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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 7, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
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Was climbing at Alabama Hills last weekend. Miss Colleen did a climb and clipped two mussys. These are the narrower of what appears to be two sizes. The keeper clips were gone (they're cheesey to start with). The rope was twisted from climbing so when she leaned back to lower off the twists torqued the rope out of one of the two hooks. Rather then risk the same thing happening to the other one by pulling back in, she lowered off of one hook. I don't like tow hooks or cold shuts and never have. I've seen climbers move above them and seen ropes disengage from them. They've made climbers lazy and some never learn to thread chains or rings. Problem is you need to use them on many climbs to get off. Scary. Be careful with them, especially if your rope is twisted to the point where it begins to bunch. Having to clip the mussys and go through the tying and untwisting and re-tying back in would have worked but things happened quickly. Anyway, I don't like open anchor systems.
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the czar
climber
meyers, ca.
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? climbing thru the mussys, lowering off mussy? or just, rappelling off mussy, like they are intended?
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
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She lead a climb and clipped them to lower off in the usual way....
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Ed H
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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I'm glad it all turned out well for you and Colleen
This thread needs pics
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Is Colleen very light?
Will you say more about the rope- like, really stiff in addition to being extremely kinked?
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Ed H
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Looks awesome
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
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Thanks for the thoughts and pics Ed. Ya, hefe, the rope was kinking and, as you know, the rope kinks grow or shrink depending on how it's weighted and changes. And, from Ed's photos, you can see the retaining clips intact on those but most hooks I come across lost the retainers. The retainers aren't very strong like a carabiner gate. As mentioned, I've seen climbers clip retainerless hooks, move above them and unhook them because no retainers. I won't use mussys on climbs I put up. Also, is it anyone else's observation that mussys come in different sizes at climbing areas? These seemed to have a narrower slot then others and Colleen said she had to finesse the rope into the hooks.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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JUNK FROM THE GET GO>>Messy Hooks never like them. those are Smash Links dude. soft steel.
Not the same thing as in your photo above. Monkey Links are round bent metal for tire chains and much smaller.
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Ed H
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Monkey links?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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My $0.02, if you come across a pair of Mussy Hooks with missing keeper gates as in this instance, you need to be very, very, very careful how you weight the rope. If you really don't want to take a chance at something happening then just feed the rope through the quick links to which the Mussy Hooks are attached. That's not ideal, but is better than having the rope come unhooked from the hooks.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Owens River Gorge in the mid Nineties had every convenience anchor grooved out to almost half it's original thickness. I hope things are different these days.
The problem at Owens River Gorge is not with substandard hardware getting worn out. The problem there is that the rock dust that gets into your rope is very abrasive. The ASCA has been using Mussy Hooks on many of the popular routes, but even those beefy steel hooks don't last a season. Best to rappel.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Having to clip the mussys and go through the tying and untwisting and re-tying back in would have worked but things happened quickly.
Rule #1 that will keep you and everyone else alive... Slow down and do it right the first time.
No matter how much time it takes do it right, ALWAYS work together as a team and if either sees a potential dangerous issue, speak up and insist the other member fixes it and does it right. Check and recheck the system to ensure all is good and the system has no potential for failure.
The ASCA has been using Mussy Hooks on many of the popular routes, but even those beefy steel hooks don't last a season. Best to rappel.
Yup. They don't last long cus folks are too lazy and use em for TR's etc instead of setting up their own system off the hangers to do so.
These seemed to have a narrower slot then others and Colleen said she had to finesse the rope into the hooks.
Just the standard ASCA issued Mussy's. I know. I placed em over five years ago. Over 82 sets throughout the A-Hills with material supplied by the ASCA. The ones in Ed H's photo are my cammo paint job.
EDIT:
Since my days of rebolting most of the A-Hills over a period of seven months, my understanding is the ASCA has shifted away from Mussy's and are now issuing these bad boys...
So if anyone out there wants to take the initiative and go replace the totaled Mussy's at the A-Hills, contact Greg Barnes (ASCA) and have him get you set up with the new and improved Fixe Sport Anchors and associated materials then go get to work.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2015 - 11:46pm PT
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Good advise all! I was going to have her go through the routine of treating it like a clip in with gear and thread lower off like bhilden suggests but I was afraid that if she unweighted she'd pop off. Also, does anyone think mussy's twist the crap out of ropes? I ended up pulling the long end of the rope through after every climb to untwist it.
We don't have a lot of experience with mussy's. We don't normally climb in areas where they're used but since moving to the East Side we've really enjoyed going to the Hills when it's too cold everywhere else. I will get in touch with Greg. I'd be happy to replace any worn or broken hooks as I see them.
