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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 22, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
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Doing a FA means it's your ROUTE;...not your ROCK.....(Public lands belong to the people).
Climbers have agreed to respect the wishes of the first ascent party on their ROUTE...(not their ROCK).
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Feb 22, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
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Doing a FA means it's your ROUTE;...not your ROCK.....(Public lands belong to the people).
Climbers have agreed to respect the wishes of the first ascent party on their ROUTE...(not their ROCK).
Todd, that's such a good distinction to call out.
We often use the "no one owns the rock" which is pluralistic, but usually any qualms is about a route (individualistic).
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 22, 2015 - 04:18pm PT
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In 1988 I did a route up at Courtright. The climb follows a very thin seam for 80 feet. On the first day I drilled four bolts from hooks. It was a long way from the fourth bolt to the top, but it looked like it got easier. I’d come back tomorrow to do the red-point.
The next day Julie Lazar and I stood at the base of our route. “Let’s call it Seamstress.” Julie is clever with words. “Yeah, that’s perfect, thanks.” I re-assured myself that the run-out at the top was easier ground. Then finally the seam enters a right facing corner where it looked like it would take wired stoppers. It was time to relax and climb.
5.11d past the first bolt to gain the seam. Up the seam for a few moves and the second bolt. Up and across the seam to the left on steadily harder moves eventually lie-backing the seam for several desperate moves to a good enough clipping hold at the third bolt. Here the angle kicks back a bit and I was confident I had it in the can. I climbed up, clipped the fourth and kept going.
Pretty soon I was way out there. Before me were two impossible looking high step rock-on smears with no hands. Rock up on the right one. High step the left pushing myself over onto it by smearing my right hand on the face. As I reached up into the bottom of the corner there was a flat hold about an inch wide and less deep. Latch, step up on nothing, there’s the locker. “Jesus.”
A couple years later I went back with a few friends including Herb Laeger and Jan and Rachel McCollum to have a look and show off my handiwork. At first sight of the route Herb and Jan pronounced me a lunatic, and would have nothing to do with the climb. Herb even hinted a slight bit of disbelief. “Do I detect a gauntlet being thrown? I’ll show you.” I began shoeing up. “Okay, I believe you. I just don’t want to carry your carcass out of here. I think we should add a bolt or two.” I pouted around for a while, saw the light, took Herb’s Bosch, hiked up to the top and rapped down adding two bolts to the upper section. We all did it and decided it was .12bR with the extra bolts.
It’s worth a go if you’re up at Voyager Rock. And you can scramble out to the anchor at the top to TR too.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Feb 22, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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Do as you wish, use common sense and your best judgement. You don't own the rock, but you have the right to create the best possible, in your judgement, climb. My personal preference, is to leave what I bolted on lead as is and to bolt lines I top roped a bunch before sending safely. I think lines that are worked to perfection on TR and than bolted with artificial runouts are kind of meh...but to each their own. Challenge yourself and use your common sense. And don't listen to me, I am a noob at this.
That is a great story Ksolem.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 23, 2015 - 02:41am PT
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Yesterday we rebolted a 1962 vintage route replacing the original single lead bolt and anchor bolts, on a pinnacle that is under cut on all sides and has one route to the summit. The lead bolt went in the same hole preserving the exact A1 or 5.10 start to slung knobs.
We have added bolts on some of our FAs for the same reason that Ksolem did on Seamstress. Others are left scary, same as they went up.
Make sure to leave some of your bold FAs "as is" to quiet the naysayers.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 23, 2015 - 03:29am PT
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Ksolem,
That is the point to take home from this thread!
Some who succeeded, some how suffered the pain!
Things , motivations, change, some times
Sooner some times later some times not!
But as the users must learn what they can do
It is better if they don't catch the chop!
Thankyou for taking that look at things!
Good on you !
Seamstress ! (.12b/c R)
Best Dressed, to the top!
I am all for Keeping things stout! - Tradition.!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Feb 23, 2015 - 07:47am PT
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Make sure to leave some of your bold FAs "as is" to quiet the naysayers.
