Online Etiquette when is comes to fatalities/accidents

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Heisenberg

Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 29, 2015 - 05:13pm PT
Something this forum should read. Particularly because in this forum you all LOVE to post about BASE/skydiving injuries and fatalities.

MAYBE next time you will think about what your type about someone's loved one.

http://womanwidowfriend.com/2015/08/13/surviving-death-online/

rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Sep 29, 2015 - 05:27pm PT
"Online etiquette" is an oxymoron.

That said, I've seen quite a few accident threads in which a person close to the victim has eventually logged on an contributed themselves, indicating that not everyone is traumatized by circulated information. To this I might add that it can be a tremendous burden for a grieving person to notify everyone who ought to know, and some of that burden can be alleviated by sites like this one.

As for social media, that is another story and I'm not familiar enough with it to have any kind of opinion.

Behaving sensitively and decently in posting reactions to tragedies ought not to be hard in principle, but we have plenty of evidence that such an expectation cannot be taken for granted. Unfortunately, the folks most in need of this message are likely to be the least receptive.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Sep 29, 2015 - 06:48pm PT
Not really a very good article. The article applies to people directly associated with the victim and family, and can be summed up by saying "use common sense when using social media". I think news of fatalities are handled pretty well here on ST. Sure, people armchair quarterback way ahead of any official news, and that could be construed as disrespect to the deceased.
couchmaster

climber
Sep 29, 2015 - 07:10pm PT



GREAT writing. End point, we SUCK. SUCK BIG. EVERY DAMNED ONE OF US. YOU, ME. most of us anyway. So much pain has already accrued to the family....crap, don't add more. Just Shut the F up is their point, and it's a good one. Call a relative and if you don't get through leave a supportive message and otherwise STFU and keep speculation and random thoughts about it to oneself and off the internet.

Thanks for the read. COMPUTERS can be such bullshit at times.
c wilmot

climber
Sep 29, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
I think death is something culturally defined. What some might see as offensive could to others be perfectly normal. I personally dont care if my corpse is used to film a "weekend at bernies" as I wont be around to complain. Other people wont even donate their organs. Got me
I can see why many would find comments online offensive but if you go looking for that sort of thing, can you really be upset about finding it?
Negative comments are the norm online.
At least most of the comments about accidents on here are informed and meant to prevent further tragedy by introspecting on what went wrong

zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 29, 2015 - 07:26pm PT
I met a guy once who reported being told this:

There is no need for us to say anything about others. There is no need for you or for me to regard other's actions in our thoughts one way or another. The worst thing we can do is to force people to agree with us. I mean that we shouldn't try to impose our will when people don't behave the way we want them to. The worst thing one can do is to confront human beings bluntly. A warrior proceeds strategically. If one wants to stop our fellow men one must always be outside the circle that presses them. That way one can always direct the pressure.

also,

To help you lose self-importance talk to little plants. It doesn't matter what you say to a plant, what's important is the feeling of liking it, and treating it as an equal.
c wilmot

climber
Sep 29, 2015 - 07:27pm PT
I meant that your reaction to death often has to do with the way you have been subconsciously conditioned to react. Some cultures mourn death, some celebrate the life lived. Heck some cultures even consumed their dead as a part of the process
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 29, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
This too:

Look at me, I have no doubts or remorse. Everything I do is my decision and my responsibility. The simplest thing I do, to take you for a walk in the desert for instance, may very well mean my death. Death is stalking me. Therefore, I have no room for doubts or remorse. If I have to die as a result of taking you for a walk, then I must die.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 29, 2015 - 07:41pm PT
I think Cervantes covered this quite adequately 400 years ago.
Juan Maderita

Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
Sep 29, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
Reilly,
If you're referring to zBrown's quotes, more like Castaneda 40 years ago.
Dude was hittin' the peyote.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 29, 2015 - 07:57pm PT
Uh, Juan, I was thinking more along the lines of tilting at windmills, como no?
Juan Maderita

Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
Sep 29, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
Reilly,
Okay. The Carlos Castenada quotes were interesting. It's been a few decades since I've read Teachings of Don Juan, et al.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 29, 2015 - 08:04pm PT
Well I never met a windmill I didn't like, though never did I meet Cervantes.

However, I did meet Carlos, but he is actually quoting Don Juan, who may or may not have existed.

