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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Feb 21, 2015 - 01:00pm PT
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Must be the dawning of the age of pedanticism
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 21, 2015 - 01:41pm PT
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That is the truth x15 x15, and well said the word trad is really not as well suited as old school ground up no pre inspection !
on almost all first trys on first accents,though, the loose scale(rock in JTree especially) but I have seen pics of tradmans work after it fell off the cliff after bolting it,too( nonsense sorry)
Loose siht is what will ... Stop or worse, kcuF the program.
TODD Gordon (GORODO) Bob gains and Big AL
I do not face plant or her space betweenth the knees an' knavel,)(=sweet spot and I am sixteen for ever!
All the best to you and thanks Gorgeous GORODO (Your pictures you homo)😃😆👹✌️👍
I have a bunch maybe 100 New holds for the fund raiser but the shipping makes it st00pid to get them to you! Send them one at a time starting when the snow meltz in Boston?
NOT
man I do not want to get slagged or tazed, whatever
and I am watching Mud, sweat and Gears! "truck O War"
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 21, 2015 - 05:24pm PT
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Snake Dike was retro-bolted by the FA team. Beck, Bridwell and Fredericks. They believed that offering novices hundreds of feet of 5.4 up Half Dome, with no pro, would be dangerous and irresponsible. So, they did the right thing, went back, and retrobolted the dike every 75 feet, or so.
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bob
climber
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Feb 21, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
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Go big. If you think its worth it for you, or for everyone else.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Feb 21, 2015 - 06:59pm PT
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Bob Gaines rapbolted my tr California Face and renamed it Boulderado. Paul Bourne and I climbed Chris Millers' tr California Girls ground up,onsite drilling on stance and renamed it Muffin Top. Topropes are not first ascents...merely a practice exercise.I would only hope if someone were to lead an existing tr it would be in the best style.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Feb 21, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
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I led three pitches today and top roped one. Had a f*#king blast on all of them.
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bob
climber
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Feb 21, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
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I already did on a couple of my own Kevin. ;-) I don't retro anyone else's routes. I've upgraded bolts on existing routes and that is it.
I'd love to retro a bunch of routes that hopefully won't ever be retro-bolted. I think I know why they shouldn't be.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:53pm PT
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Topropes are not first ascents...merely a practice exercise
Masterbation, no baby, no name, no birth certificate.
Probably no girlfriend.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 21, 2015 - 11:42pm PT
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Retro bolting your own route?
Athough a mixed route, it does bring up some interesting questions about the topic in general.
Means you are older, not as bold and are thinking of the legacy?
Keep it bold with less enjoyment for the masses but retaining the purity of the original intent - inciting a few purists to rave about your route (or not)?
Or soften it up with bolts and give into the "progression of the sport" to allow easier access to the larger community, but lose some of the spirit of the thing?
Tough choice, and the oft-untold bane of the First Ascentionist.
I say let some poor sap retro it without permission, then lambaste them for it - secretly being happy about the whole affair.
I give to you, though not completely in the context above, a famous and classic Smith Rock route for your consideration:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/zebra-seam/105804292
Classic now because of retro-bolting, otherwise it would be some intense trad-daddy scaring the kids away from Zebra Direct.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 22, 2015 - 02:51am PT
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I love that. No baby = No name and NO FA.
Top rope is practice for the real thing.
following on the other hand totally counts. A climbing rope is a team. The 2nd makes an important contribution to the team so following counts. Just ask Al Rubin. he has probobly hundreds of FA credits and probobly did not lead a single pitch on an FA? Top ropeing however is still just practice for the real thing and does not count as FA Might not make sense to the Cali boys but our climbing rules are silly and that is just the way it is....
For those of you who keep chiming in that top ropeing is fun well no one ever said masturbation was not fun. We just say it does not count as getting laied;)
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 22, 2015 - 04:54am PT
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Ego
Words
Meaning
Numbers
Ego feeding
Drop the credit
no one cares
Go climb
a rock!
Actually I do care, but the point is that the best style is to strive for, not that it is all
About you or me me me , respect the fact that it was climbed before
you did it in a better style...but not first, there can be only one. . .1st
You could go to the issue that naming and/or guide book ,credit and ego cause some of this
"Kurflufel "
I said before change happens and those changes effect the way we climb things.
I have skin on both sides of this,
Trace Readington Mason III was a climber in the late seventies through the early eighties.
He was a gifted alcoholic could drink then climb at what was then called 5.11,5.12 today
A lot of the climbs, that he would find clean and protect in the sparsely way that was the result of many of Gordon's reasons. Eventually saw leads with gear that did not exist in his time,
His gift for drinking was a wonder to behold.
His gift for climbing was more than annoying!
His ability to do the final moves on long standing problems
Without a rope was astounding!
History makes no mention of him
Another better know name is Frieda, a man who was double jointed,
Any one want to remember his Climbing feats? No?
