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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 22, 2016 - 08:57am PT
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I know about the friction between climbers and the Navajo. There is friction, and climbers are forced to sneak around. I think I know of a way around this. Damn. We used to visit the Ranger's station in Chinle and get our permit from them. How it got shut down is complicated, but basically it came to the attention of the district ranger, and he shut us down. The Navajo had nothing to do with that. They treated us like kings.
We used to jump a site in Canyon de Chelly. It was totally legal back in the mid to late 80's, and we would go out there several times a year, spend a week doing 4 jumps a day, but since no white is allowed in the confines of Canyon de Chelly, we hired a guide and paid him 150 bucks per day.
We always used the same guy. If you visited his house, he had a ton of Carl Boenish's early BASE photos on his wall. The Navajo dug BASE, believe it or not. Perhaps because we always asked and we always paid. We showed respect.
If climbers would pay, say, a couple of hundred to do the Totem Pole, and 100 for Spider Rock, and 300 to do the Mitten Thumbs in Monument Valley, they would change their tune most likely. Leave your payment with the person who owns the land around the Totem Pole. Put it in an envelope and slip it beneath the door on the sly.
It would get around, and they would realize that climbers aren't just any whitey. They would feel respected. Yes, they like money. Perhaps it is because there is so little of it on the res. If climbers were to start paying for their bandit climbs, it might change things.
To Indians, it shows respect. We think it is just greed, but it isn't. Climbing now is taking without giving. Start giving, and see what happens.
Eventually, the Park Service shut us down in Canyon de Chelley. It still gets done, but the Navajo don't make a cent. They need to figure out some way of paying as well.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:03am PT
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First step: kick the Park Service out of Navajo/Hopi lands. They got some nerve.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:06am PT
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Buy a beater 1992 Chevy pickup like mine.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:09am PT
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Is that a stealth machine, Jim?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:11am PT
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Indeed
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:13am PT
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Good post, though I'm not so sure about this:
"climbers aren't just any whitey".
The whiteness of climbing has been noted elsewhere, and climbers are probably no better or worse than the rest.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:14am PT
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Chevy pick up runnin with the spare donut off granny's cadillac...
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:22am PT
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Treat all the Navajo you meet with respect.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:32am PT
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Pay-to-climb isn't necessarily a new or invalid concept. It's been going on for years in Colorado. If you want to climb all the 14,000 foot peaks, be prepared to pony up some cash to climb Culebra Peak, which is on 100% privately owned land. It's impossible to "sneak in," as the roads to the mountain are privately maintained and patrolled. Be prepared to have your car towed away if they find it w/o a permit purchased at the ranch headquarters. A few years ago, it was something like--$60 per person.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:37am PT
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Donini failed to mention the Chupacabra mounted on the hood.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:43am PT
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gone totally vicarious, strictly virtual. they do bitcoin?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:47am PT
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There are Navajos that actively climb, some of them have posted on here in the past. I have a relative from Shiprock who is married to a Navajo climber, I have never met him, and not sure if he climbs on the rez, they live in Phoenix I think.
Having base jumpers splat on tribal land is really bad juju and might explain some of the resistance.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
Of THIS World (Planet Earth)
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:54am PT
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Drive, hike, climb, be respectful of everyone and everything.
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KevinK
climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 22, 2016 - 10:35am PT
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I've seen this sentiment mentioned numerous times, even by climbers I highly respect, but I think formalized high peak fees are a bad precedent and a bad idea. For pretty much everything on the Rez outside of the Monument Valley Tribal Loop and Canyon De Chelly, knocking on a door, introducing yourself, making friends, maybe giving some coffee, a bag of flour or apples, or more, will get you access. Even better, find the Navajo climbers out there, make some friends, and go with them. Sure, some people feel comfortable and can afford paying landowners or Navajo guides, but this is by no means mandatory. If you're looking for a quick in I believe there are a few locals looking for more bolts and a helping hand in sport bolting some of the top rope routes at Black Rock, the local's crag between Fort Defiance and Window Rock.
I've knocked on quite a few doors asking if I can park and climb, most people have had no problem and even the one person that did turn me down was extremely nice about it. A few have gone so far as to thank me for coming out and visiting them on their land. I think the only other whites that ever come knocking are the Mormons...
As far as potential access in Monument Valley, for now I think it's best to take it slow. 12 years ago when the Access Fund almost got it opened there were no or very few Navajo climbers, now there are some and the numbers are growing. I think the ideal way to get it opened would be to help support the grassroots building of a real active Navajo climbing community that pushes for it, not just whitey coming by and effectively bribing our way in. I'd rather pay $150 to buy a Navajo climber a rope than a peak fee to the Tribal Parks office.
If all else fails, Donini is right (as usual), get a beater pickup ;)
But your Colorado or California plates aren't going to cut it; you need AZ, NM, or UT might work in a pinch. Also full size and no cap on the back. Only bilagáana with something to hide have camper shells.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 22, 2016 - 11:01am PT
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crunch has made a connection with some Dineh climbers.
He slips them a C note for each day.
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JC Marin
Trad climber
CA
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Apr 22, 2016 - 12:26pm PT
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Reincarnate as a Navajo
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Apr 22, 2016 - 01:59pm PT
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With these guys?
vvvvvvvv That and 3 dollars will get you a small coffee at Harbuck's
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 22, 2016 - 02:00pm PT
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My son is an enrolled Navajo, not sure what access that gets me or him. I think it gets him out of the daily use fee in Marble Canyon.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 22, 2016 - 02:01pm PT
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I'd rather pay $150 to buy a Navajo climber a rope than a peak fee to the Tribal Parks office.
word
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Apr 22, 2016 - 02:26pm PT
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I'd rather pay $150 to buy a Navajo climber a rope than a peak fee to the Tribal Parks office.
word
Seconding that
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 22, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
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No individual tribal member has authority to grant permission to climb on the reservation, only the Tribal Parks Dept.