Edit: Chief. What bolts are being used? 3/8"x3" wedge? SS or steel?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Any type of hook or quick clip for a top anchor sucks. It simply teaches people to be stupid, lazy and complacent. all traits that can get you killed climbing.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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People can get themselves killed with the most fastidiously equipped anchor. I love mussies and Im not dead as far as I can tell.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Always carry a 'bail' 'biner or two. Stop and think - Check the bolts and chains - clip in go off belay - add an extra piece or two - then evaluate the risk, leave the extra if it makes the anchor safer than it would be without.
do not just slip the rope into a slot without checking the whole anchor rig out.
The chief's post covered most of the issues that have become common place .
I was schooled that this answer shows my generational gap. No one carries 'bail' biners anymore?
Bail 'biners? leaving $6 bucks at the top of a climb? Verses a one OPEN clip lower?
Learn what gear is to be used to top rope through , or lower through, or
As in this case rappel the safe old way .
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Cheers for learning the 'old' way. But people are lazy, and dumb, and you cant fix that. How the hell do people like that even learn to climb in the first place? Seriously, leaving a biner on an anchor to keep it safe is a mere pittance, a small entry fee to pay.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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I once placed an anchor on a route I did. Left two ~8" lengths of fairly heavy chain hanging down. Climb up, clip the chains with your backup, feed the rope through the ends of both chains, rappel, right?
Later on, when I came back, someone had taken a lightweight quicklink and put it through the ends of both chains and used that to lower or rap off.
I guess it was too much for modern climbers to figure out. If they knew sh*t about climbing, maybe there would be hope.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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There is the concept of having the work link replaceable, otherwise that bottom link will wear and then the whole chain has to be replaced. But linking the two chains with one crossloaded link isnt very bright.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Lead climb.
Set up your own lowering/toproping anchor using quickdraws into the bolts, preferably with a locker at the rope end.
Lower off.
Second either follows of pulls and releads, then raps the route.
If the route is followed, leave the last bolt on the route clipped to the belayers end on the way up and clean it on rappel when the top anchor is weighted from below (backs up the anchor).
This really doesn't take much more time, saves all the wear and tear on the anchors and is safer. What the mussys do is save you from having to feed the rope through links at the anchor.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Excellent post phylp! Thank you.
Chief. What bolts are being used? 3/8"x3" wedge? SS or steel?
ALL Anchor bolts that were deemed needing replacement were done so with the ASCA mandated and supplied 1/2" X 3 1/2" SS Five Piece POWER bolts. (178 total Oct 2010- Apr 2011)
ALL Protection Bolts that were deemed needing replacement were done so with the ASCA supplied and my personal supply of 3/8" x 2 1/4" SS Five Piece POWER bolts. (63 total Oct 2010- Apr 2011)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mussy Hooks are available at hardware stores and their quality seems to vary. Some have been used here recently thar were very hard to clip.......they didn't open freely.
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overwatch
climber
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Those Fixe rigs look like the s h i t. Still not clear whether OP was lowering through the hooks or rapping off them. Also aren't you weighting the anchor before you unclip?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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they didn't open freely.
And those Jim were indeed the ones that the ASCA supplied me with.
One process that Greg Barnes demonstrated to me and highly suggested I do is to flatten the insides of the sharp "Horseshoe" gates prior to actually placing them to prevent any potential for the rope being cut on low angled routes. Which I did to all the gates, regardless the routes they were put on.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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two of these done deal, they suck for TR ing!! but last a long time. Less links in the system. Or one and a Chain from above lowest link level with the Metolius monster hanger. Yes expensive, stop being so cheap.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Jeff ...
Great Call on the MET MONSTERS. Those are in fact what I personally installed on many of my personal FA's. They are simple to install, utilize and are indeed the shet!!!
More importantly, they forced lazy individuals to place a separate system for TRing thus extensively extending their life.
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overwatch
climber
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Even better! Obviously purpose designed.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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I am with Jeff.....
Or one and a Chain from above lowest link level with the Metolius monster hanger. Yes expensive, stop being so cheap.
This is what we have been doing for the last few years, Scott Ayers does his anchors in Cochise this way.... Its brilliant, it is impossible to TR through this set up.
