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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 20, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
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Leave as a sketchfest or make it a sport climb. It's quite good though I've already led it twice! Won't again but toproped it the other day and it was so good!! (Chossy mixed ice)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 20, 2015 - 09:57pm PT
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Sometimes during a first ascent'..things don't go as planned...and then it bugs you for years to come, when you wanted a first ascent to ...well;.....turn out differently......but it didn't go quite like you planned it.....
So;....years later;..you go back and "fix" the route up..so to speak;..the way you wanted it to go in the first place.
Poor decisions were made....wrong decisions were made. Things turned out jacked up or just plain wrong;..they don't have to stay that way forever.
If your FA is sukwad and not the way you wanted it to be..and you can "make it right".....go for it!....it doesn't have to stay jacked up forever;......complete the vision!!......don't let others bully you to "leave it the way it is..."......especially if it SUCKs!,..and you don't dig it the way it turned out.
It's a good feeling to "take care of business"...and complete the "vision" that was the genesis for the FA in the first place.
I do agree with "leave well enough alone'...but I Don't agree with "leave crap as crap when it can be golden".....just because it went down that way on the FA......
(but don't mess with other people's FAs.......that is THEIR business....go mess with your own....)..
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Feb 20, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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leave well enough alone.
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2015 - 10:48pm PT
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Wowsa!!!!!
Advice from tami, todd, and perry!!!!!!
Feel supa lucky to have such sage guidance
Might just add a couple fixed
Pieces... That way I can lead it again!!!
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2015 - 11:00pm PT
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My bad "the chief"
Just wondering if anyone had similar quandaries, proud of it but pride can be a shameful thing! Something to regret?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Feb 20, 2015 - 11:01pm PT
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Pink hangers only. Then subsequent teams can know which was which.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 05:34am PT
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Its your route. do as you please. personaly i like to put up routs that I enjoy climbing. I like to leave behind climbs that people (myself included) enjoy. Not some bag of crap that no one ever does.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Feb 21, 2015 - 06:55am PT
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Tidy up the loose ends, make it sporty but dont make it sport.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 07:52am PT
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because leading is more fun than top ropeing. I can never quite understand the so called purest faction that claims top ropeing somehow is better than leading.. old fuddy duddys stuck in some delusion that bolts are evil....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:02am PT
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it ain't true. top ropeing is practice for climbing like masturbation is practice for sex..
I hate the label tradclimber/tradman. In my experience most(not all) people who describe themselfs as trad climbers are not very good climbers and have all sorts of superiority issues not warented by their actual abilitys. I prefer to climb with Climbers not trad wankers;)
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rincon
climber
Coarsegold
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:12am PT
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What if, after getting the route wired... you decide there's too many bolts, and remove a few? Since, "you own it"...right?
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:13am PT
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Good to see you posting Randisi.
I agree with tradman that leading is better and a totally different experience.
You obviously don't own the route, but you have every right to add or take away from what you've done. If it's a worthy climb, make it as best as you can. If what makes it fun is the sporty lead, then don't water it down.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:14am PT
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Sport climbing...as someone once said, it is an "invisible top rope".
Doesn't make it any less fun, but there is some truth to that view I think.
A little, especially if it is done right. Best thing about a good sport vs top rope climb is I don't have to walk to the top and rap down before climbing. Which would be a real pain some places.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:15am PT
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BTW I agree that not everything needs to be bolted. there are many climbs simply not worth the effort, many climbs that are squeeze jobs or not esthetic enough or in a place that may cause access issues that are best left alone. On the other hand if it is a significant climb, a strikeing feature, a line that begs to be climbed yet lacks cracks for protection then hell yes I want to lead that climb and top ropeing will not satisfy that need.
And yes claiming an FA after a top rope is one of the lamest things ever done in climbing. top rope FA's have made it into a few guide books but I look at them as a poor decision and huge mistake by the author. Typcaly I describe those types of climbs as previously top roped but still awaiting an FA
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:20am PT
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For me I actually climb worse and don't use my full potential when top roping. Not saying top ropes aren't fun, I just like the fear of falling, even if it's a sport climb;-)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:22am PT
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I am tradmanclimbs because I used to be a weak tradwanker;) I am not praticularly strong now but i am much more well rounded climber.
Leading a sport climb top ropeing? not most of the spurt climbs i have been on.. In fact I would venture that your average sport climb is way f*#king scarier than your average trad climb. You can't sew up a sport climb. you have to actually climb to the next bolt.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:30am PT
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Of course, you know, given that logic, you should solo.
Shit! I believe you have won that argument. Maybe I'll just boulder, haha.
Good hearing from you, I'm going top roping now!
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:33am PT
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What about allowing someone else fix a route for you?
I doubt I will ever go back and add the bolts I think would be good for a route...
So go ahead and fix the routes for me!!!
Is that an invitation for abuse?, maybe
maybe not, most folks will only add the bolts that are really needed, and not add bolts willy nilly just to be a jerk
my extra 2 cents
Some of the best climbable rock has been taken off the table of being super classic routes because the FA climber couldn't stop to put bolts in because it was TOO HARD.
Of course I've had this discussion before, few agree with me, it's just too liberal for general acceptance,
our Top Down Authoritarian Rock Climbing Ethics Police have dictated that it's unacceptable to add gear to an existing route no matter how f*#ked up it is.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:39am PT
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Actually I am correct. Your average sport and trad climbs are G rated. the vast majority of trad wankers who slag on sport climbers do not climb the run out climbs they like to idolize.