This is from Quentin Tutt, one of the climbers on the rez, cross-posted from MP:
Just my two cents... The Navajo Nation still has its ban or restriction on climbing on the Navajo Nation in place. Cedar just happened to speak to the right people and should you pursue this avenue (in which I do recommend) please ask and not poach climbing on our reservation. During our tenure with Cedar and Alex, we still ran into some troubles and even though I'm the 'Navajo Guide' who did take them out there, there are some that still will take advantage of you since those outside of the tribe are 'outsiders'. Please ask for permission when attempting to climb on the Navajo Nation as there are Navajo climbers that can get you access and that's the way we prefer it. Also, we had a blast witnessing these two climbers tear it up on our reservation. We hope we can be of some assistance again down the road. Please visit our Dine (Navajo) Rock Climbers Coalition page on Facebook to get more info on how you can climb on our reservation.
Quentin Tutt - 05/06/2014 10:18:36
Definitely get ahold of the rez climbers on their facebook page if you are interested in climbing there. Bottom line is if you are interested, then the best approach is to help out with their climbing coalition and get as many kids climbing in tribe as possible.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 22, 2016 - 04:38pm PT
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Interesting thread. I've done very little climbing on the Rez despite having lived next door to it for 25 years. With hundreds (thousands?) of towers between Sedona, Grand Canyon, Valley of the Gods and Canyonlands I always figured there were plenty of legal towers to summit without the risk of disrespecting the Dineh.
I'm dear friends with a number of traditional Dineh. Though I haven't specifically discussed climbing with them, please understand this culture has a much different view of the land then most white folks. The Dineh are a part of the landscape, those rocks and spires are their friends and temples, places they respect and worship. Even if you have no understanding of this belief system, we should honor their values.
We all know that rock climbers are often one of the lamest outdoor user groups around. For those of you interested in poaching climbs on the Rez, I would strongly suggest getting to know the people who live in the area where you intend to climb.
The tribal government is as corrupt as our politicians. It does not seem a good idea to pay them to climb. Given the choice it seems wiser to give donations straight to the locals for their benefit.
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thirsty
climber
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Apr 22, 2016 - 06:16pm PT
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I've lived next door to the Navajo Nation for a long time and my work has often brought me in close contact with their people and their law enforcement. However, I have never been in with anyone. When I am on their lands in an unofficial capacity to climb, I just try to keep a really low profile and show respect to anyone with whom I come in contact. I definitely don't have any advice for what the best way of gaining or maintaining access is, because I wouldn't pretend to know. I know there are some really beautiful places out there, and I like to visit them. I have seen a couple of practices/attitudes that trouble me:
1)Non-Navajos deciding for themselves that the institutions of the Navajo Nation are so corrupt, dysfunctional or inefficient that its OK to disregard them. Navajos have the right to have their government respected, regardless of what an outsider might think of it. Their process is their own, and maybe its not ideal, but that doesn't mean that an outsider can evaluate it or make it better. Eventually, they will improve their own government if and when they choose to. Also - some of the inefficiency in arranging permits for outsiders is probably intentional. Maximizing economic opportunity isn't necessarily as high on their list of priorities as it is for us outsiders.
2)People/climbers making special friends with particular Navajos as a way of gaining access. This isn't necessarily wrong or deliberately manipulative, but its important to remember that throughout the colonial era most resource exploitation of indigenous lands has started with outsiders befriending individuals of the region. It has meant seducing those individuals in various ways, often with various riches or luxuries or just status enhancing association with the outside visitors and their power and then using them as guides, sources of intelligence, contacts and so forth.... Climbing is a form of resource exploitation. There are some fantastic walls on the Navajo Nation that could eventually be a profitable economic draw for the Navajo Nation. I think we should let them decide for themselves whether or not they want to develop this resource. In the past outsiders have often made the decision for indigenous people about whether resources like oil or minerals are worth developing. Just because its profitable doesn't mean its worthwhile.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Apr 22, 2016 - 06:31pm PT
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Some really informative post and informed points of view on this thread
I am that guy that would have been on the side of the Native Americans during the Indian Wars they and their different tribal cultures have been a big part of my life since I was a young boy
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Apr 22, 2016 - 08:48pm PT
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
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Considering the thousands of towers, spires, buttes and choss piles on the Colorado Plateau which are found on "public lands", most climbers might be best off to avoid climbing on the Dineh Reservation.
If you do decide to climb on "The Rez" it would be respectful to learn about the traditional culture of the Dineh.
Some of my friends have been under siege for a long time by the culture we have inflicted upon them.
Do your part to stay informed.
http://supportblackmesa.org
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:07pm PT
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I climbed Totem pole twice .....
The locals let us.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:21pm PT
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That's cool Werner, when you did it there were 10k "climbers" in the country.
Now there are 10 million "climbers" and ST, and FB, Twitter and Instagram, and blogs and all kinds of stupid fluff that people use to shamelessly self promote.