And I don't think its all that more expensive and you only carry one heavy chain up to the crags.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Those metolius rap hangers have some good advantages, but the worst down shot, two actually, that Ive seen have been the curling of the rope after pulling it down, those things put a mean curl on stuff. The second, and might be not related to the rap hanger itself, but to the fact that the anchor point cant be extended, its smack at the bolt. Some anchor locations dont lend themselves to the logistics of those things. I feel the same about the fixe hangers with the rings on them. They seem to end up placed well craftsmanship-wise but in unfortunate locations.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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We rarely use Mussy hooks, the ones we had were all bought through the Rubber Room in Bishop and used only for eastside anchors (and a few at Tahoe). We don't have any anymore, and have never ordered any directly (I'd need to set up a US Rigging account), locals in Bishop do a great job of collecting donations and buying them for Owens replacement.
Mussy hooks aren't great for slab anchors or any anchor where the hook is pressed against the rock - that's when you get rope twisting (just like Fixe single ring anchors or Metolius rap hangers). Careful crimping of the back of the gate like Chief shows is the best way to avoid the sharp back of the gate shredding the rope sheath. This makes them sketchy for anchors where people might clip both hooks then traverse to a nearby anchor and clip those, then lower off - the unweighted inner hooks of each set may have the rope grinding across the back of the gate.
A few years back we got a deal on a small number of the fancy Fixe Draco carabiners (like Chief's photo, but just the biner), and I've sent those out to the eastside and Tahoe as well, but that was a one time thing, they are just too expensive. Nice though!
Overall very few areas in the U.S. use open anchors and thus there's little interest. Most very steep sport routes with open anchors use easier-to-clip steel gym biners or just extra biners from climbers who swap out worn aluminum ones frequently.
One thing with the Metolius fat rap hangers is that they are NOT stainless steel, even in dry desert areas they will rust as the coating wears off. Even with zero use the coating will be slowly worn off by weathering.
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Rolfr
Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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I doubt that the mussy hooks themselves are the reason for twisting the rope, the problem is lowering of parallel placed anchour bolts or mussy..
Most people are still under the misconception that anchour bolts need to be placed parallel to equalize the system. Redundancy is still achieved with offset anchours, and preferable for lowering, to avoid twisting the rope.
If you still are concerned place chains on parallel anchours to avoid twisting the rope.
Parallel metolius rap hangers or short parallel mussy hooks with single quick links are meant for rappelling not lowering.
The modern mind set is an expectation for convenient lowering, I doubt that attitude will change.
Good luck getting the kinks out of the rope, a hard way to learn that lesson.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Hey Chief,
I'm curious about that new rig you showed there. It looks like the 'biner type device is lying parallel to the rock, so if you run your rope through two of them it will be twisted.
I would think you'd want the back, the spine, of the 'biner to face the rock?
K
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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mussies ok with me. always thankful for the work you guys do.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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...It will rotate outwards...
No troll Locker :-) It looks to me like the hanger is in the way of rotation.
I guess I'll have to wait 'till I see one in real life.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
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Here's a better picture, showing the weighted position:
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 10:32am PT
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So:
Phylp. All I've ever done until now is set up gear through anchors to lower off. Always have been super safe and taken the time to set up bomb proof lowering, rap or TR. I am well versed in anchors and have never been remotely accused of setting unsafe anchors whether rapping, gear or otherwise.. Colleen lead a climb, got to the hooks, clipped the hooks to lower off. The rope was twisted. When she leaned back to lower off a significant 'pop' occurred and she was out of one of the hooks. There were no keepers on the hooks. I was pondering having her clip in but was worried that any un-weighting might un-clip the other hook. But convenience can make even the best of us miss something like not paying attention to what's in front of us. I will never lower off hooks again and will go back to setting up raps through enclosed areas of whatever anchor is available. I watched other climbers. None of them set up through closed links to lower. All clipped the hooks.
The conversation seems to be moving towards other forms of anchors. As I said before, I never have installed open anchor systems. Always a closed system be it chains, rings or whatever. Convenience anchors seem to mean trouble as they can easily be set up for failure where as a closed system demands that one set up for a safer system.
Question: Should mussy's be replaced with mussy's or should they be replaced with a closed system? Will people complain? Ofcourse just because we came close doesn't mean things should change. There doesn't seem to be a lot of accidents due to mussy's any more then any other type of anchor system. But if open anchors can lull experienced safe climbers into unsafe conditions.....My fault ofcourse but I don't like having options. I'd rather be forced to set up safety.
Ksolem: Good question. I noticed the same thing. But you could configure them to face straight out using links like the mussy's.
edit: MisterE beat me to it...Also Greg brought up good point about mussy's positionally not good on low angle surface. I need to re-check the anchor we were using and if I remember correctly it was on low angle. I was thinking about the same thing after Colleen lowered off. And for those like the Chief and Greg who've done a lot of bolting etc. at the Hills. If I were to put up a climb there, am I required to stick to the local edict and put in mussy's or convenience anchors like the ones above or can I put in another type of anchor? What if walk off is available? Chief, thanks for your hard work...
