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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:38am PT
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Yeah there are really just three angry people every time. Everytime this flares up its the same three. Thats why it really doesn't bother me that much. Because 99% of the Alaska climbing community is friendly.
John. You cannot see any of our new route in the picture. I'm not blind but I think you might need to look closer. Even if our route was there when the picture was taken you couldn't see the bolts in the picture.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:40am PT
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Greg - to answer your question about if the bolts were two feet to the left...
The answer would be an obvious yes! Something Kelsey is trying to hide is that Lemming Ranch has been climbed by starting at the bottom and going right past his first bolt. It's also been done by traversing in from the left going right past this third bolt. It's been done several times both ways. Kelsey knew this and decided to bolt it anyway. As an added insult he named his soon to be chopped garbage collateral damage.
Ok thanks for making this clear. I am just an outsider and my opinion aint much but just curious how others view this kinda stuff and how others on public forums from afar view it. Thanks.
In this case, with what you wrote, I agree with you.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:41am PT
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I'm assuming your speaking of Chump Monkey. Which is sort of funny considering the name that Andy gave it. Here's the short history of a short route. Eddie, Dan, and he says Andy could have been there but he doesn't remember it that way, go and climb the route. Then later Andy climbs it again and names it "non-local guidebook writers suck" to rip on me. Eddie wasn't to happy with Andy renaming his route so he called it Chump Monkey Among Us. Then he bolted it, which is not a retro as its his route. And there it is.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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Three? Haha
You should take a closer look....
See Rodger? Remember this was taken before your f*#k up...
See where your retro bolt garbage is? See the ledge to the left?
Tell me how it would be possible for him to have gone from that ledge without passing directly over your most recent botched retro job?
You knowingly bolted right over Escape from the Lemming Ranch and posted photos to prove it.
Grey - this isn't the first time Kelsey's poor choices have reflected badly on the ASCA. At present it seems the ASCA is willingly supplying a know retro bolted. Not only that but one who's been caught red handed several times. The last time he got caught I was told, by you that he agreeded to cease retro bolting. That obviously didn't happen. Are you going to continue to supply him?
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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The route name Collateral Damage is actually from the fact that we both had places to be hours before we left the wall. We were both late to meet with our significant others and I was missing a pretty important meeting to do so. So we called it Collateral Damage, but both his wife and my girlfriend are kind of amazing and neither was upset so the name was unnecessary anyway and all in our minds. Ya you can rip on that too but it doesn't matter. I'm giving you the truth. You should try doing the same.
Also I had no idea someone would come from all the way on the left to start the route. Anyone who did that was skipping the main intention of the route anyway and already cheapening it. Sort of hypocritical since its something you said you did.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:47am PT
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He didn't go from the ledge on the left john. Didn't you repost the picture he sent me a bunch of times? He went the lower ledge to the right of our entire bolt line.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:56am PT
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Are any bolts legitimate? Were they grandfathered in somehow? And was it determined that the FA team, adding something very unnatural to a natural landscape, was prescient enough to know how many, to a precise number, were okay?
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Roger Pollard
Trad climber
Alaska
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:58am PT
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I would like to clear up a few things about the climb: Escape From the Lemming Ranch (EFLR). I did this climb with Jim Sweeney back in the 80s.
First a little history... it was led from the ground up trailing an 10.5mm rope, brush and hammer along with a few pins and a 1/4 drill...just in case..sorta old school I guess. It was the obvious line on the Inferno and ascends a nice clean white granite corner that protects very well but is prone to zippering if the leader does not oppose nuts at the base of the dihedral. The confusion as to where the route is... confuses me... since it seems so obvious. I mentioned to Kelsey that I thought the first section up to the corner was poorly protected and when I got a chance a welded a bomber monster lost arrow below the near the base of the dihedral. As a side note I was later belaying a climber on the second ascent who took a 30 footer when he popped high on the corner and zippered all the pro. The pin saved his life (is the pin still there? or pulled due to..) I recommended also that someone place a bolt on the lower poorly protected section and replace the hand drilled 1/4 in belay anchors. In my prejudiced view this is one of the best routes in the Hatcher Pass area. It was climbed the way it was climbed due to circumstance not an attempt to be bold. What matters is that people climb the route and enjoy it and due to the limited number of climbs I feel the safer the climb is the more people can enjoy it.
If you wanna do it old school then don't clip the bolt. If I was there I'd go up and put one in myself. The new route "Collateral Damage" is to the left of EFLR and does not cross the route. Its nice to see more routes going up on that rock. Check out The Taxman Cometh, also a great climb that needs no bolts (but could probably use a good cleaning). Attached is an old photo of the climb to help clarify.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:59am PT
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A question that has required many a talk and conference among climbers. Whats your thoughts on it donini? Not this specific route but on the idea you raised?
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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Thank you Roger.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 11:08am PT
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Kelsey you can see where he is in the photo.
I "cheapened" it? How? When I left it was the same as it was before I got there. I didn't feel the need to add a bunch of bolts to lower it down to my standard...It's still runout 5.10. It used to be before you retro bolted it anyway... It's not anymore though.
I didn't add the bolts to Lemming Ranch...you did. Yeah I "cheapened" it. You "cheapened it" for everyone.
If you think it's easy to come in from the left wait until it gets the chop and try it.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 30, 2015 - 11:10am PT
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I sport climb quite a lot but I don't bring bolts on alpine first ascents....haven't since 1976. Just pointing out that it's all arbitrary, if not artifice. Certain things got grandfathered in and became sacrosanct......so be it. I'm too old to care enough to argue a point. I just climb and do it my way.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 11:13am PT
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John - Read the above post by Roger.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 11:14am PT
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donini - Thanks for the extra words of thought.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 11:16am PT
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Cool... Kelsey sounds like Kelsey bolted my bolt free variation from the left... Chop chop
There's no reason this thing all of a sudden needs bolts added to it. Not clipping the bolts is like walking down a road and pretending there aren't cars going by...
Rodger here's what your partner Sweeney had to say about it...
"Hadn't heard about Lemming Ranch. Thought it had good pro... Pussies".
Does it sound like you have both agreed to hand it over to Kelsey to do whatever he wants with it? Why in the world would give someone "permission" to do something that you know is gonna cause a shitstorm? Maybe you didn't know? Might have been a shortage of well protected.10's the last time you were here but that's not the case anymore...
Even Kelsey's partner has offered to remove the bolts...
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 11:22am PT
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I think I've proven my point and I don't think you've ever climbed it. Its not a retrobolt. Move on John. At least admit you're wrong.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Sep 30, 2015 - 11:25am PT
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You are lying and obfuscating again Kelsey. Eddie failed to top rope that line. Andy came along and bolted it and led it. Eddie came back from wherever he was hiding years later, and added 2 more bolts then made the SECOND LEAD ascent of the route. You chose to condone his actions, and change the route name because you don't like Andy. Reputations happen for a reason. Just like John has a reputation for being a bit of an outspoken blowhard bad ass alpine climber. And you have a reputation as being a retro bolter.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 11:29am PT
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Time to move on F. Nothing to see here. We can argue about who put up what and who called it what but I'm tired of all of it. It doesn't really matter. Go climb.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 11:30am PT
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Kelsey - I'll admit this... I gonna chop your bolts. Several others will too...
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 11:32am PT
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You're showing your true colors now. It was never about the retrobolting that you thought happened. It was about me. For some reason you just need someone to hate, like you don't have enough people already.
Move on.
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