I understand that my friends who live on the Rez worship these landforms as a part of their home, their heritage and their being. We might realize that when we approach these towers we are encroaching into some families front yard or their living room. We should be mindful approaching any climb on the Dineh lands and for most of us this is time better spent in more open areas.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2016 - 11:36am PT
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throughout the colonial era most resource exploitation of indigenous lands has started with outsiders befriending individuals of the region. It has meant seducing those individuals in various ways, often with various riches or luxuries
It wasn't just the colonial era. Anytime a person could take advantage of another, through simple and honest ignorance, it is a sort of hate crime, in my eyes. The story of how Oklahoma, which had been the home of many tribes, some of them moved there from the east, was almost completely ripped off in a ten year span is covered in the book, And Still The Waters Run, by Angie Debo. My great grandparents moved to Indian Territory around 1900. It became a state in 1907. Fraud and abuse was rampant. After I read that book, I was ashamed. However, the Chickasaws, who I grew up with, now own the town and are incredibly wealthy off of their casinos. They employ a ton of white people. Being Indian was cool when I grew up, but still, the Chickasaw's were ripped off of most of their lands. It gets complicated, but you need to understand the Dawes Act.
The locals didn't kick BASE jumpers off of the res. The park service did that. I remember on Thanksgiving when our guide invited us into his small home for their feast. They treated us far better than they should have. The old people sat on the floor to eat, while we were seated at the small table. Frybread is good stuff.
Yikes! I didn't think that someone from the res would read this, but jumping there was a huge secret. To be invited, you had to have a clean reputation, it was such a good cliff. Way better than anything around Moab. 600 feet, and overhanging by about 150 feet. You would have to be a dunce to hit the wall, and the worst injury there was a broken ankle once.
As for payment. That was the cost anyone paid for a private guide, and we never went down into Canyon de Chelley without a guide. It bothers me that jumpers do it on the down low today. Not because of the stupid Park Service. What they are doing on Navajo land baffles me.
We scouted both canyons for other sites. We found one spot that was good and you could easily get to the top. We asked who owned the small corn field at the base. It was an old woman who didn't speak English. We offered as much as we could afford for one day of jumping. To us, we were just paying a toll, and to do it without compensation would be insulting. We were trying to be good.
So, on that day, they brought the old woman to the base in a pickup truck, sitting in an old recliner. Her grandkids put her on the ground and built a fire to keep her warm. We all did three jumps that day, landing right next to her. She smiled and laughed at us like we were half crazy. We were as polite as we could have been, because we had already spent many hours driving in and out with our guide, and he told us a lot. I was a climber, so I asked about Spider Rock. I got the feeling that the biggest transgression was for an outsider to even set foot in that canyon without a guide. Those are the rules. Their rules.
It went on for many years. When a person pointed out to the park in Yosemite that we had been safely jumping the National Monument in CDC for years, it caught the attention of the district ranger, and was shut down immediately. So we were then faced with the whole aerial delivery charge, loss of gear, jail, huge fine, just as in Yosemite. We had been getting legal waivers from the rangers at CDC as long as the locals approved.
It is one of the safest sites in the canyons area. Besides, most fatalities these days are wingsuiters, and this was too low for a wingsuit. Too bad Hankster isn't here anymore, because he's jumped it and could toss in his own two cents.
We just obeyed the rules. When I first saw the poverty there, I was deeply humbled. They need more money. And remember what Kit Carson did there.
It is about respect, asking, money yes, but they liked us. Jumping didn't bother them. It was just off of overhanging spots that weren't important in the way that Spider Rock is.
I agree with KevinK. I miss our guide. I miss jumping there. We did that one spot BECAUSE it was infinitely safer than Castleton, the Titan, or Tombstone, which we scouted and are now jumped all of the time.
As for "splatting," it was a very safe site. Hank would agree with this.
Again, it was the Park Service that stopped it. This is well known, and there are documents. Suddenly they wouldn't give us permits, making it just as illegal as El Cap. It was NOT the people. They laughed at us.
As I also said in the OP, our guide's house was plastered with framed shots of BASE jumping given to him by Carl Boenish. I guess you could say that the ones who saw us do it thought that it was cool.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2016 - 12:22pm PT
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I yack too much, but I would never presume to understand the private lives of the people or their culture. We were largely ignorant. All we did was follow the rules, and leave a big tip. We gave rides to anyone holding their thumb out, and in Chinle, that got out. We were OK guys. Acceptable to some point or other.
The only one who benefitted was our guide, and in that one circumstance, the old lady.
I have no idea why they liked BASE jumpers. It was new back then. Really rare to witness, much less do.
As I drove up the old highway 666 (now renumbered) a month ago, I noticed some pretty big and steep walls on some of the volcanic plugs south of Shiprock. Shiprock isn't alone, but I have no clue as to rock quality.
It is an out of the way place to go climbing, though, but to be invited to join a group of jumpers (it was always limited to 4 of us max, but I'm not sure why), was an honor, because you were sworn to secrecy about the place. It was handed down by word of mouth, and really was a big secret. I feel a little strange spilling the beans after 30 years even.
Back then it wasn't fatalities that were a problem. They were rare due to the low numbers of jumpers. Across the globe. The problem was skydivers. The same skydivers that broke the rules and ruined a legal El Cap. They were like the bikers of the sky, and happily broke any rule in front of them.
That was why CDC was such a secret. We didn't want an invasion of skydivers, and managed to keep it that way. Nobody went there without at least one of the group having been there before. It was a small number, and we went there about 3 times a year. Other groups also went, obeying the same rules that had been worked out to protect the site. Protecting a site is HUGE among BASE jumpers.
Skydivers burned more than just El Cap. To get on TV back then, all you had to do was drop a dime and a TV station would jump at the chance to put you on the news. We despised this type. We were doing dozens of jumps a year, almost always at night, and very early in the sport, a typical skydiver would do it with the wrong gear and no experience. That and the drinking. And the press. They were too rowdy. We managed to keep CDC a secret for many years. The skydivers never found out about it.
