call yourself a patriotic American if you still vote for Trump
According to some guy on a rock climbing website...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 23, 2016 - 10:05pm PT
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"According to some guy on a rock climbing website..."
Who is this guy, I'd climb with him!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 23, 2016 - 11:49pm PT
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Dean, I can't imagine you, as a man of good faith and principle, being able to stand behind a man like Trump. Hillary or no Hillary.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jul 24, 2016 - 06:29am PT
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What do you want?
Do you want someone who will promote your interests? Then you want a representative who will serve you and your community’s interests. You want some form of nationalism. Patriotism gets referred to often here. It’s argued that every community gets to choose who it will include within its activities, and every member gets to choose whether it will join up in a community.
If you want someone who will promote what they think is just and right beyond a single community, then you want what’s been called a statesman. You want someone who will serve certain values and standards and objectives that go beyond a single community. You do not want a representative. You want a person who is not influenced simply by the what the populace wants, but a person who “will do the right thing” (whatever that means). Rights and universal ethics get referenced often here. You might want someone who is multicultural and multinational.
The two approaches to what a politician should be appear to be are at-odds with one another. Each has reasonable complaints about the other; both appear to be valid systems. Trump vs. Obama (& Clinton) would seem to be an example of these different approaches (and people’s views here in this thread).
Is either approach is right or wrong?
As a combat veteran (and a brother of a full bird colonel sister in the service), I see nothing inherently sacrosanct about service. It’s a job. It provides a service like any other job or profession. I thought it was a great job due to the camaraderie among brothers and sisters in-arms. I got wounded a couple of times, but that didn’t make me special. What made those experiences special were the reflections that arose over the years about nearly losing my life. I would imagine the same thing can be said for a POW’s experience.
Politicians should be first to fight the wars they wage.
People Sleep Peacefully in Their Beds at Night Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready to Do Violence on Their Behalf. (Orwell)
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Jul 24, 2016 - 07:40am PT
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moosedrool wrote: "I lived half of my life under a totalitarian regime. I know their tactics. I can see through their rhetoric and lies"
No, you don't.
Why were not you able to recognise similarity between the US liberals rhetorics and communist ideology?
Both (according to their words) care about common people and want to make their lives better.
However we know that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Historically (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot) such intentions led to totalitarism and human misery.
Why should you expect a different outcome in the US?
Why do you believe that Hillary should be a better ruller than Stalin etc.?
Have you red "Nineteen Eighty-Four"?
Haven't you noticed any warning sign in the US reminding you of this book?
What about liberal thought police?
People in the US are already afraid sharing their thoughts when these thoughts are not alligned with dominant liberal ideology.
That was exactly a case in the USSR.
People were afraid to openly speak there.
However an attempt by Soviet social engineers to build a better sociaty failed and it did not end very well.
I understand why people who were born here (as boling frogs) fail to recognise these signs and see encroachment of totalitarism wraped in liberal rhetorics.
However, I expected that moosedrool should be able to see this.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jul 24, 2016 - 07:50am PT
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Yuri
You got it 100% backwards
Communist Russia was the exact opposite of liberalism
It was hard right wing Totalitarism.
Just like China.
They both threw liberals in jail, just like the Nazis.
1984 warned of the dangers of right wing control, not liberals.
Thought Police?? that's Trump and Bush
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 24, 2016 - 09:26am PT
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Craig, communism and socialism (by Lenin’s definition) are ideologies born of the left. Totalitarianism has no ideology. As a means to an end it could be seen as ideological, but such means are always in direct conflict with their stated goal. It is a mistake to equate totalitarianism itself with an ideology. It is either justified as a necessary evil or a last ditch effort to hold power. Stalin was a ruthless totalitarian, believing of course that circumstances demanded such. But his underlying ideology was from the left.
You mentioned China. The Chinese attempt at communism failed from the outset. The imposition of a totalitarian state as a means to this end failed even after the killing of many millions in the effort. The ideology simply never took hold. An all powerful central authority is what held it together at all. To conclude that this totalitarian state, even in its weakened form today, began out of right wing thinking is incorrect.
Do you see these quotes from Stalin as evidence that his values came from the right?
“In speaking of the capitalists who strive only for profit, only to get rich, I do not want to say that these are the most worthless people capable of doing nothing else. Many of them undoubtedly possess great organizing talent, which I would not dream of denying. We Soviet people learn a lot from the capitalists. But if you mean people who are prepared to reconstruct the world, of course you will not be able to find them in the ranks of those who faithfully serve the cause of profit. ..The capitalist is riveted in profit and nothing can tear him away from it."
"Marxists have more than once pointed out that the capitalist world economic system contains in itself the seeds of a general crisis and of warlike clashes."
"There is not, nor should there be, an irreconcilable contrast between the individual and the collective, between the interests of an individual person and the interests of the collective."
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Jul 24, 2016 - 10:02am PT
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Moose's original post was right on. I haven't been so scared for the future since the Cuban Missile crisis. I don't love Hillary, but will vote to keep that madman out of office.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 24, 2016 - 10:50am PT
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I just read this interview. I recommend it. Set aside a few minutes, you'll be glad you did...
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-us-politics-poor-whites/
edit: A comment posted at the end of the interview:
Mr Dreher, I am writing to thank you for the impressive and thoughtful interview of JD Vance on his book. I am not a conservative. I am a black, gay, immigrant who has been blessed by the dynamic and productive American society we live in. So I am not the average reader of the American Conservative. I came to your article through a friend. So I just wanted to share how refreshing I found to have two white men being able to speak about class, their family experience and acknowledging an experience that is often not visible in our society. The poor rural south that you described and the communities that Mr.. Vance write about are familiar to me. Born in Haiti, growing up in Congo, Africa. I recognize that poverty, I recognize the marginalization and I SO APPRECIATED the conversation about individual agency! That is ultimately where the American dream (if it exists) lives. That deep belief that I as an individual am not a victim and can engage with the world around me! That has been my American lesson. That is the source of the dynamism of this society! Thank you!
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Jul 24, 2016 - 10:58am PT
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Fossil, are not you afraid that Hillary with her activists foreign policy and inclination for regimes change can get us into much worse situation than JFK's missile crisis?
I am afraid that Hillary can succeed where both JFK and Obama failed and can get us into a nuclear war.
When comparing Hillary to Trump, Trump looks like an old peacenik to me.
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