Good advice, but it's your five centavos.

Orale.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Sep 29, 2015 - 08:12pm PT
God I hate that word.. "Accident".


No such thing.


Things JUST DON'T HAPPEN. Somewhere along the chain of events in MOST extreme sports major injury/fatality incidents, there was some human decision/action/error involved.

Thus it was NOT an "Accident". It was an Incident.

The ONLY way that the rest of that disciplines community can learn from the Incident and prevent it from possibly occurring again, is to debrief the facts of the event as soon as possible, review them without any emotions and find what went wrong etc. Then disseminate the final analysis asap while all the facts are fresh in every ones minds.

Unfortunately, I learned this very beneficial protocol during my 24 or so years in the Navy and being very well versed in and part of Incident Review Debriefs and Boards for well over 36 fatal incidents. 21 of which I was directly involved with in one way or another.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 29, 2015 - 09:08pm PT
Opinions are like anuses.

Oh, and lest that statement slip into a self-referential morass, that statement was NOT, repeat NOT a mere opinion.

People generally should wipe and wash more often, particularly prior to posting, particularly when posting about somebody else's misfortune the whole story of which will almost never be known.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 29, 2015 - 09:14pm PT
It happens. LOL... sue me.
WBraun

climber
Sep 29, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
I've witnessed a lot of death over the years ... a lot.

Lots deceased of bodies passed thru here.

And with those are the grieving family members.

Best not to say anything or just give condolences.

Why upset people we don't even know over this ......

ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Sep 29, 2015 - 09:46pm PT
Online Etiquette
... is a non sequitur.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 29, 2015 - 10:00pm PT
There is no need for us to say anything about others. There is no need for you or for me to regard other's actions in our thoughts one way or another. The worst thing we can do is to force people to agree with us. I mean that we shouldn't try to impose our will when people don't behave the way we want them to. The worst thing one can do is to confront human beings bluntly. A warrior proceeds strategically. If one wants to stop our fellow men one must always be outside the circle that presses them. That way one can always direct the pressure.

It is hard to imagine any advice that is as wrong as this.

Ventilating is very important in dealing with loss. The above advice, which used to be rampant in military circles (and probably still is) is the perfect setup not to deal with PTSD. It is the path that leads to so many suicides, because people internalize, instead of talking it out, getting help.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Sep 29, 2015 - 10:19pm PT
So the guy who shot Osama should have followed protocol and not written a dreary book ?

Apples OR Oranges....Jim?

"Death... It Happens"


If the community sticks to the facts of the actual event, leaves out the personalizing and emotion/s, analyzes what was the actual cause, come up with a beneficial solution so that the event/behavior can be prevented in the future and done so asap, then the incident has not gone in vein.

EDIT:

The cause just may be a major flaw/deficiency in the material/equipment that needs immediate attention/action so as not to have it occur again in the very near future.

The damn Turkey below killed my Bos'n who was standing seven or so feet directly in front of me. The same projectile that terminated him, went into my right gut and tore a hole in me taking out my Gall Bladder and 2mm portion of my Liver. I spent ten days in ICU.

ALL F-14's were immediately grounded, and a failing critical attaching 6" X 9/16" bolt was found to be the culprit. All F-14's had to have this bolt replaced throughout the NAVIAR system before they were released for flight. That was accomplished in 5 days after the incident. The fact of what the consequences were of that failing bolt, my Bos'n and I, were pretty much a moot issue.

max kruzic

Big Wall climber
sebastopol, ca
Sep 29, 2015 - 10:36pm PT
I have never commented to a forum post but feel compelled to weigh in on this one.

As I assume is the case for the majority of the Supertopo community, I visit this site and forum discussion because I love climbing. The people I have met pursing this way of life are some of the finest I have encountered. However, the only times that I can say I have been embarrassed to be associated with a group of climbers has been a result of reading some of the comments written on this site, especially with respect to death. For the large part I get inspired, gain knowledge and fuel my future adventures from the stories of this online community.

Last year our local climbing community lost a truly wonderful person to the mountains. The way our tribe pulled together to celebrate his life and create something positive was more inspiring than I can put to words.