Once, Doug Robinson showed some of my slides to Choinard for inclusion in his catalogue. He wanted to buy the one above, of me jumping barefoot. We didn't even consider selling it. It was too big of a secret. They used a different one off of El Cap eventually. You couldn't burn El Cap any worse by those days. Judge Pitts was in full swing.
There really was a difference between the 25 odd hardcore BASE folks back then than the skydivers, though. Now skydiving is pretty mundane, and nobody swills beers between loads, risking getting grounded or kicked off of a DZ. I'm sure some still do it, but back then beer and skydiving were as connected as beer and the deli ever were. Basically, skydivers were out of control. So they had to shut El Cap down. Nobody was really surprised. They were breaking all of the rules without a thought.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 23, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
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My wife's tribe is in the same boat with regard to drugs, language loss, and being forced to settle long-standing lawsuits with the government for pennies on each dollar owed the tribe for broken promises, treaties and contracts. Hundreds of years later it's still very much an invisible and under-the-table continuation of genocide by other means.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 23, 2016 - 06:40pm PT
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How is how.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Apr 23, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
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Best way to climb on Navajo land
How about not at all . . .
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 24, 2016 - 05:56am PT
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Do not try impersonating The Howler.
The Navajo Indian reservation is home to many amazing creatures.
One of them is called The Howler. It is a mysterious being believed to have killed dogs and livestock. Elders in the community call these predators Skinwalkers, and others call it the Navajo version of Bigfoot, particularly news people.
The reservation even has a special law enforcement agency that only responds to paranormal reports such as ghosts, witchcraft, UFOs and even Skinwalkers, or if you prefer, Bigfoot. (Nah, nothing like a Skinwalker
)
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 24, 2016 - 06:00am PT
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Only bilagáana with something to hide have camper shells.
You mean, something they don't want stolen from the locals.
If you really want to climb on Rez land, pay your bribe, hopefully to the right person that can keep the dogs at bay, and be on your way.
Nation building on Navajo land is about as likely as turning the Mujaheddin into Christians.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2016 - 12:32pm PT
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Yeah, of course you are right. Look. This is a civilization which is much older than our own, or at least from the time that whites first showed up into the area.
I've read the super good book, Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee, and one of the war crimes committed against the Navaho was a massacre committed by Kit Carson, who was a famous early character involved in the earliest forays into the vast west in the early 1800's. It is an important story. Here is a synopsis from wiki:
Canyon de Chelly
Carson wanted to take a winter break from the campaign. Major Carleton refused. Kit was ordered to invade the Canyon de Chelly. It was here that many Navajos had taken refuge. Historian David Roberts writes, "Carson's sweep through the Canyon de Chelly in the winter of 18631864 would prove to be the decisive action in the Campaign."[47]
The Canyon de Chelly was a sacred place for the Navajo. They believed that it would now be their strongest sanctuary. Three hundred Navajo took refuge on the canyon rim at a place called Fortress Rock. They resisted Carson's invasion by building rope ladders and bridges, lowering water pots into a stream, and keeping quiet and out of sight. These three hundred Navajo survived the invasion. In January 1864, Carson swept through the 35-mile (56 km) Canyon with his forces. The thousands of peach trees in the canyon were cut down. Few Navajo were killed or captured. Carson's invasion, however, proved to the Navajo that the white man could invade their country at any time. Many Navajo surrendered at Fort Canby.[48]
By March 1864, there were 3,000 refugees at Fort Canby. An additional 5,000 arrived in the camp. They were suffering from the intense cold and hunger. Carson asked for supplies to feed and clothe them. The thousands of Navajo were led to Bosque Redondo. Many died along the way. Stragglers in the rear were shot and killed. In Navajo history, this horrific trek is known as Long Walk of the Navajo. By 1866, reports indicated that Bosque Redondo was a complete failure. Major Carleton was fired. Congress started investigations. In 1868, a treaty was signed, and the Navajo were allowed to return to their homeland. Bosque Redondo was closed.[49/
So I can understand their feelings towards whites. This goes back to that massacre, and up to today, where well-meaning politicians try to help the people, but in many cases, probably hurt them.
A trip to Gallup is revealing. One time a friend came out of a liquor store, and a native asked him for 3 of his beers. My friend, who was a really good guy, asked why? The guy replied, "Because you have three and I have none." Now talking about an alcoholic isn't really funny, but his barter, taken alone, made sense. Share.
White culture is very selfish, I think, but I'm not intimately familiar with life and politics on the res.
My original point was meant to mean that we need to pay for what we take from these people, because much has already been taken. I drove through the res 6 weeks ago. You see cookie cutter government housing. All of the houses look alike, and although small, are as big as many places I have lived in with plenty of rommmates. So hopefully they have shelter. From what I can see, they have few economic prospects. There isn't much oil in the area, except up around Aneth. I believe that there is a big coal mine on res land. I just know that when oil showed up in Oklahoma, a state originally devoted to Indian tribes, through fraud and plain old taking advantage of a people with different values, managed to strip them from their land in only 15 years. That is where I live, and when I read the whole story, it made me ashamed of my ancestors, who certainly took advantage of the Choctaw and Chicasaw to some degree, but they were small. Not tycoons or anything like that.
When you know the whole story, any ethical person will become extremely uncomfortable, and our history of how Indians were conquered physically and economically is a sad part of our history.
So first of all, you have to be respectful. Don't talk. Just listen. Dan, our guide, told us stories all day as we had to drive an hour out of the Canyon to pack and go jump again. He was a great guy. As an aside, one morning we were driving back to Chinle. It was cold. In the single digits. We picked up a man on the road, and he was freezing, over 15 miles from town. He was very thankful, but on the road to town he asked us to pull over at a mobile home, where the bootlegger lived. We refused, and drove him to Chinle and dropped him off with his family. Alcohol is prohibited in most Alaskan bush villages, because for some reason, it affects the native americans far differently. Alcoholism leads to all sorts of bad things, such as child abuse.
