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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 5, 2016 - 02:24pm PT
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What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. *What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. *Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egotism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. *Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. *Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. *Huxley feared that our desire will ruin us.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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I was distracted by irrelevance and the centrifugal bumblepuppy
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Huxley feared that our desire will ruin us
That's the McDonald's business plan as near as I can see.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Are you referring to LaVoy's masterpiece? But yeah, wisdom, seeking, understanding, caring slip away without a whimper
But material burdens weigh heavy
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Yep. And if you expand a bit; those who push against Orwell's vision get tortured and subjugated, those who push against Huxleys get trivialized by common neurosis.
Good to see such a post.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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I say there is more ignorance now... all data (and analysis) is available at a few clicks, no reason to think on your own.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2016 - 03:21pm PT
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We used to depend on newspaper journalism and TV news almost exclusively. These media are still available but are now not the only source of knowledge.
The problem is the validity of those sources, and peoples willingness to dig for the truth. I can't tell you how many people I know who basically don't read!! Paper pages or digital images either one. They want to be fed visual images, of which there are too many to count.
I fear that Huxley was right, we are being buried in our own bullsh#t.
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LOWERme
Trad climber
NM
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But I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin. - Brave New World
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Did Joyce or Faulkner delve into imagined societies?
Jim, no doubt many MANY great world saving works are done now, as always.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2016 - 03:56pm PT
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Tme's passage ranks Huxley well below the likes of Joyce and Faulkner in literary merit. He couldn't write a dynamic, as opposed to static, female character to save his life.
In 1999, the Modern Library ranked Brave New World fifth on its list of the 100 best English-language novels of the 20th century. In 2003, Robert McCrum writing for The Observer included Brave New World chronologically at number 53 in "the top 100 greatest novels of all time", and the novel was listed at number 87 on the BBC's survey The Big Read.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Yes, read ulysses. Internalization of the world? The last bit is as good erotic lit as some of the bible. Very creative, too many lit references for me. Tried Finnegan's Wake.... need a better brogue I ken
Edit. Faulkner, historic fiction?
Yes very brilliant writer... the tortured souls within most novelists makes me hesitant to give them much credence beyond what i give a typical barfly
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2016 - 04:07pm PT
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BNW is not Hamlet, King Lear or Ulysses. You are out of your depth here.
Who said it was, Captain Cousteau? I don't recall asking to be at your depth anyway.
I only found the passages that I originally posted very interesting and somehow relevant to the modern synthetic world we live in.
It's not my fault that some other people called BNW among the greatest novels ever written.
Sheesh, lighten up Mr. Diving Bell.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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What are those quotes from, survival?
Back on track, bread and roses drumpfs all else
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I teach literature. Do you?...
You are out of your depth here.
Do you have any idea of the level of contempt most writers have for critics and teachers of literature? Maybe the people you are insulting on this thread are not the only ones out of their depth.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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BNW is not Hamlet, King Lear or Ulysses. You are out of your depth here. The ST scintist or engineer resembles BNW's John the Savage, who spends much of the novel misquoting Shakespeare with perfect confidence. (sycorax)
I detect religious intensity here, not unlike Largo's raw awareness exhortations.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2016 - 04:48pm PT
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What are those quotes from, survival?
MattB, I simply lifted them from Wiki as I was skimming numerous things, working on re-inspiring my youngest son on reading. They have all been great readers forever, but in this case the boy has set it all aside for a bit too long.
18 year old Amber went out today to buy BNW at a used bookstore.
I was trying to pry him away from a video, and he has a HP Lovecraft book from City Lights that he put down. I wanted to nudge him back into it. That's what started me off on the whole deal.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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While clearly not the stylist or poet that Joyce was, Huxley had an insightful view of the future and where we're going that Joyce didn't have. But they were each trying to do different things.Joyce talked more about innate human nature."yes my mountain flower" while Huxley was piecing out the future that that nature brings.
To get back to the original question, I thing we are moving through an Orwellian mode, more and more into a Huxley one. But where do we go now? I thing Malcom McLaren, Andy Warhol, and Keith Haring , illuminate some of this. " The media, IS the message." or to misquote Gill Scott Heron, The revolution is the televising.
