OT "They've got us surrounded..."

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 21 - 40 of total 66 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
WBraun

climber
Dec 19, 2014 - 06:54pm PT
http://www.whale.to/b/starvation_of_germans.html

Like Bush II, Eisenhower deliberated created a new category of prisoners called Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF),
so he wouldn’t be bound by the Geneva Convention regarding treatment of Prisoners of War (POWs).


Eisenhower denied the Red Cross access to POW camps, as well as prohibiting them from supplying German prisoners food.
The British, US and French military also used German POWs as slave labor, despite formal Red Cross protests that this, too, violated the Geneva Convention.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 19, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
Does the Geneva Convention still apply when the war is over, and your side won?

I really don't know.

I do know the Russians didn't play by the Western Alliance rules.
WBraun

climber
Dec 19, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
You supertopo people love to whitewash everything to fit your USA is supreme over all.

Of course, that was illegal under International law, so he issued an order on March 10, 1945
and verified by his initials on a cable of that date, that German Prisoners of War be predesignated as "Disarmed Enemy Forces"
called in these reports as DEF.

He ordered that these Germans did not fall under the Geneva Rules, and were not to be fed or given any water or medical attention.
The Swiss Red Cross was not to inspect the camps, for under the DEF classification, they had no such authority or jurisdiction.

Months after the war was officially over, Eisenhower's special German DEF camps were still in operation forcing the men into confinement,
but denying that they were prisoners.

As soon as the war was over, General George Patton simply turned his prisoners loose to fend for themselves and find their way home as best they could.

Eisenhower was furious, and issued a specific order to Patton, to turn these men over to the DEF camps.

Knowing Patton as we do from history, we know that these orders were largely ignored,

and it may well be that Patton's untimely and curious death may have been a result of what he knew about these wretched Eisenhower DEF camps.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 19, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
What do think of the idea that is the main reason for the Normandy invasion? To meet the Russians at Berlin. Germany was already toast.

We invaded Normandy to help take the heat off the Russians. We wanted to do that from the beginning, it was Churchill who wanted to try kicking in the back door. He was trying to save the Empire. That's according to Rick Atkinson. His trilogy is great reading.

The Russians did the heavy lifting for years, we owed them.

Yep and then Eisenhower murdered them all .....

After Patton saw what the Nazis had been doing at Ohrdurf concentration camp he told his troops he didn't want them to take any more f*#king prisoners.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 19, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
Ike and bradly were actually pretty smart guys. Patton was a total a hole but got results. monty was a pompus ass who often did not get results. Ike recognized imeadiatly that the bulge was a gift and that the krauts had over extended and exposed their flanks. patton recognized the same thing and had his divisions moveing in the right direction before Ike asked him how long it would take to do so. My dad was in the thick of it and was wounded in the Ardens by potato masher Jan 5 1945 he returned to the line in febuary and fought through the Colmar pocket, the seigfried line and into germany to the end of the war. he crossed the Rine and Danub rivers under fire in daylight. A dairy farmer in VT who had no electricity on the farm. Hayed,cultivated,logged and sugared with a horse team, he went to Germany and was bombed by the first jet aircraft the world had known.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 19, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
anyone who thinks patton got knocked off because of knowledge of prisoner abuse smoked too much sh#t BINTD. No one gave a sh#t about treating a few krauts harshly in that time in history. Patton got knocked off because he ran his mouth too much and forgot who the boss was. patton wanted to continue the war and kick Stalins ass and he was not shy about expressing opinion in public.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Dec 19, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
Moosedrool: thanks for your reply, and I confess that I was indeed confused by your comment. My sincerest apologies, and please understand that I believe that the only decent thing that Stalin did in his entire life was to die. Lenin also hated him, for whatever it's worth.

As far as Stalin and Poland goes, if the one brief reference to the event that I read was correct, it appears as though the Soviets invaded Poland during the early twenties and Stalin was either in command, or at least a senior official of the attacking forces. The Poles handed them their asses and kicked the Soviet army out. If this is indeed true, then it is not difficult to assume that this loathsome little toad was more than capable of holding and nursing a grudge for his well-deserved humiliation.

I hope it is as clear as daylight that I am no fan of Stalin. One thing, however, that has never entered the equation when considering the death toll endured under his reign of terror is any comparison to the numbers of people who died under his predecessors. The Soviet Union was a primitive society ruled by cruel despots long before Stalin entered the scene, and I have yet to see a single objective reference to the number of innocent people who died before the revolution. It would be interesting to compare statistics.

The usually accepted death toll of Soviets during World War Two is 25 million, and 80% of ALL Nazi casualties occurred on the Eastern Front. The Soviet Union was also flattened twice by the Nazis during the war, and it is not surprising that the U.S.S.R. was in no mood to be nice guys. Whether us Westerners like it for not, we owe the Soviets an enormous debt of gratitude for their colossal contribution to the liberation of Western Europe.

