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max kruzic
Big Wall climber
sebastopol, ca
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Sep 29, 2015 - 10:36pm PT
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I have never commented to a forum post but feel compelled to weigh in on this one.
As I assume is the case for the majority of the Supertopo community, I visit this site and forum discussion because I love climbing. The people I have met pursing this way of life are some of the finest I have encountered. However, the only times that I can say I have been embarrassed to be associated with a group of climbers has been a result of reading some of the comments written on this site, especially with respect to death. For the large part I get inspired, gain knowledge and fuel my future adventures from the stories of this online community.
Last year our local climbing community lost a truly wonderful person to the mountains. The way our tribe pulled together to celebrate his life and create something positive was more inspiring than I can put to words.
I don’t believe this discussion needs to enter the realm of freedom of speech debates or a discussion of the uniqueness of the internet. I think the general message is pretty clear: during a time of loss, it is inappropriate to say something on the internet that wouldn’t be said if you were using your real name. It takes a lot of integrity to go into the mountains with a partner, push through all kinds of hardship, and come out respecting yourself for the way you showed up. The next time there is a tragedy in our community that is discussed in these forums, I hope the comments will mirror the same integrity we bring to the mountains with condolences rather than inflammatory bickering. I think that is a much better way to honor a life than a debate over taxpayer money being spent on base jumper body recovery.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Sep 29, 2015 - 11:03pm PT
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^^^^^^^ So, what was the cause of her, demise?
In this case, however, there weren't any very obvious errors.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 29, 2015 - 11:04pm PT
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It's best to stay off Facebook, at least.
I also agree that if you are part of a tragic event you need to grieve the way you feel best - sometimes that is sharing your experience. It is best to wait a bit for the info to get out first.
Posting on a person's public wall, rather than a private message/email/text, is the only way to not only deliver someone a message but have EVERYONE in on your conversation. Think about why you want that attention.
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CCT
Trad climber
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Sep 29, 2015 - 11:51pm PT
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For me, it's important to understand and learn from the incident.
It's a harsh truth, but human error often plays a significant role in fatal accidents in our sport. Complacency, getting in over our head, cutting the margin too thin - all of those things are so common in the mountains. Usually it works out ok, but sometimes it doesn't.
Understanding what went wrong can help us to avoid whatever pattern of decision-making led to the accident. And the only way to really understand what happened is to talk about it.
If the incident truly involved no human error beyond participating in an inherently dangerous sport, then that should be talked about too. The mountains are implacable and it is good to be reminded of that.
Memorial threads should be treated respectfully, period. Deeper discussion can happen elsewhere, without a name attached, or after the friends/family have had a few days to come to terms with the initial grief.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 30, 2015 - 06:13am PT
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Online etiquette......someone please cite an example of it being used anytime, anywhere.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 30, 2015 - 06:19am PT
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Particularly because in this forum you all LOVE to post about BASE/skydiving injuries and fatalities.
MAYBE next time you will think about what your type about someone's loved one.
Sorry but there are too many other "someone's loved one" to simply offer condolences. BASE has become like a stupid war. Be quiet about the idiocy of BASE pushing these kind of limits? Triple the speed limit on your next drive and see how it works out.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 30, 2015 - 06:21am PT
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.... and here we go....
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Sep 30, 2015 - 06:24am PT
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^^^ that's been my observation DMT.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Sep 30, 2015 - 07:31am PT
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She died of exposure. She was doing a route and got hit by a full winter storm. I recall she also possibly fell down a steep slope at some point, too.
So it in fact was not an "Accident" and could have been effectively prevented had she.... utilized her supposed deep experience wisely.
The reality that she died is downright a very sad event. But the (possible) reason why is most assuredly even more of an avoidable "Tragedy".
I know Mt. Washington and that entire region very well. If the forecast indicates a full on Noreastern "Winter Storm" is on the horizon, which in the Northeast forecasts have a pretty good heads up time frame, I, one of the craziest and determined of all when it came to climbing, would not even think about heading out into it. No fkin way.
Werner's post is one of long experienced based emotion. He doesn't show that too often and rightly so.
I too have personally done and witnessed the same as he in regards to this specific issue. I deal with it daily... trust me.
