Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 19, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
|
"...We've got them right where we want them." - US Army officer at Bastogne 70 years ago
this week. Perhaps the finest hours ever exhibited by citizen soldiers.
Eisenhower was a pussy. Omar Bradley was a bigger pussy. Montgomery was a treacherous
as#@&%e and a pussy. Thank God we had men like Creighton Abrams, George Patton, and
the American soldiers and airmen who followed them. Imagine your worst winter bivy with
inadequate clothing and equipment, not to mention the finest remaining Germans lighting you
up, for over a week and a half. Rough duty that.
My main question is: let's suppose the Germans managed to cross the Meuse River and even
seized Antwerp. How could that have reversed the war and saved the Third Reich? The
Russians would have continued their onslaught completely unabated and we would have
re-grouped and thrown back the Bulge within a few months at most. Granted, it did look very
bad for a while, and but for Patton it would have been much worse for much longer, but I don't
get subsequent historians making it out as tantamount to throwing us back off the Normandy
beaches.
|
|
guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
|
Locker... I disagree.
Super Topo has always had these these threads about important historical topics:WW1,Pearl Harbor etc. Interesting topics: F1, Cactus, Gardening, LSD, Music etc.
I think CMacs plea was to keep vile political sh#t- slinging topics contained to the vial political threads... Bad repubs etc.
So to answer Reilly.....
When I was a youth, back in 1967, I had a friend- who lived down stairs from my family, his father was Colonel A. Hess, who was a member of the 101 airborne. He was one of the dudes who went into Ste. Mere-Eglise, was superficially injured and played dead under his chute in till American Forces arrived. He was also at Bastone.
We lived at Patch barracks, in Stuttgart, HQ US forces Europe- that small base had about 25 Generals walking around. Whenever I went any place with my friend and his dad, these Generals would snap salute Col. Hess.
They showed maximum RESPECT to Hess because everyone knew just what he had done.
I was beginning to learn about real respect, for real heroes.
And Reilly.... The Nazis were beaten long before the Bulge and many military historians believe that it would have been better for the Nazis to have used these troops/equipment in the EAST, to sort of blunt the Russians.
But really, the Germans and Japs were doomed from the beginning.
|
|
HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
|
This is a great thread. Excellent timing. It reminds me that we used to have all kinds of history discussions.
I would say that if the Germans had defeated us in the Battle of the Bulge and crossed Meuse, and then taken Antwerp, it would have set back the war efforts for several months to at least a year. (I think that since this was the Germans last hurrah, that they would have lost anyway.)
More importantly though: The Russians would have gone much farther than Berlin before we met them, and we would have been looking at a whole different world order.
God bless the Greatest Generation.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
|
More importantly though: The Russians would have gone much farther than Berlin before we met them, and we would have been looking at a whole different world order.
What do think of the idea that is the main reason for the Normandy invasion? To meet the Russians at Berlin. Germany was already toast.
|
|
guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
|
Keep laughing, its good for the soul.
Keeps your face pretty :>)
Cheers Dude
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
|
I recall reading somewhere, that the German high command was convinced they could talk the western allies into some kind of reasonable end to the war, if they could just inflict one sound defeat on them. The thought continued that the western allies would then join with the Germans to fight the Russians.
Not an uncommon thought process among Germans. I remember Heidi's father, who was raised in a German-speaking household in N. Dakota, telling about the kid he beat up in grade school on three different occasions, and
"he still wouldn't be my friend."
Oh, and don't think of it as being surrounded and outnumbered. Think of it as a "target-rich" environment.
|
|
Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
|
Nuts!
|
|
DJS
Trad climber
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
|
The Panzer leaders were some of the best, and had the forward troops been able to capture just one of the petrol depots from the Allies things would have been nasty. The fighting would have dogged on.
That possibly would have given more time for factories to pump out the STG 44 and the ME 262.