Alcohol is a problem with native americans. I have a good friend, who is Otoe and Pawnee, and he had to deal with it. A brilliant guy. A lawyer whose dad was an engineer. His grandfather was a chief, and my friend still has the huge headdress. I've seen it, covered with eagle feathers.
I still say that money at least seems best, but it has to come with humility. Cash is convertible to whatever it is that they need. If they need corn and you give them peaches, it might not be the best. Why we don't give them a living wage, even if they can't find "normal" work, we certainly owe it to them.
So any climbing there, in my mind, should require a permit, perhaps like a driver's license, and it should cost several hundred dollars. Their rules should be carefully followed. I think that respect is the first thing required to use THEIR land. We ask permission to climb on crags on private white lands. How is this any different, other than the res is the home of the entire nation.
I never went back to jump the Antelope House exit after the NPS shut it down. To do so would require illegally stepping foot in the canyon without a guide ( a BIG rule), and that was irrespectful as well as taking without paying. Others do go there now and then, because it is a terrific site. A little on the low side, but with today's gear, slider down jumps just don't see the accident rate that other types of BASE do.
In Idaho Falls, the locals legalized jumping from the Perrine Bridge. People travel from across the country to do it, and it has been done tens of thousands of times. A guy did it 201 times in a 21 hour period. There have been accidents, but only because there are no rules, and people do stupid stuff.
If the Dine opened up that exit as a legal site, it would bring in a ton of jumpers, quite willing to pay a reasonable fee to jump it. It was found around 1980-81 by Carl Boenish, as he scoured the 4 corners areas looking for cliffs. The first jumps were part of a TV show, but those that followed were done by established rules. They weren't onerous.
I don't know whether or not they would accept that number of people, but it could keep one of the tourist trucks operating all day. Those trucks hold at least a dozen people, and it is how most people see the Canyon, which is an idyllic space.
I'm just throwing ideas out there to see if any stick. Certainly it would be different, but tourism is big in Chinle, and it could greatly increase the tourism.
A slider down jump from a 600+ foot object, with a sand landing area, is now a simple affair. Rarely are there fatalities. At the most cliff strikes, like what happened to Ammon in Moab. You would have the occasional rescue. There would be impacts (not literally). It is a choice for the Dine to make on their own, but that cliff is the most overhanging cliff that I know of in the whole western plateau. I've opened 180 off there, and it was simple to turn around. So it is a 4 star exit. It is out of the way, but so is a trip to Twin Falls, and if a jumper could rack up 50 cliff jumps at such a great site, it might work. Of course, the 500 foot cliffs around Moab are free. On BLM land, and there are a ton of exits. Oddly, you can't jump in Arches NM, but you can jump to your hear's content across the river a thousand yards away.
I saw that the Dine Climbers linked to this thread on their Facebook page. I considered nuking it, because I didn't get it right, and am a little embarrassed. For now, I will leave it up.
I mean well, but any decision will have to come from them. It is their land.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 24, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
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I drove through three days ago to visit some friends who work for child welfare on the rez and for Gallup City Limits.
In the two days we visited, they took in a total of 10 children that were excavated from their homes.
One was a 7 year old girl, brutally sexually abused (repeatedly), she was very cute.
Another was an 8 yr old boy who we have since found out was being given heroin along with his parents. He is currently suffering from withdrawals, another was an alcoholic at age 7 I think and was going through DTs.
The other was a 10 yr old (the oldest child they will take) who literally went outside to play, got scuffed up on the swing set, and came back to tell our friends (volunteers I will add) that he is going to call child protection services and claim he was beaten while in their care. Specifically in order to get more money.
They have volunteered across the US and Africa. They said this is the absolute worst they have ever seen in their lives, bar none.
I will repeat.....nation building on the Navajo Res is not an objective I would like to see our government pursue any further.
If you want to climb, or do anything really, your best chance of success involves leaving your moral compass in the bedside drawer.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 24, 2016 - 01:22pm PT
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You are so f*#ked up it's hard to put into words. It takes folks like you to mistake genocide for nation building. Always glad when people like you self-identify themselves so there's no guessing involved.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Apr 24, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
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Those are some horrible stories but I am with Healye on this one, you sure do have a weird ass way of looking at s. h. i. t. I guess we all do in our own way but most of us don't feel compelled to air it on the internet
Edit
Referring to Essiepropecia's post
vvvvvvvvvvvvvv Some shotgun shells fell out of your pocket. Share some more deep thinking
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 24, 2016 - 03:38pm PT
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Two delusional dreamers saying I'm the one that has a weird way of looking at things. Typical.
The amount of sh#t you people are willing to try and rationalize still amazes me.
The topic of the thread is "The Best Way to Climb on Navajo Land?" and I answered it better than any of you co-dependent, mush-mouthed, fantasy-land, retards are willing to admit.......by bribing them. That is still the single best way and it doesn't change simply due to the fact that your delicate sensibilities can't wrap your head around it.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Apr 24, 2016 - 03:44pm PT
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I dont know squat about first nation people, but ive spent a career amongst marginal groups in other places, and would comment: is trading coins for white mans recreational privilege the best way forward?
Maybe Navajo are somehow better people - or maybe theyre just as corrupted by vice and twisted beliefs as the rest of us. Do their leaders really represent them? Are climbers any more special than any other group?
Is the process worth the result? Does it even matter?
Now i dont claim to know, but having seen this scenario go wrong lots of times i know it takes hard and specialized work to get it right.
