Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 147 of total 147 in this topic |
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 29, 2015 - 09:26pm PT
|
Kelsey why did you nuke your thread about your repeated retro bolting? The "bolt chopping question" thread.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2015 - 09:30pm PT
|
Was it this?
Sep 29, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
"I only use ASCA gear for rebolting so I'm not putting crap bolts in". This is from Kelsey today.
This is from the ASCA's homepage...
"The amount of protection on a climb is traditionally determined by the first to climb the route, and while climbing is a fairly anarchistic pursuit, the one revered tradition is that later climbers never add additional fixed protection to an existing route. In other words, the addition of bolts or pitons to existing routes is not tolerated unless the first person to do the route adds the bolts to their own route".
The ASCA supplied Kelsey with bolts after his intentional retro bolting of Hocus Pocus and Splat Button several years ago. Something about how he wouldn't do it again... We'll hear we are again. Go figure...
Is the ASCA still supplying him with bolts/hardware?
Is, or has, the ASCA supplied his partner Kristopher Klein with bolts/hardware?
Oddly enough the Alaska section on the ASCA site is down
Edit
|
|
ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2015 - 09:37pm PT
|
|
|
kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
|
The deleted thread, "Bolt Chopping Question", is at http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1397810&tn=0&mr=0
minus the 1st post, which I'm pasting below from Google's cache:
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 31, 2011 - 01:52am PT
So today was nice balmy 23 degrees but the sun was out and that warms the spirit. I grabbed my bag of goodies and proceeded to replace 16 bolts along the Seward Highway. I came across this one though that just wouldn't come out!! I worked on it for about 20 minutes. I was wondering what the best way is to actually chop a bolt? Especially something easy to carry.
Oh and one of those bolts today I reached up yanked on the webbing and it came out of the rock. The second one took two hits with a hammer and it was out. They were an anchor system that I had just lowered and then reclimbed on. Ewww....
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
|
It's because you're wrong and I don't want to support your ranting any longer. You have a Problem with me then bring it to me in person.
|
|
cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2015 - 10:40pm PT
|
Chelsea
You are wrong
Its sad that you don't even see it
I hope you will learn by continuing to immerse yourself in the culture
Someday, I hope you understand
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2015 - 10:40pm PT
|
"We didn't put it up as an alternate start but it can be used as one by running it out on unprotected ground. How many climbs have alternate starts?"
Here you are admitting to adding a retro bolted alternate start. It's also not unprotected anymore... You go right past the bolt in your photo..
"It makes it a more appetizing climb that will probably see a lot more traffic at this point".
Here's Kelsey admitting to them being retro bolts again.
"The first bolt does look like it could be on or near the route".
These are the words right out of your mouth.
Explain how these aren't retro bolts.
Gotta have pictures...
Retro bolts
Per retro bolts
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2015 - 10:50pm PT
|
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
|
|
The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2015 - 10:54pm PT
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
Sep 29, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
It's because you're wrong and I don't want to support your ranting any longer. You have a Problem with me then bring it to me in person.
I have a real big problem with people possibly inappropriately utilizing ASCA material for their personal climbing endeavors.
I was one of those folks that spent over ten years rebolting (for the ASCA) well over 500 routes throughout the Southwest and CA.
So... John Kelley, thanks for bringing this to the attention of us all.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 06:38am PT
|
Yeah that's part of it but there's more now...
This is at least the third line Kelsey Gay has knowing and intentionally retro bolted.
The ASCA continued to supply him with bolts after knowing that Splat Button and Hocus Pocus had been retro bolted.
Kelsey spewed his usual bs, basically anything to justify his actions. "I'll get permission from the FA team when I find them, it's only 5 bolts"...
Here we are only a few years later and nothing's changed. It's clear that the Lemming Ranch has been retro bolted. Same bs justifications as the last time. The exact same bs.
What's the ASCA's part in this?
Is he still bring given bolts? Is his retro bolting partner Kristopher Klein receiving ASCA bolts? Is Lang Dommelen receiving ASCA bolts? Lang told me that he and some other received the last batch... How many ASCA bolts have been sent up here?
I don't and never have had any problem with bolts being replaced... However seems to me that the ASCA recipients, in the ANC area, are either actively retro bolting or actively and publicly supporting it. Prove me wrong... This isn't the first time it's happened here...
While I believe the ASCA means well something needs to change.
|
|
jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:08am PT
|
Just go buy your own bolts and hangers under the radar problem solved, and don't spew about on line. I don't need the ASCA ever..
|
|
jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:16am PT
|
You can take all the HUGE wippers you like on my shot out the boner bolts..lol!! SS 5 piece 8x3/4" LONG Boner bolts. Burchy enter Wipper ville.
Get a good job you can buy all that and more. I buy 2 or 3 hundred at a time.. ASCA is not needed ever. I know a few folks that get those bolts and do no route re-bolting. Just burning them up on new routes. Negating the real purpose.
|
|
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:18am PT
|
Dear John,
You're a jerk, period.
You have beef? Fine. But maybe you two should meet and talk in person to sort it out, as Kelsey has suggested.
Twisting his name to Gay, as if there is something inherently wrong with being gay? That's just subtle hate speak that only a true dickhead would use. We live in a more evolved time, man. Catch up.
You climb difficult lines, right? Take that advanced problem solving skill to the real world and you'll be getting somewhere.
Meet with the man, stop talking trash online or all you'll be met with are trashy replies.
Thanks in advance,
Brandon Mayo
|
|
The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:18am PT
|
8x3/4"
3 X 1/2" are just as strong shear wise and half the price.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....
|
|
jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:21am PT
|
U know Im joking Chief.
|
|
The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:24am PT
|
I am too. ;>
I got all my personally placed bolts at Wal-Mart & Sears.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:33am PT
|
I buy 2 or 3 hundred at a time..
That's enough for at least 100 routes in So Cal...
|
|
Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:37am PT
|
Very cool looking rock!
I am ignorant to this, but just curious, are those not two separate lines in the photo with the yellow line leading to the flaring crack and the one the guy is climbing on?
Or did you place bolts on the line which once took gear?
Confused as to the issue here.
|
|
Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:48am PT
|
Red Heads from Ace Hardware okay for FA?
Easy for ASCA to replace later. ;-)
----End Troll
Monster 8 x 3/8 bolts ridiculous unless used as TR, belay or major crux move on soft stone that is going to get hammered by repeated falls.
IMO heavy hardware on low angle moderate to easy where repeated falls are highly unlikely is to heavy handed. These are back-up placements that will rarely if ever see a fall.
People updating routes or putting up new ones in areas meant to be repeated should use environmental wisdom and craftsmanship.
ASCA should create a course and a handbook. It could be a revenue stream and help cut down on rebolting costs in the long run. Retailers should require a ASCA bolting card to sell hardware.
Guys like Jeff or the Chief could take an on line test in 10 minutes to get their card.
|
|
WyoRockMan
climber
South Fork of the Shoshone
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:53am PT
|
Retailers should require a ASCA bolting card to sell hardware.
I'm sure Home Depot would be in full compliance.
|
|
The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:54am PT
|
Hey Spider... Good point.
I actually spent quite a bit of time with G.Barnes doing several projects to see precisely what he and the ASCA protocols were. Then did all my ASCA sponsored deeds to those exact specifications/procedures with their material and hardware.
Just saying.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:55am PT
|
Alright, I feel like I've been brought in front of the principle to prove myself against the school bully but here we go. I'm mainly doing this because your ranting is affecting people such as The Chief who I respect for all that he's done. So here we go again.
1. I admitted then that I put bolts on Splat Button and Hocus Pocus. I believed then that making more lead lines on the highway was a bonus and I got a bit excited. It was my early run at bolting and unfortunate. Yeah I was wrong there and we've moved on from it. I did not use any ASCA bolts on that climb, which you claimed I did. Here's a quote from Greg Barnes that specifically tells you this in an email he sent to you -
We're aware that he added bolts to 2 climbs - Hocus Pocus and Splat Button - but that was before he got any ASCA gear. He says he did not add the bolts on any other routes and does not know who did. He said that he was not planning on ever adding bolts to anything again due to all the flack from those 2 routes, and that ASCA bolts will be used only for replacement. We are taking him at his word to a certain extent, but all of our bolts (hangers/rap hangers actually) are clearly stamped "ASCA" (factory stamped by Fixe in Spain), so it will be very obvious if they are misused.
