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WyoRockMan
climber
South Fork of the Shoshone
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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Retailers should require a ASCA bolting card to sell hardware.
I'm sure Home Depot would be in full compliance.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:54am PT
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Hey Spider... Good point.
I actually spent quite a bit of time with G.Barnes doing several projects to see precisely what he and the ASCA protocols were. Then did all my ASCA sponsored deeds to those exact specifications/procedures with their material and hardware.
Just saying.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:55am PT
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Alright, I feel like I've been brought in front of the principle to prove myself against the school bully but here we go. I'm mainly doing this because your ranting is affecting people such as The Chief who I respect for all that he's done. So here we go again.
1. I admitted then that I put bolts on Splat Button and Hocus Pocus. I believed then that making more lead lines on the highway was a bonus and I got a bit excited. It was my early run at bolting and unfortunate. Yeah I was wrong there and we've moved on from it. I did not use any ASCA bolts on that climb, which you claimed I did. Here's a quote from Greg Barnes that specifically tells you this in an email he sent to you -
We're aware that he added bolts to 2 climbs - Hocus Pocus and Splat Button - but that was before he got any ASCA gear. He says he did not add the bolts on any other routes and does not know who did. He said that he was not planning on ever adding bolts to anything again due to all the flack from those 2 routes, and that ASCA bolts will be used only for replacement. We are taking him at his word to a certain extent, but all of our bolts (hangers/rap hangers actually) are clearly stamped "ASCA" (factory stamped by Fixe in Spain), so it will be very obvious if they are misused.
In the same post I pulled that from he also tells you that you are blatantly lying. Its a habit you seem to have when you don't get what you want. My problem is I admit to my mistakes, which I have always done. I have not retrobolted any other climbs and certainly did not add any ASCA bolts. All the bolts on our new route are mine. I have no idea why the Alaska section for the ASCA website is down. It was far from updated as I'd sent a lot more information but they don't exactly have a big budget or a lot of workers. So I've kept my own list which I've allowed others to access. I also send that list to Greg so he can see exactly what I've done.
2. You were wrong before when you said that I'd retrobolted Degrees of Fruitfullness. I proved it was a replacement with pictures and supported by information from the previous guidebook. Do you admit it?
3. Bent Knee, the bolts that the ASCA supplies are 5 piece bolts that can be removed although it usually leaves in the sleeve. When they are first installed I put them at the best angle i can for the climb but during climbing they sometimes may come a bit loose with pulls at different angles. All it takes is usually a retighten to fix the problem. They can be over tightened, which I could do to solve this problem but then it would weaken the strength of the bolt. At least this is as far as I know, someone can correct me if I am wrong. Also you are referring to upper boy scout I presume. It was oddly enough one of my more memorable removals because it had some of the oldest bolts I'd found on the highway. Two dolt bolts. That area has actually been used as a toprope area for as long as it has a bouldering spot. You really don't have any right to be removing those bolts.
4. You say we knowingly retrobolted this route. That is also a blatant lie. That should be shown in my posts above and my attempts to discover if we were incorrect on the original route path. I've already said I did not retrobolt the route even though I had permission from yes, half the party. I intentionally did not retrobolt the route. Do not twist it to try and make yourself sound right.
5. You've never climbed this route. You've probably never even been to the wall. You're talking a lot about something you know nothing about. How can you retrobolt an alternate start? You're reaching.
6. I get it Andy and John, you like to change my name like some grade school children. It just makes you sound childish. You want someone to take you seriously than at least act like an adult.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Sep 30, 2015 - 09:03am PT
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I've already said I did not retrobolt the route even though I had permission from yes, half the party. I intentionally did not retrobolt the route. Do not twist it to try and make yourself sound right.
Makes absolutely no sense.
Did you or did you not (Prezwoodz) use ASCA supplied material/hardware to "Retro" any route, intentionally or unintentionally, with or without the FAer's permission, without the specific permission/approval to do so from any ASCA senior individual to so?
A simple yes or no answer and I will leave it at that.
Thank you.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:09am PT
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Brandon - Asking if Kelsey, or his partner Kristopher Klein, is being given ASCA bolts is a legitimate question. I'm absolutely sure some of his partners are. I know that some people who have publicly supported Kelsey's retro bolts have/are receiving ASCA supplies...
I have no doubt that there have been several people reading this that have donated to the ASCA. I think it's fair to ask what the ASCA is doing to our public lands?
