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ecdh
climber
the east
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Apr 24, 2016 - 03:44pm PT
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I dont know squat about first nation people, but ive spent a career amongst marginal groups in other places, and would comment: is trading coins for white mans recreational privilege the best way forward?
Maybe Navajo are somehow better people - or maybe theyre just as corrupted by vice and twisted beliefs as the rest of us. Do their leaders really represent them? Are climbers any more special than any other group?
Is the process worth the result? Does it even matter?
Now i dont claim to know, but having seen this scenario go wrong lots of times i know it takes hard and specialized work to get it right.
What seems fine today can be the cultural timebomb if the future and romantic notions from both sides cloud this.
Like polio vaccinations in afghanistan, sh#t like this can be either the best or worst thing to a culture.
Be careful.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 24, 2016 - 04:22pm PT
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I climbed and lived on the Rez in 1980 and 1981;...maybe things are different now a days, but I just cruised around like everyone else;...treated everyone I met respectfully and asked to be treated respectfully by everyone I met. I had no negative encounters with any Navajos and most of the time we climbed, no one knew we were climbing nor did anyone seem to care. I climbed with my Navajo buddies and everyone in my town knew I climbed and thought it was cool or didn't seem to care;..no one ever said anything to me. I lived in a mud hogan and worked at the local school teaching 5th grade. I felt at ease and at home the two years I was there. I say, get some Navajo buddies;...there is a strong but small group of Navajo climbers that seem way cool and love to climb. They can tell you all you need to know about climbing on the Rez. Back in 1980 and 1981, there were no Navajo climbers that I knew of. Share what you have, be friendly and appreciative, throw down some food or cash if you wish;....don't be afraid of Navajos or ashambed to be a climber. Things won't change if you don't try to make things happen. Here is a picture of the inside of my hogan....it was a great home and cozy as can be.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 24, 2016 - 05:12pm PT
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let's see...
take the advice of the guy living in idaho who recently spent two days there and says "bribe them"...
or
take the advice of Quentin Tutt, a climber who lives there, and says "Please ask for permission when attempting to climb on the Navajo Nation as there are Navajo climbers that can get you access and that's the way we prefer it." which is almost exactly the same as the advice from one of the more prolific whitish climbers to that area who says "get some Navajo buddies"....
hmmm... the above makes for a tough choice.
i guess if being a co-dependent, mush-mouthed, fantasy-land, retard means making friends with people and asking for permission before i climb on their land, then a co-dependent, mush-mouthed, fantasy-land retard i'm happy to be... /s
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 24, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
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Everybody should follow their own path Nah, let me know how yours works out.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Apr 25, 2016 - 03:28pm PT
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Tribal Parks
It is $20 now (as of 4/24/16) for a single person up to four in a car to enter Monument Valley. Most roads in park are by private tour only (more dollars). No hiking signs are everywhere. Add then the private residences in the valley adjacent to the land forms. Monument Valley is a no go for climbing without a lot of help from the inside crew (Dine Climbers Coalition). The other parks have specific policy of no climbing.
Canyon de Chelly is national monument, run by feds/tribe. Spider Rock has homes nearby. Plus, the rappels were bad in the 1980's and cant be redrilled as the homes are so close without full consent.
The balance of land is still tribe and official stance is climbing is illegal. I know that the grazing owner of Jacobs Ladder/Teapot is NOT friendly. The grazing owner of the old navajo designated road where Bentwood and Pratilus spires has fenced and closed the area and is NOT friendly. Lots of new fences and new locked gates, the place looks like the village in the Magnificent Seven.
..not everyone is as cool a Chauney, he's so fine.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Apr 25, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
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And the common car is not a 1992 beater truck. Better be american and full size.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2016 - 03:42pm PT
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Hey, it is their home we are talking about. There isn't a lot of money on the res, I know that much, so milking tourists is fine by me. I bet everyone of them happily pays to drive through Monument Valley. Even the 4 corners monument now has a fee, but there a lot of vendors there, and you can stuff yourself with yummy frybread. You pay to visit Yosemite and all other National Parks, Monuments, even some BLM areas. That isn't anything new. You pay to climb in your gym.
Again. It is their home, so they make the decisions that they think are best for them.
I'm sorry that I keep coming back to money, but it is not a bribe. It is a gift. One that they can use for whatever they need.
If they thought that they could make income off of climbers, well, to me we are really no different from tourists. Perhaps we worship the landscape more, in our own way, but we are still outsiders. And I have been treated very well by the people who invited us into their homes. They are nice folks. Still, I wasn't one of them.
I like it when you get inside the res and the radio is all spoken in Navajo. The natives in the Venetie Reservation in the Arctic are far smaller in numbers, and are desperately trying to keep their language alive. In that place, you really feel it when you are a white guy. The best way to get to know people in the native Alaskan villages is to go to church. No kidding, and don't be a jerk. You must be humble. You are in their home, separated by a vast cultural gorge.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 25, 2016 - 06:08pm PT
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Avoiding eye contact and looking down during conversation is a sign of respect.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 25, 2016 - 06:13pm PT
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Interesting perpectives in the last few posts.
One take home idea as rickd pointed out, "The official stance on the Navajo Reservation is that rock climbing is illegal." We as a community may want to respect the laws of the Dineh even if we may not agree with the prohibitions. We likely want to work with the locals to encourage their acceptance of climbing on their lands if this is an activity we seek.