In the same post I pulled that from he also tells you that you are blatantly lying. Its a habit you seem to have when you don't get what you want. My problem is I admit to my mistakes, which I have always done. I have not retrobolted any other climbs and certainly did not add any ASCA bolts. All the bolts on our new route are mine. I have no idea why the Alaska section for the ASCA website is down. It was far from updated as I'd sent a lot more information but they don't exactly have a big budget or a lot of workers. So I've kept my own list which I've allowed others to access. I also send that list to Greg so he can see exactly what I've done.
2. You were wrong before when you said that I'd retrobolted Degrees of Fruitfullness. I proved it was a replacement with pictures and supported by information from the previous guidebook. Do you admit it?
3. Bent Knee, the bolts that the ASCA supplies are 5 piece bolts that can be removed although it usually leaves in the sleeve. When they are first installed I put them at the best angle i can for the climb but during climbing they sometimes may come a bit loose with pulls at different angles. All it takes is usually a retighten to fix the problem. They can be over tightened, which I could do to solve this problem but then it would weaken the strength of the bolt. At least this is as far as I know, someone can correct me if I am wrong. Also you are referring to upper boy scout I presume. It was oddly enough one of my more memorable removals because it had some of the oldest bolts I'd found on the highway. Two dolt bolts. That area has actually been used as a toprope area for as long as it has a bouldering spot. You really don't have any right to be removing those bolts.
4. You say we knowingly retrobolted this route. That is also a blatant lie. That should be shown in my posts above and my attempts to discover if we were incorrect on the original route path. I've already said I did not retrobolt the route even though I had permission from yes, half the party. I intentionally did not retrobolt the route. Do not twist it to try and make yourself sound right.
5. You've never climbed this route. You've probably never even been to the wall. You're talking a lot about something you know nothing about. How can you retrobolt an alternate start? You're reaching.
6. I get it Andy and John, you like to change my name like some grade school children. It just makes you sound childish. You want someone to take you seriously than at least act like an adult.
|
|
The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 09:03am PT
|
I've already said I did not retrobolt the route even though I had permission from yes, half the party. I intentionally did not retrobolt the route. Do not twist it to try and make yourself sound right.
Makes absolutely no sense.
Did you or did you not (Prezwoodz) use ASCA supplied material/hardware to "Retro" any route, intentionally or unintentionally, with or without the FAer's permission, without the specific permission/approval to do so from any ASCA senior individual to so?
A simple yes or no answer and I will leave it at that.
Thank you.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:09am PT
|
Brandon - Asking if Kelsey, or his partner Kristopher Klein, is being given ASCA bolts is a legitimate question. I'm absolutely sure some of his partners are. I know that some people who have publicly supported Kelsey's retro bolts have/are receiving ASCA supplies...
I have no doubt that there have been several people reading this that have donated to the ASCA. I think it's fair to ask what the ASCA is doing to our public lands?
I have never had a problem with replacing old hardware. When you have had at least one person known to have been supplied with replacement hardware from the ASCA who's been caught red handed adding bolts to at least 3 routes established 25 years ago it becomes a different story.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 09:11am PT
|
The Chief - No, I did not use any ASCA hardware to retrobolt any route. Period.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 09:15am PT
|
John what are you talking about? Did you not even read what I just sent you. You are wrong. I did not use any ASCA bolts on those Hocus Pocus or Splat Button and there are no ASCA bolts on this new route. Its a new route, all the bolts are ours! You would know this if you were a climber or had even bothered to go look at the climb.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:25am PT
|
He ASCA bolts for replacement and his own for his retro jobs...
Claiming that Lemming Ranch wasn't retro bolted is crazy. Look at the photos you supplied. Here they are again...
Here the original route or an early variation on the right and Kelsey's retro bolts on the left.
Here's an shot of the FA or an early ascent. It's either the original line or an early variation.
Either way your new line of retro bolts crosses lemming ranch. If you traverse in from the left, like I did about 10 years ago, your bolts are right smack in the once runout traverse. If you start at the bottom and a little to the right, haven't done it this way, your bolts are right there in your face.
It's clear in the photo
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:34am PT
|
I never claimed the retro bolts you placed on Hocus Pocus were ASCA bolts. Trust me I would know. I chopped them...
I claimed that you received replacement hardware from the ASCA and used your own stuff to retro bolt with. That was four years ago. Seems like nothing's changed. I Know you, and a few others, are still retro bolting. I know that a few public supporters of your retro bolting are receiving supplies from the ASCA...
My question is are you still receiving supplies from the ASCA?
Your comments like "you're not a climber" are laughable... Especially coming from someone who needs to resort to using his power drill to get up routes put up 25 years ago...
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 09:36am PT
|
You did just claim that less then 6 posts up.
I have never had a problem with replacing old hardware. When you have had at least one person known to have been supplied with replacement hardware from the ASCA who's been caught red handed adding bolts to at least 3 routes established 25 years ago it becomes a different story.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:41am PT
|
It's common knowledge that you have/are receiving bolts from the ASCA.
You have been caught red handed retro bolting three different routes...
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 09:46am PT
|
No. I admitted to adding bolts to two climbs 5 years ago. I am the one who posted it. I don't think red handed is right. It was wrong. I admitted that. This new climb is not a retrobolt.
Yes, ASCA has sent me gear which I've used to replace 121 anchor bolts and 164 protection bolts. What have you done for this community other then try to trash it?
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:54am PT
|
These are retro bolts... It will get chopped
Look at the photos and explain how these aren't retro bolts. It very clear in the photos. Look at the one with your line of garbage on it and compare it to the one of the traverse in from the left. Your retro bolts are right in the middle of it.
Look at the photos! You can see your bolt are right there!
What have I done for the community? I cleaned up your f*#king mess on Splat Button and Hocus Pocus... Put in over 1,000 new pitches in the last decade... BTW my lines are much more sought after then yours. Not that any of it matters.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 09:56am PT
|
Just wait for it.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:59am PT
|
Where's the bolts in this photo?
They're here in your recent photo but not the old one. Pretty obvious...
Explain...
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:09am PT
|
Even if our bolts were on the cliff in the original photo you could not see them. That photo of Roger climbing does not include any part of our new line.
|
|
Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:13am PT
|
If buddy put the bolts in say 2 feet to the left of the rope, would you guys call that a new line?
In Canada there are routes 4 feet from the next regardless if someone happened to step on 10 feet of rock one day in the past.
Dude looks like he climbing up to a roof and the yellow drawn-in-line goes obviously to the right, how is this retro-fitting a route as they are not even heading in the same direction.
*I am not taking sides just curious to your 'local' ethics is all, neat to compare.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 10:20am PT
|
The photo clearly shows Rodger traversing in from the left going right over your line of retro bolts... Are you blind?
|
|
F
climber
away from the ground
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:22am PT
|
Cave monkey is Skine, not Andy. I believe you are the one who changes names to disparage individuals. Andy did a route at Dew mound, and told you the name. Eddie Phay retro bolted it, and you gave the route a new disparaging name in your guidebook, while condoning the retrobolting of the route. Not real great for your short track record.
Ask yourself, what is the common thread with all the people that are offended by your lack of style, and actions. It's just that- your actions. Maybe EVERYBODY in the Alaska climbing community is just mean.....? Consider the common thread. People get reputations for a reason. Just saying.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 10:37am PT
|
Greg - to answer your question about if the bolts were two feet to the left...
The answer would be an obvious NO! Something Kelsey is trying to hide is that Lemming Ranch has been climbed by starting at the bottom and going right past his first bolt. It's also been done by traversing in from the left going right past this third bolt. It's been done several times both ways. Kelsey knew this and decided to bolt it anyway. As an added insult he named his soon to be chopped garbage collateral damage.
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:09am PT
"Even if our bolts were on the cliff in the original photo you could not see them. That photo of Roger climbing does not include any part of our new line".
Your third bolt would be very close, maybe in, the bottom left of the photo of Rodger...it's clear in the photo
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:38am PT
|
Yeah there are really just three angry people every time. Everytime this flares up its the same three. Thats why it really doesn't bother me that much. Because 99% of the Alaska climbing community is friendly.