On your average trad climb if you get scared you plug in a piece in front of your nose while you still have a piece at your bellybutton. heck sometimes you can do the entire route by placeing gear above your head for every hard move. On your average spurt climb you have to actually climb above the bolt to make your next clip. Heck i even know a few anti sport climbers who go sport climbing with a light trad rack and add gear in between the bolts because they are too scared to climb to the next bolt without adding the chicken gear;)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:44am PT
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Tami. it is commonly accepted that the FA party has the say on what fixed gear is allowed on a climb. the FA party can make a big stink if someone adds fixed gear to their climb or they can go ahead and add or remove fixed gear as they please. It's how we have been playing the game for at least the last 20 years
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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top ropes are legit FAs........and authors put top ropes in guidebooks because of this.
Often times there is a good reason why a climb is a top rope. Many times there is a lame-o reason for top roping a FA.
Here are some of the reasons why a climb is a top rope:
1. It's a squeeze job and not a candidate for bolting
2. It's a crappy climb and not worth bolting
3. The rock is "hollow" or too chossy for bolting
4. It's the decision of the FA to top rope instead of bolt
(this, I believe, is weak sauce, and if someone else comes along and wishes to "upgrade" to a lead climb;...I'm all for it;...leading is where it's at;...top roping is whimpy and luke-warm at best)
5. FA party is too lazy
6. FA party doesn't own a bolt kit
7. Fa party doesn't know how to bolt
8. FA party is greedy for FAs, but doesn't want to put in the work.
9. FA party is too lazy to hand drill
10. Our government, which has decided that fixed anchors on public lands (including in wilderness) is a reasonable responsible thing for climbers to do......has made all sorts of "clauses" that have limited or prohibited this sort of thing in our Nat. Parks and public lands,...so bolting and fixed anchors may be illigal or prohibited in your area and top roping the answer for now.
11. Some people are anti-bolt and think top roping is cool
12. The top rope route may be in a high use area with lots of visitors and bolts would look too "ugly" and put climbers in an unfavorable light.
13. There are petroglyphs or pictographs or some cultural site at or near the climb......
14. the climb is too short to bolt , but too long or bad landing to boulder, so just leave it as a top rope.
15. FA party did the top rope, planning to return to bolt, but forgot, ran out of time, or changed their mind.
16. There were no stances to stop and clip bolts, so just leave it as a top rope.
17. The route wandered around too much, didn't top out, had a huge loose flake,......and would be best as a top rope.
18. The base of the climb is water, or poisen oak, or a dangerous or hard to get to place....so just lower down and top rope.
19. FA party had limited time, but still wanted their FA.
20. FA party cannot afford bolts, hangers and fixed protection (if you are a dirt bad climber, and do alot of FAs..this is a real situation).
Anyways.....lots of reasons for top ropes. You decide which ones are "real" reasons in your eyes, or lame excuses for the top rope....
In my opinion, leading is the sh#t, where it's at, and what it's all about;...for me anyways.....
I also agree with Craig Fry;...if someone thinks one (or more) of my FAs is dangerous or done up wrong;..hit me up;...and i bet I'll agree that a "fix" would be fine and in order. I also agree with Tammy that just because you did the FA...you don't "own" the rock, route, or anything;..BUT, in the climbing "game"...us climbers have decided that, in most cases, the wishes of the FA party should be respected and that the vision and nature of the route remains as the FA party decides on;........(I think future generations , or even modern climbers, aren't always "impressed" with many classic lines done up "back in the day" with R or X ratings, leaving them "unattainable" for many modern climbers who climb and think differently now a days..and you can't really blame them either...)...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:02am PT
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Not buying any of your excuses. It was previously top roped by a bunch of wankers who did not have the ability to lead it. I came allong with that ability and led it. I get the FA they get to weep. Its kind of like the difference between haveing a date, maby kissing a bit but not getting past 2nd base or falling in love and have a great intimate relatinship. Of course some climb might be one night stands but you still have to get past 3rd base and in to home plate:)
We put up a climb called Tittys And Cake. a visiting climber told us that it climbed fast,dirty and fun. Just like a strip club.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:09am PT
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If you bolt up a top rope...do you get to re- name it?..( i say...maybe....)
If you free an aid climb;...do you get to re-name it? (I say yes;..because now the climb is a completely different experience....but it doesn't HAVE to be re-named...)..
Locker is correct;...the top rope "wanker" DID get the FA......they ascended the climb first.......whatever their guided or misguided reasoning is or was.....(shame, isn't it...)...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:13am PT
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not in these parts. Fa is an FA top rope is a top rope. I never would even think of reporting a top rope as an FA. I keep a lid on it untill I come back and climb it. Heck at rumny you don't even get credit for bolting,tope ropeing and equiping the climb and climbing it ground up with one hang. you don't get the FA at 14c A0 you get Zip or at the most a mention that you tried and failed. Some other kid comes allong and redpoints it and it goes in the book as the FA
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:20am PT
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If a top rope is a long established top rope with a common name and you lead it then I would say no name change. If someone top roped it and named it claiming an FA ( NOT) but it is not a commonly done top rope hence no name recognition then by all means name it when you get the real FA
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:21am PT
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Here in California, ANY ascent is an ascent;....top rope, aid, hang dog, shoulder stance, french free, pink point, brown point, califorina brown point, red point w/beta, red point without beta, solo, chalk, no chalk, back rope, pre-placed gear, bat hooks, ground up, rap bolted, ...........it's a climb and rock WAS ascended;......BUT;..just be totally honest with the style of ascent and what really went down.......It's a workable system which is based on integrity and honesty;.....works for us westerners 99.9% of the time....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:22am PT
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We have all kinds of silly rules in climbing that don't make sense. We make the rules on how the game is played. top ropes don't count hence no FA.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:26am PT
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So how about this
Are these cool and legit?
