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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 22, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
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No individual tribal member has authority to grant permission to climb on the reservation, only the Tribal Parks Dept.
This is from Quentin Tutt, one of the climbers on the rez, cross-posted from MP:
Just my two cents... The Navajo Nation still has its ban or restriction on climbing on the Navajo Nation in place. Cedar just happened to speak to the right people and should you pursue this avenue (in which I do recommend) please ask and not poach climbing on our reservation. During our tenure with Cedar and Alex, we still ran into some troubles and even though I'm the 'Navajo Guide' who did take them out there, there are some that still will take advantage of you since those outside of the tribe are 'outsiders'. Please ask for permission when attempting to climb on the Navajo Nation as there are Navajo climbers that can get you access and that's the way we prefer it. Also, we had a blast witnessing these two climbers tear it up on our reservation. We hope we can be of some assistance again down the road. Please visit our Dine (Navajo) Rock Climbers Coalition page on Facebook to get more info on how you can climb on our reservation.
Quentin Tutt - 05/06/2014 10:18:36
Definitely get ahold of the rez climbers on their facebook page if you are interested in climbing there. Bottom line is if you are interested, then the best approach is to help out with their climbing coalition and get as many kids climbing in tribe as possible.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 22, 2016 - 04:38pm PT
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Interesting thread. I've done very little climbing on the Rez despite having lived next door to it for 25 years. With hundreds (thousands?) of towers between Sedona, Grand Canyon, Valley of the Gods and Canyonlands I always figured there were plenty of legal towers to summit without the risk of disrespecting the Dineh.
I'm dear friends with a number of traditional Dineh. Though I haven't specifically discussed climbing with them, please understand this culture has a much different view of the land then most white folks. The Dineh are a part of the landscape, those rocks and spires are their friends and temples, places they respect and worship. Even if you have no understanding of this belief system, we should honor their values.
We all know that rock climbers are often one of the lamest outdoor user groups around. For those of you interested in poaching climbs on the Rez, I would strongly suggest getting to know the people who live in the area where you intend to climb.
The tribal government is as corrupt as our politicians. It does not seem a good idea to pay them to climb. Given the choice it seems wiser to give donations straight to the locals for their benefit.
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thirsty
climber
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Apr 22, 2016 - 06:16pm PT
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I've lived next door to the Navajo Nation for a long time and my work has often brought me in close contact with their people and their law enforcement. However, I have never been “in” with anyone. When I am on their lands in an unofficial capacity to climb, I just try to keep a really low profile and show respect to anyone with whom I come in contact. I definitely don't have any advice for what the best way of gaining or maintaining access is, because I wouldn't pretend to know. I know there are some really beautiful places out there, and I like to visit them. I have seen a couple of practices/attitudes that trouble me:
1)Non-Navajos deciding for themselves that the institutions of the Navajo Nation are so corrupt, dysfunctional or inefficient that its OK to disregard them. Navajos have the right to have their government respected, regardless of what an outsider might think of it. Their process is their own, and maybe its not ideal, but that doesn't mean that an outsider can evaluate it or make it better. Eventually, they will improve their own government if and when they choose to. Also - some of the inefficiency in arranging permits for outsiders is probably intentional. Maximizing economic opportunity isn't necessarily as high on their list of priorities as it is for us outsiders.
2)People/climbers making special friends with particular Navajos as a way of gaining access. This isn't necessarily wrong or deliberately manipulative, but its important to remember that throughout the colonial era most resource exploitation of indigenous lands has started with outsiders befriending individuals of the region. It has meant seducing those individuals in various ways, often with various riches or luxuries or just status enhancing association with the outside visitors and their power and then using them as guides, sources of intelligence, contacts and so forth.... Climbing is a form of resource exploitation. There are some fantastic walls on the Navajo Nation that could eventually be a profitable economic draw for the Navajo Nation. I think we should let them decide for themselves whether or not they want to develop this resource. In the past outsiders have often made the decision for indigenous people about whether resources like oil or minerals are worth developing. Just because its profitable doesn't mean its worthwhile.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Apr 22, 2016 - 06:31pm PT
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Some really informative post and informed points of view on this thread
I am that guy that would have been on the side of the Native Americans during the Indian Wars they and their different tribal cultures have been a big part of my life since I was a young boy
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Apr 22, 2016 - 08:48pm PT
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
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Considering the thousands of towers, spires, buttes and choss piles on the Colorado Plateau which are found on "public lands", most climbers might be best off to avoid climbing on the Dineh Reservation.