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Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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The problem here was not that they were mussy hooks, but that the hooks were damaged and should have been replaced. Would you clip a biner with a broken or missing gate?
The mussy's were adopted because they are fast to clip, easy to replace, relatively inexpensive, and safer since you never go off belay. Other than the freak sub-gorge bolt failure this year, all of the fatal (non-alpine) climbing accidents that I'm aware of in our area have been the result of miscommunication or incorrect procedures regarding rapping/vs lowering. (1. The guy who decked and died on Paradise, 2. The girl who decked and almost died on Member's Only, 3. The guy who decked and died in Clark Canyon this year.) To my knowledge, there has never been a serious accident due to a mussy hook anchor failure.
Personally, I would much rather replace an occasional worn pair of hooks than have to carry someone out because they screwed up threading or rapping.
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overwatch
climber
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yeah I was brain farting big time there with my question about lowering or rappelling thanks for the clarification
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Chief: Great work with all the anchors.
I'm curious why use 1/2" on sport anchors and 3/8 on lead bolts?
[quote]//ALL Anchor bolts that were deemed needing replacement were done so with the ASCA mandated and supplied 1/2" X 3 1/2" SS Five Piece POWER bolts. (178 total Oct 2010- Apr 2011)
ALL Protection Bolts that were deemed needing replacement were done so with the ASCA supplied and my personal supply of 3/8" x 2 1/4" SS Five Piece POWER bolts. (63 total Oct 2010- Apr 2011)[///quote]
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Bad Climber
climber
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+1 what Todd said.
+!!!!!!11111 with thanks to The Chief for his work.
While we're talking replacements and such: Anyone got the gear to pull and replace bolts on the Slab Route (10a) at the Alabama Hills? Old, scary button heads, including a spinner or two. Anchors are good, however.
BAd
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peter croft
climber
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Well said, Todd.
I would also say that Mussys without the gates are safer than open cold shuts because they (the Mussys) swivel. Having said that the only time I've heard of the rope coming clean out of any open hooks was that time that gravity reversed itself...oh wait, that never happened.
Mussys are the most durable, cheapest and easy to replace units out there.
The most dangerous situations I've seen in the Gorge are the ones where people have clipped in with their own draws or, worse, cordalettes. It is a regular occurrence to then see the least experienced toprope up and get utterly confused as to what they should unclip and when. I have seen far too many nightmarish close calls like this.
Everything else being equal the simplest solution is always the safest - less chance for human error.
Worrying about Mussy hooks is like freaking out about poisonous snakes while driving in rush hour - during an earthquake.
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overwatch
climber
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Wow! big day in super topo history thank you for posting sir. Love your work
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
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Agree with Todd and Peter except that odd things can and do happen and this may be a one off. Colleen did everything correctly except to anticipate what a severely twisted rope can do with an open hook anchor (oh wait, a severely twisted rope can easily fight gravity and twist out of an open gate. It happened). If she had gone through the normal (for her) sequence of clipping the bolts, rethreading the quick links and lowering off (she's no newb and gets the sequence right) she would not have the problem. I've seen confusion on threading all sorts of anchors, not just hooks. And isn't this because we've made climbing more convenient? I agree that many newer climbers not accustomed to untying and rethreading can get it wrong. But I'd still rather take the time to ensure safety. Open hooks need to be constantly weighted to ensure the rope staying in place. Ropes placed in enclosed anchors stay put.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
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Folks, I'm truly sorry I brought it up.....
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overwatch
climber
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Why? You stated your answer to Mr. Croft's comedic observation, why the petulance?
I think she shifted/unweighted the anchor at the wrong split second and the twisted to hell rope popped out ala Murphy, not so far fetched?
Edit;
Agreed, I never liked open anchors either and don't have that much experience with them.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 02:31pm PT
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Overwatch. Exactly what happened. Petulance wasn't aimed at Mr. Croft. More like saddness aimed at butt sniffers. And I will humbly disagree. I don't like worn out, open mussy's. To me, they give Mr. Murphy more of a chance.....
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splitclimber
climber
Sonoma County
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If you got Peter to post then there should be no apologies. ;)
I've experienced Peter's observations with difficulty in setting a simple toprope setup for a follower in an effort to minimize wear on the hooks. Clipping into quicklinks or hangers usually pinches gear and makes cleaning and a good TR anchor difficult. It tempts you to just want to TR through the hooks. I've never wanted to attach any gear to the hooks though.