I'd like to hope we are more following Samuel Beckett " I can't go on, I'll go on"
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Also, I think a useful contemporary literary lineage to point toward the future is A. Huxley- William Burroughs- William Gibson. There are gaps, but that covers a lot of it.
Edit, Nice Jim!
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Not one mention of Island? That was a masterpiece. With a strong female character.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Do you have any idea of the level of contempt most writers have for critics and teachers of literature?
and that is relevant, how? writers aren't all good at teaching or at criticism, they are good at writing (if they are good).
The amount of contempt that writers have for anything probably doesn't amount to much of significance, unless it inspires the production of good literature.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Yeah, island was great... another utopia, but this one overtaken by a larger, more militarized foreign enemy.
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WBraun
climber
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Huxley feared that our desire will ruin us.
Huxley was clueless mental speculator.
Desire is the root of the living entity.
It's impossible to destroy life itself ......
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Desire is the root of the living entity.
It's impossible to destroy life itself ......
+1
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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and that is relevant, how?
It is relevant in that -- I hope -- it points out the attitude of snotty superiority on display in sycorax's posts.
To say "I teach literature, therefore your thoughts on writing are irrelevant" is nothing more than a display of insecurity.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Island - here and now
BNW- I think God has manifested himself as an absence
Doors of Perception - anti soma
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2016 - 07:35pm PT
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Jaybro, ekatApplePimp was just talking about Doors Of Perception to me today!!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I was trying to pry him away from a video, and he has a HP Lovecraft book from City Lights that he put down. I wanted to nudge him back into it. That's what started me off on the whole deal.
I went through a lot of similar issues when my sons were growing up. I don't know if my experience will help, but for what it's worth...
I'm a writer by trade, and have been in love with the written word since my dad read to me as a toddler. But even so, I never once said to my sons that books were better than TV. There is plenty of useless, mind-numbing crap in print, and there is good stuff on TV.
And even when it came to the real shitty stuff that was on TV, I didn't lay down any law about "You can't watch that sh#t." What I did do was, after they had watched some piece of absolute video sh#t, ask them to talk to me about it. To clue me in on why they thought it was worth watching.
Only had to do that a couple of times and they got their own message.
Bottom line for me was that I didn't really care what they read or watched, but rather that they learned to think. I believed that if I could help them learn to think, the reading would take care of itself.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I failed with my son in that regard. But he is an exceptional human being without being well read.
Then you didn't fail, did you?
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Huxley feared that our desire will ruin us
That's the McDonald's business plan as near as I can see.
How did I miss this? Reilly, that is hilarious, curious, and seems to be true. :)
Ghost, so few children have parents who can think critically, and thus cannot pass those skills on to their children. I am not sure why this is so. But children who have been taught critical thinking, whether well-read, formally educated, professional, or potter they may become, will have a significant advantage in making their way and finding their true path. Go Socratic method! And bravo to those who use it! I observe my adult daughters sometimes and all they are accomplishing, and I stand in delight at how well they think. But there were days when they were still school when we wondered . . .
But Moose, what we as parents most value, I think, is being able to say, "he is an exceptional human being " as we smile.
I am reading W. H. Murray's last book. I have one of his quote above my credenza:
"But when I said that nothing had been done I erred in one important matter. We had definitely committed ourselves and were halfway out of our ruts. We had put down our passage money--booked a sailing to Bombay. This may sound too simple, but is great in consequence. Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, the providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way. I learned a deep respect for one of Goethe's couplets:
Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it!”
W.H. Murray
Source: The Scottish Himalaya Expedition
As long as we are discussing words. :)
Thank you for this interesting discussion.
feralfae
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Too funny Survival, "a latticework of coincidence" - from another apple product.....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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No " Plate o shrimp" for them,Jim!
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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that the moment one definitely commits oneself, the providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way.
I've heard this quote for decades. Is this the original original?
Thank you x1000 Feralfae.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Bread and Circus
It is to be prayed that the mind be sound in a sound body.
Ask for a brave soul that lacks the fear of death,
which places the length of life last among nature’s blessings,
which is able to bear whatever kind of sufferings,
does not know anger, lusts for nothing and believes
the hardships and savage labors of Hercules better than
the satisfactions, feasts, and feather bed of an Eastern king.
I will reveal what you are able to give yourself;
For certain, the one footpath of a tranquil life lies through virtue.
Juvenal
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cintune
climber
Ollin Arageed Space
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Today's situation is 1984 for the dissident, and Brave New World for the complacent. Because the observer influences the reality, as we should all know....
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Flip Flop asked:
I've heard this quote for decades. Is this the original original?
I don't know. I had that quote (framed) above my desk at ETS and then at Northwestern during the 70s and 80s, and many visitors would comment on it. I do know Murray wrote it, and his writing is articulate and entertaining as well as informative. And he was a great mountaineer as well. I have never heard anyone say it wasn't his own words and I take it as given that those are his exact sentiments, especially since his writing often reflects his philosophy, which he honed and polished while a POW during WWII.
But, yes, I have long loved that quote, and it has inspired me to think carefully at times of what I want to do, and once the decision to proceed is made, to tax the Universe, Providence, and Creation with my expectations of assistance.
And it has always worked: as soon as I "buy the ticket" a new energy seems to emerge, carrying me along from fortuitous intercession to fortuitous intercession as I make my way toward my goal. I am often amazed and delighted when I review the things that have been achieved when I am fully committing to an endeavor. Yes, there is the work of it, but the path is definitely cleared for me by unexpected gifts of serendipity. :)
I am glad you enjoyed it.
feralfae
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Yup...
What is your thought on the matter, locker?
Edit: obviously "thinking" is always done, it is the depth or breadth of thought that counts
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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"But when I said that nothing had been done I erred in one important matter. We had definitely committed ourselves and were halfway out of our ruts. We had put down our passage money--booked a sailing to Bombay. This may sound too simple, but is great in consequence. Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, the providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way. I learned a deep respect for one of Goethe's couplets:
Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it!”
W.H. Murray
Source: The Scottish Himalaya Expedition
I find the last 2 lines somewhat inspiring, but the rest to be trivial. Of course when you make certain 'life decisions', a whole sea of events are set into motion, altering your destiny.
Is the beauty you find in the passage the notion that people just never stop to ponder such things? That we do not realize every decision we make has consequence, sometimes quite profound consequence?
EDIT: Oh, and Huxley was right. He called it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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"I say there is more ignorance now... all data (and analysis) is available at a few clicks, no reason to think on your own."...
I think you're correct. Not 100%, or course, but overall I think you're correct.
It has a lot to do with what technology has brought us, what it has done to our lives. It is a lot of good, but with some potentially dangerous side-effects.
I think it is much easier, obviously, for people over 40 to see this. We have one foot in the digital-age, and the other in books and the analog world. We grew up without certain 'distractions'. Had others. Was one 'better for us' than the other? I think so, but it's not so cut/dry as you would think.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Just the game of trying to remember something, or the speculations that were necessary to discuss anything, have become unnecessary, even obnoxious to some.
Just look it up
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Just look it up
are you asking me to "Google it"? ..hehe
When speculation becomes something tedious or obnoxious, we are really f*#ked.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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The hands on the levers in the Soviet Union and the United States, in order to control their populations, have played this exact question out. A real life death struggle between social systems ensued.
Individual liberty and freedom vs. community and sacrifice- both philosophies born from a third social condition: anarchy and revolution.
One system became unviable and decayed from State imposed intellectual darkness, unfulfilled desires and emotional lethargy.
The other State is obese, self indulgent, willingly ignorant and avaricious.
In one system, those that governed, slowly suffocated the will of the people.
In the other system, the governed, through free will, are suffocating themselves.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Well played, Contractor!
The common problem with all these scenarios is very similar. They always use opposites, and they assume the protagonists are incapable of change.
That is very logical, but very un-human.
EDIT: Free-will and liberty vs, State control and societal conformity. Is it really anarchy vs authoritarianism?
What are the 2 real polar opposites? I think those 2 come lose. I have an idea...
One system became unviable and decayed from State imposed intellectual darkness, unfulfilled desires and emotional lethargy.
The other State is obese, self indulgent, willingly ignorant and avaricious.
Interesting that both end in undesirable results to an outside observer. Those that resist in each scenario, what are they after, what do they both have in common? What do they seek?
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Interesting ^ contractor ^
Though I think it's almost impossible to compare the US to russia, or china, or Cuba, even, based on the basically feudal nature of the communist countries, before their revolutions.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Contractor, quit yer day job, Orwell's ghost is beckoning.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Great questions- I do wonder what's in common, or uncommon with those who resist and those who submit?