The West (especially the U.S.) also owes an equally gigantic apology for its betrayal of Poland both during and immediately after the war.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
Well, as usual, I see we've gotten a bit off track here. At least it has
remained civil, for a change. In an effort to return to the topic I commend
Tradmanclimbs for his posts. Please note that I didn't say Eisenhower or
Bradley weren't smart, I said they were pussies. Eisenhower only made Bradley
Patton's superior because, as we say in the Navy, he was a loose cannon. When
the full extent of the German attack became clear Eisenhower hardly saw it as
an opportunity. When he called an emergency meeting only Patton said that
he could do anything. Nobody else in he room believed he could could mount
a counterattack in three days and the Brits present, smarmy toffs that they
were, even smirked and chuckled. It was, of course, beneath Monty, the tosser,
to even attend. Patton most definitely did not start his attack before he
was given the go ahead after this meeting. But being the consummate tactician
that he was he had made all his plans and set up three radio codes with his
XO so that as soon as Ike gave him the thumbs up all he had to do was make a
radio call and the righteous arm of justice moved.

When Patton and his men started their push they started hearing about the
massacres, Malmedy being the most egregious. It became clear that the SS
troops who spearheaded the attack had orders to take no prisoners so Patton
issued his order that no SS prisoners were to be taken. Joachim Peiper,
The Butcher of Malmedy, survived the war and his 12 years in prison for war
crimes. To add insult to irony he then took his family to France where
he became a writer. In 1976 French Communists set his house on fire and when
he fled the flames they shot him down like the dog he was. VIVE LA FRANCE!
reptyle

Trad climber
Kali
Dec 19, 2014 - 10:51pm PT
As our military has grown ever more dependant on technological advantages a salient point has forced itself into my thinking. If technology alone was sufficient to win wars, this conversation would be written in German and a great many of us wouldn't be included. The single greatesr advantage we had was the little corporal trying to run things out of his depth.
Germany, and by extension Japan, had a technological lead that included far more than mere jet aircraft. If they had applied those advantages, to say the Battle of Britain it is highly unlikely that there would have been a D-day. History might have been very different.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 20, 2014 - 06:40am PT
I have to dissagree Riely. When the meeting happened Ike was quick to realize the advantages and the opertunity to essentualy whipe out the werchematt. Patton of course recognized the same opertunity and allready had his troops in motion. When Ike asked him how long it would take to make the move he essentually said allready on it boss have em there in the morning. This had nothing to do with patton haveing big balls and Ike haveing small balls. they had different jobs. it was pattons job to kick ass and it was Ikes job to make shure he had enough gas and other supplies to get the job done and it was bradlys job to try and keep patton from doing something totally stupid. They were all couragous they just had different responsibilitys. If anyone in the picture was a pussy it was Monty. monty allways asked for the most resorces. he wanted the most gas, the most air support and control over the most troops and then he would tie it all up and sit there in stagnant formation complaining that he did not have enough to gain his objective.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 20, 2014 - 06:47am PT
Perhaps what you are refering to is Ikes obsession with supply. Ike did not want to outrun his supply lines and leave his armys hung out to dry which is of course exactly what hitler did on the eastern front and again @ the Bulge.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 20, 2014 - 08:34am PT
Tradman... major props to your Father...

I read some place that the best weapon of war, "was a pissed off 19 year old"...
there were certainly lots of them in the Bulge.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 20, 2014 - 09:39am PT
My dad was an old man at the time. 26yr old staff sgt squad leader.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2014 - 10:46am PT
Marlow, it is good of you to stand in for Locker, but we've already dealt with him.
Now, kindly return to your Åkershus lair.

edit:
Geez, Marlow! I didn't really think you would take me seriously! Komme tilbake!
And the Åkershus line was a joke! Really!
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 20, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
Re Werner's posts on this thread, that call Eisenhower a war criminal, who starved a million German prisoners to death.

As a student of history, I was somewhat astounded. I read Werner's link, then I read some links that completely refute his link.

Here's a long Wiki article on the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Losses

Alas, I forgot for a moment, how much Werner loves a good & wacky conspiracy theory.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 20, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
Reilly

I was in doubt when my OT OT post was posted on this OT thread, and when I'm in doubt, just a kind remark from you as the OP poster may make me delete. My decision. If I'm not in doubt, the post stays. Not so this time... ^^^^
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 20, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
Actually it is a very well known fact that our german POWs often got better food than the GI's up on the line. Twords the end most of the germans surrendering would keep saying Russians comming, russians comming and could not understand why we were not running in the same direction that they were.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Dec 20, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
Moosedrool: Thanks - I hope Santa brings you a particularly big bag of cool stuff for Xmas.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Dec 20, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 20, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
http://www.warriorlodge.com/blogs/news/16298760-a-french-soldiers-view-of-us-soldiers-in-afghanistan

Current,but still OT
Messages 21 - 40 of total 66 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta