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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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top ropes are legit FAs........and authors put top ropes in guidebooks because of this.
Often times there is a good reason why a climb is a top rope. Many times there is a lame-o reason for top roping a FA.
Here are some of the reasons why a climb is a top rope:
1. It's a squeeze job and not a candidate for bolting
2. It's a crappy climb and not worth bolting
3. The rock is "hollow" or too chossy for bolting
4. It's the decision of the FA to top rope instead of bolt
(this, I believe, is weak sauce, and if someone else comes along and wishes to "upgrade" to a lead climb;...I'm all for it;...leading is where it's at;...top roping is whimpy and luke-warm at best)
5. FA party is too lazy
6. FA party doesn't own a bolt kit
7. Fa party doesn't know how to bolt
8. FA party is greedy for FAs, but doesn't want to put in the work.
9. FA party is too lazy to hand drill
10. Our government, which has decided that fixed anchors on public lands (including in wilderness) is a reasonable responsible thing for climbers to do......has made all sorts of "clauses" that have limited or prohibited this sort of thing in our Nat. Parks and public lands,...so bolting and fixed anchors may be illigal or prohibited in your area and top roping the answer for now.
11. Some people are anti-bolt and think top roping is cool
12. The top rope route may be in a high use area with lots of visitors and bolts would look too "ugly" and put climbers in an unfavorable light.
13. There are petroglyphs or pictographs or some cultural site at or near the climb......
14. the climb is too short to bolt , but too long or bad landing to boulder, so just leave it as a top rope.
15. FA party did the top rope, planning to return to bolt, but forgot, ran out of time, or changed their mind.
16. There were no stances to stop and clip bolts, so just leave it as a top rope.
17. The route wandered around too much, didn't top out, had a huge loose flake,......and would be best as a top rope.
18. The base of the climb is water, or poisen oak, or a dangerous or hard to get to place....so just lower down and top rope.
19. FA party had limited time, but still wanted their FA.
20. FA party cannot afford bolts, hangers and fixed protection (if you are a dirt bad climber, and do alot of FAs..this is a real situation).
Anyways.....lots of reasons for top ropes. You decide which ones are "real" reasons in your eyes, or lame excuses for the top rope....
In my opinion, leading is the sh#t, where it's at, and what it's all about;...for me anyways.....
I also agree with Craig Fry;...if someone thinks one (or more) of my FAs is dangerous or done up wrong;..hit me up;...and i bet I'll agree that a "fix" would be fine and in order. I also agree with Tammy that just because you did the FA...you don't "own" the rock, route, or anything;..BUT, in the climbing "game"...us climbers have decided that, in most cases, the wishes of the FA party should be respected and that the vision and nature of the route remains as the FA party decides on;........(I think future generations , or even modern climbers, aren't always "impressed" with many classic lines done up "back in the day" with R or X ratings, leaving them "unattainable" for many modern climbers who climb and think differently now a days..and you can't really blame them either...)...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:02am PT
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Not buying any of your excuses. It was previously top roped by a bunch of wankers who did not have the ability to lead it. I came allong with that ability and led it. I get the FA they get to weep. Its kind of like the difference between haveing a date, maby kissing a bit but not getting past 2nd base or falling in love and have a great intimate relatinship. Of course some climb might be one night stands but you still have to get past 3rd base and in to home plate:)
We put up a climb called Tittys And Cake. a visiting climber told us that it climbed fast,dirty and fun. Just like a strip club.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:09am PT
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If you bolt up a top rope...do you get to re- name it?..( i say...maybe....)
If you free an aid climb;...do you get to re-name it? (I say yes;..because now the climb is a completely different experience....but it doesn't HAVE to be re-named...)..
Locker is correct;...the top rope "wanker" DID get the FA......they ascended the climb first.......whatever their guided or misguided reasoning is or was.....(shame, isn't it...)...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:13am PT
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not in these parts. Fa is an FA top rope is a top rope. I never would even think of reporting a top rope as an FA. I keep a lid on it untill I come back and climb it. Heck at rumny you don't even get credit for bolting,tope ropeing and equiping the climb and climbing it ground up with one hang. you don't get the FA at 14c A0 you get Zip or at the most a mention that you tried and failed. Some other kid comes allong and redpoints it and it goes in the book as the FA
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:20am PT
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If a top rope is a long established top rope with a common name and you lead it then I would say no name change. If someone top roped it and named it claiming an FA ( NOT) but it is not a commonly done top rope hence no name recognition then by all means name it when you get the real FA
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:21am PT
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Here in California, ANY ascent is an ascent;....top rope, aid, hang dog, shoulder stance, french free, pink point, brown point, califorina brown point, red point w/beta, red point without beta, solo, chalk, no chalk, back rope, pre-placed gear, bat hooks, ground up, rap bolted, ...........it's a climb and rock WAS ascended;......BUT;..just be totally honest with the style of ascent and what really went down.......It's a workable system which is based on integrity and honesty;.....works for us westerners 99.9% of the time....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:22am PT
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We have all kinds of silly rules in climbing that don't make sense. We make the rules on how the game is played. top ropes don't count hence no FA.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:26am PT
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So how about this
Are these cool and legit?