If Todd and other locals say they really are easy and inexpensive to replace, then I'm generally OK with them as anchors.
Glad it turned out OK Tony and Colleen.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Wst, my response was not meant to imply you were inexperienced or unsafe. I recognize you have been around here for a long time and are experienced. Was just listing the sequence that I use and find good for me, that I use with other experienced climbers. As Peter points out, this method (which involves rapping) would not be the best option with inexperienced climbers. It also is not optimal on an overhanging route that you have lead and want to clean on the way down. For that throwing the rope in the mussys and lowering is great.
It's a good topic. Don't be sorry you brought it up.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
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Phylp. No slight taken. You're always respectful. I practiced what you preach until last weekend. I will go back to that. And that was my point. I consider myself and Colleen fairly experienced. But twisted ropes plus open hooks was a new one on both of us. Lucky. My argument is closed anchors and learning to use them competently, to me, is much safer. Ease of use makes it easier to keep the inexperienced inexperienced. There's no need to aquire skills if you don't use them or never aquire them.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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I'm curious why use 1/2" on sport anchors and 3/8 on lead bolts?
This was an ASCA sponsored operation and I was following orders from the "Boss".
EDIT: Inventory issues as I recall.
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jstan
climber
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Worrying about Mussy hooks is like freaking out about poisonous snakes while driving in rush hour - during an earthquake.
An observation. During the Landers quake residents of Landers said the ground was covered with rattlers that had left their burrows.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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This was an ASCA sponsored operation and I was following orders from the "Boss".
Chief, you remember incorrectly. We prefer all 1/2" if possible, and if I were to specify it'd be 1/2" pro bolts and 3/8" anchor bolts on single-pitch stuff (since the anchor can never see high forces).
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Greg... You are correct as far as the ASCA's preference but I believe that the issue at the time I did the A-Hills was the lack of stock of 1/2" SS's in your inventory and we agreed to use the 1/2"ers primarily on the Anchors to keep it all uniform. Thus I was sent what the ASCA had left of SS 3/8"ers for the "pro" bolts (which were far less than the Anchors that critically needed replacement) and we agreed that I was to utilize them for such. We also agreed that when the ASCA's stock of 1/2"ers got replenished, I could return and replace the 3/8" with 1/2". AAMOF, I still have the empty box of that the 3/8" SSers came in as it was the last one you all had.
Again, correct me if I am wrong.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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You're probably right, there were times we were just out of bolts.
Besides, the top rock at A-Hills is typically so soft/grainy that 3/8" would be sketchy...
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Rolfr
Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Besides, the top rock at A-Hills is typically so soft/grainy that 3/8" would be sketchy...
Yup. That is why we agreed on keeping the Anchors all 1/2" SSers as all of the Pro bolts that I replaced were in good solid rock. The lack of materials, both bolts and Mussy's from the supplier's, is also why it took me so long to complete the project. No fault of yours of course.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Rolfr, that is CRAZY. I have never seen a rope like that in nearly 40 years of climbing. What POS brand is it? Similarly, re. the OP: NEVER had a kink or loop like that exist in a rope under tension--never. Some weird vodo sh#t goin' down in the 'Bamas, that's what I'm thinkin'. Smear goat blood over yer tent fly, people. Locusts are next.
BAd
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Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Lol, for realz BAd.
In the past 8 years that I've been living in Bishop, I've lowered off of mussy's hundreds of times. During that same time, my friends have cumulatively lowered off of mussy's thousands of times. I've never heard of anyone's rope getting that funked up.
What does kink the sh#t out of ropes, is lowering off of single quick links attached to bolt hangers. This setup is usually the result of people stealing lower-off biners from anchors and is yet another reason in favor of mussy's, as they're harder to pilfer and less useful to a would-be thief.
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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I think I have read through most of the comments. I always, if possible, clip my draws directly into the hanger. Or the closest link to the wall. I don't think this was mentioned.
When I am climbing with a gang of folks and we're cragging; I have two long draws with lockers on both ends that I clip directly into the hanger under whatever is there whether its chain or a quick link. And use that as a top rope set up.
I have seen Mossy's burnt almost all the way through, from people incorrectly using them, to top rope or lowering the climber at Owens and Clark.
It pains me to see people lowering and and top roping off existing anchors. It is so disrespectful to the sport and the people who spent their time and often their own money so we can have fun.