Exactly what climbing should be about. Got to prove how bad ass you are to the other guys. There are sooooo many out there that give a sh#t you know... :)
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Feb 23, 2015 - 08:33am PT
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I agree with Todd, no one owns the rock, but for that very reason, I feel, everyone should collectively share and respect the rock. Not do subsequent squeeze jobs that are only clipping distance away from other routes, and look as though they had been put in with a tommy-gun, instead of a Bosch. I know Todd puts up beautiful routes, though, and with much respect, too.
When I first was learning how to climb, one of my older than me mentors would always remark, after the end of the climbing day, how the Rock Gods had let us survive another one. I would always laugh at his Rock God remarks, they had become like repetition humor to me. He would say, "No sh!t, I really do believe in Rock Gods! That's no Joke". Well, all I can say is after you have been climbing long enough you really do start believing in Rock Gods. I'm even starting to believe in Rain Gods!
Kris, just like you had written about, we've had our own little adventure or two. But, I think our adventures weren't nearly so burly as yours. Some of them we had gotten back and added a bolt or two, some of them are on our, "to do list". I think in the end, climbers who put up routes owe a responsibility to the climbing community to put up routes that are reasonably safe. Some routes can seem down right criminal, and in the end, have been really only like a stupid statement. It doesn't leave a good climb for hardly anyone, and has only been a selfish thing to leave for the climbing community, and do to the rock.
Right now it is snowing outside. Thank you Snow Gods!
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Flydude
Trad climber
Prather, CA
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Feb 23, 2015 - 10:17pm PT
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Two shoes you got it right
Glad to hear it's snowing up there.
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2015 - 12:44am PT
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Did I mention the route in question in 10+ miles from the road and accessible only when the river is sufficiently frozen for travel, and then only by those in the know (20-30 peps). Does this change anything?
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Feb 24, 2015 - 05:01am PT
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Retro the run-outs and I'll kill Ya!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 24, 2015 - 05:24am PT
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Hey Myles ya beat me to it . . .
I was gonna call this Post
Run IT OUT
thatis the way it is and was and always should be
stout !!
Cheers Mate argh!
Dood ,
this is meant in all due respect!
I think that yer routes are the best.
see how Some greats still out there have left the Show It is
because the Kids today outa the Gymz have no respect for the way we did it, risking our necks
they wear cracky gloves, and power drill old routes from the top down or whatever
and retro fit every thing they can get a power drill near.
I
agree with you that stout Is the best
don't stop the flow,
Climb hard and harder, no stop, no rest too,
To climb it is a verb, an all action word
No stopping till you get to the existing anchors ',
Do what you want to A route that you put in yourself
But AS Myles says, old dudes when er' we were young
We did it the best, climbed way up to that gear, that nut is truckstop!
(when there were 'star' drivens' we cliped 'em)
(flowed past, didn't think of weighting any of that siht!)
so go at it there the way that you find it.
Don't add a thing or leave any thing
or suffer the fate of a retro
bait fish??
All hail, Amy, Myles, and Andrew for Small Town Throw Down. 5.11 ao
Really? Be careful up on that one fa' sure!
check out the run into the Knobbs ! eey Ha!
Pitch Ten to the top: 340 or 400 feet!! 8 boltz runout!!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1222599&tn=0
Learn from the old !
when in doubt
RunIt Out! . . .
sorry it went away . . .throw it back up!
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couchmaster
climber
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Feb 24, 2015 - 05:48am PT
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Cavemonkey asked: "Leave as a sketchfest or make it a sport climb. It's quite good though I've already led it twice! Won't again but toproped it the other day and it was so good!! (Chossy mixed ice) "
Climb area, specific location and local consensus all matter.
*** You don't say what the particular ethics are of the area. That matters.
*** How difficult it is to troprope. If getting to the top is a difficult, steep, chossy, dirty death defying approach, then that matters.
*** After the 2nd or 3rd climber comes up to you and says: "I led your new route the other day and it sucked, you should add a bolt right XXXX (insert specific location) and then you notice nobody else doing the route, then you add the bolt. That matters.