If you do decide to climb on "The Rez" it would be respectful to learn about the traditional culture of the Dineh.
Some of my friends have been under siege for a long time by the culture we have inflicted upon them.
Do your part to stay informed.
http://supportblackmesa.org
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:07pm PT
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I climbed Totem pole twice .....
The locals let us.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 22, 2016 - 09:21pm PT
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That's cool Werner, when you did it there were 10k "climbers" in the country.
Now there are 10 million "climbers" and ST, and FB, Twitter and Instagram, and blogs and all kinds of stupid fluff that people use to shamelessly self promote.
I understand that my friends who live on the Rez worship these landforms as a part of their home, their heritage and their being. We might realize that when we approach these towers we are encroaching into some families front yard or their living room. We should be mindful approaching any climb on the Dineh lands and for most of us this is time better spent in more open areas.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2016 - 11:36am PT
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throughout the colonial era most resource exploitation of indigenous lands has started with outsiders befriending individuals of the region. It has meant seducing those individuals in various ways, often with various riches or luxuries
It wasn't just the colonial era. Anytime a person could take advantage of another, through simple and honest ignorance, it is a sort of hate crime, in my eyes. The story of how Oklahoma, which had been the home of many tribes, some of them moved there from the east, was almost completely ripped off in a ten year span is covered in the book, And Still The Waters Run, by Angie Debo. My great grandparents moved to Indian Territory around 1900. It became a state in 1907. Fraud and abuse was rampant. After I read that book, I was ashamed. However, the Chickasaws, who I grew up with, now own the town and are incredibly wealthy off of their casinos. They employ a ton of white people. Being Indian was cool when I grew up, but still, the Chickasaw's were ripped off of most of their lands. It gets complicated, but you need to understand the Dawes Act.
The locals didn't kick BASE jumpers off of the res. The park service did that. I remember on Thanksgiving when our guide invited us into his small home for their feast. They treated us far better than they should have. The old people sat on the floor to eat, while we were seated at the small table. Frybread is good stuff.
Yikes! I didn't think that someone from the res would read this, but jumping there was a huge secret. To be invited, you had to have a clean reputation, it was such a good cliff. Way better than anything around Moab. 600 feet, and overhanging by about 150 feet. You would have to be a dunce to hit the wall, and the worst injury there was a broken ankle once.
As for payment. That was the cost anyone paid for a private guide, and we never went down into Canyon de Chelley without a guide. It bothers me that jumpers do it on the down low today. Not because of the stupid Park Service. What they are doing on Navajo land baffles me.
We scouted both canyons for other sites. We found one spot that was good and you could easily get to the top. We asked who owned the small corn field at the base. It was an old woman who didn't speak English. We offered as much as we could afford for one day of jumping. To us, we were just paying a toll, and to do it without compensation would be insulting. We were trying to be good.
So, on that day, they brought the old woman to the base in a pickup truck, sitting in an old recliner. Her grandkids put her on the ground and built a fire to keep her warm. We all did three jumps that day, landing right next to her. She smiled and laughed at us like we were half crazy. We were as polite as we could have been, because we had already spent many hours driving in and out with our guide, and he told us a lot. I was a climber, so I asked about Spider Rock. I got the feeling that the biggest transgression was for an outsider to even set foot in that canyon without a guide. Those are the rules. Their rules.
It went on for many years. When a person pointed out to the park in Yosemite that we had been safely jumping the National Monument in CDC for years, it caught the attention of the district ranger, and was shut down immediately. So we were then faced with the whole aerial delivery charge, loss of gear, jail, huge fine, just as in Yosemite. We had been getting legal waivers from the rangers at CDC as long as the locals approved.
It is one of the safest sites in the canyons area. Besides, most fatalities these days are wingsuiters, and this was too low for a wingsuit. Too bad Hankster isn't here anymore, because he's jumped it and could toss in his own two cents.
We just obeyed the rules. When I first saw the poverty there, I was deeply humbled. They need more money. And remember what Kit Carson did there.
It is about respect, asking, money yes, but they liked us. Jumping didn't bother them. It was just off of overhanging spots that weren't important in the way that Spider Rock is.
I agree with KevinK. I miss our guide. I miss jumping there. We did that one spot BECAUSE it was infinitely safer than Castleton, the Titan, or Tombstone, which we scouted and are now jumped all of the time.