1. First female ascent
2. first winter ascent
3. first solo ascent
4. first senior ascent
5. first native american ascent
6. first american ascent
7. first gay ascent
8. first handicap ascent
9. first no chalk ascent
10. first foreign ascent
I still agree with locker........an ascent IS still an ascent;....no matter what good or poor style it is done in.....climbing DOES have all sorts of silly "rules" to the game.
I think out west...we have lots and lots of unclimbed rock;......in areas of limited routes and route potentials...the rules get more "defined" and strict....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:29am PT
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There are sport climbs @ rumny and elsewere that have been top roped dozens of times yet the only person who gets the FA in the book is the kid who finally leads it without a fall.
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John M
climber
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:32am PT
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First Italian accent ascent. You know the girls love those italian accents.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:33am PT
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I thought ken nichols chopped all the climbs at Rumney years ago...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:33am PT
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Ascent inplys you start from the bottom. Top ropeing implys that you start from the Top = No first ascent. none of that other sh#t means anything. the first person who starts at the bottom and climbs to the top without a rope from above gets the FA unless it is a sport climb in which case they have to actually get the climb free.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:39am PT
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Tradmanclimbs;....
If that is the way things go in Vermont;...good on ya!....I sort of agree with you;...that is the game I try to play......Start at the bottom and lead the climb without cheatin' or hanging......THAT is the real FA in my eyes......(the rest were...something else, weren't they..)...
(Locker is one of those "liberal" democrates;.......he thinks everything should be free and easy for all;.......This all started with the Kennedys;.....smoking pot in the White house, sleeping with movie stars, driving off bridges drunk;....THAT is what we get for putting an Irish Catholic in the White house!).....trandmanclimbs;....give up on him;.....those bleeding heart liberals won't give in;........they would just as soon give all our hard earned $ away to crack heads on welfare then to put it to good use with our schools or our defense budget.....besides;...he's an Obama-lovin Palin-hatin' glue sniffer too.....AND Locker live in Landers;...more real hillbillies in Landers then in West Virginia.....)..
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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TR FA=Popsicle in the sun
TR FAs are bogus. Snake oil. Chess where a pawn can move as the queen or knights.
Climbing will become gymnastics otherwise.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:55am PT
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If the TR is jugged by the partner of the historical TR FA first, does he get then get credit for the first aid ascent and the guy/gal who makes all the moves without weighting the rope get the FFA?
Ridiculous. I have played Scrabble with people like you TR FAers. Making up words.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:08am PT
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Clinker;....i know it doesn't make sense that the person who jumared and the person who lead and free climbed BOTH get the FA credit;...BUT;.......they DID both ASCEND the route...and the both are part of the FA PARTY.......that is my take on it anyways.
When I did FAs of multi-pitch stuff out in the southwest in the 80s.....sometimes we lead, sometimes we followed, sometimes we aided, sometimes we free climbs;..BUT......whatever we did, we were ascending the route, and the humans who ascended that route got the FA credit.......(I don't play scrabble either....)...I does sound alittle fishy, I know;...but think about;.......for stuff like that;..the FA "rules" cannot be so strict or defined.......
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:14am PT
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The top ropeing simply does not count. I never even in my wildest dreams have thought that I could claim an FA and name a climb by top ropeing it. If someone is top ropeing a project and they seem to have done nothing with it for awhile I will ask them if they plan on leading it or if they are through with it. If they say they are through then it is open project. I will then go ahead and do an FA and name it.
In ground up the first person to start at the bottom and climb to the top even with aid gets an FA. Supertaco Wars 5.10 A0 a subsquent attempt that goes clean becomes the FFA Supertaco Wars 5.10+
A climb that is cleaned and equipped top down as in a sport climb or a trad headpoint (top down trad go figuer) the only way to get an FA is to climb it clean. being the first to get a rap bolted or top down equipped headpoint with one hang does not give you the FA at 5.10 A0 it gets you diddly squat or pehaps an honorary mention as previously attemptng and comming close. The only way to get the FA of the top equipped sport climb or head point is to start at the bottom and go to the top clean. Top ropeing never even enters the equasion. It simply does not count. Quite simple actually.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:22am PT
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So Locker hooked up with this chick Rapunzel and got a FA in the process.
TR FAs are fairy tales.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:23am PT
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"There are sport climbs @ rumny and elsewere that have been top roped dozens of times yet the only person who gets the FA in the book is the kid who finally leads it without a fall."...
This is because the Rumny guide, like most modern guidebooks probably records the First Free Ascent rather than the First Ascent.
Technically you could top rope it free, but since you came in top down, it wouldn't qualify for a FFA. If however, it was the first time anyone had climbed that piece of stone, it would still be an FA.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:24am PT
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No because top ropeing does not count. telling me you had sex with someone because you got to 2nd base and the went home and masturbated would be just as dishonest as telling me you got an FA by top ropeing. top ropeing does not count therefore it is not an FA therfore there is nothing to report. If the the climb is an established populer top rope then that is worth reporting. Supertaco Wars 5.10+ a long standing top rope problem that was finally headpointed by a strong party from Californica.
Supertaco Wars 5.10+R FA Big Blue and Locker 2-21-15
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:28am PT
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Just because they don't count in your local area does not mean that they don't count in other areas. In my opinion FA TRs do count, they are a useful way of reducing overbolting and squeeze jobs.
It may seem ridiculous to you, but plenty of things about climbing seem ridiculous to a lot of people. Redpointing at all could be defined as ridiculous, what if the FA was defined as the first onsight?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:29am PT
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If you are claiming a ground up Fa then a previous TR by yourself would need to be mentioned. after a top down recon mission Locker and Big Blue came back for a ground up attempt at the imposing arette.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:30am PT
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You established that there is a climbable path. That is a basic definition for First Ascent. How does that not apply?
I will agree it is no great feat in the case of a top rope. It takes nothing away from the true prize in my opinion which is the First Free Ascent.
Edit: No one said a top rope was ground up. If they did then they lied... Lol
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:35am PT
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Technically if you have to clean a route, you can't get an onsite anyways.....
It's all semantics.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:37am PT
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The most absurd thing on the fcking planet would be the concept that someone without the sack to lead a climb could top rope something, name it and then claim ownership of that climb preventing anyone else from climbing it ground up and adding nessicary fixed gear. Totally fcking pathetic. As bad as stealing candy from little kids! there are other ways to prevent squeeze jobs but claiming top rope fa's is not one of them. I will never acnowlege my own or anyone elses top rope foray as an FA. top ropeing simply does not count...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:41am PT
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Alex, that was my point. there is the asteric that you had previous knowlege of the terraine. you equipped it ground up but you still rapped in to have a look first. Still a great adventure but something that needs to be disclosed.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:43am PT
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No lies involved. TR does not count as an FA anymore than mastubating counts as getting laied.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:53am PT
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have you ever equipped a route ground up? Perhaps you rap over a huge roof and have a look. You get all excited and come back with a partner, hike to the base and climb it your god damed straight it counts as a ground up FA but the inspection needs to be mentioned.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:58am PT
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etsablished TR routs are a bit different. usually there is no record of who did them first. they may be in areas that are not bolt friendly so caution would be taken to not bolt if it would cause a big stink. I would stick to my guns that TR does not count and call it an FA :) thousands may have pleasured themselfs over that piece of stone yet none had actually gotten the FA:)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 11:04am PT
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Alex. it shure as hell is not a rap bolted climb if you start at the bottom and climb to the top. so what if you had a look first. Stinky Blue Butt Plug 5.11a this climb was inspected previously on rappell. the party then returned the following spring and bagged the ground up FA. If the rapped in to trundel as is sometimes nessicary I would mention the trundel and change the wording to Equipped ground up VS Ground up FA
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 11:05am PT
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If a top rope falls over in a forest, but no one is there to hear it...is it still a top rope........
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 11:07am PT
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Established means populer. as in it is commonly climbed as a TR. tread lightly before adding fixed gear etc. somthing at a raw cliff that has been TRd once maybe years ago is different.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 11:19am PT
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If top roping were made illigal, only top ropers would have guns....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 11:19am PT
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This is top down this is ground up prior knowlege changes the level of purity but certainly not the mechanics of the adventure.
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Feb 21, 2015 - 11:20am PT
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Todd and Tradman, my 2 favorite posters, I tend to click on their threads anytime I see one. Can count on good climbing content, photos, etc . Locker on the othethand, not always so sure. The scarry thing here is I
Oh god say it isn't so. I
I
I agree with Locker.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 11:23am PT
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Correct. FFA is what you get when you free an aid climb. Since top ropeing does not count FA is what you get when you do the FA of a climb that has not yet been led free. If the wimpy top ropers aided the thing first then they would get the FA and someone would then have to try and get the FFA ;)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 11:25am PT
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Locker does things differently because he is from Landers;....(Why couldn't Jesus be born in Landers?.....because they couldn't find three wise men and a virgin)....
.
What do you call a pretty girl in Landers?........a visitor....
What do you call a high school graduate in Landers?.... Boss....
Why do all the joshua tree in the Park lean to the north?...
because Landers SUKS.....
Why do people from landers have beautiful noses?.....because they are all hand picked...
Why did the Landers resident cross the road....?
(I'm just wondering how he got out of jail...).....
What is the difference between a bowling ball and a girl from landers?.......A bowling ball is hard to pick up...
What do girls from landers use for birth control?....
their personalities...
What is the definition of safe sex in Landers?
putting signs on all the animals that bite and kick.....
Why are rectal thermometers banned in Landers?...
They cause too much brain damage....
What are the best 4 years of life for a Landers resident?
Third grade...
What do Landers girls say after sex?
Get off me Dad;...you are crushing my smokes...
What do Tornados and people from landers have in common?..
They both end up in trailer parks...
Why don't kids play hide and seek in Landers?..
no one would go looking for them...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 11:37am PT
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If the climb was redicliously hard and significant(not anything I would be climbing) it would bear mentioning that it was previously top roped by so and so but Not mention it as an FA. your run of the mill 5.10 or whatever the top rope does not even bear mentioning. a populer top rope would go in the book as Dirty Pantys 5.3 a long standing top rope problem finally led by Big Blue. FA Big Blue and the Bluetts 2015
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
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Not lieing cause TR is not an FA:)TR weather it be mine or anyone elses simply does not count
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 21, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
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We do not all live and climb in east gumby Phuck!
Some of us live and climb around exclusive neighborhoods.
I am only up to post sixty one so I will weigh back in the point is semantics
The meaning of the wordzzz be back later sorry
What does first mean and the root of the word accent? Is you a teacher aren't you ain't gonna take it from that point o' seeing things? I do believe that ground up no rope is the most pure, way to climb up anything.
way back ropes were not to be trusted and down climbing was as important as climbing up things
The change in view of how to do things coincides with change in technology.
The changes come when survival is the name of the game.
Both of the proponents can be right
but Ground up is the ultimate style to strive for .
I really need to sleep it off but when the guests at the Mnt house complained about the noise of ringing pinz going in bashing pins stopped and we climbed for twenty more years before trad climbers that tradman portrays correctly got us thrown off. It was not that black and white but for argument sake that is kind of how it went down!