Notice that nowhere on that list is giving 2 f*#ks what any anonymous f*#kwad on the internet says (like this post you are reading) who have never been to that area nor ever seen that climb (like the f*#kwad typing this - although when a good dude like Todd Gordon or good dudette like Tami shows up with advice with many FA's under his/her belt, you need to read those words carefully, however, note that they are not anonymous internet persons.
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Crump
Social climber
Lakewood, CO
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Feb 24, 2015 - 09:15am PT
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I have done literally hundreds of first ascents, ground up, hand drilled, etc. I have also retro-ed several of them over the years. We have also maintained and replaced the original bolts...
Almost all of those retros were done for specific reasons in the context of local requirements. I used a few criteria on these decisions and almost all were done through a community review and approval process.
For example at Enchanted Rock, I retro-ed Clockwerk Orange adding a 3rd bolt to breakup a 45 foot runout, ground fall. The reasons why were:
1) Mistake by the FA... I dirted my bolt kit not realizing that the runout was longer then it looked. I would have placed a bolt if I had my kit during the FA.
2) Multiple long falls with injuries. Enchanted Rock is a State Natural Area and access is always fragile. Accidents and injuries put access at risk. Same with Real Gravy as it had multiple 50+ foot falls and two broken legs...
These routes fell into a community-access based criteria.
Several other routes I retro-ed were climbs of easier grades that I had soloed. With such a limited resource as Enchanted Rock and a growing community of beginner and intermediate climbers, there is a real need for accessible and protected routes. Also when these climbs were soloed bolting was illegal and we faced a $500 per bolt fine if caught. Needless to say, bolts were only placed where absolutely necessary! These routes now are some of the most popular and frequented climbs in the park. I take great personal satisfaction from this.
Also due to limited resource, and through the community process I retro-ed a handful of my higher grade routes seeking a balance for both protected quality routes, and classic hairballs. These were often done in pairs. One route retro-ed paired with a classic that is preserved. For example, The retro of Real Gravy was paired with the preservation of the Gravitron.
The real point is that it is a local issue, governed by context, and should be managed within a community process. For me to have said, "No retros on my routes!" would have been incredibly selfish, and would have deprived the broader community access to some really excellent climbing.
That said, retro my preserved routes and die!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Feb 24, 2015 - 10:50am PT
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I think lines that are worked to perfection on TR and than bolted with artificial runouts are kind of meh
If bolted top down, then it's total horsesh#t.
If done ground up by someone that has rehearsed the route religiously, then yeah, also pretty much silly.
If done ground up by someone that may have rehearsed it once before on TR years prior? Same treatment? Hard for me to rationalize it one way or the other. Most don't care, but some do.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Feb 24, 2015 - 03:13pm PT
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Are there really people that think they're not allowed to change the routes they put up themselves? That seems weird.
Do all routes need to be made safe? Nope.
Is it selfish to make all of the best climbing at an area really run-out and essentially off limits to 99% of climbers. Yup.
Sorry, this comes up every time I spend a day on Moro Rock, carry on
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 25, 2015 - 06:32am PT
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Crump, nice.
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DesertFox
climber
Vegas
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Last fall my acquaintances in Flagstaff had a bit of a tiff over this issue. A couple young strong guys decided they were going to go back and add a few bolts to some of their very hard gear climbs that had sketchy gear, including marginal slider nuts (marginal for sliders that is, which aren't exactly inspiring to being with). I believe they had headpointed almost all these routes and decided they didn't want to leave a slew of lines that could be potential death routes for an onsight attempt.
One of their friends went off on them about bolting cracks and incited many of her (well known climber) facebook friends to join in the public bashing of these guys.
This excellent blog post was written in response to explain the issue. grassroutesclimbing.com/2014/10/14/change-of-seasons-change-of-mind/
Here is a route that is a good example of one of the routes that had bolts added http://www.mountainproject.com/v/pack-mentality/109565113
I think their approach is entirely reasonable and in face laudable.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Some routes can seem down right criminal, and in the end, have been really only like a stupid statement. It doesn't leave a good climb for hardly anyone, and has only been a selfish thing to leave for the climbing community, and do to the rock.
Seems criminal to think every route needs to be safe. If that is the case maybe they should all be flat.
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