Origins may lead to some answers- or more questions.
Resistance promoting self vs. resistance in promotion of community may lead us back to where we were...
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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MattB-
True, one was a feudal revolt and one was a merchant class revolt.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Yep, There are always consequences and rarely do we appreciate which ones will be the most significant or in what way. I think that's why the the Hippocratic oath starts with "first do no harm." Doing nothing has consequences as well.
Trivia question ( and yes I've mentioned this before) what were Aldous Huxleys last words, and the circumstances leading up to them?
Ive always loved that Goethe quote....
Guess I better go climbing
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Great questions- I do wonder what's in common, or uncommon with those who resist and those who submit?
Not an easy answer, but one worth some thought.
Origins may lead to some answers- or more questions.
Resistance promoting self vs. resistance in promotion of community may lead us back to where we were...
I don't think these are the best examples, but I know what you mean I think.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Partial credit Walleye😎....
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Huxley and 'Berto Hoffman did, I think.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Absolutely stripped-down: hope?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Not the part I was looking for, Blue....
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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27am PT
Great questions- I do wonder what's in common, or uncommon with those who resist and those who submit?
Origins may lead to some answers- or more questions.
Resistance promoting self vs. resistance in promotion of community may lead us back to where we were...
It's all about the benjamins
It takes faith and trust to work for the community first, hoping it ultimately helps the individual
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Absolutely stripped-down: hope?
Maybe for the oppressed, that would work. Self-respect or dignity are too vague I suppose.
But that is not a common thing shared with the liberated, independent, and free. Their curse of ambivalence, avarice, or selfishness can only be lessened with...?
They are almost more difficult problems to contend with than mere authoritarianism. They are problems that go even deeper than the mere desire to be free.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Very true- primal facets of survival amplified and rationalized by the pleasure centers of the human mind.
i.e. Me: Drinking a nut brown ale, watching Step Brothers, blazed as all get out, hoping to roll around with the wife after the kid's go to bed.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Both were correct. Orwell in the short term by clearly outlining the vast totalitarian regimes taking place in Mao's China, Stalin's Soviet, and Hitler's Reich.
It must be remembered that Orwell wrote 1984 and Animal Farm as satires of those appalling regimes mentioned above and was doing so from the perspective of himself a former adherent of socialist doctrines. As such his writings were more in the way of descriptions of on-going political calamities and less of millenarian prognostications; or of realities yet to be realized in some distant future time. He did however set 1984 in a futuristic context. On his part this was no doubt a grim recognition that he considered totalitarian tyranny and its many derivative justifications as unresolved nightmares from which the human race was yet to fully awaken.This thinking of Orwell's was vindicated in short order by the eventual embracing of leftist/communist/socialist ideals by the baby boom generation in the U.S. and Europe beginning 15-20 years after his death.
Huxley in the long term by adumbrating many of the features of current consumer societies.
Huxley's world has yet to fully manifest itself but appears to be currently realized in many ways. At least on the surface.
Nevertheless, the jury is still out on Huxley's nightmare. At this stage it is far from certain whether future social orders will drown in pleasure and state-sponsored gratifications ,as he may have surmised. The pleasure-producing machinery could easily go haywire long before it can produce much of a deleterious result . Much like the life of a meth-head or an alcoholic.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2016 - 01:07pm PT
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I love how threads can take on a life of their own.
My OP was made as a question about where society has come to, or is headed.
It really had little to do with Huxley as a writer, as the dead witch of the island somehow assumed.
My personal feelings are that her thoughts are most welcome here, as someone who is infinitely more well read than I. I do love literature, but only as an amused observer, not an OCD junkie.
Some of that sh#t is so high 'n' mighty that it makes my little pointy head hurt. But I like to pretend that I have thoughts on such things!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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At this stage it is far from certain whether future social orders will drown in pleasure and state-sponsored gratifications ,as he may have surmised. The pleasure-producing machinery could easily go haywire long before it can produce much of a deleterious result . Much like the life of a meth-head or an alcoholic.
Yeah, and I like the analogy. Perfect.
EDIT: The pleasure-producing machinery could easily go haywire long before it can produce much of a deleterious result .