P e d a n t i c ? . P e d a n t a c i s m ?
H o o b i e ?
I .w i l l. H a v e. T o. . L o o k . .T h a t. .Up?
This is not a dis, my Shablet goes bad and that is one way to try and reign in the crazy, auto correct!! Sorry about the crazy It. Can't. Be Helped
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Feb 21, 2015 - 01:00pm PT
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Must be the dawning of the age of pedanticism
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 21, 2015 - 01:41pm PT
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That is the truth x15 x15, and well said the word trad is really not as well suited as old school ground up no pre inspection !
on almost all first trys on first accents,though, the loose scale(rock in JTree especially) but I have seen pics of tradmans work after it fell off the cliff after bolting it,too( nonsense sorry)
Loose siht is what will ... Stop or worse, kcuF the program.
TODD Gordon (GORODO) Bob gains and Big AL
I do not face plant or her space betweenth the knees an' knavel,)(=sweet spot and I am sixteen for ever!
All the best to you and thanks Gorgeous GORODO (Your pictures you homo)😃😆👹✌️👍
I have a bunch maybe 100 New holds for the fund raiser but the shipping makes it st00pid to get them to you! Send them one at a time starting when the snow meltz in Boston?
NOT
man I do not want to get slagged or tazed, whatever
and I am watching Mud, sweat and Gears! "truck O War"
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 21, 2015 - 05:24pm PT
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Snake Dike was retro-bolted by the FA team. Beck, Bridwell and Fredericks. They believed that offering novices hundreds of feet of 5.4 up Half Dome, with no pro, would be dangerous and irresponsible. So, they did the right thing, went back, and retrobolted the dike every 75 feet, or so.
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bob
climber
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Feb 21, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
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Go big. If you think its worth it for you, or for everyone else.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Feb 21, 2015 - 06:59pm PT
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Bob Gaines rapbolted my tr California Face and renamed it Boulderado. Paul Bourne and I climbed Chris Millers' tr California Girls ground up,onsite drilling on stance and renamed it Muffin Top. Topropes are not first ascents...merely a practice exercise.I would only hope if someone were to lead an existing tr it would be in the best style.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Feb 21, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
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I led three pitches today and top roped one. Had a f*#king blast on all of them.
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bob
climber
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Feb 21, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
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I already did on a couple of my own Kevin. ;-) I don't retro anyone else's routes. I've upgraded bolts on existing routes and that is it.
I'd love to retro a bunch of routes that hopefully won't ever be retro-bolted. I think I know why they shouldn't be.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:53pm PT
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Topropes are not first ascents...merely a practice exercise
Masterbation, no baby, no name, no birth certificate.
Probably no girlfriend.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 21, 2015 - 11:42pm PT
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Retro bolting your own route?
Athough a mixed route, it does bring up some interesting questions about the topic in general.
Means you are older, not as bold and are thinking of the legacy?
Keep it bold with less enjoyment for the masses but retaining the purity of the original intent - inciting a few purists to rave about your route (or not)?
Or soften it up with bolts and give into the "progression of the sport" to allow easier access to the larger community, but lose some of the spirit of the thing?
Tough choice, and the oft-untold bane of the First Ascentionist.
I say let some poor sap retro it without permission, then lambaste them for it - secretly being happy about the whole affair.
I give to you, though not completely in the context above, a famous and classic Smith Rock route for your consideration:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/zebra-seam/105804292
Classic now because of retro-bolting, otherwise it would be some intense trad-daddy scaring the kids away from Zebra Direct.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 22, 2015 - 02:51am PT
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I love that. No baby = No name and NO FA.
Top rope is practice for the real thing.
following on the other hand totally counts. A climbing rope is a team. The 2nd makes an important contribution to the team so following counts. Just ask Al Rubin. he has probobly hundreds of FA credits and probobly did not lead a single pitch on an FA? Top ropeing however is still just practice for the real thing and does not count as FA Might not make sense to the Cali boys but our climbing rules are silly and that is just the way it is....
For those of you who keep chiming in that top ropeing is fun well no one ever said masturbation was not fun. We just say it does not count as getting laied;)
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 22, 2015 - 04:54am PT
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Ego
Words
Meaning
Numbers
Ego feeding
Drop the credit
no one cares
Go climb
a rock!
Actually I do care, but the point is that the best style is to strive for, not that it is all
About you or me me me , respect the fact that it was climbed before
you did it in a better style...but not first, there can be only one. . .1st
You could go to the issue that naming and/or guide book ,credit and ego cause some of this
"Kurflufel "
I said before change happens and those changes effect the way we climb things.
I have skin on both sides of this,
Trace Readington Mason III was a climber in the late seventies through the early eighties.
He was a gifted alcoholic could drink then climb at what was then called 5.11,5.12 today
A lot of the climbs, that he would find clean and protect in the sparsely way that was the result of many of Gordon's reasons. Eventually saw leads with gear that did not exist in his time,
His gift for drinking was a wonder to behold.
His gift for climbing was more than annoying!
His ability to do the final moves on long standing problems
Without a rope was astounding!
History makes no mention of him
Another better know name is Frieda, a man who was double jointed,
Any one want to remember his Climbing feats? No?
Top rope or ground up on bolts is really close to the same thing
The mystery, the purity,is sacrificed, for survival sake, that's sanity.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Feb 22, 2015 - 06:32am PT
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From Randisi
If it can be top-roped why did you put any bolts in it at all?
Worth contemplating while putting our egos aside.
Leave the rock be whenever you can is a solid outdoor ethic. Bolting up one pitch routes that can be readily top-roped smacks of the consumer, media driven, look at me culture in climbing.