John. You cannot see any of our new route in the picture. I'm not blind but I think you might need to look closer. Even if our route was there when the picture was taken you couldn't see the bolts in the picture.
|
|
Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:40am PT
|
Greg - to answer your question about if the bolts were two feet to the left...
The answer would be an obvious yes! Something Kelsey is trying to hide is that Lemming Ranch has been climbed by starting at the bottom and going right past his first bolt. It's also been done by traversing in from the left going right past this third bolt. It's been done several times both ways. Kelsey knew this and decided to bolt it anyway. As an added insult he named his soon to be chopped garbage collateral damage.
Ok thanks for making this clear. I am just an outsider and my opinion aint much but just curious how others view this kinda stuff and how others on public forums from afar view it. Thanks.
In this case, with what you wrote, I agree with you.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:41am PT
|
I'm assuming your speaking of Chump Monkey. Which is sort of funny considering the name that Andy gave it. Here's the short history of a short route. Eddie, Dan, and he says Andy could have been there but he doesn't remember it that way, go and climb the route. Then later Andy climbs it again and names it "non-local guidebook writers suck" to rip on me. Eddie wasn't to happy with Andy renaming his route so he called it Chump Monkey Among Us. Then he bolted it, which is not a retro as its his route. And there it is.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 10:45am PT
|
Three? Haha
You should take a closer look....
See Rodger? Remember this was taken before your f*#k up...
See where your retro bolt garbage is? See the ledge to the left?
Tell me how it would be possible for him to have gone from that ledge without passing directly over your most recent botched retro job?
You knowingly bolted right over Escape from the Lemming Ranch and posted photos to prove it.
Grey - this isn't the first time Kelsey's poor choices have reflected badly on the ASCA. At present it seems the ASCA is willingly supplying a know retro bolted. Not only that but one who's been caught red handed several times. The last time he got caught I was told, by you that he agreeded to cease retro bolting. That obviously didn't happen. Are you going to continue to supply him?
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:45am PT
|
The route name Collateral Damage is actually from the fact that we both had places to be hours before we left the wall. We were both late to meet with our significant others and I was missing a pretty important meeting to do so. So we called it Collateral Damage, but both his wife and my girlfriend are kind of amazing and neither was upset so the name was unnecessary anyway and all in our minds. Ya you can rip on that too but it doesn't matter. I'm giving you the truth. You should try doing the same.
Also I had no idea someone would come from all the way on the left to start the route. Anyone who did that was skipping the main intention of the route anyway and already cheapening it. Sort of hypocritical since its something you said you did.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:47am PT
|
He didn't go from the ledge on the left john. Didn't you repost the picture he sent me a bunch of times? He went the lower ledge to the right of our entire bolt line.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:56am PT
|
Are any bolts legitimate? Were they grandfathered in somehow? And was it determined that the FA team, adding something very unnatural to a natural landscape, was prescient enough to know how many, to a precise number, were okay?
|
|
Roger Pollard
Trad climber
Alaska
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:58am PT
|
I would like to clear up a few things about the climb: Escape From the Lemming Ranch (EFLR). I did this climb with Jim Sweeney back in the 80s.
First a little history... it was led from the ground up trailing an 10.5mm rope, brush and hammer along with a few pins and a 1/4 drill...just in case..sorta old school I guess. It was the obvious line on the Inferno and ascends a nice clean white granite corner that protects very well but is prone to zippering if the leader does not oppose nuts at the base of the dihedral. The confusion as to where the route is... confuses me... since it seems so obvious. I mentioned to Kelsey that I thought the first section up to the corner was poorly protected and when I got a chance a welded a bomber monster lost arrow below the near the base of the dihedral. As a side note I was later belaying a climber on the second ascent who took a 30 footer when he popped high on the corner and zippered all the pro. The pin saved his life (is the pin still there? or pulled due to..) I recommended also that someone place a bolt on the lower poorly protected section and replace the hand drilled 1/4 in belay anchors. In my prejudiced view this is one of the best routes in the Hatcher Pass area. It was climbed the way it was climbed due to circumstance not an attempt to be bold. What matters is that people climb the route and enjoy it and due to the limited number of climbs I feel the safer the climb is the more people can enjoy it.
If you wanna do it old school then don't clip the bolt. If I was there I'd go up and put one in myself. The new route "Collateral Damage" is to the left of EFLR and does not cross the route. Its nice to see more routes going up on that rock. Check out The Taxman Cometh, also a great climb that needs no bolts (but could probably use a good cleaning). Attached is an old photo of the climb to help clarify.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:59am PT
|
A question that has required many a talk and conference among climbers. Whats your thoughts on it donini? Not this specific route but on the idea you raised?
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:03am PT
|
Thank you Roger.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 11:08am PT
|
Kelsey you can see where he is in the photo.
I "cheapened" it? How? When I left it was the same as it was before I got there. I didn't feel the need to add a bunch of bolts to lower it down to my standard...It's still runout 5.10. It used to be before you retro bolted it anyway... It's not anymore though.
I didn't add the bolts to Lemming Ranch...you did. Yeah I "cheapened" it. You "cheapened it" for everyone.
If you think it's easy to come in from the left wait until it gets the chop and try it.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:10am PT
|
I sport climb quite a lot but I don't bring bolts on alpine first ascents....haven't since 1976. Just pointing out that it's all arbitrary, if not artifice. Certain things got grandfathered in and became sacrosanct......so be it. I'm too old to care enough to argue a point. I just climb and do it my way.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:13am PT
|
John - Read the above post by Roger.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:14am PT
|
donini - Thanks for the extra words of thought.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 11:16am PT
|
Cool... Kelsey sounds like Kelsey bolted my bolt free variation from the left... Chop chop
There's no reason this thing all of a sudden needs bolts added to it. Not clipping the bolts is like walking down a road and pretending there aren't cars going by...
Rodger here's what your partner Sweeney had to say about it...
"Hadn't heard about Lemming Ranch. Thought it had good pro... Pussies".
Does it sound like you have both agreed to hand it over to Kelsey to do whatever he wants with it? Why in the world would give someone "permission" to do something that you know is gonna cause a shitstorm? Maybe you didn't know? Might have been a shortage of well protected.10's the last time you were here but that's not the case anymore...
Even Kelsey's partner has offered to remove the bolts...
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:22am PT
|
I think I've proven my point and I don't think you've ever climbed it. Its not a retrobolt. Move on John. At least admit you're wrong.
|
|
F
climber
away from the ground
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:25am PT
|
You are lying and obfuscating again Kelsey. Eddie failed to top rope that line. Andy came along and bolted it and led it. Eddie came back from wherever he was hiding years later, and added 2 more bolts then made the SECOND LEAD ascent of the route. You chose to condone his actions, and change the route name because you don't like Andy. Reputations happen for a reason. Just like John has a reputation for being a bit of an outspoken blowhard bad ass alpine climber. And you have a reputation as being a retro bolter.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:29am PT
|
Time to move on F. Nothing to see here. We can argue about who put up what and who called it what but I'm tired of all of it. It doesn't really matter. Go climb.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 11:30am PT
|
Kelsey - I'll admit this... I gonna chop your bolts. Several others will too...
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:32am PT
|
You're showing your true colors now. It was never about the retrobolting that you thought happened. It was about me. For some reason you just need someone to hate, like you don't have enough people already.
Move on.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:34am PT
|
Cool, john.... Good for you... Maybe spending a day out exercising will chill you out. Your silly bolt war looks so f*#king trivial coming from Cali and this tempest in a teapot sh#t is hilarious.
|
|
Dommelheimer
Trad climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:37am PT
|
John, you don't know who I am. You're clearly an inflammatory, unstable person, lie all you want, lie about what your motive here are, lie about your relationship with the climbing community in Alaska, lie about who you know, lie about where and what you can climb. How about you show Roger Pollard a little respect?
|
|
canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:45am PT
|
Can't you kids just have a dust up in the parking lot like real hard men?