As for "splatting," it was a very safe site. Hank would agree with this.
Again, it was the Park Service that stopped it. This is well known, and there are documents. Suddenly they wouldn't give us permits, making it just as illegal as El Cap. It was NOT the people. They laughed at us.
As I also said in the OP, our guide's house was plastered with framed shots of BASE jumping given to him by Carl Boenish. I guess you could say that the ones who saw us do it thought that it was cool.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2016 - 12:22pm PT
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I yack too much, but I would never presume to understand the private lives of the people or their culture. We were largely ignorant. All we did was follow the rules, and leave a big tip. We gave rides to anyone holding their thumb out, and in Chinle, that got out. We were OK guys. Acceptable to some point or other.
The only one who benefitted was our guide, and in that one circumstance, the old lady.
I have no idea why they liked BASE jumpers. It was new back then. Really rare to witness, much less do.
As I drove up the old highway 666 (now renumbered) a month ago, I noticed some pretty big and steep walls on some of the volcanic plugs south of Shiprock. Shiprock isn't alone, but I have no clue as to rock quality.
It is an out of the way place to go climbing, though, but to be invited to join a group of jumpers (it was always limited to 4 of us max, but I'm not sure why), was an honor, because you were sworn to secrecy about the place. It was handed down by word of mouth, and really was a big secret. I feel a little strange spilling the beans after 30 years even.
Back then it wasn't fatalities that were a problem. They were rare due to the low numbers of jumpers. Across the globe. The problem was skydivers. The same skydivers that broke the rules and ruined a legal El Cap. They were like the bikers of the sky, and happily broke any rule in front of them.
That was why CDC was such a secret. We didn't want an invasion of skydivers, and managed to keep it that way. Nobody went there without at least one of the group having been there before. It was a small number, and we went there about 3 times a year. Other groups also went, obeying the same rules that had been worked out to protect the site. Protecting a site is HUGE among BASE jumpers.
Skydivers burned more than just El Cap. To get on TV back then, all you had to do was drop a dime and a TV station would jump at the chance to put you on the news. We despised this type. We were doing dozens of jumps a year, almost always at night, and very early in the sport, a typical skydiver would do it with the wrong gear and no experience. That and the drinking. And the press. They were too rowdy. We managed to keep CDC a secret for many years. The skydivers never found out about it.
Once, Doug Robinson showed some of my slides to Choinard for inclusion in his catalogue. He wanted to buy the one above, of me jumping barefoot. We didn't even consider selling it. It was too big of a secret. They used a different one off of El Cap eventually. You couldn't burn El Cap any worse by those days. Judge Pitts was in full swing.
There really was a difference between the 25 odd hardcore BASE folks back then than the skydivers, though. Now skydiving is pretty mundane, and nobody swills beers between loads, risking getting grounded or kicked off of a DZ. I'm sure some still do it, but back then beer and skydiving were as connected as beer and the deli ever were. Basically, skydivers were out of control. So they had to shut El Cap down. Nobody was really surprised. They were breaking all of the rules without a thought.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 23, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
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My wife's tribe is in the same boat with regard to drugs, language loss, and being forced to settle long-standing lawsuits with the government for pennies on each dollar owed the tribe for broken promises, treaties and contracts. Hundreds of years later it's still very much an invisible and under-the-table continuation of genocide by other means.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 23, 2016 - 06:40pm PT
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How is how.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Apr 23, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
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Best way to climb on Navajo land
How about not at all . . .
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 24, 2016 - 05:56am PT
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Do not try impersonating The Howler.
The Navajo Indian reservation is home to many amazing creatures.
One of them is called The Howler. It is a mysterious being believed to have killed dogs and livestock. Elders in the community call these predators Skinwalkers, and others call it the Navajo version of Bigfoot, particularly news people.
The reservation even has a special law enforcement agency that only responds to paranormal reports such as ghosts, witchcraft, UFOs and even Skinwalkers, or if you prefer, Bigfoot. (Nah, nothing like a Skinwalker…)
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 24, 2016 - 06:00am PT
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Only bilagáana with something to hide have camper shells.
You mean, something they don't want stolen from the locals.
If you really want to climb on Rez land, pay your bribe, hopefully to the right person that can keep the dogs at bay, and be on your way.
Nation building on Navajo land is about as likely as turning the Mujaheddin into Christians.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2016 - 12:32pm PT
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Yeah, of course you are right. Look. This is a civilization which is much older than our own, or at least from the time that whites first showed up into the area.
I've read the super good book, Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee, and one of the war crimes committed against the Navaho was a massacre committed by Kit Carson, who was a famous early character involved in the earliest forays into the vast west in the early 1800's. It is an important story. Here is a synopsis from wiki:
Canyon de Chelly
Carson wanted to take a winter break from the campaign. Major Carleton refused. Kit was ordered to invade the Canyon de Chelly. It was here that many Navajos had taken refuge. Historian David Roberts writes, "Carson's sweep through the Canyon de Chelly in the winter of 1863–1864 would prove to be the decisive action in the Campaign."[47]
The Canyon de Chelly was a sacred place for the Navajo. They believed that it would now be their strongest sanctuary. Three hundred Navajo took refuge on the canyon rim at a place called Fortress Rock. They resisted Carson's invasion by building rope ladders and bridges, lowering water pots into a stream, and keeping quiet and out of sight. These three hundred Navajo survived the invasion. In January 1864, Carson swept through the 35-mile (56 km) Canyon with his forces. The thousands of peach trees in the canyon were cut down. Few Navajo were killed or captured. Carson's invasion, however, proved to the Navajo that the white man could invade their country at any time. Many Navajo surrendered at Fort Canby.[48]
By March 1864, there were 3,000 refugees at Fort Canby. An additional 5,000 arrived in the camp. They were suffering from the intense cold and hunger. Carson asked for supplies to feed and clothe them. The thousands of Navajo were led to Bosque Redondo. Many died along the way. Stragglers in the rear were shot and killed. In Navajo history, this horrific trek is known as Long Walk of the Navajo. By 1866, reports indicated that Bosque Redondo was a complete failure. Major Carleton was fired. Congress started investigations. In 1868, a treaty was signed, and the Navajo were allowed to return to their homeland. Bosque Redondo was closed.[49/
So I can understand their feelings towards whites. This goes back to that massacre, and up to today, where well-meaning politicians try to help the people, but in many cases, probably hurt them.
A trip to Gallup is revealing. One time a friend came out of a liquor store, and a native asked him for 3 of his beers. My friend, who was a really good guy, asked why? The guy replied, "Because you have three and I have none." Now talking about an alcoholic isn't really funny, but his barter, taken alone, made sense. Share.
White culture is very selfish, I think, but I'm not intimately familiar with life and politics on the res.
My original point was meant to mean that we need to pay for what we take from these people, because much has already been taken. I drove through the res 6 weeks ago. You see cookie cutter government housing. All of the houses look alike, and although small, are as big as many places I have lived in with plenty of rommmates. So hopefully they have shelter. From what I can see, they have few economic prospects. There isn't much oil in the area, except up around Aneth. I believe that there is a big coal mine on res land. I just know that when oil showed up in Oklahoma, a state originally devoted to Indian tribes, through fraud and plain old taking advantage of a people with different values, managed to strip them from their land in only 15 years. That is where I live, and when I read the whole story, it made me ashamed of my ancestors, who certainly took advantage of the Choctaw and Chicasaw to some degree, but they were small. Not tycoons or anything like that.
When you know the whole story, any ethical person will become extremely uncomfortable, and our history of how Indians were conquered physically and economically is a sad part of our history.
So first of all, you have to be respectful. Don't talk. Just listen. Dan, our guide, told us stories all day as we had to drive an hour out of the Canyon to pack and go jump again. He was a great guy. As an aside, one morning we were driving back to Chinle. It was cold. In the single digits. We picked up a man on the road, and he was freezing, over 15 miles from town. He was very thankful, but on the road to town he asked us to pull over at a mobile home, where the bootlegger lived. We refused, and drove him to Chinle and dropped him off with his family. Alcohol is prohibited in most Alaskan bush villages, because for some reason, it affects the native americans far differently. Alcoholism leads to all sorts of bad things, such as child abuse.
Alcohol is a problem with native americans. I have a good friend, who is Otoe and Pawnee, and he had to deal with it. A brilliant guy. A lawyer whose dad was an engineer. His grandfather was a chief, and my friend still has the huge headdress. I've seen it, covered with eagle feathers.
I still say that money at least seems best, but it has to come with humility. Cash is convertible to whatever it is that they need. If they need corn and you give them peaches, it might not be the best. Why we don't give them a living wage, even if they can't find "normal" work, we certainly owe it to them.