Sure I'm stretching but.....
|
|
guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
|
Locker.... Im an eazy catch, all the shiny, fluttering, moving things passing overhead.... I can't resist bumping all the other fish out of the way in my desire to get the good food...
have fun
love ya man
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
|
The Panzer leaders were some of the best
I saw a bit of film once. A Panzer was out of gas at the edge of a huge open field. A group of about 5 Shermans was coming toward the German tank. They were at staggered distances to make them harder to hit, each shot being at a different range.
I think the Panzers at that late date had the feared 88mm gun? Anyway the Shermans were not shooting, presumably being too far out for their guns. The Panzer picked them off one by one, never missed once.
Really horrible when you think of those men in the tanks.
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 05:28pm PT
|
The Russian's were not going to stop until Berlin was in ruins.
|
|
HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
|
What do think of the idea that is the main reason for the Normandy invasion? To meet the Russians at Berlin. Germany was already toast.
-Ksolem
Hey Ksolem, I think we would have invaded Europe no matter what. And, I think the Russians didn't care about any agreements. At least not of those types. In the end, they/Stalin wanted as much territory as possible. They were never going to give any of it back without a fight. And, we knew it. At least that is how I see it.
Moose, your thoughts about Poland aligning with Hitler are intriguing. I had never thought about it. In all honesty, the "informed" and "educated" opinion of the day was that Hitler was not going to do what he ended up doing. Only a few courageous men stood up to what Hitler really was. Witold Pilecki comes to mind.
Thanks.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
|
The Russian's were not going to stop until Berlin was in ruins.
For sure, but I think they would have kept on rolling over Europe if we weren't there to meet them.
As the Russians approached Berlin the surviving German regulars ran en masse toward the American lines to avoid capture by the Russians. Anything but that.
I have a book called Armageddon Ost about the war on the eastern front. Lots of period photos. I got about halfway through it and set it aside. It gives me the creeps just seeing it on the bookshelf. The atrocities committed by both sides were unthinkable, and the Russians exacted fierce revenge on any Germans who survived to become prisoners.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
|
German regulars ran en masse toward the American lines to avoid capture by the Russians. Anything but that.
Yep and then Eisenhower murdered them all .....
|
|
Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
|
My old Division. They have some serious History.
Lame troll, Werner. Way Homo.
|
|
Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
|
Moosedrool: Normally, I have the highest respect for your opinions, but I must emphatically disagree with your suggestion that Poland should have allied itself with Hitler. That said, I am familiar with the Katyn atrocity perpetuated by Stalin as well as the many other outrages committed by the scum who served this evil man.
Nevertheless, you should be ashamed of yourself to say that it would have been a good idea for Poland to have been allied with Hitler. Hitler needed no assistance from Stalin to liquidate the Warsaw Ghetto, and one year later the Warsaw Poles again arose, but were overwhelmed by superior weaponry and numbers (admittedly facilitated by Stalin's cynical indifference to the pleas of the Polish Home Army for assistance) and, under Hitler's direct orders, Hitler's fascist hordes did an appallingly thorough job of LITERALLY levelling nearly the entire city of Warsaw, as well as massacring nearly all of the surviving (and unarmed) citizens who attempted to shelter from the fighting. These Nazi monsters committed satanic outrages beyond any concept of human decency as they murdered uncounted tens of thousands of innocent victims.
What makes your astonishing allegation even more appalling is the undeniable fact that Hitler considered the Poles to be sub-human - nothing better than vermin. He wasn't kidding when he coined the term "The Master Race" to describe him and his evil goons.
He would have laughed himself silly if Poland was so morally bankrupt as to attempt to forge an alliance with Hitler. Fortunately it wasn't, and Poland's massively disproportionate contribution to Allied victory has never been fully appreciated or even acknowledged by the Western Allies.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
|
The Russians were raping German women and nailing them by their hands and feet to carts for display during the Russian invasion...
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
|
Eisenhower is German for Nazi slayer...
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2014 - 06:36pm PT
|
C'mon Werner. That page is weird. If Eisenhower really forbade locals from providing food to the prisoners, it doesn't mean they weren't being fed. It just means he didn't want to lose control of the food chain and have all sorts of items being smuggled into the camps.
But beyond that, I highly doubt that the Supreme Commander would have troubled himself over such affairs. But it's on the internet so...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!