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peter croft
climber
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Well said, Todd.
I would also say that Mussys without the gates are safer than open cold shuts because they (the Mussys) swivel. Having said that the only time I've heard of the rope coming clean out of any open hooks was that time that gravity reversed itself...oh wait, that never happened.
Mussys are the most durable, cheapest and easy to replace units out there.
The most dangerous situations I've seen in the Gorge are the ones where people have clipped in with their own draws or, worse, cordalettes. It is a regular occurrence to then see the least experienced toprope up and get utterly confused as to what they should unclip and when. I have seen far too many nightmarish close calls like this.
Everything else being equal the simplest solution is always the safest - less chance for human error.
Worrying about Mussy hooks is like freaking out about poisonous snakes while driving in rush hour - during an earthquake.
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overwatch
climber
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Wow! big day in super topo history thank you for posting sir. Love your work
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
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Agree with Todd and Peter except that odd things can and do happen and this may be a one off. Colleen did everything correctly except to anticipate what a severely twisted rope can do with an open hook anchor (oh wait, a severely twisted rope can easily fight gravity and twist out of an open gate. It happened). If she had gone through the normal (for her) sequence of clipping the bolts, rethreading the quick links and lowering off (she's no newb and gets the sequence right) she would not have the problem. I've seen confusion on threading all sorts of anchors, not just hooks. And isn't this because we've made climbing more convenient? I agree that many newer climbers not accustomed to untying and rethreading can get it wrong. But I'd still rather take the time to ensure safety. Open hooks need to be constantly weighted to ensure the rope staying in place. Ropes placed in enclosed anchors stay put.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
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Folks, I'm truly sorry I brought it up.....
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overwatch
climber
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Why? You stated your answer to Mr. Croft's comedic observation, why the petulance?
I think she shifted/unweighted the anchor at the wrong split second and the twisted to hell rope popped out ala Murphy, not so far fetched?
Edit;
Agreed, I never liked open anchors either and don't have that much experience with them.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 02:31pm PT
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Overwatch. Exactly what happened. Petulance wasn't aimed at Mr. Croft. More like saddness aimed at butt sniffers. And I will humbly disagree. I don't like worn out, open mussy's. To me, they give Mr. Murphy more of a chance.....
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splitclimber
climber
Sonoma County
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If you got Peter to post then there should be no apologies. ;)
I've experienced Peter's observations with difficulty in setting a simple toprope setup for a follower in an effort to minimize wear on the hooks. Clipping into quicklinks or hangers usually pinches gear and makes cleaning and a good TR anchor difficult. It tempts you to just want to TR through the hooks. I've never wanted to attach any gear to the hooks though.
If Todd and other locals say they really are easy and inexpensive to replace, then I'm generally OK with them as anchors.
Glad it turned out OK Tony and Colleen.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Wst, my response was not meant to imply you were inexperienced or unsafe. I recognize you have been around here for a long time and are experienced. Was just listing the sequence that I use and find good for me, that I use with other experienced climbers. As Peter points out, this method (which involves rapping) would not be the best option with inexperienced climbers. It also is not optimal on an overhanging route that you have lead and want to clean on the way down. For that throwing the rope in the mussys and lowering is great.
It's a good topic. Don't be sorry you brought it up.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
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Phylp. No slight taken. You're always respectful. I practiced what you preach until last weekend. I will go back to that. And that was my point. I consider myself and Colleen fairly experienced. But twisted ropes plus open hooks was a new one on both of us. Lucky. My argument is closed anchors and learning to use them competently, to me, is much safer. Ease of use makes it easier to keep the inexperienced inexperienced. There's no need to aquire skills if you don't use them or never aquire them.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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I'm curious why use 1/2" on sport anchors and 3/8 on lead bolts?
This was an ASCA sponsored operation and I was following orders from the "Boss".
EDIT: Inventory issues as I recall.
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jstan
climber
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Worrying about Mussy hooks is like freaking out about poisonous snakes while driving in rush hour - during an earthquake.
An observation. During the Landers quake residents of Landers said the ground was covered with rattlers that had left their burrows.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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This was an ASCA sponsored operation and I was following orders from the "Boss".
Chief, you remember incorrectly. We prefer all 1/2" if possible, and if I were to specify it'd be 1/2" pro bolts and 3/8" anchor bolts on single-pitch stuff (since the anchor can never see high forces).
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Greg... You are correct as far as the ASCA's preference but I believe that the issue at the time I did the A-Hills was the lack of stock of 1/2" SS's in your inventory and we agreed to use the 1/2"ers primarily on the Anchors to keep it all uniform. Thus I was sent what the ASCA had left of SS 3/8"ers for the "pro" bolts (which were far less than the Anchors that critically needed replacement) and we agreed that I was to utilize them for such. We also agreed that when the ASCA's stock of 1/2"ers got replenished, I could return and replace the 3/8" with 1/2". AAMOF, I still have the empty box of that the 3/8" SSers came in as it was the last one you all had.
Again, correct me if I am wrong.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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You're probably right, there were times we were just out of bolts.
Besides, the top rock at A-Hills is typically so soft/grainy that 3/8" would be sketchy...
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Rolfr
Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Besides, the top rock at A-Hills is typically so soft/grainy that 3/8" would be sketchy...
Yup. That is why we agreed on keeping the Anchors all 1/2" SSers as all of the Pro bolts that I replaced were in good solid rock. The lack of materials, both bolts and Mussy's from the supplier's, is also why it took me so long to complete the project. No fault of yours of course.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Rolfr, that is CRAZY. I have never seen a rope like that in nearly 40 years of climbing. What POS brand is it? Similarly, re. the OP: NEVER had a kink or loop like that exist in a rope under tension--never. Some weird vodo sh#t goin' down in the 'Bamas, that's what I'm thinkin'. Smear goat blood over yer tent fly, people. Locusts are next.
BAd
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Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Lol, for realz BAd.
In the past 8 years that I've been living in Bishop, I've lowered off of mussy's hundreds of times. During that same time, my friends have cumulatively lowered off of mussy's thousands of times. I've never heard of anyone's rope getting that funked up.
What does kink the sh#t out of ropes, is lowering off of single quick links attached to bolt hangers. This setup is usually the result of people stealing lower-off biners from anchors and is yet another reason in favor of mussy's, as they're harder to pilfer and less useful to a would-be thief.
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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I think I have read through most of the comments. I always, if possible, clip my draws directly into the hanger. Or the closest link to the wall. I don't think this was mentioned.
When I am climbing with a gang of folks and we're cragging; I have two long draws with lockers on both ends that I clip directly into the hanger under whatever is there whether its chain or a quick link. And use that as a top rope set up.
I have seen Mossy's burnt almost all the way through, from people incorrectly using them, to top rope or lowering the climber at Owens and Clark.
It pains me to see people lowering and and top roping off existing anchors. It is so disrespectful to the sport and the people who spent their time and often their own money so we can have fun.
Tony I am glad you posted this because there have been so many positive comments and by whom. For the most part climbers get to learn about our sport from threads just like this one. It is this kind of stuff that keeps me coming back to ST.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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You need to unroll a new rope, as if unwinding it off a spool. Then, you butterfly coil the rope, with each loop being cancelled by the next, opposing loop. There shouldn't be any twists in the rope.
Another method is to toss the end off a high cliff, and shake all the twists out of the rope.
If you simply pull one end out of a brand-new rope's coil, all of the loops in the coil are converted into twisting of the rope. If you then load the rope, the twisting can cause fibers to shift, and create the Ma Bell line seen in the photo.
A figure-8 or Munter Hitch rappel can also twist your rope.
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