1. First female ascent
2. first winter ascent
3. first solo ascent
4. first senior ascent
5. first native american ascent
6. first american ascent
7. first gay ascent
8. first handicap ascent
9. first no chalk ascent
10. first foreign ascent
I still agree with locker........an ascent IS still an ascent;....no matter what good or poor style it is done in.....climbing DOES have all sorts of silly "rules" to the game.
I think out west...we have lots and lots of unclimbed rock;......in areas of limited routes and route potentials...the rules get more "defined" and strict....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:29am PT
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There are sport climbs @ rumny and elsewere that have been top roped dozens of times yet the only person who gets the FA in the book is the kid who finally leads it without a fall.
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John M
climber
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:32am PT
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First Italian accent ascent. You know the girls love those italian accents.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:33am PT
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I thought ken nichols chopped all the climbs at Rumney years ago...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:33am PT
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Ascent inplys you start from the bottom. Top ropeing implys that you start from the Top = No first ascent. none of that other sh#t means anything. the first person who starts at the bottom and climbs to the top without a rope from above gets the FA unless it is a sport climb in which case they have to actually get the climb free.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:39am PT
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Tradmanclimbs;....
If that is the way things go in Vermont;...good on ya!....I sort of agree with you;...that is the game I try to play......Start at the bottom and lead the climb without cheatin' or hanging......THAT is the real FA in my eyes......(the rest were...something else, weren't they..)...
(Locker is one of those "liberal" democrates;.......he thinks everything should be free and easy for all;.......This all started with the Kennedys;.....smoking pot in the White house, sleeping with movie stars, driving off bridges drunk;....THAT is what we get for putting an Irish Catholic in the White house!).....trandmanclimbs;....give up on him;.....those bleeding heart liberals won't give in;........they would just as soon give all our hard earned $ away to crack heads on welfare then to put it to good use with our schools or our defense budget.....besides;...he's an Obama-lovin Palin-hatin' glue sniffer too.....AND Locker live in Landers;...more real hillbillies in Landers then in West Virginia.....)..
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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TR FA=Popsicle in the sun
TR FAs are bogus. Snake oil. Chess where a pawn can move as the queen or knights.
Climbing will become gymnastics otherwise.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 21, 2015 - 09:55am PT
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If the TR is jugged by the partner of the historical TR FA first, does he get then get credit for the first aid ascent and the guy/gal who makes all the moves without weighting the rope get the FFA?
Ridiculous. I have played Scrabble with people like you TR FAers. Making up words.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:08am PT
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Clinker;....i know it doesn't make sense that the person who jumared and the person who lead and free climbed BOTH get the FA credit;...BUT;.......they DID both ASCEND the route...and the both are part of the FA PARTY.......that is my take on it anyways.
When I did FAs of multi-pitch stuff out in the southwest in the 80s.....sometimes we lead, sometimes we followed, sometimes we aided, sometimes we free climbs;..BUT......whatever we did, we were ascending the route, and the humans who ascended that route got the FA credit.......(I don't play scrabble either....)...I does sound alittle fishy, I know;...but think about;.......for stuff like that;..the FA "rules" cannot be so strict or defined.......
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:14am PT
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The top ropeing simply does not count. I never even in my wildest dreams have thought that I could claim an FA and name a climb by top ropeing it. If someone is top ropeing a project and they seem to have done nothing with it for awhile I will ask them if they plan on leading it or if they are through with it. If they say they are through then it is open project. I will then go ahead and do an FA and name it.
In ground up the first person to start at the bottom and climb to the top even with aid gets an FA. Supertaco Wars 5.10 A0 a subsquent attempt that goes clean becomes the FFA Supertaco Wars 5.10+
A climb that is cleaned and equipped top down as in a sport climb or a trad headpoint (top down trad go figuer) the only way to get an FA is to climb it clean. being the first to get a rap bolted or top down equipped headpoint with one hang does not give you the FA at 5.10 A0 it gets you diddly squat or pehaps an honorary mention as previously attemptng and comming close. The only way to get the FA of the top equipped sport climb or head point is to start at the bottom and go to the top clean. Top ropeing never even enters the equasion. It simply does not count. Quite simple actually.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:22am PT
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So Locker hooked up with this chick Rapunzel and got a FA in the process.
TR FAs are fairy tales.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:23am PT
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"There are sport climbs @ rumny and elsewere that have been top roped dozens of times yet the only person who gets the FA in the book is the kid who finally leads it without a fall."...
This is because the Rumny guide, like most modern guidebooks probably records the First Free Ascent rather than the First Ascent.
Technically you could top rope it free, but since you came in top down, it wouldn't qualify for a FFA. If however, it was the first time anyone had climbed that piece of stone, it would still be an FA.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:24am PT
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No because top ropeing does not count. telling me you had sex with someone because you got to 2nd base and the went home and masturbated would be just as dishonest as telling me you got an FA by top ropeing. top ropeing does not count therefore it is not an FA therfore there is nothing to report. If the the climb is an established populer top rope then that is worth reporting. Supertaco Wars 5.10+ a long standing top rope problem that was finally headpointed by a strong party from Californica.
Supertaco Wars 5.10+R FA Big Blue and Locker 2-21-15
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