I don’t believe this discussion needs to enter the realm of freedom of speech debates or a discussion of the uniqueness of the internet. I think the general message is pretty clear: during a time of loss, it is inappropriate to say something on the internet that wouldn’t be said if you were using your real name. It takes a lot of integrity to go into the mountains with a partner, push through all kinds of hardship, and come out respecting yourself for the way you showed up. The next time there is a tragedy in our community that is discussed in these forums, I hope the comments will mirror the same integrity we bring to the mountains with condolences rather than inflammatory bickering. I think that is a much better way to honor a life than a debate over taxpayer money being spent on base jumper body recovery.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Sep 29, 2015 - 11:03pm PT
^^^^^^^ So, what was the cause of her, demise?


In this case, however, there weren't any very obvious errors.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 29, 2015 - 11:04pm PT
It's best to stay off Facebook, at least.

I also agree that if you are part of a tragic event you need to grieve the way you feel best - sometimes that is sharing your experience. It is best to wait a bit for the info to get out first.

Posting on a person's public wall, rather than a private message/email/text, is the only way to not only deliver someone a message but have EVERYONE in on your conversation. Think about why you want that attention.
CCT

Trad climber
Sep 29, 2015 - 11:51pm PT
For me, it's important to understand and learn from the incident.

It's a harsh truth, but human error often plays a significant role in fatal accidents in our sport. Complacency, getting in over our head, cutting the margin too thin - all of those things are so common in the mountains. Usually it works out ok, but sometimes it doesn't.

Understanding what went wrong can help us to avoid whatever pattern of decision-making led to the accident. And the only way to really understand what happened is to talk about it.

If the incident truly involved no human error beyond participating in an inherently dangerous sport, then that should be talked about too. The mountains are implacable and it is good to be reminded of that.

Memorial threads should be treated respectfully, period. Deeper discussion can happen elsewhere, without a name attached, or after the friends/family have had a few days to come to terms with the initial grief.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 30, 2015 - 06:13am PT
Online etiquette......someone please cite an example of it being used anytime, anywhere.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Sep 30, 2015 - 06:19am PT
Particularly because in this forum you all LOVE to post about BASE/skydiving injuries and fatalities.

MAYBE next time you will think about what your type about someone's loved one.

Sorry but there are too many other "someone's loved one" to simply offer condolences. BASE has become like a stupid war. Be quiet about the idiocy of BASE pushing these kind of limits? Triple the speed limit on your next drive and see how it works out.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 30, 2015 - 06:21am PT
.... and here we go....
Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Sep 30, 2015 - 06:24am PT
^^^ that's been my observation DMT.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Sep 30, 2015 - 07:31am PT
She died of exposure. She was doing a route and got hit by a full winter storm. I recall she also possibly fell down a steep slope at some point, too.

So it in fact was not an "Accident" and could have been effectively prevented had she.... utilized her supposed deep experience wisely.

The reality that she died is downright a very sad event. But the (possible) reason why is most assuredly even more of an avoidable "Tragedy".

I know Mt. Washington and that entire region very well. If the forecast indicates a full on Noreastern "Winter Storm" is on the horizon, which in the Northeast forecasts have a pretty good heads up time frame, I, one of the craziest and determined of all when it came to climbing, would not even think about heading out into it. No fkin way.



Werner's post is one of long experienced based emotion. He doesn't show that too often and rightly so.

I too have personally done and witnessed the same as he in regards to this specific issue. I deal with it daily... trust me.

Clinker makes a valid point that is NOT shared often if even at all. Regardless the extreme sport discipline, from my deep experience of flying non-combat SAR throughout the world, I can safely state as a fact that most if not ALL of the over 350 rescue/body retrieval incidents that I personally took part in were NOT uncontrolled "Accidents" and could have been prevented.

As a Guide I also saw my share of .... outright ignorance and complacency.

The CHOICES we ALL make prior to and then during doing the deed, are certainly the most important that will effect the outcome of the endeavor.

I believe that if more brutal truth is stated after the fact, then maybe, just maybe, someone will take heed and learn from the preventable tragedy and NOT do as the individual/s did that led to their, demise.

Forums such as this, ST, are a valuable tool to do that.

Brutal Honesty sucks. BUT, it may and can save lives in the future. Unfortunately, far too many these days can't handle it. But the fact is, it is was has kept this crazyass alive this long. Fact.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:06am PT
Burch, we're not going to begrudge Jody an honest attempt at modesty, are we?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:06am PT
and typically amount to little more than extremely bad luck.

