Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
Ward-
Good points on Huxley.
In a Western Democracy, wouldn't the "State sponsored gratifications" typically be minumums and destructive excess be a product of capitalism?
Don't forget to throw in the cultivation of public distain for Progressivism and Humanism, as theats to free markets.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
Allow me to chime in;
In a Western Democracy, wouldn't the "State sponsored gratifications" typically be minumums and destructive excess be a product of capitalism?
Depends how we define things doesn't it. State-sponsored gratifications in a Western Democracy could be everything from welfare, food-stamps, and professional medical care to smart-phones and internet access.
Destructive excess needs to be defined as well. Greed is a starter, as is selfishness, and the constant need for gratification. For more of what feels good.
Don't forget to throw in the cultivation of public distain for Progressivism and Humanism, as theats to free markets.
Depends mostly where you approach it from. Free-marketeers would tell you that free-markets are demonized as insensitive, greedy, and reckless while Progressivism and Humanism are more sensitive, benevolent, and inclusive.
And since the perception is greed=bad, and benevolence=good, you can see how this conclusion can be reached. With generalizations and stereotypes. Neither are good tools for an accurate representation.
Need more nuance, to get into the weeds a bit more. A bit more cowbell too...
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
"If there is a god, I believe in him"
Interesting enough coming from an insightful, introverted, philosophical writer.
More to contemplate, considering he'd had a mind expanding, going away present from Timothy Leary shortly before.
And, btw, the dead witch of the island Too funny!
But, don't forget
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
Currently, we in the US are in a great place as a society. Amazing if you consider our relatively brief history. We were somewhat blessed with good examples of past failures in societies.
I think it's one of the best systems overall for governing, the one laid out in our Constitution.
A society with our current 'troubles' is doing just a little too good. We could have worse problems, much worse.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
Like if Drumpf were to get elected?
Sorry, had too...
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
We could have worse problems, much worse
As my old friend USMC retired Colonel George Bristol - a veteran of special ops all over the world - said to me several times over the years, "John, thank your lucky stars you live in the USA."
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
I think the answer to the earlier question is: peace, self-sufficience, serenity. An inner peaceful feeling. No real worries, satisfied despite much of anything. But also happy with oneself, without guilt.
What do people have in common who resist authoritarianism or anarchy? (Not Jaybro's Huxley question, but that was good !)
|
|
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
So true- were the 50's (the era that conservatives latch to) better than today?
A resounding no!
|
|
Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
|
|
Interesting discussion.
I like bluering better now that he's tackled the monster.
Hope you're doing well blue boy, you sound like it:-)
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
To say "I teach literature, therefore your thoughts on writing are irrelevant" is nothing more than a display of insecurity.
or perhaps to prod us all to better content in our posts... if I make an argument that is, in fact, flawed, I wish to know about it, so someone with sophisticated critical skills becomes very important.
I have found the opposite to be true, that those who display insecurity are generally the ones being criticized. In fact, Ghost, you have criticized me (though not publicly) for what you regarded as my making ignorant assertion on another thread. Since you are an expert in that particular subject, I had taken your criticism to heart and thought twice before making similar responses along the lines of that subject. Which I thank you for...
While we all have thoughts on topics like literature, due to our unregulated access to that literature, it is not true that all those thoughts have merit. Someone who has taken the study seriously, and sycorax has, should be accepted here as a boon, not a bane... and if you aren't secure enough in your own education to accept criticism, well, that's your problem.
As for great literature, sycorax reminds us that that determination can be highly dependent on our culture... and her observation regarding the role of female characters in BNW immediately resonated with me, Huxley was writing about men not about human conditions, and that is an interesting point of view to consider.
I am not sure I'd put BNW in the top 5 now that I've read a bit broader than when I first encountered it as a teenager... but as is often the case, it is easy to view all those parts of our teenage years as the best... and given this demographic... I read Camus extensively as a teenager, in both English and French... a cliché response to the dramatic transition from childhood to adulthood via hormonal overdose... lots to think about in those books, but as with anything else, your thoughts increase in sophistication with continued exposure...
when was the last time you read BNW? or did you just stream it on Netflix?
It's easy to rank something in the top 5 if all you've ever read on that list was 5 books...
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2016 - 09:49am PT
|
Like I said Sycorax and her thoughts on literature are fine. I didn't do anything but post some quotes from others, and it was she who started talking about being out of ones depth. She seems to have edited that bit out, which is ok.
I may not be a literature teacher, but as I also previously said, my OP was basically questioning where we are as a society, not commenting on Huxley as a writer. That is another assumption she made.
Again, I borrowed someone else's quote about BNW being among the greatest novels of the 20th century.
She is clearly a Shakespeare and Faulkner fan, having taken her avatar from the Tempest, and where she's from is Faulkner's imaginary county. It's all good, but the point remains that my original thought was about us as a slothful techno-society, not about Huxley, Joyce, Shakespeare, or Faulkner as writers.
All that being said, Ghost is the sh#t, to me. He has proven himself to me in numerous ways over the years.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
Ed, I'm in full agreement with you that criticism is important. Necessary, in fact, if one wishes to grow and expand one's skills and knowledge.
My point wasn't that sycorax shouldn't criticize, or shouldn't be here. Rather that the way s/he went about it was insulting and arrogant.
And, for what it's worth, I considered using you (yes, it's true) as an example of someone who, as an expert, often offers criticism in a respectful way.
Obviously, I offended you, and for that I am sorry -- but sycorax did come across as an arrogant twit.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
May 26, 2016 - 12:25pm PT
|
Fascinating topic. Nice work, suvival.
While I think the topic has enough intellectual interest on its own, I found myself particularly drawn to the literary criticism discussion, but not because of the focus on literature. I always get amused when I see lists of allegedly great books, music, art, etc., compiled by self-styled experts, because the items on the list often have very narrow appeal.
I will confine my specific comments to music, because I, at least, am definitely out of my depth in evaluating the greatness of literature or the lack thereof. In my opinion, we have good reason for calling the opposite of classical music popular music. Modern classical music has produced very little that most people want to hear. The composers and critics may think otherwise (my younger daughter is a classical composer, so I know at least one who thinks otherwise), but listeners vote with their ears and their feet, and they disdain most of the new classical music of the last 100 years.
Was it Van Morrison whose song had the lyric "The girls walk by, dressed up for each other?" In classical music, the composers, professors, players and critics go around composing and playing for each other, but regular listeners get no consideration. I hope literature doesn't end up in that same bin of solipsism as most of modern classical music seems to find itself. As long as enough people continue to read - and are willing to buy books - I guess I shouldn't worry, but I can't shake that thought.
When I was on the Board of Trustees of Fresno Pacific University (as a "diversity" appointment. The College is supported by the Mennonite Brethren, of which I am not a member) I was asked to share one of my favorite Bible verses. I chose Ecclesiastes 12:12b - "Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh."
I did that partly to stir the pot, but partly because long exposure to academia can lead to a focus on triviality. We really need to work to avoid "knowing more and more about less and less," and, I would add, with less and less relevance to ordinary people.
John
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
May 26, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
|
Was it Van Morrison whose song had the lyric "The girls walk by, dressed up for each other?" In classical music, the composers, professors, players and critics go around composing and playing for each other, but regular listeners get no consideration. I hope literature doesn't end up in that same bin of solipsism as most of modern classical music seems to find itself. As long as enough people continue to read - and are willing to buy books - I guess I shouldn't worry, but I can't shake that thought.
Yes--"Wild Night."
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
|
May 26, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
|
And to think, it was written by Van the Man well before 1984 (right there around 1968).
"Wild Night" was first recorded during a session with Lewis Merenstein as producer at Warners Publishing Studio in New York City in autumn 1968
I wasn't there, but it's true.
↕
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
May 26, 2016 - 12:42pm PT
|
I remember it being in my junior year at Berkeley, which would make it more like 1971, but I'm too lazy now to look it up.
John
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2016 - 01:27pm PT
|
Oh good, new world nutball is back.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!