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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Excellent post phylp! Thank you.
Chief. What bolts are being used? 3/8"x3" wedge? SS or steel?
ALL Anchor bolts that were deemed needing replacement were done so with the ASCA mandated and supplied 1/2" X 3 1/2" SS Five Piece POWER bolts. (178 total Oct 2010- Apr 2011)
ALL Protection Bolts that were deemed needing replacement were done so with the ASCA supplied and my personal supply of 3/8" x 2 1/4" SS Five Piece POWER bolts. (63 total Oct 2010- Apr 2011)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mussy Hooks are available at hardware stores and their quality seems to vary. Some have been used here recently thar were very hard to clip.......they didn't open freely.
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overwatch
climber
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Those Fixe rigs look like the s h i t. Still not clear whether OP was lowering through the hooks or rapping off them. Also aren't you weighting the anchor before you unclip?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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they didn't open freely.
And those Jim were indeed the ones that the ASCA supplied me with.
One process that Greg Barnes demonstrated to me and highly suggested I do is to flatten the insides of the sharp "Horseshoe" gates prior to actually placing them to prevent any potential for the rope being cut on low angled routes. Which I did to all the gates, regardless the routes they were put on.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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two of these done deal, they suck for TR ing!! but last a long time. Less links in the system. Or one and a Chain from above lowest link level with the Metolius monster hanger. Yes expensive, stop being so cheap.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Jeff ...
Great Call on the MET MONSTERS. Those are in fact what I personally installed on many of my personal FA's. They are simple to install, utilize and are indeed the shet!!!
More importantly, they forced lazy individuals to place a separate system for TRing thus extensively extending their life.
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overwatch
climber
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Even better! Obviously purpose designed.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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I am with Jeff.....
Or one and a Chain from above lowest link level with the Metolius monster hanger. Yes expensive, stop being so cheap.
This is what we have been doing for the last few years, Scott Ayers does his anchors in Cochise this way.... Its brilliant, it is impossible to TR through this set up.
And I don't think its all that more expensive and you only carry one heavy chain up to the crags.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Those metolius rap hangers have some good advantages, but the worst down shot, two actually, that Ive seen have been the curling of the rope after pulling it down, those things put a mean curl on stuff. The second, and might be not related to the rap hanger itself, but to the fact that the anchor point cant be extended, its smack at the bolt. Some anchor locations dont lend themselves to the logistics of those things. I feel the same about the fixe hangers with the rings on them. They seem to end up placed well craftsmanship-wise but in unfortunate locations.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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We rarely use Mussy hooks, the ones we had were all bought through the Rubber Room in Bishop and used only for eastside anchors (and a few at Tahoe). We don't have any anymore, and have never ordered any directly (I'd need to set up a US Rigging account), locals in Bishop do a great job of collecting donations and buying them for Owens replacement.
Mussy hooks aren't great for slab anchors or any anchor where the hook is pressed against the rock - that's when you get rope twisting (just like Fixe single ring anchors or Metolius rap hangers). Careful crimping of the back of the gate like Chief shows is the best way to avoid the sharp back of the gate shredding the rope sheath. This makes them sketchy for anchors where people might clip both hooks then traverse to a nearby anchor and clip those, then lower off - the unweighted inner hooks of each set may have the rope grinding across the back of the gate.
A few years back we got a deal on a small number of the fancy Fixe Draco carabiners (like Chief's photo, but just the biner), and I've sent those out to the eastside and Tahoe as well, but that was a one time thing, they are just too expensive. Nice though!
Overall very few areas in the U.S. use open anchors and thus there's little interest. Most very steep sport routes with open anchors use easier-to-clip steel gym biners or just extra biners from climbers who swap out worn aluminum ones frequently.
One thing with the Metolius fat rap hangers is that they are NOT stainless steel, even in dry desert areas they will rust as the coating wears off. Even with zero use the coating will be slowly worn off by weathering.
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Rolfr
Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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I doubt that the mussy hooks themselves are the reason for twisting the rope, the problem is lowering of parallel placed anchour bolts or mussy..
Most people are still under the misconception that anchour bolts need to be placed parallel to equalize the system. Redundancy is still achieved with offset anchours, and preferable for lowering, to avoid twisting the rope.
If you still are concerned place chains on parallel anchours to avoid twisting the rope.
Parallel metolius rap hangers or short parallel mussy hooks with single quick links are meant for rappelling not lowering.
