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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Apr 11, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
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I would guess a few less than could trad follow 12c
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thebravecowboy
climber
Lost Park
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Apr 11, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
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you mean like today?
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Flip Flop
climber
salad bowl, california
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Apr 11, 2015 - 10:43pm PT
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Much much much less than 1%. Much
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Matt's
climber
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Apr 11, 2015 - 10:46pm PT
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granite trad 12C? much less than 1%
indian creek style 12c-ish? a bit higher...
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Apr 12, 2015 - 12:30am PT
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Much much much less than 1%. Much this. and probably considerably less than 1% for sport 12c as well.
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 12:36am PT
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I think I read something once, that you're not a "climber" unless you lead 12a trad.
So I'd guess around 65%
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 01:04am PT
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C'mon folks, if we include gym climbers I'm thinking more like 1 in 1000 or 10,000.
Then again, maybe I just don't get out to the cool places to see all the rippers these days.
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 01:49am PT
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So then how many worldwide can onsight flash 12c trad including every 12c trad route given an R/X ?
Really...very few!!
Just off the top of my head I can think of a few bold 5.12 routes which have never seen an ascent without prior toproping. So what does that mean? Are there zero people in the world who can lead 5.12c trad?
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2015 - 03:41am PT
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Science could be a good strategy if up for the work. Or ask someone with a direct line to God if you crave more certainty.
That is why I asked Werner.... but Werner don't play this game. :)
In my original post I spelled out the criteria... number as percent of trad climbers. And trad climbers means lets say anyone who has trad led at least 20 pitches in their life at whatever grade.
On second thought I too think 1 percent is too high. In any case I call this group a small elite. Now back to the moonlight discussion. :)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 12, 2015 - 06:09am PT
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It's a low percent, is the exact number that important? The tone or phrasing or something of the OP's question almost sounds skeptical of the whole concept. But rest assured they are out there.
There are a lot of people leading 12c trad. Percentage wise it's probably under 1%. But there are Lots of climbers!
Consiststantly onsighting 12c trad? The number goes down. Workered a 12c to the point of red point? People do that all the time. Being able to do .12c trad with some small number of attempts, when in form? A smaller number but growing all the time.
I think this is impossible to quantify, even estimating a number is a staggering concept, but there are people out there doing this, most of whom the world at large will never hear of.
Pee wee and Mason are two of the best, most consistent hard tradclimbers. I've had the privilege of belaying them both, and to watch them climb at the level they do is truly mind blowing.
And there is another rapidly growing tier nipping at their heels.
There are a number of people advancing the standards, but again, are the numbers that important? Or significant?
Our own Jogill was in his own world, way above the curve, except for some other possible outliers, for a long time. A lot of his problems took a very long time to be repeated. When what is exceptional gets repeated it is often perceived as a new norm. While some ( deservedly) pat themselves on the back over meeting the challenges of the past others are quietly covering in new ground in relative obscurity.
The example of the various outliers, both presses the highest standard higher, and motivates other climbers to climb harder. Just knowing that harder clims exist gives some ambitious climbers permission to succeed on what they might otherwise have thought of as impossible.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Apr 12, 2015 - 07:37am PT
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Wow, the bubble effect is real. I'd have guessed 10-15%. That said if we're talking everyone who's ever purchased a harness, less than 1% is probably right. At the crags I prefer on a given weekend I don't think 1 in 10 is unreasonable. Guess it goes to Jaybros point, less than 1% is still a lot of people these days.
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Shimanilami
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 08:11am PT
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If you include gym climbers and boulderers, who make up the majority of climbers nowadays, then it's more like 0.01%.
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Apr 12, 2015 - 08:23am PT
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With no replaced gear at all: Off the top of my head I'd guess 1/10 of 1%. ( one in one thousand)
On sighting at that level, perhaps 1/10th or less of those.
This is coming from a relatively trad-centric climbing area too.