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:46am PT
|
Kelseys a big dude I wouldn't recommend that (maybe if all 3?)
|
|
Bent knee
Ice climber
VT
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:48am PT
|
Sorry Kelsey these were poorly installed, both hangers loose, and one stud was not properly seated. No amount of human force on that 20 ft bouldering rarely top roped wall could have created the force necessary to do what you hypothesize in such a short time. Anyways, it's a moot point the hangers have been long removed.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 11:54am PT
|
Is this not you? If it's not I apologize
Seems like it to me? Why would you post that if it's a lie? Do you not want us to know? Why not?
|
|
Dommelheimer
Trad climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:58am PT
|
We used ASCA bolts to replaced hundreds of bolts throughout Alaska, I've placed ASCA bolts and I have a couple more most recently the anchor on Zulu wall. You're welcome, that anchor was dangerous.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:59am PT
|
Probably the first step one takes toward improving their climbing is to admit that a line is beyond one's present ability. Bolting a natural feature is a way of escaping that essential admission.
All of the animus created by bolting degrades our ability to enjoy climbing's sense of freedom. We already have tons of routes.
Isn't bolting a net loss to us all?
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 12:04pm PT
|
Dommelheimer
Trad climber
Anchorage
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:37am PT
"John, you don't know who I am. You're clearly an inflammatory, unstable person, lie all you want, lie about what your motive here are, lie about your relationship with the climbing community in Alaska, lie about who you know, lie about where and what you can climb. How about you show Roger Pollard a little respect?"
Ok kid you just lied about receiving ASCA bolts and I proved it...
Who have I lied about knowing?
What have I lied about climbing?
Remember to provide some "proof" like I have done to "prove" that you are lying...
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
|
See?
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 12:11pm PT
|
Oh and Lang you aren't fooling anyone by deleting your post... Like the one you erased a few minutes ago about how you have never received and ASCA bolts...
Anyone know if it's possible to recover he post he erased here and on Mt Project? There have been several.... The tactic is simply... He post something to solicit an answer the goes back and erase his post.
|
|
Dommelheimer
Trad climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
|
for all of your ethical platitudes John, you're ignoring the fact that Roger Pollard told you that this wasn't a retrobolt, and that frankly he thinks the Lemming Ranch needs a bolt. You're right I've used ASCA bolts, you're welcome for making the climbing in this state safer, Whats wrong with ASCA bolts? What's wrong with guys like me actually giving a sh#t about the climbs here, I don't want to lower or fall on dangerous bolts, I don't want others to, how about leaving ASCA out of this, since it has nothing to do with this route or discussion. If you are worried about who is getting ASCA bolts, stop. no one using ASCA hardware is using them for retrobolts, or it would seem retrobolting How about you get the next order and go replace bolts. Admit that you're not angry about a bolt on a new line you'll never climb, but simply dislike Kelsey. Until you are giving back to the community in Hatcher, stop talking. please.
|
|
Lurkingtard
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
|
Lol what a tool.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
|
Ok so you failed to answer either question?
Who claimed I've lied about who I know and what/where I've climbed so again...
Who have I lied about knowing?
With who and where have I lied about climbing?
And....
Why did you just lie about receiving ASCA bolts? Remember I just provided "proof" you were lying and then you admitted to it... Why?
I asked you repeatedly to back up your accusations that I'm lying several time but every time you have been unable to do so...
|
|
Lurkingtard
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
|
Seriously, dude. F*#king call him or go to his house. Why are you posting this here?
No one cares.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
|
Oh and Lang Dommele keep in mind the only time I ever mentioned you here was when I asked if you had received any ASCA bolts. That was it...
Your immediate response was to lie about it. Why?
Then you chose to tell some more lies about me...but of course you can't back up any of it.
Greg - If the ASCA is doing such a great "service" here why do those representing them in AK feel the need to lie about it? If all that's happening is bolts getting replaced why is there a need to cover it up? The only reason to lie about it is to cover something up!
I don't mean it as an inflammatory question. I really would appreciate an honest answer.
A few more quick questions...
What do you guys think about all the recently added retro bolts on Sunshine Ridge? I mean the new retro bolts that some guy named Chris Williams has taken credit for by claiming it's a "new" route, which it isn't, on the MP guide?
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 01:24pm PT
|
John, I will repeat what I said to you years ago in private emails: We are always open to criticism and specific reports of ASCA bolts used for retrobolting. I repeatedly asked you to provide specific details, and you did not. Honestly, you came across as angry and vindictive.
As far as I can tell, the FA of the route you are posting about has chimed in to say that the new route - not done with ASCA hardware anyway - is not a retrobolt. That's pretty much end of story (and it doesn't matter that the FA would like the actual route he did to have a bolt or two added). If you climbed sections of the newly bolted route without bolts in the past, but did not identify it clearly in guidebooks, it's pretty unreasonable to get mad if someone bolts a new route involving sections you happened to climb years ago but not tell anyone about, particularly if you were climbing an established route via an unusual start.
On a more general note -
I think it's really important for climbers who want to preserve dangerous routes to mentor and communicate with the newer generation of climbers. One of the main reasons I got into replacing more obscure routes was to preserve the route - if newer climbers see that the climbing community cares enough to replace the bolts on old dangerous routes, they're much less likely to add bolts to the same routes (even had one FA guy ask "why the h___ did you replace that route? No one ever does it." - about a 5.10d R/X he'd established!).
If we don't do a good job mentoring newer climbers about the mental challenges that runout routes provide, then wholesale retrobolting of our favorite runout routes is only a matter of time. I remember one hardcore partner - while we were replacing a 5.10 X route and he was leading it ground-up with a bolt replacement kit, clipping 1/4" and just replacing one bolt at each anchor on lead! - asking "How many years before this route gets retrobolted?" He took the long view and didn't ask "if" but "when". Sad…but unless we do better about taking the gym generation(s) under our wing, maybe he's right (I hope not!).
We have to teach newer climbers to appreciate the mental challenge of doing dangerous routes. If we come across as vindictive, angry, blustery - this sort of attitude is embarrassing, and it makes it harder to convince newer climbers that runout routes are worth preserving. Otherwise, sooner or later, we're headed for what some French climbers call "the democratization of climbing" - namely retrobolting everything (including cracks)...
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
|
The "domecratratization of climbing" is under way here... Thanks for encouraging it
"We have to teach newer climbers the mental challenge of doing dangerous routes". I couldn't agree more. That's what Lemming Ranch was before the retro.
I see you failed to answer the question as to why is there a need to lie about receiving ASCA hardware? As I've asked before... Why lie about it unless there is something to hide? I think Lang should answer that one...
Further more permission from the FA party means just that. Permission from the party not permission from an individual of that party.... Like I said before I contacted the other half of the FA. The half that's still here and is pretty easy to find. He was unaware of the new retro job and good luck trying to convince him Kelsey's bolts are on a new and independent line... They're not.
So, correct me if I'm wrong, has the ASCA's policy changed to supplying know retro bolters with bolts as long as they only retro bolt with their stuff?
Greg - One last question, for now...have you made a trip up here since the ASCA has started supplying bolts to guys here? I have absolutely no doubt it would be a severe disappointment for you to see it with your own eyes....
|
|
FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
|
Chop them all & let god sort them out.
|
|
Larry Nelson
Social climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 02:30pm PT
|
fivethirty wrote:
this thread is more entertaining than netflix. i hope the asca keeps sending kelsey bolts if only just to keep it alive.
I love the spray, but too old to care about the details.
It helps that I am familiar with the routes, pass the popcorn.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 03:24pm PT
|
Lol burch
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 03:30pm PT
|
I'd like to understand the ASCA's policy regarding fixed anchor placement and replacment on public lands in the state of Alaska.
Specifically I'd like to know who is doing the anchor installments and where? How many ASCA bolts/hangers have been provided? How many have been installed? In addition I'd like to know how these individuals are selected? This is occurring on public lands. I feel it's a fair question.
|
|
franky
Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
|
I just want to chime in and say thanks to the ASCA and you've stated your case well. I would discourage any more dialog with this dude as logic was abandoned long ago, probably before the first post.
My only real concern is with the statements that ASCA bolts were installed poorly during standard bolt replacement operations. Personally, all the ASCA hardware I've ever seen looks good, so I'm skeptical, but I'm curious if there is any evidence one way or the other.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
|
Hey I think it's a fair question...
FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Sep 30, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
"Chop them all & let god sort them out".
Be careful... Kelsey will say your not local enough
It's God, Guns, and Oil
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 03:47pm PT
|
OK, lets change gears. New game. Everytime John Kelly calls someone who otherwise sounds like a decent person a liar like he's repeatedly doing to multiple people on multiple web sites: we all need to stop what we are doing and take a drink.
Thought you were going to go whack the bolts John? All you are doing is yapping online like a wound up Pomeranian who just heard the mailman outside.
|
|
Chossboss
Trad climber
The GNAR
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 03:56pm PT
|
OK, lets change gears. New game. Everytime John Kelly calls someone who otherwise sounds like a decent person a liar like he's repeatedly doing to multiple people on multiple web sites: we all need to stop what we are doing and take a drink.
Yes! Is pre-gamming alowed? Also, do we get extra points if we drink while retrobolting?
|
|
Lurkingtard
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 04:09pm PT
|
I'm guessing this dude is like 5'2".
With a schmecle to boot.
|
|
ruppell
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 04:16pm PT
|
|
|
jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 04:18pm PT
|
Woo Hoo thread Shift!! Awesome. Bolt wars!!
|
|
Larry Nelson
Social climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
|
FWIW:
Seems like a lot of he said / she said spray,
but if an "upgrade" to a climb changes the character or psychology of that climb, it's a disservice to the person who established it.
Not as much tradition at Reed Lakes as Yosemite, but...
Edit: Sure like the awesome TR to the Arrigetch Peaks
|
|
kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
|
I'm guessing this dude is like 5'2".
I don't know John Kelley personally, but he has done a LOT of hard climbing.
http://bfy.tw/23yg
|
|
Lurkingtard
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
|
Yeah and Nepoleon fought a lot of hard battles.
|
|
Lurkingtard
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 04:56pm PT
|
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 30, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
Lurchingturd isn't interested in this squabble. It said so six times hahahahahaha.
Idiot.
DMT
Quit sniffing my ass dipshitMT.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
|
I'm sure outside of this one isolated incident he's a cool dude.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 05:45pm PT
|
I am embarrassed now to being born in Anchorage.
|
|
whoops
climber
paradise, ca
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 06:20pm PT
|
Did I read that right? Did he call Greg Barnes a liar? Wow dude, you need to step away from the keyboard. The real common denominator here is you calling everyone else a liar. Your credibility is in the tank, your attitude sucks and you're just really unlikeable. With a show of hands, who wants John to stfu?
|
|
Bent knee
Ice climber
VT
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 06:34pm PT
|
Dug through an old box of climbing kit and found one of the hangers I pulled. If you look at the hanger it's virtually brand new, there isn't even a mark where the nut should have been seated, the rings have no polishing from raps, basically looks brand new from the box. IMO, TR forces did not unscrew the bolt, Again this hanger was located on a 20- 25ft chunk of rock probably 35 feet long with a flat top out and a two second walk off. and the back
I have never once bouldered with a wrench these were removed by hand. I stand by my actions.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
|
I replace the bolts to the best of my ability. I can't really confirm or deny that the bolt your showing me is from that climb or that it wasn't placed correctly. I haven't gone back there to check and I wasn't there when you pulled it. If the only problem was that it wasn't tightened enough then I think that is something you could have fixed quickly by tightening it. Have you ever replaced or set a bolt and then used it only to have it spin quickly thereafter? I used those anchors you're referring to several times unless I still don't really know which one you're talking about. Is it Upper Boy Scout? I haven't been there for a few years but the last time I was I brought my mother up there. Essentially what your saying is that you went around and stole hardware off routes that were replacements without doing anything to make it better yourself. Just making things more dangerous as you went along. Maybe you should at least send it back to the ASCA instead of keeping it.
Just because you climb it without a rope doesn't mean that historically thats how it was done. Someone placed those dolt bolts and its probably before any of us were climbing.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:15pm PT
|
Let's see... Guy goes and chops some poorly installed ASCA retro junk... Kelsey bitches to him about chopping his poorly retro installed ASCA supplied bolt... Awesome
|
|
RocKleiner
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 09:28pm PT
|
Hi John,
You don’t know me, but my name is Kris Klein. I am going to make this one public post and then I am not going to respond publicly…It's simply not worth it. I invite anyone to speak to me privately over a beer or coffee, or over the phone. Online discussions lead people to say things they wouldn’t otherwise say (myself included). I put up the line Collateral Damage with Kelsey, which is in no way references bolts near the bottom of the climb – Kelsey has already explained the route name. Obviously the irony doesn’t escape me. As some background, apparently I am in the generation of disconnected climbers you speak of, since you were born four years before me. I started climbing almost 20 years ago, outside, at the Gunks. I never set foot in a gym during the first 10 years that I climbed. Now the gym is simply a commitment I must make to climb to the level I want to outside. I have climbed all over the world, but the places I think of as most special, beside my new home Alaska (coming up on 4 years), are the Gunks and J-Tree where I have climbed countless times and these are the places where my climbing ethics were developed. I often choose not to climb routes (especially at places like J-tree) based on my own risk tolerance, but I have also chosen to climb riskier routes on occasion. I put up a 5 pitch route in the sound last summer with my wife without a single bolt…I have also never published it anywhere because frankly, I don’t care.
I rarely place bolts. I only own a hand drill and I’m not going to install ¼ bolts, so that means I’m certainly not grid bolting. I have replaced a few anchors that would likely have killed my climbing partner (my wife). I have never received an ASCA bolt, but I do applaud their work. I have reached the anchors on climbs a number of times and simply refused to bring my wife up because of rusted spinning ¼ inchers with Leepers. This happened on several occasions in Hatcher when we first moved here. Thankfully, many of those dangerous anchors have been replaced and I have enjoyed hundreds of days of climbing up there. Some of the anchor’s I encountered were so bad (and I have seen terrible anchors in other areas ex. re-drilled leepers on ½ inch bolts), I wouldn’t rule out that Kelsey, Chris Williams, and the ASCA could have saved someone’s life in Alaska with their work over the past few years. On the route collateral damage, I believe there were 8 bolts placed, along with 3 or 4 potential (some questionable), gear placements on the 28m route. No bolts were placed where “adequate” gear could be found and we have already been questioned about the adequacy of that gear, although I think there are plenty of options.
Keep in mind here that I am really not all that important in this discussion. I am not well known and I am an average climber. Do you know who IS important in this discussion: The FA, ROGER POLLARD. The lack of respect I have witnessed on this thread and by talking to others truly upsets me. For example: “He probably only climbed the route once” – DOESN’T MATTER. “He probably hasn’t had a harness on for 20 years” – DOESN’T MATTER. “He doesn’t live here anymore” – DOESN’T MATTER. “He hasn’t been to Hatcher in 20 years” – DOESN’t MATTER. I am not going to call out the people who made these comments – you know who you are. And then there were the direct comment’s made to Roger on this thread. Roger was the very first person (and one of only a few) who has ever led this route. It just shows how selective the thinking is for this very small group trying to rule over the majority using some sort of convoluted and inconsistent age/generation/ethics argument, while having a complete disregard for the FA. I can’t believe the way you glossed over and responded to Roger on this thread. This lack of respect you have shown for this climber has solidified my opinions and actually led me to make this post (I was just fine sitting back watching the train wreck along with you coming closer and closer to making libelous statements about me).
You have repeatedly spoken in the many different threads about respect, tradition and my generation vs. your generation (yup…you have 4 years on me). I believe the statement was made that “Some of us were climbing in the 80’s as opposed to being born.” Well Roger put up this route when you were 10 years old and living in the climbing mecca of…Athens, GA?!? Show some respect for this man. It is not a few years that earns respect…it is who you are as a person and how you treat others.
I don’t know you at all, so I have no clue whether you have been to Inferno wall, but here is a general description of the area (of course look at the photos, but ALL of them are deceiving in one way or the other based on angles – some make the routes look closer and others further away). I encourage anyone and everyone to get out there. Some background for the peanut gallery (which I know we have plenty of at this point): A fall from the first questionable piece on Escape from the Lemming Ranch would result in a 25 foot fall to the ledge and another 15-20 feet to the ground. I do not think this warrants unauthorized retrobolting, it is simply for perspective and an explanation of why even our stronger, bolder climbers don’t do this route, despite its amazing upper crack section. I have not led this route and I’m not sure I would without a replacement pin or Roger’s requested bolt. But I am fine with not leading it. That’s my choice, but I didn’t place these bolts to “bring it down to my level.” The middle part of Collateral Damage is probably 30 feet from the middle section of EFLR and the upper part is far enough away that a separate anchor was needed to prevent a large pendulum for the second. Roger actually said it appeared there was some great potential to the left of Escape from the Lemming Ranch, albeit difficult.