Tony I am glad you posted this because there have been so many positive comments and by whom. For the most part climbers get to learn about our sport from threads just like this one. It is this kind of stuff that keeps me coming back to ST.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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You need to unroll a new rope, as if unwinding it off a spool. Then, you butterfly coil the rope, with each loop being cancelled by the next, opposing loop. There shouldn't be any twists in the rope.
Another method is to toss the end off a high cliff, and shake all the twists out of the rope.
If you simply pull one end out of a brand-new rope's coil, all of the loops in the coil are converted into twisting of the rope. If you then load the rope, the twisting can cause fibers to shift, and create the Ma Bell line seen in the photo.
A figure-8 or Munter Hitch rappel can also twist your rope.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
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bAd......goofy right? I have, as Todd says, never seen this until climbing at the Hills. I had to untwist, as Tom suggests, after every friggin' climb! Maybe we hit every worn mussy in the place? Harrison. I tie in to anchors just like you. Two slings coming through both harness loops with two small lockers on the ends. Clip in, untie(or not if clipping top rope draws placed), thread enclosed anchors for rappell/lowering and tie back in. Not rocket science but as said before, I think convenience keeps you uneducated, or you develope lazy habits.
Edit: Better add that after clipping slings into anchirs that I pull up 4 or so feet of slack, tie an overhand knot in the slack and attatch it to my harness before untying to thread, lest the sticklers take me ro task....I have never top roped off existing anchors, mainly because bitd mostly just two bolts so had to set up for top rope. Once again convenience makes one lazy. I'd say the large majority of top ropping we saw at the hills was directly off the hooks.
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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I think an important aspect is to clip under the existing gear in the hanger. Sometimes clipping on top of existing gear levers on the hanger.
Looking forward to climbing with you Tony. Heading out on a road trip after the first of the year. Will check in with you before I go and see whats up. Maybe we can do some service.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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It pains me to see people lowering and and top roping off existing anchors. It is so disrespectful to the sport and the people who spent their time and often their own money so we can have fun.
That is why I gave up doing so after ten or so years of service.
Amazingly I actually confronted several different groups doing so over the years and asked them to set up an independent system when TRing out of respect for those that do the work maintaining the area. Each time they basically told me to fk off.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2015 - 03:55pm PT
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Would never tell you to eff of Chief. It is disheartening to put in the effort only to have the hard work worn out so soon. Have done a lot of ASCA replacement in TM. But different outcome due to different styles. I'd rather, as you have, use enclosed anchors at the top of my FA's. Don't care if they're popular or not. I'm willing to put in the hard work of replacing hooks but not if the work is wasted. Wonder what the wear life is on the system you and MisterE posted? I'm willing to replace on my dime if they're a better solution. Harrison, come on out. Room with a view of Mt. Tom.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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I use my own worn biners for toproping,
but it's not just moochers who wear down the Mussy hooks.
Some of the people who install them also toprope thru them.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Dec 10, 2015 - 04:49pm PT
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Current standard at the home crag in Tenino. Low traffic and on site caretaker means the stainless steel captive biners stay in great shape, and we routinely top rope through them.
Years ago we did one of those multi pitch Kevin Pogue routes in City of Rocks, over by Stripe Rock or something. Anchors were open cold shuts, and it was scary having three of us on the hanging belay during the rappels, you could see those things flexing, and we backed up through a bolt with a draw. Scary anchors suck, and there is no reason to have them in a cragging situation, save that stuff for the desperate alpine retreat.
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Rolfr
Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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Dec 11, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
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When we have free coffee and Access Society fund raisers at our local sport crag Skaha, I usually print and hand out this article by Russ Facente. Amazing how this is new for too many people.
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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Dec 14, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
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Yeah Rolfr, very cool. That eliminates some of the hassle and steps. Even if you are going to rappel, which ultimately should be done. Just feed the rope to half way, set up your belay, untie, unclip and rapple.
I am going to use this in the future.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 14, 2015 - 05:42pm PT
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Pretty much SOP in the desert since the mid eighties or so. Which of course,is where Moab resident and uber climber Russ F probablly picked it up, in his formative years
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Dec 14, 2015 - 06:37pm PT
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Aye yer summits in chains!
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Dec 14, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
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The Alabama hills are junk! Why waist hardware and time there. Bad rock, bad views, short routes and no one to talk to. You could get as much pleasure spreading glue on a wall and throwing kitty litter at it, then trying to commence climbing on it. I've even seen some local idiot out there soloing.... Almost frolicking! The Rock is hollow... Even drum like. And the locals..... You have been through Lone Pine and seen the Locals? The climbs are mediocre and the grit is to gritty for the men of hard grit. I would rather walk in the scorching heat naked from Lone Pine to the gateway of the Happys to get myself some proper bouldering. It's dusty, its windy and the mussy hooks are failing. Why even bother? I've even heard there banditos in the rocks, waiting to steal your horse.... Or dog bowl!