My 2 cents, YMMV
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 12, 2015 - 08:32am PT
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Yeah, I'm in agreement that the number is very low, well under 1% if we're talking about everyone who climbs, and talking about a lead with no preplaced gear.
I'm not even sure 1% of all climbers could do 11c trad onsight. Maybe certain friendly climbs in IC.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 12, 2015 - 09:36am PT
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Let's roll the question back to, say, 1983. Far, far, far fewer climbers, much higher percentage of 5.12 stone crushers. Back then everybody lived in the dirt and climbed 365/24/7. And no gyms to skew the data points.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Apr 12, 2015 - 09:54am PT
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Lol. If you think 1% of climbers could "trad" lead 12c, you must not be around climbers much. :)
Trad lead, to me would mean ground up flash or onsight of the route, or an attempt. Would others agree? Working the route into submission is more of a redpointing on gear game, and is not much different than sport climbing. The only difference is figuring out where to plug in a cam, which is not too different from figuring out a clipping stance.
For sure less than 1% of trad climbers RP 12c on gear. Not sure how many can. If you want to figure out a semi accurate % first define your population. Do you include strictly those who climb trad or do you include all people who consider themselves climbers. I think flashing or on sighting 5.12 is pretty impressive and not many at all can consistently do it.
As far as the other thread...oh man, we are talking about climbing here. People can go aid that thing as much as they want and no one should tell them not to. Use your best judgement. Don't nail on the Nose though! :)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 11:27am PT
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interesting question part of what I explored in a thread on the limits of difficulty in climbing... which turns out to have been provocative and controversial...
the OP title is a question that begs another question: what is the status of the consensus on the 5.12c rating? obviously it depends on the route... and that depends on the type of route.
Take this list of 5.12c routes in Yosemite Valley:
666 bolted boulder problem
96º in the Shade
Chingo Cabrones bolted problem at Knobby Wall - 5.12b?
Croft Arete
Follywood 87' route at the base of The Folly
Hall of Mirrors most talked about, perhaps a legitimate Valley trad climb
Hang Dog Flyer right side of Royal Arches apron, just above 10.96, legitimate Valley trad
Highlander mostly bolted route at New Diversion Cliff
Lost and Found left side of Boulderfield Gorge
Mama
Meltdown now renamed, another Knobby Wall route
Owl Roof short, wide problem
The Principle
Psychological Warfare Cascade Falls, left, high up
Punchline mostly bolted on Arch Rock
Satanic Mechanic mostly bolted right of Outer Limits
The Shining mostly bolted on Royal Arches
Switchblade
Take Da Plunge on East face of Elephant Rock
Wicked Gravity mostly bolted on top of Elephant Rock
Zipperhead 50' route on The Cookie with bolted crux
how many people that you know have lead any of these in any style?
and what is the consensus rating?
many of these are bolted routes (most?) or bolted at the crux... where do you draw the line in terms of defining the route as a "trad" route?
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Apr 12, 2015 - 01:43pm PT
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Same as the percentage of:
1. All golfers versus capable of winning a PGA golf tournament;
2. All people who ever played quarterback versus good enough to start in the NFL;
3. All mountaineers versus number of people who in fact have summated an 8,000 meter peak (Everest excluded).
Yes, I think people who can trad lead insight routinely, any 12c, are nearly that good and that rare.
Likewise, the time period within which said person can maintain that level is as transient as ultra-stardom in any other sport.
What percent is that? 0.01 (one in ten thousand)
OK. Let the dissing begin.
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hellroaring
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Apr 12, 2015 - 02:41pm PT
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What if while gripped & struggling on something far below a 5.12c you find yourself thinking: "this is probably what 5..12c would feel like if I could climb 5.12". Does that count in a half-ass, cheaters kind of way?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 12, 2015 - 02:43pm PT
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Or go a grade down from that to something well-known. Crimson Cringe. That one is pretty straightforward as far as gear goes, so I'd bet relatively easier for a strong sport climber with good endurance.
But how often does that even get done?
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