The gritstone crags are idyllic and clean, especially after rainy days when the chalk is washed away. A standard worth emulating.
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DonC
climber
CA
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Feb 22, 2015 - 09:18am PT
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I started climbing in Joshua Tree in the late 60’s. The guidebook at the time was just a few pages and we were doing all kinds of stuff not in the guide. We wandered all over the Park leading stuff, or throwing a top rope on things that looked like it would be fun to climb, but probably needed a bolt or two, and we felt they were simply to short to bolt. After all, at least for my little posse of friends, anything less than a full pitch was not a route anyway, but more of just a big boulder or a “practice climb, so why bolt it. Especially when we saw so few climbers and no one else would probably ever want to do it again anyway. At the time, for us, we would rather have fun on 5 – 10 little climbs a day rather than bolt one climb.
We never reported anything. I mean, for a short line in the backcountry of Joshua Tree that did not require bolts, how in the world could you ever know if you were the first one to do it? And for something that in our mind may have required one bolt, maybe there was someone before us that was bolder than us and already did it without the bolt. And bottom line, we were not out there for the purpose of claiming first ascents, we were there to have fun, climb and explore what back then was pretty unknown rock. We never thought back then that there would be a guidebook with 1000’s of these little “practice climbs”, a number of which have claimed first ascents long after others probably already did them.
There are clearly many significant short climbs where history was made and they should be documented. But that is not the routes we were doing, and that's not the case for the majority of routes in Joshua Tree. So all this arguing and semantics is about something that 95% of the time is not important anyway. I like Todd's "previously unreported" term.
This "conversation" needs to recognize that people climb for different reasons, and recognition is not important to everyone.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 22, 2015 - 09:48am PT
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Actually here is the rub
If there is a cliff short and stout full of loose rock that is without a doubt unclimbed with the exception of one two hundred year(now older than that) old beacon route to the top!
(revolutionary war signal tower) that sits above a neighbor hood who's to say that the (not at all wieney), on top rope, hooks n' pins, or free ground up, aren't all legit first accents?
The other areas that were just the same only over there by the Mine got home made bolts before SMC hangers and faster than chocolate thru a goose got closed and fenced off.
Then at another site the HMFIC =Head mother fvkrs in charge, armed the guards with rock salt in real guns that will stop all but the most. . . .
But we sure went st00pid or not it was fun, sorta
"run.. Silent ...Run... Deep" and Run and run zig zag when dad found out he got out his belt !!
Growing up climbing was all about climbing and there was no one to tell with out catching hell!!
I still know they are all my first accents !!
Come on and bolt them for me Tradman or any one else, I am not anti bolt!
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 22, 2015 - 10:06am PT
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Still going in circles i see.. I had a great day out climbing instead of arguing on the internet yesterday.. Lol
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 22, 2015 - 10:58am PT
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Yes and I live amongst those
say I won't stoop to the level
but yes locker
I know that that is the way of the east
Please find my cliff and climb them for the very first time don' t clip a pin or old wire,
And name it stick in my ierer,
If I had had a power drill $$or €or£ or¥ then bolting I would 'a but .,. . .
I can not spell . . Lol
'Ascents' I'll try less no more hard next time. . . Harder ! I mean.
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2015 - 11:49am PT
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Thanks for the thoughtful reply mrE, to bad i had to wade through pages and pages of what tradman thinks of topropes
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Feb 22, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
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I think the acceptance of top rope ascents was an effort to prevent grid bolting everything. Randisi's question early on about why bolt if it can be toproped is answered by the attitude that if you don't bolt it and lead it you can't claim it as an FA. Tragedy of the commons: if I don't bolt that marginal line someone else will, so it might as well be me that grazes the last blade of grass.
Tradman's from the NE, TR ascent acceptance seems like a pretty western US thing. Different rules for different regions is just fine, you just have to respect the dominant paradigm wherever you are.
On the original subject I'm pretty firmly in the Todd Gordon & Mister E camp and don't have much to add to their fine, honest, and pragmatic assessments.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 22, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
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It's YOUR route dude. Like Todd states, do as you wish. You own it.
Truth is, if your name is not on that parcel's Grant Deed you own nothing.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 22, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
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';lkj so only the lone Perry will know this onethis is of course a first ascent to the widow, cold no ropethis one and the next with out me on it is in your neck of the woodzSilent scream on sight but you'd have to ask her see as Im not on it this flair for the ridiculous, GPA, Green dragon the only story I got, the next is me at the anchor ,or notNow one for the Ladies as you see You are so right is all just a figment of my imagination and oh well see we need to have some one other than Gordo although he may object I have not ever ever climbed nothing except out of Bed
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 22, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
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Doing a FA means it's your ROUTE;...not your ROCK.....(Public lands belong to the people).
Climbers have agreed to respect the wishes of the first ascent party on their ROUTE...(not their ROCK).
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Feb 22, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
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Doing a FA means it's your ROUTE;...not your ROCK.....(Public lands belong to the people).
Climbers have agreed to respect the wishes of the first ascent party on their ROUTE...(not their ROCK).
Todd, that's such a good distinction to call out.
We often use the "no one owns the rock" which is pluralistic, but usually any qualms is about a route (individualistic).
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 22, 2015 - 04:18pm PT
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In 1988 I did a route up at Courtright. The climb follows a very thin seam for 80 feet. On the first day I drilled four bolts from hooks. It was a long way from the fourth bolt to the top, but it looked like it got easier. I’d come back tomorrow to do the red-point.