The modern mind set is an expectation for convenient lowering, I doubt that attitude will change.
Good luck getting the kinks out of the rope, a hard way to learn that lesson.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Hey Chief,
I'm curious about that new rig you showed there. It looks like the 'biner type device is lying parallel to the rock, so if you run your rope through two of them it will be twisted.
I would think you'd want the back, the spine, of the 'biner to face the rock?
K
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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mussies ok with me. always thankful for the work you guys do.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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...It will rotate outwards...
No troll Locker :-) It looks to me like the hanger is in the way of rotation.
I guess I'll have to wait 'till I see one in real life.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
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Here's a better picture, showing the weighted position:
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 10:32am PT
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So:
Phylp. All I've ever done until now is set up gear through anchors to lower off. Always have been super safe and taken the time to set up bomb proof lowering, rap or TR. I am well versed in anchors and have never been remotely accused of setting unsafe anchors whether rapping, gear or otherwise.. Colleen lead a climb, got to the hooks, clipped the hooks to lower off. The rope was twisted. When she leaned back to lower off a significant 'pop' occurred and she was out of one of the hooks. There were no keepers on the hooks. I was pondering having her clip in but was worried that any un-weighting might un-clip the other hook. But convenience can make even the best of us miss something like not paying attention to what's in front of us. I will never lower off hooks again and will go back to setting up raps through enclosed areas of whatever anchor is available. I watched other climbers. None of them set up through closed links to lower. All clipped the hooks.
The conversation seems to be moving towards other forms of anchors. As I said before, I never have installed open anchor systems. Always a closed system be it chains, rings or whatever. Convenience anchors seem to mean trouble as they can easily be set up for failure where as a closed system demands that one set up for a safer system.
Question: Should mussy's be replaced with mussy's or should they be replaced with a closed system? Will people complain? Ofcourse just because we came close doesn't mean things should change. There doesn't seem to be a lot of accidents due to mussy's any more then any other type of anchor system. But if open anchors can lull experienced safe climbers into unsafe conditions.....My fault ofcourse but I don't like having options. I'd rather be forced to set up safety.
Ksolem: Good question. I noticed the same thing. But you could configure them to face straight out using links like the mussy's.
edit: MisterE beat me to it...Also Greg brought up good point about mussy's positionally not good on low angle surface. I need to re-check the anchor we were using and if I remember correctly it was on low angle. I was thinking about the same thing after Colleen lowered off. And for those like the Chief and Greg who've done a lot of bolting etc. at the Hills. If I were to put up a climb there, am I required to stick to the local edict and put in mussy's or convenience anchors like the ones above or can I put in another type of anchor? What if walk off is available? Chief, thanks for your hard work...
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Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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The problem here was not that they were mussy hooks, but that the hooks were damaged and should have been replaced. Would you clip a biner with a broken or missing gate?
The mussy's were adopted because they are fast to clip, easy to replace, relatively inexpensive, and safer since you never go off belay. Other than the freak sub-gorge bolt failure this year, all of the fatal (non-alpine) climbing accidents that I'm aware of in our area have been the result of miscommunication or incorrect procedures regarding rapping/vs lowering. (1. The guy who decked and died on Paradise, 2. The girl who decked and almost died on Member's Only, 3. The guy who decked and died in Clark Canyon this year.) To my knowledge, there has never been a serious accident due to a mussy hook anchor failure.
Personally, I would much rather replace an occasional worn pair of hooks than have to carry someone out because they screwed up threading or rapping.
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overwatch
climber
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yeah I was brain farting big time there with my question about lowering or rappelling thanks for the clarification
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Chief: Great work with all the anchors.
I'm curious why use 1/2" on sport anchors and 3/8 on lead bolts?
[quote]//ALL Anchor bolts that were deemed needing replacement were done so with the ASCA mandated and supplied 1/2" X 3 1/2" SS Five Piece POWER bolts. (178 total Oct 2010- Apr 2011)
ALL Protection Bolts that were deemed needing replacement were done so with the ASCA supplied and my personal supply of 3/8" x 2 1/4" SS Five Piece POWER bolts. (63 total Oct 2010- Apr 2011)[///quote]
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Bad Climber
climber
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+1 what Todd said.
+!!!!!!11111 with thanks to The Chief for his work.
While we're talking replacements and such: Anyone got the gear to pull and replace bolts on the Slab Route (10a) at the Alabama Hills? Old, scary button heads, including a spinner or two. Anchors are good, however.
BAd
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