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brett
climber
oregon
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Apr 12, 2015 - 05:26pm PT
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0% of me can lead 12c
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Apr 12, 2015 - 05:37pm PT
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I'll throw another stick on the fire.
How about the idea that climbing any grade at one certain area doesn't really fill the bill, so to speak. Years ago one of my mentors told me that to think of yourself as 'solid in the grade' meant you could go anywhere, on any type of stone and climb that grade.
and I like what bvb said.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 12, 2015 - 05:44pm PT
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Almost any climber in decent shape can locate a climb beyond their limit, work the hell out of it, then bag it ground up clean, eventually...
Yeah, I love watching folks sport climb on gear...
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Apr 12, 2015 - 05:48pm PT
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And I agree with you, Locker. I've put up sport routes that were at the very least top-roped before they were lead. Totally different game. (now I've done it...)
"projecting" or "working" a route just isn't the same as ground-up, onsight. (now I've really done it...)
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 12, 2015 - 05:49pm PT
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I think Brian called this pitch "solid 5.12" whatever that means.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 12, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
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I flashed The Flying Dutchman at Josh. Am I in the special peacock-strutting club now? Can somebody show me the secret handshake?
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richross
Trad climber
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Apr 12, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
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Jim D sends Super Crack 5.12+ early 90's.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Apr 12, 2015 - 06:34pm PT
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I'm pretty sure "solid 5.12" for Brian checks in at 5.13b/c
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
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My thought is the more interesting question is how many can onsight 12c trad.
Or, who can onsite 5.anything trad? I see some routes at Josh and other places being downgraded a letter grade or two from time to time. I know some of those routes and they're sandbagged if anything. I think it's because we used to only want the onsight. What's what we called "climbing." lol Now, there is sport climbing, bouldering, trad climbing, red pointing, pink pointing, onsighting, onsight flash with no beta, et al. Now people "work" a route and then "wire" a route... then downgrade it a letter grade. It ain't that new lower letter grade for a true onsight. Rant over. haha
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ruppell
climber
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Apr 12, 2015 - 06:51pm PT
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I've lead a few 12's on gear. Am I a 5.12 climber? Hell no. Did I get up them? Yes. Did I do it in what I consider good style? No. I fell. For me good style is onsight. Anything less is a failure in my book. Will I ever onsight that grade? Maybe. Bet your arse I'll keep trying. Most people that climb that grade on gear don't onsight it. But one day maybe I'll get lucky.
It goes back to what was said upthread. I'm a 5.10 climber. Why? Because I know I can go anywhere in the world and onsight that grade 99.9% of the time. Up it to hard 5.11 and my onsight drops to about 80%. When I can get that ratio to 99% I'll happily call myself a 5.11 climber.
So what percentage of climbers can trad lead 5.12? More than you think.
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Travis Haussener
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Apr 12, 2015 - 08:36pm PT
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I agree and disagree, the logic ifor what makes a good climber is great i.e. Yeah, being able to onsight any 10 in the world is a pretty place to sit as a trad climber, I aspire to that. However I think the nature of the sport is in the training, saying if it's not an onsight it doesn't count is like saying the only way to win a marathon, 5k, 10k, is to never run, look, or think about the course that's impratical in my opinion.
As far as the question, in my limited climbing career (4 years) and dozens of trips to Indian Creek, and 100's of days up little and big cottonwood canyon I've seen zero people ever get a real 12. As an example, there are several real ones right where the trail hits scarface butress and in all my days there, even extremely busy ones ( 20-30 people present) I've never seen anyone even think about these. The same goes for bcc and LCC.
So I think 1% is a pretty good guess, but after reading more comments maybe we're talking .1%.
Edit: as a loose loose comparison read the description behind this one http://mountainproject.com/v/father-time/109275454
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crøtch
climber
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Apr 12, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
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What are some classic .12c gear climbs in your area?
Of the thousands who climb at Squamish every year, how many send Flight of the Challenger?
For the similar hordes in Joshua Tree, what about Equinox? How often is that thing sent clean?
Here's a Mountainproject list of quality .12c climbs.
My guess would be closer to 1 in 10,000 than 1 in 1,000.
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ruppell
climber
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Apr 12, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
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Travis,
I never said not getting the OS didn't count. Failure to onsight counts because it is training. You learn from every climb you make mistakes on. Do you know how many 10's I had to fall on before I learned all the tricks not to? A lot. Trying as hard as you can and failing is better than never trying at all. I can't tell you how many people I've climbed with that wouldn't get out of their comfort zone. You know what? They still have the same comfort zone. They haven't gotten any better because they don't try harder climbs. So, try things way above your head and keep after it. Eventually 5.10 won't seem so bad.
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crøtch
climber
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Apr 12, 2015 - 11:20pm PT
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Under the assumption that Flight of the Challenger is the premier Squamish .12c single pitch crack...
Mountainproject Tick Count (route, grade, # of MP ticks)
Exasperator, 10c, 208
Crime of the Century, 11c, 110
Flight of the Challenger, 12c, 2
So Flight sees maybe 1% of the traffic that Exasperator does. And Exasperator is not a beginner's climb.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 13, 2015 - 08:37am PT
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^^^^ that's a helluva list of quality 5.12c trad climbs MP.com has a nice feature now where you can eliminate results with fewer than some number of votes. Once you do that to mid 12 and up trad routes, the list gets pretty small.
Scappy V-hard one move wonders and headpoints nobody will ever even attempt as an OS are a dime a dozen - and oh so awesome to that 1 dork who put in the hours and posted it to MP.com.
I would say the highest concentration of 12 and up trad routes are at the Creek, if you want to call what happens there "trad". They're pretty rare birds just about everywhere else - good ones at least.
Saying you lead 12+ trad onsight pretty much means you put down 13-13+ quickly on sport, this is what I've seen. If I don't quickly come to that in talking to someone who tells me they "lead 12c trad", I pretty much assume they're full of sh#t. "Projecting" 12c "trad" with every placement figured out and rehearsed - same as hanging draws on sport - dime a dozen.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 08:49am PT
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it would be an interesting thread: JLP's guide to the ratings...
JLP has stated for years now a number of observations regarding the veracity of the grades climbers claim based on a number of those observations. I'm sorta seriously interested in this... (and not trying to bust JLP's chops) as there seems to be a lot of thinking behind the statements like:
"...Saying you lead 12+ trad onsight pretty much means you put down 13-13+ quickly on sport, this is what I've seen. If I don't quickly come to that in talking to someone who tells me they "lead 12c trad", I pretty much assume they're full of sh#t..."
I added the emphasis. Tapping into the implied experience might be very interesting indeed.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:16am PT
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I would agree that it is damn few, way less than 1%. But there are some and most are not known people because they climb and don't post and don't show up in the mags. Just regular people who train really hard and climb all the time.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:18am PT
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That is, if you bother with 5.13 sportclimbs in the first place....
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:19am PT
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But there are some and most are not known people because they climb and don't post and don't show up in the mags.
Just regular people who train really hard and climb all the time.
Yep ... definitely.
There's quite a few of these around and is more like the norm ....
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:33am PT
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Well, I'd agree that there's a bunch of those unknowns around. But most of those are probably boulderers and sport climbers. I still think the % of solid .12c trad climbers is real small.
There's more of them in the Valley, or perhaps when you look at British gritstone climbers. Outside of those groups though...very few.
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