The next day Julie Lazar and I stood at the base of our route. “Let’s call it Seamstress.” Julie is clever with words. “Yeah, that’s perfect, thanks.” I re-assured myself that the run-out at the top was easier ground. Then finally the seam enters a right facing corner where it looked like it would take wired stoppers. It was time to relax and climb.
5.11d past the first bolt to gain the seam. Up the seam for a few moves and the second bolt. Up and across the seam to the left on steadily harder moves eventually lie-backing the seam for several desperate moves to a good enough clipping hold at the third bolt. Here the angle kicks back a bit and I was confident I had it in the can. I climbed up, clipped the fourth and kept going.
Pretty soon I was way out there. Before me were two impossible looking high step rock-on smears with no hands. Rock up on the right one. High step the left pushing myself over onto it by smearing my right hand on the face. As I reached up into the bottom of the corner there was a flat hold about an inch wide and less deep. Latch, step up on nothing, there’s the locker. “Jesus.”
A couple years later I went back with a few friends including Herb Laeger and Jan and Rachel McCollum to have a look and show off my handiwork. At first sight of the route Herb and Jan pronounced me a lunatic, and would have nothing to do with the climb. Herb even hinted a slight bit of disbelief. “Do I detect a gauntlet being thrown? I’ll show you.” I began shoeing up. “Okay, I believe you. I just don’t want to carry your carcass out of here. I think we should add a bolt or two.” I pouted around for a while, saw the light, took Herb’s Bosch, hiked up to the top and rapped down adding two bolts to the upper section. We all did it and decided it was .12bR with the extra bolts.
It’s worth a go if you’re up at Voyager Rock. And you can scramble out to the anchor at the top to TR too.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Feb 22, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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Do as you wish, use common sense and your best judgement. You don't own the rock, but you have the right to create the best possible, in your judgement, climb. My personal preference, is to leave what I bolted on lead as is and to bolt lines I top roped a bunch before sending safely. I think lines that are worked to perfection on TR and than bolted with artificial runouts are kind of meh...but to each their own. Challenge yourself and use your common sense. And don't listen to me, I am a noob at this.
That is a great story Ksolem.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 23, 2015 - 02:41am PT
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Yesterday we rebolted a 1962 vintage route replacing the original single lead bolt and anchor bolts, on a pinnacle that is under cut on all sides and has one route to the summit. The lead bolt went in the same hole preserving the exact A1 or 5.10 start to slung knobs.
We have added bolts on some of our FAs for the same reason that Ksolem did on Seamstress. Others are left scary, same as they went up.
Make sure to leave some of your bold FAs "as is" to quiet the naysayers.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 23, 2015 - 03:29am PT
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Ksolem,
That is the point to take home from this thread!
Some who succeeded, some how suffered the pain!
Things , motivations, change, some times
Sooner some times later some times not!
But as the users must learn what they can do
It is better if they don't catch the chop!
Thankyou for taking that look at things!
Good on you !
Seamstress ! (.12b/c R)
Best Dressed, to the top!
I am all for Keeping things stout! - Tradition.!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Feb 23, 2015 - 07:47am PT
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Make sure to leave some of your bold FAs "as is" to quiet the naysayers.
Exactly what climbing should be about. Got to prove how bad ass you are to the other guys. There are sooooo many out there that give a sh#t you know... :)
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Feb 23, 2015 - 08:33am PT
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I agree with Todd, no one owns the rock, but for that very reason, I feel, everyone should collectively share and respect the rock. Not do subsequent squeeze jobs that are only clipping distance away from other routes, and look as though they had been put in with a tommy-gun, instead of a Bosch. I know Todd puts up beautiful routes, though, and with much respect, too.
When I first was learning how to climb, one of my older than me mentors would always remark, after the end of the climbing day, how the Rock Gods had let us survive another one. I would always laugh at his Rock God remarks, they had become like repetition humor to me. He would say, "No sh!t, I really do believe in Rock Gods! That's no Joke". Well, all I can say is after you have been climbing long enough you really do start believing in Rock Gods. I'm even starting to believe in Rain Gods!
Kris, just like you had written about, we've had our own little adventure or two. But, I think our adventures weren't nearly so burly as yours. Some of them we had gotten back and added a bolt or two, some of them are on our, "to do list". I think in the end, climbers who put up routes owe a responsibility to the climbing community to put up routes that are reasonably safe. Some routes can seem down right criminal, and in the end, have been really only like a stupid statement. It doesn't leave a good climb for hardly anyone, and has only been a selfish thing to leave for the climbing community, and do to the rock.
Right now it is snowing outside. Thank you Snow Gods!
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Flydude
Trad climber
Prather, CA
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Feb 23, 2015 - 10:17pm PT
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Two shoes you got it right
Glad to hear it's snowing up there.
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2015 - 12:44am PT
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Did I mention the route in question in 10+ miles from the road and accessible only when the river is sufficiently frozen for travel, and then only by those in the know (20-30 peps). Does this change anything?
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Feb 24, 2015 - 05:01am PT
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Retro the run-outs and I'll kill Ya!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 24, 2015 - 05:24am PT
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Hey Myles ya beat me to it . . .
I was gonna call this Post
Run IT OUT
thatis the way it is and was and always should be
stout !!
Cheers Mate argh!
Dood ,
this is meant in all due respect!
I think that yer routes are the best.
see how Some greats still out there have left the Show It is
because the Kids today outa the Gymz have no respect for the way we did it, risking our necks
they wear cracky gloves, and power drill old routes from the top down or whatever
and retro fit every thing they can get a power drill near.
I
agree with you that stout Is the best
don't stop the flow,
Climb hard and harder, no stop, no rest too,
To climb it is a verb, an all action word
No stopping till you get to the existing anchors ',
Do what you want to A route that you put in yourself
But AS Myles says, old dudes when er' we were young
We did it the best, climbed way up to that gear, that nut is truckstop!