Much of my own decision making on the development of this route was based on Pollard’s route line posted on Rockclimbing.com, which has been shared repeatedly. Roger had already approved a bolt at the time of our climb, but we did not put that in. We instead started Collateral Damage approximately 15-20 feet give or take to the left of Roger’s posted route line for EFLR (what better info could we get than a route line drawn by the FA, along with a statement that there appeared to be good potential to the left, especially since the original belay pin had been “bootied as a momento” as previously posted). Seeing a pin directly below where we chose to start the route would have obviously been important information to have at the time, had the pin not been removed without a replacement belay anchor or any record. None of the bolts are ideally (in my opinion) placed to protect a fall if the piece of pro in the “shallow flaring crack”(pollards descriptions) failed. The intent was not to provide protection for EFLR. The third bolt has to be slung double to reduce drag during the traverse right. I believe fall from there could still either result in a deck, or a massive swing into the corner. I am not positive as I have not climbed it, but I invite anyone to do so (Probably in the spring). If that is an intentional retro conspiracy with myself as one of the “co-conspirators”, it is a crappy one.
Our ethics may be different, John, I’m not sure, but I do NOT believe that because a route is runout 25 feet, it precludes any route development anywhere with the potential for a traverse into the route. I’ll use an example from routes I have climbed in another area with strong ethics.
The route True Dice 10a X (1974) in J-Tree is an X rated line with a 25-foot runout to a splitter crack in Conan’s Coridor. The route is rarely led. Bob Gaines put up the route Boulderado to the left of True Dice in 2009. Now the first 3 bolts of this route can be climbed with the third slung long (not even sure I slung with a double), allowing an easy traverse into the upper crack of True Dice. (I’ve done this start and the upper crack is great for those interested). This alternate start is now referred to as Boulder Dice .10b, with the guidebook description “A much safer way to enjoy True Dice, without the death start! Climb the first 30 feet of Boulderado before traversing right to the true dice crack.” I am not saying that the situation is identical, but it is similar. If disrespecting Pollard is insufficient, maybe we should drag Bob Gaines into this as well. My point: these situations are NOT cut and dry and a reasonable discussion is best. This on the other hand, started out immediately as a witch hunt. Ogre Hunt? (That’s a compliment Kelsey, I promise). If you notice in the recent photo of the only post-bolt lead of EFLR that I know of (He can share if he wants, I’m not dragging him in – John I believe you have seen it), he slung the third bolt on Collateral Damage with a double length runner, to prevent the drag that would result from the traverse right to the questionable first gear placement, followed by the continued traverse to the top of EFLR.
SKIP AHEAD A FEW DAYS IN MY THINKING (And in response to the comment that Kelsey’s partner agreed to chop the bolts): Pollard’s revised route line, shared by Kelsey in the threads, changed my feelings a bit. This new line moved the route an estimated 10 feet to the left closer to Collateral Damage, apparently to where the bootied pin once resided. I felt like this new information suggested that Collateral Damage was crowding the start of EFLR. Since prior to that, the best source of information was the route line drawn by one of the FA party, and the original belay pin had been pulled for a home decoration, I think beginning the route far to the other side of the ledge from the original route line was reasonable at the time, especially since Roger had indicated that there was great potential for a harder route to the left. However, based on the new information and my own ethics, I offered privately (i.e. off this thread) to make a change to the beginning of Collateral Damage to make it start a bit higher, getting rid of, or moving the first 2 bolts. I do not take this stuff lightly.
Then I was reminded by some people far wiser than myself…This isn’t MY route! As I mentioned earlier, my feelings on this changed when I saw the blatant disrespect for the FA and his instruction with regard to the route. I will not be removing/moving these bolts per the instruction of FA, Roger Pollard. Whatever my feeling may be, he has spoken, publicly, right on this forum for us all to see. Some climbing communities are not so fortunate to be able to get the opinion of the person who first led a route. I understand that you have a quote from Sweeney that says, "Hadn't heard about Lemming Ranch. Thought it had good pro... Pussies". I respect what he says. I’m a “pussy” (although I don’t think my wife would approve of the term). Frankly, I don’t trust you as a source or the info Sweeney was likely given by you before that statement was made, however, his statement doesn't actually contradict what Pollard is saying. I know I keep saying it, but I CANNOT believe your response in this thread to Pollard…unbelievable.
If the route is destroyed over Pollard’s direction by a vigilante vandal on some all-mighty tirade, I believe you are saying I should take it upon myself to “fix” all the mixed metal bolts, bolts with crap chain links instead of hangers, and bolts right next to cracks that have been put up in Hatcher in the valley above Monolith to the East, and elsewhere, since much of this online debate seems to actually focus on crap bolting jobs and the rock in many of these areas was defaced by “garbage” hardware. If it is vigilantism that you want, I guess that is what we will have, however, one little group will not be the sole overlords. I truly hope this is not the direction we take. Pollard has spoken publicly…THE END.
I dislike public name-calling about this stuff and hope to have constructive future conversations. We are a very small community here. I’m sure pieces of what I have said can be picked apart – I don’t care and you won’t get a response on any public forum. I would welcome any response sent directly to me. I am easy to get a hold of. That is an invitation to any and all of you. Maybe since we are in the shoulder season up here people are bored, or depressed from a lack of climbing – go hiking, fat biking, or if you are so fortunate, take a trip to the desert and climb…get outside, it will help. I am always up to get outside.
AND, if we really care about protecting the rock and climbs in our area, lets get to work together on saving Goats Head from complete destruction by the state. In this one area we can save climbs put up by Steve Garvey, Dave Whitelaw, Eddie Phay, and Amy Johnson among others.
I have spoken my piece.
Kris
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 09:38pm PT
|
I don't believe that the bolt was poorly installed. If it was then we need to talk about it because I don't believe in placing bad bolts. I won't say I'm infallible because I'm not. Also he didn't "chop" anything. He unscrewed a bolt meant to be able to be removed that way.
What else do you think was wrong with the bolt? Was it that it was only loose? That anchor services three climbs. Two are on one face and one is on another face so the anchor can be pulled in different directions. Once again I'm still assuming that we're talking about the same anchor.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:17pm PT
|
If you guys keep advertising the climbing on the Seward Highway you'll find parking difficult to find. The joys of climbing chossy rock in chilly rain whilst Beluga Whales frolic in the sea below will no longer be yours alone.
Given the tenor of this thread....you'll probably tell newcomers that there is great clamming in the mudflats when the tide is out. Then you can enjoy watching them trying to unstick their boots as the bore tide comes rushing in.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
|
If you think I was 10 in 1993 then you need to learn how to add... As I've stated before I was climbing at, maybe a little under, that grade when this route went in. If you think this makes me 4 years older then you again learn to count.
Here's a tip... Since you want me to be helpful.
Use your fingers...and toes
If you pull your pants down you'll have 19
You and Kelsey both are pretty good at dodging facts... Like the other half of the FA parties comments. Are you really claiming that I made that up? Same way Kelsey deals with the bad bolts he drilled that others come across. Simply calls whoever points it out a liar. Over and over...
Funny you bring up my hometown... As far as a meca it's a little too far but not by much. With The Cashiers Valley (whitesides, laurel knob) a little over an hour away, looking glass an hour and a half, and the souther edge of the Cumberland Plateau (t-wall, the red, LRC, and so much more) at about a two hour drive it certainly blows away the ANC area in everything climbing related with the obvious exception of mountaineering/alpine climbing.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:27pm PT
|
Donini I don't think anyone would climb long enough on the highway to make it crowded heh. It gets a lot of traffic but it also takes a certain kind of person to return year after year. Although a month ago I was climbing and the belugas were out in force. It was amazing.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:52pm PT
|
No John I don't doubt that you called up Jim and said "Hey these guys put bolts in you're route!" In response I'm sure he probably did say that. Except we didn't and thats been proven. So you're attempt at making others angry at us has just spread your misinformation around.