Top rope or ground up on bolts is really close to the same thing
The mystery, the purity,is sacrificed, for survival sake, that's sanity.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Feb 22, 2015 - 06:32am PT
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From Randisi
If it can be top-roped why did you put any bolts in it at all?
Worth contemplating while putting our egos aside.
Leave the rock be whenever you can is a solid outdoor ethic. Bolting up one pitch routes that can be readily top-roped smacks of the consumer, media driven, look at me culture in climbing.
The gritstone crags are idyllic and clean, especially after rainy days when the chalk is washed away. A standard worth emulating.
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DonC
climber
CA
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Feb 22, 2015 - 09:18am PT
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I started climbing in Joshua Tree in the late 60’s. The guidebook at the time was just a few pages and we were doing all kinds of stuff not in the guide. We wandered all over the Park leading stuff, or throwing a top rope on things that looked like it would be fun to climb, but probably needed a bolt or two, and we felt they were simply to short to bolt. After all, at least for my little posse of friends, anything less than a full pitch was not a route anyway, but more of just a big boulder or a “practice climb, so why bolt it. Especially when we saw so few climbers and no one else would probably ever want to do it again anyway. At the time, for us, we would rather have fun on 5 – 10 little climbs a day rather than bolt one climb.
We never reported anything. I mean, for a short line in the backcountry of Joshua Tree that did not require bolts, how in the world could you ever know if you were the first one to do it? And for something that in our mind may have required one bolt, maybe there was someone before us that was bolder than us and already did it without the bolt. And bottom line, we were not out there for the purpose of claiming first ascents, we were there to have fun, climb and explore what back then was pretty unknown rock. We never thought back then that there would be a guidebook with 1000’s of these little “practice climbs”, a number of which have claimed first ascents long after others probably already did them.
There are clearly many significant short climbs where history was made and they should be documented. But that is not the routes we were doing, and that's not the case for the majority of routes in Joshua Tree. So all this arguing and semantics is about something that 95% of the time is not important anyway. I like Todd's "previously unreported" term.
This "conversation" needs to recognize that people climb for different reasons, and recognition is not important to everyone.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 22, 2015 - 09:48am PT
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Actually here is the rub
If there is a cliff short and stout full of loose rock that is without a doubt unclimbed with the exception of one two hundred year(now older than that) old beacon route to the top!
(revolutionary war signal tower) that sits above a neighbor hood who's to say that the (not at all wieney), on top rope, hooks n' pins, or free ground up, aren't all legit first accents?
The other areas that were just the same only over there by the Mine got home made bolts before SMC hangers and faster than chocolate thru a goose got closed and fenced off.
Then at another site the HMFIC =Head mother fvkrs in charge, armed the guards with rock salt in real guns that will stop all but the most. . . .
But we sure went st00pid or not it was fun, sorta
"run.. Silent ...Run... Deep" and Run and run zig zag when dad found out he got out his belt !!
Growing up climbing was all about climbing and there was no one to tell with out catching hell!!
I still know they are all my first accents !!
Come on and bolt them for me Tradman or any one else, I am not anti bolt!
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 22, 2015 - 10:06am PT
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Still going in circles i see.. I had a great day out climbing instead of arguing on the internet yesterday.. Lol
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 22, 2015 - 10:58am PT
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Yes and I live amongst those
say I won't stoop to the level
but yes locker
I know that that is the way of the east
Please find my cliff and climb them for the very first time don' t clip a pin or old wire,
And name it stick in my ierer,
If I had had a power drill $$or €or£ or¥ then bolting I would 'a but .,. . .
I can not spell . . Lol
'Ascents' I'll try less no more hard next time. . . Harder ! I mean.
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2015 - 11:49am PT
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Thanks for the thoughtful reply mrE, to bad i had to wade through pages and pages of what tradman thinks of topropes
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Feb 22, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
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I think the acceptance of top rope ascents was an effort to prevent grid bolting everything. Randisi's question early on about why bolt if it can be toproped is answered by the attitude that if you don't bolt it and lead it you can't claim it as an FA. Tragedy of the commons: if I don't bolt that marginal line someone else will, so it might as well be me that grazes the last blade of grass.
Tradman's from the NE, TR ascent acceptance seems like a pretty western US thing. Different rules for different regions is just fine, you just have to respect the dominant paradigm wherever you are.
On the original subject I'm pretty firmly in the Todd Gordon & Mister E camp and don't have much to add to their fine, honest, and pragmatic assessments.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 22, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
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It's YOUR route dude. Like Todd states, do as you wish. You own it.
Truth is, if your name is not on that parcel's Grant Deed you own nothing.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 22, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
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';lkj so only the lone Perry will know this onethis is of course a first ascent to the widow, cold no ropethis one and the next with out me on it is in your neck of the woodzSilent scream on sight but you'd have to ask her see as Im not on it this flair for the ridiculous, GPA, Green dragon the only story I got, the next is me at the anchor ,or notNow one for the Ladies as you see You are so right is all just a figment of my imagination and oh well see we need to have some one other than Gordo although he may object I have not ever ever climbed nothing except out of Bed
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