What seems fine today can be the cultural timebomb if the future and romantic notions from both sides cloud this.
Like polio vaccinations in afghanistan, sh#t like this can be either the best or worst thing to a culture.
Be careful.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 24, 2016 - 04:22pm PT
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I climbed and lived on the Rez in 1980 and 1981;...maybe things are different now a days, but I just cruised around like everyone else;...treated everyone I met respectfully and asked to be treated respectfully by everyone I met. I had no negative encounters with any Navajos and most of the time we climbed, no one knew we were climbing nor did anyone seem to care. I climbed with my Navajo buddies and everyone in my town knew I climbed and thought it was cool or didn't seem to care;..no one ever said anything to me. I lived in a mud hogan and worked at the local school teaching 5th grade. I felt at ease and at home the two years I was there. I say, get some Navajo buddies;...there is a strong but small group of Navajo climbers that seem way cool and love to climb. They can tell you all you need to know about climbing on the Rez. Back in 1980 and 1981, there were no Navajo climbers that I knew of. Share what you have, be friendly and appreciative, throw down some food or cash if you wish;....don't be afraid of Navajos or ashambed to be a climber. Things won't change if you don't try to make things happen. Here is a picture of the inside of my hogan....it was a great home and cozy as can be.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 24, 2016 - 05:12pm PT
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let's see...
take the advice of the guy living in idaho who recently spent two days there and says "bribe them"...
or
take the advice of Quentin Tutt, a climber who lives there, and says "Please ask for permission when attempting to climb on the Navajo Nation as there are Navajo climbers that can get you access and that's the way we prefer it." which is almost exactly the same as the advice from one of the more prolific whitish climbers to that area who says "get some Navajo buddies"....
hmmm... the above makes for a tough choice.
i guess if being a co-dependent, mush-mouthed, fantasy-land, retard means making friends with people and asking for permission before i climb on their land, then a co-dependent, mush-mouthed, fantasy-land retard i'm happy to be... /s
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 24, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
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Everybody should follow their own path Nah, let me know how yours works out.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Apr 25, 2016 - 03:28pm PT
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Tribal Parks
It is $20 now (as of 4/24/16) for a single person up to four in a car to enter Monument Valley. Most roads in park are by private tour only (more dollars). No hiking signs are everywhere. Add then the private residences in the valley adjacent to the land forms. Monument Valley is a no go for climbing without a lot of help from the inside crew (Dine Climbers Coalition). The other parks have specific policy of no climbing.
Canyon de Chelly is national monument, run by feds/tribe. Spider Rock has homes nearby. Plus, the rappels were bad in the 1980's and cant be redrilled as the homes are so close without full consent.
The balance of land is still tribe and official stance is climbing is illegal. I know that the grazing owner of Jacobs Ladder/Teapot is NOT friendly. The grazing owner of the old navajo designated road where Bentwood and Pratilus spires has fenced and closed the area and is NOT friendly. Lots of new fences and new locked gates, the place looks like the village in the Magnificent Seven.
..not everyone is as cool a Chauney, he's so fine.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Apr 25, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
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And the common car is not a 1992 beater truck. Better be american and full size.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2016 - 03:42pm PT
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Hey, it is their home we are talking about. There isn't a lot of money on the res, I know that much, so milking tourists is fine by me. I bet everyone of them happily pays to drive through Monument Valley. Even the 4 corners monument now has a fee, but there a lot of vendors there, and you can stuff yourself with yummy frybread. You pay to visit Yosemite and all other National Parks, Monuments, even some BLM areas. That isn't anything new. You pay to climb in your gym.
Again. It is their home, so they make the decisions that they think are best for them.
I'm sorry that I keep coming back to money, but it is not a bribe. It is a gift. One that they can use for whatever they need.
If they thought that they could make income off of climbers, well, to me we are really no different from tourists. Perhaps we worship the landscape more, in our own way, but we are still outsiders. And I have been treated very well by the people who invited us into their homes. They are nice folks. Still, I wasn't one of them.
I like it when you get inside the res and the radio is all spoken in Navajo. The natives in the Venetie Reservation in the Arctic are far smaller in numbers, and are desperately trying to keep their language alive. In that place, you really feel it when you are a white guy. The best way to get to know people in the native Alaskan villages is to go to church. No kidding, and don't be a jerk. You must be humble. You are in their home, separated by a vast cultural gorge.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 25, 2016 - 06:08pm PT
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Avoiding eye contact and looking down during conversation is a sign of respect.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 25, 2016 - 06:13pm PT
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Interesting perpectives in the last few posts.
One take home idea as rickd pointed out, "The official stance on the Navajo Reservation is that rock climbing is illegal." We as a community may want to respect the laws of the Dineh even if we may not agree with the prohibitions. We likely want to work with the locals to encourage their acceptance of climbing on their lands if this is an activity we seek.
I am blessed to love a traditional Dineh family. It's not my place to speak too much, but try to understand this traditional culture is very much a part of the natural landscape. Our culture has severely disrupted the Dineh way of life. Understand that some of these people are still fighting for their traditional roots and their homeland. If you look at the link I posted earlier, some folks I know are still victims of cultural genocide in the Black Mesa (i.e. coal mining) area. They are being forced from their homes so that the machine can keep growing.
Please treat all Dineh and their lands with respect.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Apr 25, 2016 - 08:53pm PT
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Maybe if we were to just point them to this thread, where they could read about the suffering and ignominy of climbers being shamefully forced to sneak around like we don't own the place, then they could see that we're not like the other whiteys. Alrighty then.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2016 - 07:22am PT
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Well, the Dine climbers have linked this thread to their Facebook thread, so maybe they will post here.