I don't believe that it was poorly installed. That is true. However, if it was than its important that we talk about it. I'm not hiding away from this. I'm acknowledging that people make mistakes and if I did so than its important to know right away. I have gone back to many routes that I've replaced and climbed on the anchors plenty of times. Most were still tightened down but some had loosened and I tightened them back into place. Its a bolt, not some kind of infallible hardware. I haven't had any bolts that I have retightened loosen back up again. The ASCA sends Powers SS bolts. I believe that these require a somewhat low 10-12lbs of torque to tighten the bolt.
Also, you're going to accuse me of calling someone a liar? Thats been you're basis for this thread. Nearly everyone who has spoken against you has been called a liar. You've almost entirely rejected Rogers comments to this matter. Its over, you've been proved wrong. You really should move on.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:05pm PT
|
Let's see... Guy goes and chops some poorly installed ASCA retro junk... Kelsey bitches to him about chopping his poorly retro installed ASCA supplied bolt... Awesome
He ASCA bolts for replacement and his own for his retro jobs...
make up your mind JohnKelley… which is it? both statements are made by you and they conflict..
man this is a confusing dialog.
Did someone shoot the dudes dog or something?
And to think. winter has just started up there. One would think it was now the middle of February.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:07pm PT
|
Had this message forum a long time ago. I kicked him off it for being a jerk because he just couldn't really leave anyone alone. Its sort of continued ever since then.
Yeah, I hope everyone gets some Vitamin D supplements or its going to be a long winter!
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:12pm PT
|
Prezwood, If I were you I would just stop responding to him.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:15pm PT
|
I think you're right John M and I also think maybe we've finally reached the point in this thread where that works.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:20pm PT
|
Imagine if this dude lived in California.
His autistic ramblings would never end.
Has any 'call out' thread backfired as much as this? From unknown local hardman to consensus wanker in a handful of days. Fascinating.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 11:20pm PT
|
Sorry John M didn't mean to be confusing...
Some guy, I don't know him, comes across some poorly placed ASCA bolts that Kelsey placed so he chops them. Kelsey decides to bitch at the guy for chopping his f*#k up. Then decides to call the guy a liar and claims it never happened.
Kelsey uses ASCA bolts for replacements and his own hardware for his retro jobs.
Is that clearer?
Kelsey your forum took a nose dive and flopped after you booted me.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:39pm PT
|
Its not really clearer because you keep complaining about the ASCA giving a retrobolter bolts. But the two don't go together because even you admit he isn't using the ASCA bolts for retrobolting.
Your argument might make more sense if you stuck to whether he was retrobolting or not.
This back and forth he said, she said.. he is a liar, no he is.. is just bullsh#t. It doesn't prove anything. The easiest thing in the world to do is misconstrue someones words. And countries go to war over that kind of nonsense. Thats a sad sad word, because from my seat in this, Prezwood seems like a decent and likable guy. And you seem like you have had some rad adventures. But damn dude.. this calling everyone a liar just makes you look nuts. I doubt pretty seriously that Prezwood is lying about anything. He seems like too standup of a guy. If anything he is too honest, which ends up making mountains out of molehills.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
If you guys keep advertising the climbing on the Seward Highway you'll find parking difficult to find. The joys of climbing chossy rock in chilly rain whilst Beluga Whales frolic in the sea below will no longer be yours alone.
Given the tenor of this thread....you'll probably tell newcomers that there is great clamming in the mudflats when the tide is out. Then you can enjoy watching them trying to unstick their boots as the bore tide comes rushing in.
Classic
Here's a tip... Since you want me to be helpful.
Use your fingers...and toes
If you pull your pants down you'll have 19
Born teacher
|
|
Bent knee
Ice climber
VT
|
|
IMO this was a crap job. IMO a crap job is dangerous, even more so at an area where a person who feels the need to TR is probably not experienced enough to see it as a crap job. IMO an anchor replacement is one place where there should be no mistakes. IMO this was a crap job that was not needed.
As I stated previously, at least one stud was loose and wobbly. So in closing, while you may believe that I made the TR unsafe by removing the anchor, I believe I made it safer by removing a crap job.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
Bent knee I'm trying to ascertain what you think was wrong with the anchor besides where it was. You said loose and wobbly. Yes if it was loose it would be wobbly. Was there anything else wrong with the anchor? I'm asking because I really want to know why you think it was a bad job. When I get back to AK I'll go back and check it out.
|
|
franky
Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
|
|
it seems like the community minded climber would tighten a loose nut rather than take the hanger. Although, it might be best to just leave it alone if you aren't familiar with the torque specs for the bolt in question.
|
|
overwatch
climber
|
|
Burch for the wake and bake.
Did anyone actually read that Klein Manifesto?
|
|
franky
Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
|
|
I did it right after i pulled my toenails out with a pliers.
|
|
overwatch
climber
|
|
Good idea, use a greater pain to negate the effect of great pain.
I just stopped reading after he proclaimed he would make no more responses...why bother?
|
|
Chossboss
Trad climber
The GNAR
|
|
Did anyone actually read that Klein Manifesto?
I did, while finishing my drinks from the John Kelley Drinking Game.
|
|
Bent knee
Ice climber
VT
|
|
Not sure what you did with your drill. Maybe you over widened, speed wobbles, not a solid hand, maybe you didn't clean it enough and rain settled the dust and the bolt became looser, maybe you put the sleeve together incorrectly, maybe it was a bunk stud, perhaps you need to buy a torque wrench and learn what 12 pounds of pressure feels like, maybe you didn't flatten out around the hanger, maybe you just didn't pay attention to what you were doing. Either way an anchor was incorrectly placed and for this reason on that specific day I became enraged enough to pull the hangers.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
I still don't really know what else was wrong with it. So the only problem it had was being loose? You had only been here for a year or two and were already enraged about replacements in an area you were so new to?
When I get back I'm going to take a new bolt up there and see how it looks. The stud should still be in the hole so it'll go right in. If I did in fact mess up the anchor in anyway I'll get back to you. I think you're biggest frustration is tha you didn't think it was needed. But it was a replacement and not a retro job so it wasn't really up to you.
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
I like to place a few shitty bolts here and there..
You know, keep em on their toes as it were :)
If your name is on it, it better be good, or you are gonna get flamed.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
ROFLMAFAO
You guys are crying about crappy bolts on literally THE WORST F*#KING ROCK ON THE F*#KING PLANET>>>>
I KNOW! I grew up on that rock...learned how to climb on it..spent more time on it than maybe you guys have. Did 10 laps on Sunshine Butress one morning just for the hell of it. Did A4+ sh#t on it..accidentally free-soloed 5.10 on it..love and hate the hell out of that complete CRAP. Took a gnarly leadfall onto a beak placed by Garvey while he yelled encouragement on some pathetic rediculous crappy 5.11+ FA.
Blow it all up with dynamite for f*#ks sake...hell that is how most of those routes even exist...
R.I.P. Monkey Paws..a rock that the railroad blew to hell because folks were climbing on it next to the railroad..a place Donini climbed with one of my best buds.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
If someone magically transported the worst cliff in all Yosemite to the Seward highway it would instantly become 10 time better than the best rock you guys have. it would be gridbolted with routes totally unimagineable by Yosemite locals.. and touted as the greatest sport climbs in all of Alaska!
Keep up the good work Kelsey! You may be saving lives..unless of course someone falls and brings the whole damn cliff down anyway... which is not all that unlikely.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
So mean^^^
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
ROFLMAFAO
You guys are crying about crappy bolts on literally THE WORST F*#KING ROCK ON THE F*#KING PLANET>>>>
I KNOW! I grew up on that rock...learned how to climb on it..spent more time on it than maybe you guys have. Did 10 laps on Sunshine Butress one morning just for the hell of it. Did A4+ sh#t on it..accidentally free-soloed 5.10 on it..love and hate the hell out of that complete CRAP. Took a gnarly leadfall onto a beak placed by Garvey while he yelled encouragement on some pathetic rediculous crappy 5.11+ FA.
Blow it all up with dynamite for f*#ks sake...hell that is how most of those routes even exist...