Or someone could recognize the ill effects and counter them, manage them, or avoid them.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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THINK
Here's Doug's web site by that title, the pre-hacked version. So the links are still there. :)
http://www.projectgnap.org/doug/www.think.ws/
Locker, Doug even provides a definition of the word "think". I remember when he was arguing by phone with one of the lexicographers of some dictionary. The lexicographer, when challenges on current usage of some words, replied that a dictionary is, at best, an historic record of a language at a given point in time.
I hope that helps. :)
ff
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Ward-
Good points on Huxley.
In a Western Democracy, wouldn't the "State sponsored gratifications" typically be minumums and destructive excess be a product of capitalism?
Don't forget to throw in the cultivation of public distain for Progressivism and Humanism, as theats to free markets.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Allow me to chime in;
In a Western Democracy, wouldn't the "State sponsored gratifications" typically be minumums and destructive excess be a product of capitalism?
Depends how we define things doesn't it. State-sponsored gratifications in a Western Democracy could be everything from welfare, food-stamps, and professional medical care to smart-phones and internet access.
Destructive excess needs to be defined as well. Greed is a starter, as is selfishness, and the constant need for gratification. For more of what feels good.
Don't forget to throw in the cultivation of public distain for Progressivism and Humanism, as theats to free markets.
Depends mostly where you approach it from. Free-marketeers would tell you that free-markets are demonized as insensitive, greedy, and reckless while Progressivism and Humanism are more sensitive, benevolent, and inclusive.
And since the perception is greed=bad, and benevolence=good, you can see how this conclusion can be reached. With generalizations and stereotypes. Neither are good tools for an accurate representation.
Need more nuance, to get into the weeds a bit more. A bit more cowbell too...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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"If there is a god, I believe in him"
Interesting enough coming from an insightful, introverted, philosophical writer.
More to contemplate, considering he'd had a mind expanding, going away present from Timothy Leary shortly before.
And, btw, the dead witch of the island Too funny!
But, don't forget
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Currently, we in the US are in a great place as a society. Amazing if you consider our relatively brief history. We were somewhat blessed with good examples of past failures in societies.
I think it's one of the best systems overall for governing, the one laid out in our Constitution.
A society with our current 'troubles' is doing just a little too good. We could have worse problems, much worse.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Like if Drumpf were to get elected?
Sorry, had too...
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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We could have worse problems, much worse
As my old friend USMC retired Colonel George Bristol - a veteran of special ops all over the world - said to me several times over the years, "John, thank your lucky stars you live in the USA."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I think the answer to the earlier question is: peace, self-sufficience, serenity. An inner peaceful feeling. No real worries, satisfied despite much of anything. But also happy with oneself, without guilt.
What do people have in common who resist authoritarianism or anarchy? (Not Jaybro's Huxley question, but that was good !)
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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So true- were the 50's (the era that conservatives latch to) better than today?
A resounding no!
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Interesting discussion.
I like bluering better now that he's tackled the monster.
Hope you're doing well blue boy, you sound like it:-)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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To say "I teach literature, therefore your thoughts on writing are irrelevant" is nothing more than a display of insecurity.
or perhaps to prod us all to better content in our posts... if I make an argument that is, in fact, flawed, I wish to know about it, so someone with sophisticated critical skills becomes very important.
I have found the opposite to be true, that those who display insecurity are generally the ones being criticized. In fact, Ghost, you have criticized me (though not publicly) for what you regarded as my making ignorant assertion on another thread. Since you are an expert in that particular subject, I had taken your criticism to heart and thought twice before making similar responses along the lines of that subject. Which I thank you for...
While we all have thoughts on topics like literature, due to our unregulated access to that literature, it is not true that all those thoughts have merit. Someone who has taken the study seriously, and sycorax has, should be accepted here as a boon, not a bane... and if you aren't secure enough in your own education to accept criticism, well, that's your problem.
As for great literature, sycorax reminds us that that determination can be highly dependent on our culture... and her observation regarding the role of female characters in BNW immediately resonated with me, Huxley was writing about men not about human conditions, and that is an interesting point of view to consider.