They are the only ones who could really explain things.
This thread is pretty bare without their input.
I started this thread, because I have friends, and I know of, many people who have poached spires on their land. I would like to know what the people there feel about it. The thread was not meant to be "Best way to sneak in to do the Totem Pole."
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Apr 26, 2016 - 08:32am PT
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It would be great to hear from actual people that live there, though I am sure there is no unified position. As a practical matter it's not a particularly easy place to get to and one needs to be a pretty solid 5.10 / 5.11 backcountry sandstone type climber to get much of anything done. Amazing place...
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 26, 2016 - 10:12am PT
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some folks I know are still victims of cultural genocide in the Black Mesa (i.e. coal mining) area. They are being forced from their homes so that the machine can keep growing.
The Black Mesa mine closed in 2005 when the Mohave Station (in Laughlin) shut down. Black Mesa Mine was an ecologic disaster from the start. The Kayenta mine which is on the edge of Black Mesa supplies The Navajo Generating Station in Page AZ. This mine does not use precious water to transport coal like Black Mesa did. Navajo station is the 3rd largest emitter of CO2 in the country
The tribe keeps the mining going at Kayenta by allowing the generating station to continue to operate. This is the tribe doing it to itself. I agree that us anglos have done plenty of bad stuff, but the indians have plenty of blame to shoulder too.
Ask the Hopi how they have been shafted by the Navajo, and how many indigenous cultures did the navajo decimate whne they arrived around 1100 AD, yep, they are relative noobs.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 26, 2016 - 11:09am PT
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This is not a new thing,
as Gordo pointed out Treat the lords of the fantastic as the Fantastic culture that they are.
When we went anywhere,that was 3rd world-ish
we went with the understanding that we were buying NEW gear to Leave.
To further the development of the area, yes,
but also to show respect & share in the whole experience.
The Locals were always competitive to be our guides.(
( one time a frnd/guide was robbed after we left, that was a double edge)
The thing is we would leave them everything and anything they Needed or wanted.
The Whole KIT extra harnesses helmets shoes, ropes, Bolts, hammers ,drills n bits, pins Cams,
everything .
All of the things that we could get that was unavailable to them ...
Money too
Water filters, Food & Medicine, WE Asked what was needed.
we are the Richest SOB"s ever.
Was It bribery, ? Payment?
The Cost Of Doing Business
YES, It is a GIVEN, be humble & helpful, the stories from climbers helping out, in Patagonia, ring true.
V V V V V V
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Apr 26, 2016 - 12:12pm PT
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^^^^^or maybe just being a good guest in someone else's house
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 27, 2016 - 06:49pm PT
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Thanks Jon Beck for more information on the Black Mesa coal mine. I flew over it in a Skycrane about a decade ago and the strip mine was an incredible sight. I've heard the groundwater pumping had a devastating effect on the springs in the area of which many people still rely upon for their drinking water.
My friends live in the Big Mountain area. It is a very complex issue which I am barely qualified to speak about but will anyway in hopes of getting others to do their own research. It is my understanding that the coal companies hired politicians to parcel off lands among the Hopi and Navajo mostly so that we could get to the coal. Around 1974 there was a "Relocation Act" which said the Dineh living around Big Mountain (their home for a hundred years or more), needed to move because this land now belong to the Hopi. Many did move but a core resistance group remains to this day (see link posted earlier). From what I have heard, the media and politicians created this "battle" between the Dineh and Hopi in order to grab the land. Whether one chooses to believe it or not, my friends feel victims of cultural genocide to this day.
My Elder Dineh friends (a couple of whom are half my age) tell me that the Hopi and Dineh Elders long ago reached a mutual agreement where they want the lands left alone, that meaning free from commercial exploitation and development. As mentioned before the traditional Dineh I have met, feel very much a part of the natural landscape. Those spires we seek to climb are a part of their religious and social belief system, an extension of their spirit, soul and physical body.
If for whatever reasons we feel entitled to go onto these Reservations to climb, please visit these sacred lands with good intentions, respect and appreciation for a rapidly disappearing culture. Many of the climbers I've met in the last few decades would be much better suited going to places like Sedona, Grand Canyon, Valley of the Gods, Zion or Canyonlands.
Even if we do not completely understand the reasons why, perhaps we as a community should strongly consider protecting our few remaining wild places as well as our handful of traditional cultures.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 27, 2016 - 09:22pm PT
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[photoid=454207]
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 28, 2016 - 08:30pm PT
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Respect, Reverence, Humility and Harmony for our Mother Earth.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Apr 29, 2016 - 07:19am PT
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There is one in my neighborhood running around that looks like that... good little hunter.
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cornel
climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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May 11, 2016 - 09:28am PT
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Climbed on the Res about 30 yrs ago with a friend working there. Stayed in one of the villages and met a few of the locals. It was my honeymoon believe it or not. Had a great time climbing there. For the first time in my life I understood what it meant to be a minority when I attended a basketball game in Lukachukai... Anyway, If your heart is really set on climbing or jumping on the Res I think it is certainly appropriate to introduce yourself and pay a fee to whomevers land you will be on. Understand clearly, that the Man will arrest you and confiscate your gear if you are caught too. Like several have mentioned here, Indians have gotten the Shaft by the white man. Be Respectful.. Their lives are very difficult as it is...
Lastly had a good friend try to climb Spider Rock back 97 or 98.? He had no understanding as to the Sacradness of this formation to the Navajo.. He gained a new understanding very quickly on the day they decided to climb. About 2 1/2 pitches up someone starts shooting at them with a rifle. Real close, just a few feet from both of them. Well apparently they set a world in rappelling those pitches, being shot at repeatedly until their feet were on the ground... Show Respect - stay off Spider Rock... Or any other formation Indians hold Sacred...
