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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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The hands on the levers in the Soviet Union and the United States, in order to control their populations, have played this exact question out. A real life death struggle between social systems ensued.
Individual liberty and freedom vs. community and sacrifice- both philosophies born from a third social condition: anarchy and revolution.
One system became unviable and decayed from State imposed intellectual darkness, unfulfilled desires and emotional lethargy.
The other State is obese, self indulgent, willingly ignorant and avaricious.
In one system, those that governed, slowly suffocated the will of the people.
In the other system, the governed, through free will, are suffocating themselves.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Well played, Contractor!
The common problem with all these scenarios is very similar. They always use opposites, and they assume the protagonists are incapable of change.
That is very logical, but very un-human.
EDIT: Free-will and liberty vs, State control and societal conformity. Is it really anarchy vs authoritarianism?
What are the 2 real polar opposites? I think those 2 come lose. I have an idea...
One system became unviable and decayed from State imposed intellectual darkness, unfulfilled desires and emotional lethargy.
The other State is obese, self indulgent, willingly ignorant and avaricious.
Interesting that both end in undesirable results to an outside observer. Those that resist in each scenario, what are they after, what do they both have in common? What do they seek?
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Interesting ^ contractor ^
Though I think it's almost impossible to compare the US to russia, or china, or Cuba, even, based on the basically feudal nature of the communist countries, before their revolutions.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Contractor, quit yer day job, Orwell's ghost is beckoning.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Great questions- I do wonder what's in common, or uncommon with those who resist and those who submit?
Origins may lead to some answers- or more questions.
Resistance promoting self vs. resistance in promotion of community may lead us back to where we were...
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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MattB-
True, one was a feudal revolt and one was a merchant class revolt.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Yep, There are always consequences and rarely do we appreciate which ones will be the most significant or in what way. I think that's why the the Hippocratic oath starts with "first do no harm." Doing nothing has consequences as well.
Trivia question ( and yes I've mentioned this before) what were Aldous Huxleys last words, and the circumstances leading up to them?
Ive always loved that Goethe quote....
Guess I better go climbing
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Great questions- I do wonder what's in common, or uncommon with those who resist and those who submit?
Not an easy answer, but one worth some thought.
Origins may lead to some answers- or more questions.
Resistance promoting self vs. resistance in promotion of community may lead us back to where we were...
I don't think these are the best examples, but I know what you mean I think.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Partial credit Walleye😎....
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Huxley and 'Berto Hoffman did, I think.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Absolutely stripped-down: hope?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Not the part I was looking for, Blue....
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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27am PT
Great questions- I do wonder what's in common, or uncommon with those who resist and those who submit?
Origins may lead to some answers- or more questions.
Resistance promoting self vs. resistance in promotion of community may lead us back to where we were...
It's all about the benjamins
It takes faith and trust to work for the community first, hoping it ultimately helps the individual
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Absolutely stripped-down: hope?
Maybe for the oppressed, that would work. Self-respect or dignity are too vague I suppose.
But that is not a common thing shared with the liberated, independent, and free. Their curse of ambivalence, avarice, or selfishness can only be lessened with...?
They are almost more difficult problems to contend with than mere authoritarianism. They are problems that go even deeper than the mere desire to be free.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Very true- primal facets of survival amplified and rationalized by the pleasure centers of the human mind.
i.e. Me: Drinking a nut brown ale, watching Step Brothers, blazed as all get out, hoping to roll around with the wife after the kid's go to bed.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Both were correct. Orwell in the short term by clearly outlining the vast totalitarian regimes taking place in Mao's China, Stalin's Soviet, and Hitler's Reich.
It must be remembered that Orwell wrote 1984 and Animal Farm as satires of those appalling regimes mentioned above and was doing so from the perspective of himself a former adherent of socialist doctrines. As such his writings were more in the way of descriptions of on-going political calamities and less of millenarian prognostications; or of realities yet to be realized in some distant future time. He did however set 1984 in a futuristic context. On his part this was no doubt a grim recognition that he considered totalitarian tyranny and its many derivative justifications as unresolved nightmares from which the human race was yet to fully awaken.This thinking of Orwell's was vindicated in short order by the eventual embracing of leftist/communist/socialist ideals by the baby boom generation in the U.S. and Europe beginning 15-20 years after his death.
Huxley in the long term by adumbrating many of the features of current consumer societies.
Huxley's world has yet to fully manifest itself but appears to be currently realized in many ways. At least on the surface.
Nevertheless, the jury is still out on Huxley's nightmare. At this stage it is far from certain whether future social orders will drown in pleasure and state-sponsored gratifications ,as he may have surmised. The pleasure-producing machinery could easily go haywire long before it can produce much of a deleterious result . Much like the life of a meth-head or an alcoholic.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2016 - 01:07pm PT
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I love how threads can take on a life of their own.
My OP was made as a question about where society has come to, or is headed.
It really had little to do with Huxley as a writer, as the dead witch of the island somehow assumed.
My personal feelings are that her thoughts are most welcome here, as someone who is infinitely more well read than I. I do love literature, but only as an amused observer, not an OCD junkie.
Some of that sh#t is so high 'n' mighty that it makes my little pointy head hurt. But I like to pretend that I have thoughts on such things!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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At this stage it is far from certain whether future social orders will drown in pleasure and state-sponsored gratifications ,as he may have surmised. The pleasure-producing machinery could easily go haywire long before it can produce much of a deleterious result . Much like the life of a meth-head or an alcoholic.
Yeah, and I like the analogy. Perfect.
EDIT: The pleasure-producing machinery could easily go haywire long before it can produce much of a deleterious result .
Or someone could recognize the ill effects and counter them, manage them, or avoid them.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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THINK
Here's Doug's web site by that title, the pre-hacked version. So the links are still there. :)
http://www.projectgnap.org/doug/www.think.ws/
Locker, Doug even provides a definition of the word "think". I remember when he was arguing by phone with one of the lexicographers of some dictionary. The lexicographer, when challenges on current usage of some words, replied that a dictionary is, at best, an historic record of a language at a given point in time.
I hope that helps. :)
ff
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