I have never had a problem with replacing old hardware. When you have had at least one person known to have been supplied with replacement hardware from the ASCA who's been caught red handed adding bolts to at least 3 routes established 25 years ago it becomes a different story.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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The Chief - No, I did not use any ASCA hardware to retrobolt any route. Period.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 09:15am PT
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John what are you talking about? Did you not even read what I just sent you. You are wrong. I did not use any ASCA bolts on those Hocus Pocus or Splat Button and there are no ASCA bolts on this new route. Its a new route, all the bolts are ours! You would know this if you were a climber or had even bothered to go look at the climb.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:25am PT
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He ASCA bolts for replacement and his own for his retro jobs...
Claiming that Lemming Ranch wasn't retro bolted is crazy. Look at the photos you supplied. Here they are again...
Here the original route or an early variation on the right and Kelsey's retro bolts on the left.
Here's an shot of the FA or an early ascent. It's either the original line or an early variation.
Either way your new line of retro bolts crosses lemming ranch. If you traverse in from the left, like I did about 10 years ago, your bolts are right smack in the once runout traverse. If you start at the bottom and a little to the right, haven't done it this way, your bolts are right there in your face.
It's clear in the photo
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:34am PT
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I never claimed the retro bolts you placed on Hocus Pocus were ASCA bolts. Trust me I would know. I chopped them...
I claimed that you received replacement hardware from the ASCA and used your own stuff to retro bolt with. That was four years ago. Seems like nothing's changed. I Know you, and a few others, are still retro bolting. I know that a few public supporters of your retro bolting are receiving supplies from the ASCA...
My question is are you still receiving supplies from the ASCA?
Your comments like "you're not a climber" are laughable... Especially coming from someone who needs to resort to using his power drill to get up routes put up 25 years ago...
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 09:36am PT
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You did just claim that less then 6 posts up.
I have never had a problem with replacing old hardware. When you have had at least one person known to have been supplied with replacement hardware from the ASCA who's been caught red handed adding bolts to at least 3 routes established 25 years ago it becomes a different story.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:41am PT
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It's common knowledge that you have/are receiving bolts from the ASCA.
You have been caught red handed retro bolting three different routes...
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 09:46am PT
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No. I admitted to adding bolts to two climbs 5 years ago. I am the one who posted it. I don't think red handed is right. It was wrong. I admitted that. This new climb is not a retrobolt.
Yes, ASCA has sent me gear which I've used to replace 121 anchor bolts and 164 protection bolts. What have you done for this community other then try to trash it?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:54am PT
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These are retro bolts... It will get chopped
Look at the photos and explain how these aren't retro bolts. It very clear in the photos. Look at the one with your line of garbage on it and compare it to the one of the traverse in from the left. Your retro bolts are right in the middle of it.
Look at the photos! You can see your bolt are right there!
What have I done for the community? I cleaned up your f*#king mess on Splat Button and Hocus Pocus... Put in over 1,000 new pitches in the last decade... BTW my lines are much more sought after then yours. Not that any of it matters.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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Just wait for it.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:59am PT
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Where's the bolts in this photo?
They're here in your recent photo but not the old one. Pretty obvious...
Explain...
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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Even if our bolts were on the cliff in the original photo you could not see them. That photo of Roger climbing does not include any part of our new line.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:13am PT
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If buddy put the bolts in say 2 feet to the left of the rope, would you guys call that a new line?
In Canada there are routes 4 feet from the next regardless if someone happened to step on 10 feet of rock one day in the past.
Dude looks like he climbing up to a roof and the yellow drawn-in-line goes obviously to the right, how is this retro-fitting a route as they are not even heading in the same direction.
*I am not taking sides just curious to your 'local' ethics is all, neat to compare.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 10:20am PT
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The photo clearly shows Rodger traversing in from the left going right over your line of retro bolts... Are you blind?
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:22am PT
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Cave monkey is Skine, not Andy. I believe you are the one who changes names to disparage individuals. Andy did a route at Dew mound, and told you the name. Eddie Phay retro bolted it, and you gave the route a new disparaging name in your guidebook, while condoning the retrobolting of the route. Not real great for your short track record.
Ask yourself, what is the common thread with all the people that are offended by your lack of style, and actions. It's just that- your actions. Maybe EVERYBODY in the Alaska climbing community is just mean.....? Consider the common thread. People get reputations for a reason. Just saying.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 10:37am PT
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Greg - to answer your question about if the bolts were two feet to the left...
The answer would be an obvious NO! Something Kelsey is trying to hide is that Lemming Ranch has been climbed by starting at the bottom and going right past his first bolt. It's also been done by traversing in from the left going right past this third bolt. It's been done several times both ways. Kelsey knew this and decided to bolt it anyway. As an added insult he named his soon to be chopped garbage collateral damage.
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:09am PT
"Even if our bolts were on the cliff in the original photo you could not see them. That photo of Roger climbing does not include any part of our new line".
Your third bolt would be very close, maybe in, the bottom left of the photo of Rodger...it's clear in the photo
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