Sorry, BUT there is no such this as "bad luck".

And carrying all the "electronics" in the world is no substitute for using good valuable down and dirty experiential human judgement/planning.

But in reality, garden-variety, backcountry deaths are statistically rare flukes,

From my experience the past 40 something years of dealing with them, that is the most callus but so very modern typical statement yet.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:16am PT
I really recommend folks do some time volunteering for SAR. You will get trained in simple protocols for dealing with this specific issue. Plus you will be immersed in the pretty damn obvious need for them.

In the meantime use your heads. We all have reason to be critical at times..however very often you can do so without singling out a specific individual who's death is a terrible tragedy for those who loved them.

Which brings me to another thing

Causes of death discussions are for the most part a pretty boring exercise to me personally. The only time they become interesting is if I can gain insight into one perplexing question I have. How is it that even knowing exactly what to do to be safe we occasionally find ourselves in disregard of even the most basic ingrained fundamental safety practices. IE what is wrong with the human brain that it allows stupid mistakes we know better than.. to still happen sometimes.

General discussions about repelling, weather forcasts and such are good but singling out some unfortunate victim..not so good.

Let the noobs read ANAM if they want the basics covered.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:28am PT
singling out some unfortunate victim..not so good.

I totally agree SKI and there is absolutely NO need to do so. Stick to the facts of specific incident and leave out names etc.

Let the noobs read ANAM if they want the basics covered.

Like today's generation is going to get a current or back copy and actually read, ANAM.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:39am PT
Sorry, BUT there is no such this as "bad luck".


Winning the lotto is 'luck.' Getting stuck in a storm or having the myriad of things go wrong, go wrong, is just unfortunate - and can happen (a bit more than winning the lotto.)
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:44am PT
Sorry, BUT there is no such this as "bad luck".

Sure there is.

But all to often it's the given excuse when someone uses bad judgement.

As far as online etiquette goes, it's here. Most people demonstrate respect when the subject matter involves tragedy, impacting fellow posters. Even most trolls recognize certain situations should be treated respectfully. Of course, there are always a few who lack any sense of decency.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:50am PT
But all to often it's the given excuse when someone uses bad judgement.

My point exactly. "Excuse" being the key verb.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Sep 30, 2015 - 08:59am PT
It's really hard to understand how and why we (I mean other people) have evolved our (diversity of) human social psychological processes. That rascally Jesus guy must have had a sense of humor! Or I guess I mean my condolences.
Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Sep 30, 2015 - 09:36am PT
http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199304700/Fall-on-RappelLost-Control-and-Descended-Too-Rapidly-California-Yosemite-Valley-El-Capitan





If the AAC report linked above is any indicator then maybe they are not as accurate as one would think.

Edit to add: that report is brimming with bull.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 30, 2015 - 09:49am PT
Well the man who shot Liberty Valance didn't write a dreary book, or any other, as far as we know. Interestingly, nobody knows for sure whether he even existed.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Sep 30, 2015 - 09:51am PT
Control of objective hazards (which include random, unlikely events) is by definition impossible.

Impending and forecasted "Winter Storms" are not "objective hazards (which include random, unlikely events)" with the technology that we have had the past decade or so.

As are not most weather events.

Anyone who has pushed things a bit at times, and is honest, knows that luck plays a key role.

I must have missed that somewhere the past 44 or so years.


But then again, I bailed more times than I succeeded only to return and win in far better conditions, environmentally, materially, psychologically, physically and emotionally.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:28am PT
RIP James Dean - September 30, 1955, Cholame, CA


canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Sep 30, 2015 - 11:56am PT
Friends and relatives whine about online discussions of deaths because they are unable to actually control death, and are venting their frustration. Sort of shoot the messenger. IMO they should stay off the internet, or HTFU.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 30, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
zBrown, I was THERE Saturday! OMG! Does this mean I'm gonna you-know-what?
I was only doin' 70 cause I go by there a lot and it is a notorious revenuers' spot.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Sep 30, 2015 - 07:53pm PT
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 1, 2015 - 04:30am PT
Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Oct 1, 2015 - 04:30am PT
http://adventure-journal.com/2014/10/essay-thoughts-on-honoring-the-dead-and-the-living/
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 1, 2015 - 06:00am PT
pretty good edit on that grainy video...
HF

climber
I'm a Norwegian stuck in Joshua Tree
Oct 1, 2015 - 11:06am PT
Friends and relatives whine about online discussions of deaths because they are unable to actually control death, and are venting their frustration. Sort of shoot the messenger. IMO they should stay off the internet, or HTFU.