I am not sure I'd put BNW in the top 5 now that I've read a bit broader than when I first encountered it as a teenager... but as is often the case, it is easy to view all those parts of our teenage years as the best... and given this demographic... I read Camus extensively as a teenager, in both English and French... a cliché response to the dramatic transition from childhood to adulthood via hormonal overdose... lots to think about in those books, but as with anything else, your thoughts increase in sophistication with continued exposure...
when was the last time you read BNW? or did you just stream it on Netflix?
It's easy to rank something in the top 5 if all you've ever read on that list was 5 books...
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2016 - 09:49am PT
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Like I said Sycorax and her thoughts on literature are fine. I didn't do anything but post some quotes from others, and it was she who started talking about being out of ones depth. She seems to have edited that bit out, which is ok.
I may not be a literature teacher, but as I also previously said, my OP was basically questioning where we are as a society, not commenting on Huxley as a writer. That is another assumption she made.
Again, I borrowed someone else's quote about BNW being among the greatest novels of the 20th century.
She is clearly a Shakespeare and Faulkner fan, having taken her avatar from the Tempest, and where she's from is Faulkner's imaginary county. It's all good, but the point remains that my original thought was about us as a slothful techno-society, not about Huxley, Joyce, Shakespeare, or Faulkner as writers.
All that being said, Ghost is the sh#t, to me. He has proven himself to me in numerous ways over the years.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Ed, I'm in full agreement with you that criticism is important. Necessary, in fact, if one wishes to grow and expand one's skills and knowledge.
My point wasn't that sycorax shouldn't criticize, or shouldn't be here. Rather that the way s/he went about it was insulting and arrogant.
And, for what it's worth, I considered using you (yes, it's true) as an example of someone who, as an expert, often offers criticism in a respectful way.
Obviously, I offended you, and for that I am sorry -- but sycorax did come across as an arrogant twit.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 26, 2016 - 12:25pm PT
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Fascinating topic. Nice work, suvival.
While I think the topic has enough intellectual interest on its own, I found myself particularly drawn to the literary criticism discussion, but not because of the focus on literature. I always get amused when I see lists of allegedly great books, music, art, etc., compiled by self-styled experts, because the items on the list often have very narrow appeal.
I will confine my specific comments to music, because I, at least, am definitely out of my depth in evaluating the greatness of literature or the lack thereof. In my opinion, we have good reason for calling the opposite of classical music popular music. Modern classical music has produced very little that most people want to hear. The composers and critics may think otherwise (my younger daughter is a classical composer, so I know at least one who thinks otherwise), but listeners vote with their ears and their feet, and they disdain most of the new classical music of the last 100 years.
Was it Van Morrison whose song had the lyric "The girls walk by, dressed up for each other?" In classical music, the composers, professors, players and critics go around composing and playing for each other, but regular listeners get no consideration. I hope literature doesn't end up in that same bin of solipsism as most of modern classical music seems to find itself. As long as enough people continue to read - and are willing to buy books - I guess I shouldn't worry, but I can't shake that thought.
When I was on the Board of Trustees of Fresno Pacific University (as a "diversity" appointment. The College is supported by the Mennonite Brethren, of which I am not a member) I was asked to share one of my favorite Bible verses. I chose Ecclesiastes 12:12b - "Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh."
I did that partly to stir the pot, but partly because long exposure to academia can lead to a focus on triviality. We really need to work to avoid "knowing more and more about less and less," and, I would add, with less and less relevance to ordinary people.
John
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dirtbag
climber
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May 26, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
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Was it Van Morrison whose song had the lyric "The girls walk by, dressed up for each other?" In classical music, the composers, professors, players and critics go around composing and playing for each other, but regular listeners get no consideration. I hope literature doesn't end up in that same bin of solipsism as most of modern classical music seems to find itself. As long as enough people continue to read - and are willing to buy books - I guess I shouldn't worry, but I can't shake that thought.
Yes--"Wild Night."
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zBrown
Ice climber
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May 26, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
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And to think, it was written by Van the Man well before 1984 (right there around 1968).
"Wild Night" was first recorded during a session with Lewis Merenstein as producer at Warners Publishing Studio in New York City in autumn 1968
I wasn't there, but it's true.
↕
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 26, 2016 - 12:42pm PT
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I remember it being in my junior year at Berkeley, which would make it more like 1971, but I'm too lazy now to look it up.
John
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2016 - 01:27pm PT
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Oh good, new world nutball is back.
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| Messages 1 - 80 of total 80 in this topic |
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