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splitter
Trad climber
HighwayToHell
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May 11, 2016 - 09:34am PT
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Best way to climb on Navajo land
to walk humbly!
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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May 11, 2016 - 09:46am PT
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Let's recap. What's the consensus on Best Way to Climb on Navajo Land?
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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May 11, 2016 - 04:11pm PT
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Very carefully, and respectfully.
Try to contact the people who live near where you want to climb. Offer them a sack of Blue Bird flour, or a tin of coffee or firewood or something.
You can contact me, I live in Kayenta, and there are a hand full of climbs I can do around town here without worrying about getting busted. I know I could get permission to climb Algathla, Shiprock's little brother (see below). Speaking of Shiprock, it seems to get done several times a year, so folks must be making some connections out that way.
Forget about Monument Valley, unless you want to negotiate a hefty payout.
You could hire a local "guide", but you will probably be getting ripped off, and you could still get busted!
Gimmie a call, I'm up for just about anything.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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May 11, 2016 - 07:56pm PT
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So, bribery basically then? Sounds like that's the consensus?
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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May 12, 2016 - 08:57pm PT
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It seems a number of posts mention the word "respect" in this thread. In my experience it means understanding that for some of the people living in the areas of these spires we seek, those mountains are a sacred part of their culture. If our goal in attaining the summits of some of these spires is so that we can post our selfie on instagram, twitter, FB, ST, MP, sell a story or pic, etc, this may be considered disrespectful to some of those traditional locals.
It is my understanding that some of these formations we lust for have had stories and ceremonies ascribed to them for many generations. The spires are a part of the family of some of the people who have lived in these canyons for a long time. I try to imagine what it would be like to have lived out in the desert for half a century in the same area, to know all the trees, know where the hawk nests, to listen to the wind. And then five guys drive up in a Subaru and start pounding their way up the monument in my backyard.
In the end many of those spires protect themselves with their loose, hollow rock, dicey protection, off widths, etc. I believe that with so many "legal" spires around most climbers it seems are best off avoiding these lands.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2016 - 11:05pm PT
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Let's recap. What's the consensus on how best to be a complete dick on Navajo Land?
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hellroaring
Trad climber
San Francisco
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May 13, 2016 - 01:58pm PT
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Escopeta's avatar image almost looks like a squiggly crooked swastika...
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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May 13, 2016 - 04:44pm PT
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Godwin's Law in less than three pages. Is that a ST record?
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rincon
climber
Coarsegold
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May 13, 2016 - 06:34pm PT
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So, bribery basically then? Sounds like that's the consensus?
If you pay someone to climb on their land, how is that bribery?
Anywhere else that'd be considered just paying a user fee.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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May 13, 2016 - 06:45pm PT
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The vast majority of those few climbers who seek chossy towers are much better off paying their "bribes" or "user fees" to the NPS or BLM who control probably as much as 90% of the towers on the Colorado Plateau.
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jstan
climber
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May 13, 2016 - 07:13pm PT
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From reading this excellent thread I come to a conclusion. The best thing to do is forget about your personally needing to climb. Forget about what "you need". Just go down there and find out what the area is all about.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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May 13, 2016 - 07:14pm PT
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If you pay someone to climb on their land, how is that bribery?
Anywhere else that'd be considered just paying a user fee.
Because, as it was stated early on the only way to "legally" climb on the res is by meeting with the parks dept/elders, etc to get official approval. Which, of course, also involves a fee and is usually quite substantial if you even get access to the formations at all. I am told the level of sacredness increases the fee for access but that's unconfirmed.
Paying some local to take you out climbing and paying that person on the promise of not turning you in is the reservation equivalent of paying the street thug with an ice pick to watch your car in the parking lot to make sure nothing happens to the tires.
Essentially, the people taking the money are doing so under the table, hence the term bribery.
It's just that apparently some people on here prefer to use euphemisms and talk about donations of climbing gear and such rather than face the reality and call it what it is.
EDIT: Cool pic Todd
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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May 14, 2016 - 04:13am PT
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It seems a number of posts mention the word "respect" in this thread. In my experience it means understanding that for some of the people living in the areas of these spires we seek, those mountains are a sacred part of their culture.
Many years ago some Native Americans spontaneously invited us to climb a sacred peak on their "rez" near Taos, New Mexico. We jumped on the prospect and drove up there. We never actually got on the peak, however. Instead, we spent the day hauling out dozens of bags of beer cans from the trail on this "sacred" mountain on the reservation.
I guess drinking large quantities of beer and throwing empty beer cans onto the ground is a sacred Native America practice on sacred mountains.
Had a similar experience in western New Mexico. While hiking across the desert I came across a small cave that was filled with pottery shards and numerous large, intact Anasazi pots & bowls, and Anasazi ceramic pipes. The cave was also filled with empty beer cans.
I guess there are significant cultural differences when it comes to respecting sacred mountains. Nonetheless, I respect their authority and wishes, and I won't climb on sacred land even if it's not on a reservation.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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May 14, 2016 - 03:13pm PT
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SLR thanks for sharing those bummer stories.
From my observations many of the Dineh want to live the "white man" culture. They want to be consumers, hold down jobs in the cities, drive fancy trucks, etc. Along the same lines, most of them probably don't give a ratz a$$ where or what we climb.
It is the vanishing traditional culture which seems valuable we respect and protect as much as we are able even if we have no idea why it is important. In my opinion the same holds true for wilderness areas. Even if our entire religion, our entire belief system revolves around our Instagram account, perhaps we should step outside of our self and realize we are part of a larger world community.
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