Absutley pure garbage!
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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Dec 14, 2015 - 09:06pm PT
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Myles, you forgot no bathrooms. Cant climb behind the portal store all the time!.
Good to see you posting up. I love the hills in spite of the mussy's etc.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2015 - 12:36am PT
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The last climb we did there is called "Dirty, Useless and a Downclimb".....Truth
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Dec 21, 2015 - 10:15am PT
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Matt_m wrote:
US climbers resist vertical arrangements because they all want to use two QDs in a "Vee" configuration even though there's zero need to do so.
I would disagree with this statement. Yes, with modern materials the chance of a single bolt failure, or any other link in the chain, is greatly diminished, but it can still happen. In the photo of your vertical setup the failure of the top bolt will shock load the other bolt. Do you really want that? Clearly, there is a way to have a vertical setup that won't shock load if there is a failure.
Also, I am not sure how the vertical setup doesn't twist the rope while the horizontal setup does.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2015 - 10:27am PT
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Matt,
All good points and I think most, including myself agree that no-one "should" be forced to learn anything. We climbed again in Alabama Hills over the weekend and thought more about anchors. We climbed in the Candy Shop area and just about every kind of anchor from chains to mussy, cold shuts etc. are there. We also climbed to some "captured" ss carabiner anchors.
What I found was in putting it all together for myself and partner, factoring in ease of use, safety, avoidance of having to untie vs. clipping directly, cost etc. was that there need to be different anchors for different situations but the best overall we found for short climbs was the captured ss biners. They seem to function well in various positions where as the mussy'
s are not so good on the horizontal because there are many failed gates (springs gone etc.). Also, we are still factoring in the one off of the twisted rope. Our situation may be rare but one fatality is too much for me and the severely twisted rope can do amazing things with an open anchor. It may be a rarity but one I don't want to encounter again. So I still lean towards closed anchors but the captured biners address this problem as they are much better quality i.e the gates then tow hooks which are not designed with climbing in mind but provide a cheap alternative. Cost is definitely a factor and surely was/is to the FA'ist putting up tens of climbs. I put up climbs and will mix and match anchors based on what I think is best, not because I think others should learn this or that. Moving to the east side has definitely put a crimp on the budget (and I think this has a lot to do with anchor choice) but I intend to use captured ss biners on short, one pitch climbs. But I will stick to a closed anchor set up for multi-pitch because of varying terrain.
As to the entrenched "v" system I agree with your point that we in the US are slow to change but you left out the history as to why. As climbing styles changed, so to did anchors. Most anchors were placed by hand back in the day and 1/4" ers were the norm and equalizing (like what is still done with gear anchors now) was deemed important. With the advent of power drills and the ease they provide to place a single bombproof bolt, equalizing is not so important any more. As shown in your images, anchors can now rely on one point and use a second as back-up. Placement of 1/2" ss anchors is becoming more the norm, particularly in sport but you can surely imagine, (if you've done bolt replacement) how hard it is to hand drill a 1/2" inch x 4" bolt. So things take time to evolve as do peoples views of that evolution. We tend to forget the small why's and wherefore's of the evolution.
Edit: bhilden beat me to it by moments......echoing his thoughts and I still like equalization but will trust, based on experience, a single bombproof bolt with backup if I encounter it...
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MisterE
Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
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Dec 21, 2015 - 10:34am PT
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LOL, Myles!
I've even seen some local idiot out there soloing.... Almost frolicking!
It's just that Dick doesn't like people...but he does like to frolick!
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2015 - 10:41am PT
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DMT...agree. Also consider lowering when we bail off, or fall on bolts on the climb. We all do it all the time. A single 3/8'x 2" bolt of any material is bomber. But I couldn't download your examples.....
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Dec 21, 2015 - 11:00am PT
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In the photo of your vertical setup the failure of the top bolt will shock load the other bolt. Do you really want that?