I am blessed to love a traditional Dineh family. It's not my place to speak too much, but try to understand this traditional culture is very much a part of the natural landscape. Our culture has severely disrupted the Dineh way of life. Understand that some of these people are still fighting for their traditional roots and their homeland. If you look at the link I posted earlier, some folks I know are still victims of cultural genocide in the Black Mesa (i.e. coal mining) area. They are being forced from their homes so that the machine can keep growing.
Please treat all Dineh and their lands with respect.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Apr 25, 2016 - 08:53pm PT
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Maybe if we were to just point them to this thread, where they could read about the suffering and ignominy of climbers being shamefully forced to sneak around like we don't own the place, then they could see that we're not like the other whiteys. Alrighty then.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2016 - 07:22am PT
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Well, the Dine climbers have linked this thread to their Facebook thread, so maybe they will post here.
They are the only ones who could really explain things.
This thread is pretty bare without their input.
I started this thread, because I have friends, and I know of, many people who have poached spires on their land. I would like to know what the people there feel about it. The thread was not meant to be "Best way to sneak in to do the Totem Pole."
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Apr 26, 2016 - 08:32am PT
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It would be great to hear from actual people that live there, though I am sure there is no unified position. As a practical matter it's not a particularly easy place to get to and one needs to be a pretty solid 5.10 / 5.11 backcountry sandstone type climber to get much of anything done. Amazing place...
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 26, 2016 - 10:12am PT
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some folks I know are still victims of cultural genocide in the Black Mesa (i.e. coal mining) area. They are being forced from their homes so that the machine can keep growing.
The Black Mesa mine closed in 2005 when the Mohave Station (in Laughlin) shut down. Black Mesa Mine was an ecologic disaster from the start. The Kayenta mine which is on the edge of Black Mesa supplies The Navajo Generating Station in Page AZ. This mine does not use precious water to transport coal like Black Mesa did. Navajo station is the 3rd largest emitter of CO2 in the country
The tribe keeps the mining going at Kayenta by allowing the generating station to continue to operate. This is the tribe doing it to itself. I agree that us anglos have done plenty of bad stuff, but the indians have plenty of blame to shoulder too.
Ask the Hopi how they have been shafted by the Navajo, and how many indigenous cultures did the navajo decimate whne they arrived around 1100 AD, yep, they are relative noobs.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 26, 2016 - 11:09am PT
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This is not a new thing,
as Gordo pointed out Treat the lords of the fantastic as the Fantastic culture that they are.
When we went anywhere,that was 3rd world-ish
we went with the understanding that we were buying NEW gear to Leave.
To further the development of the area, yes,
but also to show respect & share in the whole experience.
The Locals were always competitive to be our guides.(
( one time a frnd/guide was robbed after we left, that was a double edge)
The thing is we would leave them everything and anything they Needed or wanted.
The Whole KIT extra harnesses helmets shoes, ropes, Bolts, hammers ,drills n bits, pins Cams,
everything .
All of the things that we could get that was unavailable to them ...
Money too
Water filters, Food & Medicine, WE Asked what was needed.
we are the Richest SOB"s ever.
Was It bribery, ? Payment?
The Cost Of Doing Business
YES, It is a GIVEN, be humble & helpful, the stories from climbers helping out, in Patagonia, ring true.
V V V V V V
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Apr 26, 2016 - 12:12pm PT
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^^^^^or maybe just being a good guest in someone else's house
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 27, 2016 - 06:49pm PT
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Thanks Jon Beck for more information on the Black Mesa coal mine. I flew over it in a Skycrane about a decade ago and the strip mine was an incredible sight. I've heard the groundwater pumping had a devastating effect on the springs in the area of which many people still rely upon for their drinking water.
My friends live in the Big Mountain area. It is a very complex issue which I am barely qualified to speak about but will anyway in hopes of getting others to do their own research. It is my understanding that the coal companies hired politicians to parcel off lands among the Hopi and Navajo mostly so that we could get to the coal. Around 1974 there was a "Relocation Act" which said the Dineh living around Big Mountain (their home for a hundred years or more), needed to move because this land now belong to the Hopi. Many did move but a core resistance group remains to this day (see link posted earlier). From what I have heard, the media and politicians created this "battle" between the Dineh and Hopi in order to grab the land. Whether one chooses to believe it or not, my friends feel victims of cultural genocide to this day.
My Elder Dineh friends (a couple of whom are half my age) tell me that the Hopi and Dineh Elders long ago reached a mutual agreement where they want the lands left alone, that meaning free from commercial exploitation and development. As mentioned before the traditional Dineh I have met, feel very much a part of the natural landscape. Those spires we seek to climb are a part of their religious and social belief system, an extension of their spirit, soul and physical body.
If for whatever reasons we feel entitled to go onto these Reservations to climb, please visit these sacred lands with good intentions, respect and appreciation for a rapidly disappearing culture. Many of the climbers I've met in the last few decades would be much better suited going to places like Sedona, Grand Canyon, Valley of the Gods, Zion or Canyonlands.
Even if we do not completely understand the reasons why, perhaps we as a community should strongly consider protecting our few remaining wild places as well as our handful of traditional cultures.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 27, 2016 - 09:22pm PT
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[photoid=454207]
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