R.I.P. Monkey Paws..a rock that the railroad blew to hell because folks were climbing on it next to the railroad..a place Donini climbed with one of my best buds.
Edit
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Oct 1, 2015 - 04:42pm PT
Well at least lurchingturd stopped not-caring so much for this thread. Her angst was killing me!
DMT
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Oct 1, 2015 - 04:51pm PT
If someone magically transported the worst cliff in all Yosemite to the Seward highway it would instantly become 10 time better than the best rock you guys have. it would be gridbolted with routes totally unimagineable by Yosemite locals.. and touted as the greatest sport climbs in all of Alaska!
Keep up the good work Kelsey! You may be saving lives..unless of course someone falls and brings the whole damn cliff down anyway... which is not all that unlikely.
Edit
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Oct 1, 2015 - 04:52pm PT
So mean^^^
Yeah... but True!
|
|
Bent knee
Ice climber
VT
|
|
Kelsey please take a look and see what you can find.
SunShine Ridge, some of my happiest and most terrifying moments, the scenery on that chunk of rock is just spectacular. I think the most back to back solo runs up I did was 8 in an evening. Climbed it at least once every month of the year for 2 years.
Once had a shotgun leveled at me by a twitchy family thinking I was a bear as I ran down the upper gully. Unknowingly flushed a bear off the point that splits the gully in two into a crowd that was gathered to take photos of it. Going for laps one spring I was on my second top out and thought I saw something brown but brushed it off, on the third lap I found bear prints going down in my tracks, be lined it to Morningstar gully only to find a black bear just below where you would turn off for yellow fever.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
^^ awesome!
SO many great memories..so much shitty rock.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
climbski2 - I know what you mean. Everytime I think about how all this could be about a couple of climbs on the seward highway it makes me cringe a bit. But it sounds like I'm in the same boat as you. Its a huge pile of choss and I love it.
I wonder if I'm not giving you a run for your money on the amount of time on the highway though! ....suddenly, I think this may not be a good thing! heh.
Also wasn't it Gorilla Rock that was blown up? We knocked down the Monkeys Foot climb on Twinkle Toes. (see clinker, he kind of wasn't kidding) https://vimeo.com/43881692
I'd love to hear some more about your A4+ and Garvey route! I've done some aid routes on the highway, I'd say probably C2 or C3 at best. on one route I was on an overhanging thin crack with two opposing micro stoppers. Somehow it worked. I wasn't on lead though, I just toproped it from a tree which actually kind of made it more scary since the swing was huge and the fall would only have been about 6 ft.
Oh man this thread definitely needs more Seward Highway love...
But lets be honest. We don't do it for the rock...we do it for the views.
Bent Knee - I'll definitely check it out when I get back. The picture you posted didn't show up, what was it for?
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
Yeah Gorilla rock!...that was the one... at least I remembered it had something to do with Apes.
Some climbs out there have collapsed and gone to dust.. but that one is the only climb I've done that actually got blown up..lol.
Seriously... Donini climbed it too.
Lets see A4...did 2 pitch thin ass solo aid ..hooks, a drilled bathook, beaks..tied blades..spent probably 3 hours on the first 50 feet...on that pullout right before McHugh creek. Just to the right of the nice 5.7 ish multipich crack..oh wait that thing fell off too.
The Garvey one was when he was developing a bunch of routes above the old Iditarod trail above the highway. the place where there was/is? an old cable handrail on the trail.. past sunshine buttress I think.
Ha Garvey..that guy had so much psyche he could push you far beyond what you had any idea you could do..yeah you got it man!.. I can still hear it..
Pics..from some old winter aid from around that deceased 5.7 crack...Cheater stick tryout...
Ballistic wall FA effort..in Eagle river. (its in that little book of FA's at AMH that you borrowed for a bit Kelsey) Why was it called ballistic wall?.. because of all the projectiles that were falling and trying to kill us.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
Ah....nightfall has descended on the frontier metropolis of Anchorage and all is silent. The bore tide is rolling, unseen, up Turnagin Arm and the Seward Highway choss is getting a respite from the unsightly stains left from sticky rubber and chalk.
Have no fear...a new day is dawning and the slashing sabers of name calling and invective will once again leave their ugly scars.
Gentleman....on your marks!
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
Ballistic wall
Rhymes with killer whale. Nice.
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
I have climbed on worse rock.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
Those are some cool shots for sure! I hadn't seen them before. Would love to see more.
I took pictures of that book and I can't remember where they went! I brought the book back I hope its still there.
I'm not sure which area you're talking about for the aid route. Good Vibes Wall aka I heart B wall? One of Garvey's routes, Ditchweed is there. Its probably the hardest of its grade that I've found.
The area you're probably talking about is Dino Head. Its above the highway and still has the cable railing. That areas actually become pretty good and is a good training area for some harder climbing.
donini, shhhhhh I'm hoping we've turned from the darkside. ;)
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
ROFLMAFAO
You guys are crying about crappy bolts on literally THE WORST F*#KING ROCK ON THE F*#KING PLANET>>>>
I KNOW! I grew up on that rock...learned how to climb on it..spent more time on it than maybe you guys have. Did 10 laps on Sunshine Butress one morning just for the hell of it. Did A4+ sh#t on it..accidentally free-soloed 5.10 on it..love and hate the hell out of that complete CRAP. Took a gnarly leadfall onto a beak placed by Garvey while he yelled encouragement on some pathetic rediculous crappy 5.11+ FA.
Blow it all up with dynamite for f*#ks sake...hell that is how most of those routes even exist...
Priceless.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
Hazy memory of climbing off the Seward Highway 15 or so years ago. Ran into a couple of friendly locals. What made it memorable wasn't just how chossy it was, but, that a raven was chuckin' stones in a steep gully in an effort to initiate a choss-a-lanche onto us. I guess it was hoping for any easy roadside kill picnic. Too funny.
Bolts work in that rock? Hmmm.
|
|
Larry Nelson
Social climber
|
|
Dino Head is the formation with the cables and super gritty rock.
We used to call the area up from the highway the 2nd tier.
I always hated belaying with 65mph traffic 10 feet behind me.
Edit: My first free solo's were on Sunshine Ridge.
Note: My only free solo's could be called 4th class by some.
Gorilla rock was fun.
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2015 - 11:51am PT
|
Anyone been to the base of Lemming Ranch lately?
|
|
Larry Nelson
Social climber
|
|
Donini highjacked the thread to the highway, hee hee.
Reed Lakes, Arch Angel etc, are truly beautiful settings to climb in, but the stories of the highway are funnier.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
I was trying to decide if this was a worthy point to point out that being 5'2"and having a schmecle to boot got my attention.
Then I realized that y'alls talking' 'bout the asz-wipe that thinks jByere is any kind of hero.
The things that one can learn if one takes notes.
Placing bolts by hand in this generation of battery power drills is a bit anachronistic.
That big word, a word I had to look up to be sure I was using it correctly, says a lot about the pointlessness of this argument.
Now that is not in any way condoning bolting or reporting bolting activities. or that an opinion held by many is more valid than an opinion held by one. . .
i also miss the old taco, pre 2/12 when this was fun to lurk and no posting from the peanut gallery was so sorely needed to stop swelled heads from 'exploding, Carry on.
and +1 (as the kids all do) for a poem of sorts from one of the bold old climbers
thanks again The Big Jim!! (Donini)
|
|
L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
|
|
What's a schmecel?
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
a miss- spelled (or not if it's soft?) term for the male member.
Lurkingtard
climber
Sep 30, 2015 - 04:09pm PT
I'm guessing this dude is like 5'2".
With a schmecle to boot.
later on in the thread someone quoted the short part but not the having a dick because the definition of one regarding retro or bolting or getting old and wanting recognition is already so dickish...
sad that at this point that that is the only question, but i played around with that bunch of words and it lends it self to something I was gonna Flame then beign lame I left off
To boot his schmecle you have to be five foot two, well then, as much as I liked that, this too made me laugh
He is 5'2" and his schmecle is so big it extends to his boot or can hide it in his boot, all so juvenile. hmmmm whats that, juvenilia??
|
|
johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 6, 2016 - 09:54am PT
|
It's been great chopping weather lately...
|
|
| Messages 1 - 147 of total 147 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!