(when there were 'star' drivens' we cliped 'em)
(flowed past, didn't think of weighting any of that siht!)
so go at it there the way that you find it.
Don't add a thing or leave any thing
or suffer the fate of a retro
bait fish??
All hail, Amy, Myles, and Andrew for Small Town Throw Down. 5.11 ao
Really? Be careful up on that one fa' sure!
check out the run into the Knobbs ! eey Ha!
Pitch Ten to the top: 340 or 400 feet!! 8 boltz runout!!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1222599&tn=0
Learn from the old !
when in doubt
RunIt Out! . . .
sorry it went away . . .throw it back up!
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couchmaster
climber
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Feb 24, 2015 - 05:48am PT
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Cavemonkey asked: "Leave as a sketchfest or make it a sport climb. It's quite good though I've already led it twice! Won't again but toproped it the other day and it was so good!! (Chossy mixed ice) "
Climb area, specific location and local consensus all matter.
*** You don't say what the particular ethics are of the area. That matters.
*** How difficult it is to troprope. If getting to the top is a difficult, steep, chossy, dirty death defying approach, then that matters.
*** After the 2nd or 3rd climber comes up to you and says: "I led your new route the other day and it sucked, you should add a bolt right XXXX (insert specific location) and then you notice nobody else doing the route, then you add the bolt. That matters.
Notice that nowhere on that list is giving 2 f*#ks what any anonymous f*#kwad on the internet says (like this post you are reading) who have never been to that area nor ever seen that climb (like the f*#kwad typing this - although when a good dude like Todd Gordon or good dudette like Tami shows up with advice with many FA's under his/her belt, you need to read those words carefully, however, note that they are not anonymous internet persons.
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Crump
Social climber
Lakewood, CO
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Feb 24, 2015 - 09:15am PT
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I have done literally hundreds of first ascents, ground up, hand drilled, etc. I have also retro-ed several of them over the years. We have also maintained and replaced the original bolts...
Almost all of those retros were done for specific reasons in the context of local requirements. I used a few criteria on these decisions and almost all were done through a community review and approval process.
For example at Enchanted Rock, I retro-ed Clockwerk Orange adding a 3rd bolt to breakup a 45 foot runout, ground fall. The reasons why were:
1) Mistake by the FA... I dirted my bolt kit not realizing that the runout was longer then it looked. I would have placed a bolt if I had my kit during the FA.
2) Multiple long falls with injuries. Enchanted Rock is a State Natural Area and access is always fragile. Accidents and injuries put access at risk. Same with Real Gravy as it had multiple 50+ foot falls and two broken legs...
These routes fell into a community-access based criteria.
Several other routes I retro-ed were climbs of easier grades that I had soloed. With such a limited resource as Enchanted Rock and a growing community of beginner and intermediate climbers, there is a real need for accessible and protected routes. Also when these climbs were soloed bolting was illegal and we faced a $500 per bolt fine if caught. Needless to say, bolts were only placed where absolutely necessary! These routes now are some of the most popular and frequented climbs in the park. I take great personal satisfaction from this.
Also due to limited resource, and through the community process I retro-ed a handful of my higher grade routes seeking a balance for both protected quality routes, and classic hairballs. These were often done in pairs. One route retro-ed paired with a classic that is preserved. For example, The retro of Real Gravy was paired with the preservation of the Gravitron.
The real point is that it is a local issue, governed by context, and should be managed within a community process. For me to have said, "No retros on my routes!" would have been incredibly selfish, and would have deprived the broader community access to some really excellent climbing.
That said, retro my preserved routes and die!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Feb 24, 2015 - 10:50am PT
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I think lines that are worked to perfection on TR and than bolted with artificial runouts are kind of meh
If bolted top down, then it's total horsesh#t.
If done ground up by someone that has rehearsed the route religiously, then yeah, also pretty much silly.
If done ground up by someone that may have rehearsed it once before on TR years prior? Same treatment? Hard for me to rationalize it one way or the other. Most don't care, but some do.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Feb 24, 2015 - 03:13pm PT
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Are there really people that think they're not allowed to change the routes they put up themselves? That seems weird.
Do all routes need to be made safe? Nope.
Is it selfish to make all of the best climbing at an area really run-out and essentially off limits to 99% of climbers. Yup.
Sorry, this comes up every time I spend a day on Moro Rock, carry on
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 25, 2015 - 06:32am PT
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Crump, nice.
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DesertFox
climber
Vegas
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Last fall my acquaintances in Flagstaff had a bit of a tiff over this issue. A couple young strong guys decided they were going to go back and add a few bolts to some of their very hard gear climbs that had sketchy gear, including marginal slider nuts (marginal for sliders that is, which aren't exactly inspiring to being with). I believe they had headpointed almost all these routes and decided they didn't want to leave a slew of lines that could be potential death routes for an onsight attempt.
One of their friends went off on them about bolting cracks and incited many of her (well known climber) facebook friends to join in the public bashing of these guys.
This excellent blog post was written in response to explain the issue. grassroutesclimbing.com/2014/10/14/change-of-seasons-change-of-mind/
Here is a route that is a good example of one of the routes that had bolts added http://www.mountainproject.com/v/pack-mentality/109565113
I think their approach is entirely reasonable and in face laudable.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Some routes can seem down right criminal, and in the end, have been really only like a stupid statement. It doesn't leave a good climb for hardly anyone, and has only been a selfish thing to leave for the climbing community, and do to the rock.
Seems criminal to think every route needs to be safe. If that is the case maybe they should all be flat.
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