No one is able to control the death of someone else, however each and every one of us are able to control when, who and what "information" we "help" spreading.

Perhaps you should read Werner's post and his words of wisdom. Thank you Werner.

Condolences to all who have lost someone close and special to them.

HF
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Oct 1, 2015 - 11:18am PT
Advice from a duck who picks up pieces in buckets? Nah. Thanks for playing though.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 1, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
What CCT said for me too.

Only offer condolences on threads about accidents. But understand many wont follow that simple courtesy.

Start another thread to discuss particulars, lessons, discussion of risk in general, etc.

we participate in a risky sport and the more we discuss and analyze accidents and risk the better IMO as long as its done in a respectful way.
AE

climber
Boulder, CO
Oct 27, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
When responding to accident related posts on ST, it's useful to keep in mind that many here may be close friends or family of the subject. This becomes a semi-public bulletin board for those not necessarily close or immediate, but within the community, who might have met or heard of the person, and so have a reasonable curiosity about the situation.
There is a spectrum of propriety, regarding statements expressing more than sympathy, and jumping to conclusions or judgments serves no one.
Later on, depending on how the OP is entered, there may be more appropriate threads in which to engage in conversations about causes, responsibilities, perhaps even speculation, if there are lessons for others from examining an incident. I read many of these sorts of posts the way I'd read Accidents in North American Mountaineering, that is from a more detached, analytical mindset. It takes time for facts to come together. These discussions may also not provide loved ones with information they need for healing.
That being said, those with high public profiles effectively open themselves to public judgment much more than average folks, even to higher standards of libel. Anonymous flaming is de riguer, we all know. If I've criticized some climber I personally dislike, I've tried to keep my criticism focused on some behavior, and not on the personality.
Of course, insulting an accident victim should earn a lifetime site ban for the poster.
As for the Chief, when did this thread become all about you? If a party passes you and then drops a rock onto your head, is that an accident or incident? If you mistakenly take the wrong descent gully and must commit to rapping off a single bad anchor, tell me, does it go from incident to accident before or when the anchor fails? Most here have been in irreversible situations, for whatever reasons, and choices aren't always presented to us. The illusion of control gets lots of "experts" in trouble.
splitclimber

climber
Sonoma County
Dec 27, 2015 - 08:45am PT
Bump for some respect around here
Bldrjac

Ice climber
Boulder
Dec 27, 2015 - 10:49am PT
Just my two cents, being the widow of a well-known climber. My experience regarding SuperTopo was exemplary.....I was SO happy to read what people wrote about Jack, and know that in many cases, I wasn't alone in my grief. No one posted up anything that wasn't positive (not always the case, I know). Same on Mountain Project. Through those forums, many people were able to access me, and send me love, or get my personal information so they could call, write,email, or visit. Also a memorial fund was set up and advertised on this site and FB, the generosity of which has allowed me to be able to stay on living in my/our house. My FB "friends" are MY FRIENDS, so I had no worries that anyone would put anything weird or hurtful up. In fact, in moments of despair I go back to those postings on both ST and FB, and am cheered by the love and memories shared.
I happened to be in Cuba when he died, and there were some complications in reaching me. I understand that the news got out on FB and maybe even ST before I was reached (nearly 30 hours later), but was quashed and taken off said sites until I was informed. Ironically, I was the proverbial "last one to know", but again, I felt nothing but love and support from those 2 sites. Additionally, his partner and a few others wrote articles about his accident (and it was also in the AAC "Accidents")....knowledge is power. I don't think we'll know the "reason" why he fell....but in the end, it's information knowing that even the safest, most experienced climbers can still make fatal mistakes. A reminder to never take this activity lightly, and to remember to make each moment count as if it were our last. I just wanted to say that in some cases, social media can be a very POSITIVE force, provided we all remember to be kind.
Pam Roberts
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Dec 28, 2015 - 04:54am PT
hey there say, dear pam... oh my, i cry everytime i remember all this...

thank you for baring your heart and soul...
have a good eve, this night... you are loved by many...
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