By definition (since it´s a lower-off) there is the entire pitch length of climbing rope in the system at the absolute minimum, falling an extra foot or so if the top anchor fails is irrelevant when it comes to impact force on the lower bolt. Lowering from the top of a 25m route it´s going to be a FF0.02 at worst.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2015 - 11:07am PT
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Now that I can see them.....I was going to mention that we have always found chains to be the easiest "closed system" (translates to safety?) anchors to deal with, (as Harrison mentioned above?) because you can simply clip into a link higher then the rappel/top rope/lower point instead of clipping bolts above a mussy or quick links and then untie and thread the lowering points i.e. chain end link, ring etc. I agree the sh-t show we all see when someone attempts to untie for rapell/lower off or top rope set up, especially, and ironically when an open face convenience anchor is there. It is harder to set up through bolts or quick links above a mussy and obviously you don't have a choice with the old cold shuts bolted directly to the wall which we found at the Candy Store area. Chains are also cheap and easy to replace.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Dec 21, 2015 - 11:52am PT
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Matt M,
Well written. May I suggest that you avoid using the term "drop in anchor" to describe mussys or rams horns? This is a potentially dangerous misnomer if it catches on with climbers. A "drop-in anchor" is a specific type of concrete/masonry/stone fastener. Adequate for fastening artificial holds, but not for protection bolts or belay/rap anchors.
https://www.us.hilti.com/anchor-systems/flush-anchors/r67854
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Rolfr
Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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Dec 22, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
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I would disagree with this statement. Yes, with modern materials the chance of a single bolt failure, or any other link in the chain, is greatly diminished, but it can still happen. In the photo of your vertical setup the failure of the top bolt will shock load the other bolt. Do you really want that? Clearly, there is a way to have a vertical setup that won't shock load if there is a failure.
That doesn't make any sense, you load a single protection bolt with incredibly more force in a fall, than a three foot fall on a top rope if the anchour failed.
Also, I am not sure how the vertical setup doesn't twist the rope while the horizontal setup does.
Lowering on two right angle turns of the rope will ensure that it is kinked when you are done. Don't believe me? Go sacrifice an old rope and try it yourself
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 22, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
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Depending on how you feed the rope thru the belay device, its generally how the rope gets twisted. It should be fed straight in, and not from the side. I see many folks feeding a gri gri from the side, putting twists in the rope.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 22, 2015 - 05:47pm PT
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Studly is on the right track!
Kink, coils and curls in the rope most likely were there before lowering from the anchor.
How did they get there?
Poor Rope Management on the ground in the past by the owner/belayer of the rope.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2015 - 05:53pm PT
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Use an atc and have for years with no twist problems. I think studly and rolfr both on right track. Although many Mussy's laying against rock in the hills. Just haven't had problems before but what do I know. New to the convenience anchors....
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
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I would disagree with this statement. Yes, with modern materials the chance of a single bolt failure, or any other link in the chain, is greatly diminished, but it can still happen. In the photo of your vertical setup the failure of the top bolt will shock load the other bolt. Do you really want that? Clearly, there is a way to have a vertical setup that won't shock load if there is a failure.
That doesn't make any sense, you load a single protection bolt with incredibly more force in a fall, than a three foot fall on a top rope if the anchour failed.
The bottom line is that bolts do fail. Hangers fail. A climber died in Owens Gorge this year because a bolt failed. Granted, bolts and hangers don't fail very often, but they do fail.
Maybe my use of the term "shock load" elicited some strong responses, but if you are going to drill two bolts and create an anchor why not do it in such a way that both bolts share equal load? You can do that either in a horizontal or vertical configuration. Your choice.
Why would you deliberately create an anchor where one bolt takes all the load and if that bolt fails an unnecessary(though maybe small) force will be applied to the second bolt? If you are going to do it. Do it as best as possible. If you really think that only one bolt is enough for an anchor then why even put in the second bolt?
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Dec 23, 2015 - 08:26am PT
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Because we know that with modern bolts the chance of one failing is incredibly low and the chance of two succesively failing is non-existent.
Seperated bolts allow more placement possibilities, are cheaper and have a lower environmental impact.
My home climbing area, in common with much of Europe DOES only have single bolt lower-offs, no deaths have occured.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 23, 2015 - 08:45am PT
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Europe may be ahead of the U.S. with bolt quality (loads of bomber glue-ins, etc), climbing standards, climber organizations, etc (ahem….metric system…ahem)…
BUT the non-redundant single point anchors are just dumb. Even before they get really worn down.
Euros have just gotten lucky so far (and maybe there's less random rockfall damaging anchors in Europe in general? Climber geologist study in the works…).
(Yes, I've climbed in Europe - Switzerland/France/Italy - and used a lot of single-point anchors).
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Dec 23, 2015 - 10:17am PT
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The accident statistics show we are consistantly lucky!
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| Messages 1 - 89 of total 89 in this topic |
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Horizontally spaced anchors are not as versatile as vertically spaced ones but due to historical use in the US, they're "ingrained" in many as the better setup.
Let us know!