So any climbing there, in my mind, should require a permit, perhaps like a driver's license, and it should cost several hundred dollars. Their rules should be carefully followed. I think that respect is the first thing required to use THEIR land. We ask permission to climb on crags on private white lands. How is this any different, other than the res is the home of the entire nation.
I never went back to jump the Antelope House exit after the NPS shut it down. To do so would require illegally stepping foot in the canyon without a guide ( a BIG rule), and that was irrespectful as well as taking without paying. Others do go there now and then, because it is a terrific site. A little on the low side, but with today's gear, slider down jumps just don't see the accident rate that other types of BASE do.
In Idaho Falls, the locals legalized jumping from the Perrine Bridge. People travel from across the country to do it, and it has been done tens of thousands of times. A guy did it 201 times in a 21 hour period. There have been accidents, but only because there are no rules, and people do stupid stuff.
If the Dine opened up that exit as a legal site, it would bring in a ton of jumpers, quite willing to pay a reasonable fee to jump it. It was found around 1980-81 by Carl Boenish, as he scoured the 4 corners areas looking for cliffs. The first jumps were part of a TV show, but those that followed were done by established rules. They weren't onerous.
I don't know whether or not they would accept that number of people, but it could keep one of the tourist trucks operating all day. Those trucks hold at least a dozen people, and it is how most people see the Canyon, which is an idyllic space.
I'm just throwing ideas out there to see if any stick. Certainly it would be different, but tourism is big in Chinle, and it could greatly increase the tourism.
A slider down jump from a 600+ foot object, with a sand landing area, is now a simple affair. Rarely are there fatalities. At the most cliff strikes, like what happened to Ammon in Moab. You would have the occasional rescue. There would be impacts (not literally). It is a choice for the Dine to make on their own, but that cliff is the most overhanging cliff that I know of in the whole western plateau. I've opened 180 off there, and it was simple to turn around. So it is a 4 star exit. It is out of the way, but so is a trip to Twin Falls, and if a jumper could rack up 50 cliff jumps at such a great site, it might work. Of course, the 500 foot cliffs around Moab are free. On BLM land, and there are a ton of exits. Oddly, you can't jump in Arches NM, but you can jump to your hear's content across the river a thousand yards away.
I saw that the Dine Climbers linked to this thread on their Facebook page. I considered nuking it, because I didn't get it right, and am a little embarrassed. For now, I will leave it up.
I mean well, but any decision will have to come from them. It is their land.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 24, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
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I drove through three days ago to visit some friends who work for child welfare on the rez and for Gallup City Limits.
In the two days we visited, they took in a total of 10 children that were excavated from their homes.
One was a 7 year old girl, brutally sexually abused (repeatedly), she was very cute.
Another was an 8 yr old boy who we have since found out was being given heroin along with his parents. He is currently suffering from withdrawals, another was an alcoholic at age 7 I think and was going through DTs.
The other was a 10 yr old (the oldest child they will take) who literally went outside to play, got scuffed up on the swing set, and came back to tell our friends (volunteers I will add) that he is going to call child protection services and claim he was beaten while in their care. Specifically in order to get more money.
They have volunteered across the US and Africa. They said this is the absolute worst they have ever seen in their lives, bar none.
I will repeat.....nation building on the Navajo Res is not an objective I would like to see our government pursue any further.
If you want to climb, or do anything really, your best chance of success involves leaving your moral compass in the bedside drawer.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 24, 2016 - 01:22pm PT
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You are so f*#ked up it's hard to put into words. It takes folks like you to mistake genocide for nation building. Always glad when people like you self-identify themselves so there's no guessing involved.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Apr 24, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
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Those are some horrible stories but I am with Healye on this one, you sure do have a weird ass way of looking at s. h. i. t. I guess we all do in our own way but most of us don't feel compelled to air it on the internet
Edit
Referring to Essiepropecia's post
vvvvvvvvvvvvvv Some shotgun shells fell out of your pocket. Share some more deep thinking
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 24, 2016 - 03:38pm PT
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Two delusional dreamers saying I'm the one that has a weird way of looking at things. Typical.
The amount of sh#t you people are willing to try and rationalize still amazes me.
The topic of the thread is "The Best Way to Climb on Navajo Land?" and I answered it better than any of you co-dependent, mush-mouthed, fantasy-land, retards are willing to admit.......by bribing them. That is still the single best way and it doesn't change simply due to the fact that your delicate sensibilities can't wrap your head around it.
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