Clinker makes a valid point that is NOT shared often if even at all. Regardless the extreme sport discipline, from my deep experience of flying non-combat SAR throughout the world, I can safely state as a fact that most if not ALL of the over 350 rescue/body retrieval incidents that I personally took part in were NOT uncontrolled "Accidents" and could have been prevented.
As a Guide I also saw my share of .... outright ignorance and complacency.
The CHOICES we ALL make prior to and then during doing the deed, are certainly the most important that will effect the outcome of the endeavor.
I believe that if more brutal truth is stated after the fact, then maybe, just maybe, someone will take heed and learn from the preventable tragedy and NOT do as the individual/s did that led to their, demise.
Forums such as this, ST, are a valuable tool to do that.
Brutal Honesty sucks. BUT, it may and can save lives in the future. Unfortunately, far too many these days can't handle it. But the fact is, it is was has kept this crazyass alive this long. Fact.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:06am PT
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Burch, we're not going to begrudge Jody an honest attempt at modesty, are we?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:06am PT
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and typically amount to little more than extremely bad luck.
Sorry, BUT there is no such this as "bad luck".
And carrying all the "electronics" in the world is no substitute for using good valuable down and dirty experiential human judgement/planning.
But in reality, garden-variety, backcountry deaths are statistically rare flukes,
From my experience the past 40 something years of dealing with them, that is the most callus but so very modern typical statement yet.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:16am PT
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I really recommend folks do some time volunteering for SAR. You will get trained in simple protocols for dealing with this specific issue. Plus you will be immersed in the pretty damn obvious need for them.
In the meantime use your heads. We all have reason to be critical at times..however very often you can do so without singling out a specific individual who's death is a terrible tragedy for those who loved them.
Which brings me to another thing
Causes of death discussions are for the most part a pretty boring exercise to me personally. The only time they become interesting is if I can gain insight into one perplexing question I have. How is it that even knowing exactly what to do to be safe we occasionally find ourselves in disregard of even the most basic ingrained fundamental safety practices. IE what is wrong with the human brain that it allows stupid mistakes we know better than.. to still happen sometimes.
General discussions about repelling, weather forcasts and such are good but singling out some unfortunate victim..not so good.
Let the noobs read ANAM if they want the basics covered.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:28am PT
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singling out some unfortunate victim..not so good.
I totally agree SKI and there is absolutely NO need to do so. Stick to the facts of specific incident and leave out names etc.
Let the noobs read ANAM if they want the basics covered.
Like today's generation is going to get a current or back copy and actually read, ANAM.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:39am PT
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Sorry, BUT there is no such this as "bad luck".
Winning the lotto is 'luck.' Getting stuck in a storm or having the myriad of things go wrong, go wrong, is just unfortunate - and can happen (a bit more than winning the lotto.)
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:44am PT
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Sorry, BUT there is no such this as "bad luck".
Sure there is.
But all to often it's the given excuse when someone uses bad judgement.
As far as online etiquette goes, it's here. Most people demonstrate respect when the subject matter involves tragedy, impacting fellow posters. Even most trolls recognize certain situations should be treated respectfully. Of course, there are always a few who lack any sense of decency.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:50am PT
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But all to often it's the given excuse when someone uses bad judgement.
My point exactly. "Excuse" being the key verb.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:59am PT
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It's really hard to understand how and why we (I mean other people) have evolved our (diversity of) human social psychological processes. That rascally Jesus guy must have had a sense of humor! Or I guess I mean my condolences.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 30, 2015 - 09:49am PT
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Well the man who shot Liberty Valance didn't write a dreary book, or any other, as far as we know. Interestingly, nobody knows for sure whether he even existed.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Sep 30, 2015 - 09:51am PT
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Control of objective hazards (which include random, unlikely events) is by definition impossible.
Impending and forecasted "Winter Storms" are not "objective hazards (which include random, unlikely events)" with the technology that we have had the past decade or so.
As are not most weather events.
Anyone who has pushed things a bit at times, and is honest, knows that luck plays a key role.
I must have missed that somewhere the past 44 or so years.
But then again, I bailed more times than I succeeded only to return and win in far better conditions, environmentally, materially, psychologically, physically and emotionally.
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