Discussion Topic |
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 19, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
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"...We've got them right where we want them." - US Army officer at Bastogne 70 years ago
this week. Perhaps the finest hours ever exhibited by citizen soldiers.
Eisenhower was a pussy. Omar Bradley was a bigger pussy. Montgomery was a treacherous
as#@&%e and a pussy. Thank God we had men like Creighton Abrams, George Patton, and
the American soldiers and airmen who followed them. Imagine your worst winter bivy with
inadequate clothing and equipment, not to mention the finest remaining Germans lighting you
up, for over a week and a half. Rough duty that.
My main question is: let's suppose the Germans managed to cross the Meuse River and even
seized Antwerp. How could that have reversed the war and saved the Third Reich? The
Russians would have continued their onslaught completely unabated and we would have
re-grouped and thrown back the Bulge within a few months at most. Granted, it did look very
bad for a while, and but for Patton it would have been much worse for much longer, but I don't
get subsequent historians making it out as tantamount to throwing us back off the Normandy
beaches.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
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Locker... I disagree.
Super Topo has always had these these threads about important historical topics:WW1,Pearl Harbor etc. Interesting topics: F1, Cactus, Gardening, LSD, Music etc.
I think CMacs plea was to keep vile political sh#t- slinging topics contained to the vial political threads... Bad repubs etc.
So to answer Reilly.....
When I was a youth, back in 1967, I had a friend- who lived down stairs from my family, his father was Colonel A. Hess, who was a member of the 101 airborne. He was one of the dudes who went into Ste. Mere-Eglise, was superficially injured and played dead under his chute in till American Forces arrived. He was also at Bastone.
We lived at Patch barracks, in Stuttgart, HQ US forces Europe- that small base had about 25 Generals walking around. Whenever I went any place with my friend and his dad, these Generals would snap salute Col. Hess.
They showed maximum RESPECT to Hess because everyone knew just what he had done.
I was beginning to learn about real respect, for real heroes.
And Reilly.... The Nazis were beaten long before the Bulge and many military historians believe that it would have been better for the Nazis to have used these troops/equipment in the EAST, to sort of blunt the Russians.
But really, the Germans and Japs were doomed from the beginning.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
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This is a great thread. Excellent timing. It reminds me that we used to have all kinds of history discussions.
I would say that if the Germans had defeated us in the Battle of the Bulge and crossed Meuse, and then taken Antwerp, it would have set back the war efforts for several months to at least a year. (I think that since this was the Germans last hurrah, that they would have lost anyway.)
More importantly though: The Russians would have gone much farther than Berlin before we met them, and we would have been looking at a whole different world order.
God bless the Greatest Generation.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
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More importantly though: The Russians would have gone much farther than Berlin before we met them, and we would have been looking at a whole different world order.
What do think of the idea that is the main reason for the Normandy invasion? To meet the Russians at Berlin. Germany was already toast.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
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Keep laughing, its good for the soul.
Keeps your face pretty :>)
Cheers Dude
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
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I recall reading somewhere, that the German high command was convinced they could talk the western allies into some kind of reasonable end to the war, if they could just inflict one sound defeat on them. The thought continued that the western allies would then join with the Germans to fight the Russians.
Not an uncommon thought process among Germans. I remember Heidi's father, who was raised in a German-speaking household in N. Dakota, telling about the kid he beat up in grade school on three different occasions, and
"he still wouldn't be my friend."
Oh, and don't think of it as being surrounded and outnumbered. Think of it as a "target-rich" environment.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
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Nuts!
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DJS
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
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The Panzer leaders were some of the best, and had the forward troops been able to capture just one of the petrol depots from the Allies things would have been nasty. The fighting would have dogged on.
That possibly would have given more time for factories to pump out the STG 44 and the ME 262.
Sure I'm stretching but.....
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 19, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
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Locker.... Im an eazy catch, all the shiny, fluttering, moving things passing overhead.... I can't resist bumping all the other fish out of the way in my desire to get the good food...
have fun
love ya man
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 19, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
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The Panzer leaders were some of the best
I saw a bit of film once. A Panzer was out of gas at the edge of a huge open field. A group of about 5 Shermans was coming toward the German tank. They were at staggered distances to make them harder to hit, each shot being at a different range.
I think the Panzers at that late date had the feared 88mm gun? Anyway the Shermans were not shooting, presumably being too far out for their guns. The Panzer picked them off one by one, never missed once.
Really horrible when you think of those men in the tanks.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 05:28pm PT
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The Russian's were not going to stop until Berlin was in ruins.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Dec 19, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
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What do think of the idea that is the main reason for the Normandy invasion? To meet the Russians at Berlin. Germany was already toast.
-Ksolem
Hey Ksolem, I think we would have invaded Europe no matter what. And, I think the Russians didn't care about any agreements. At least not of those types. In the end, they/Stalin wanted as much territory as possible. They were never going to give any of it back without a fight. And, we knew it. At least that is how I see it.
Moose, your thoughts about Poland aligning with Hitler are intriguing. I had never thought about it. In all honesty, the "informed" and "educated" opinion of the day was that Hitler was not going to do what he ended up doing. Only a few courageous men stood up to what Hitler really was. Witold Pilecki comes to mind.
Thanks.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 19, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
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The Russian's were not going to stop until Berlin was in ruins.
For sure, but I think they would have kept on rolling over Europe if we weren't there to meet them.
As the Russians approached Berlin the surviving German regulars ran en masse toward the American lines to avoid capture by the Russians. Anything but that.
I have a book called Armageddon Ost about the war on the eastern front. Lots of period photos. I got about halfway through it and set it aside. It gives me the creeps just seeing it on the bookshelf. The atrocities committed by both sides were unthinkable, and the Russians exacted fierce revenge on any Germans who survived to become prisoners.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
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German regulars ran en masse toward the American lines to avoid capture by the Russians. Anything but that.
Yep and then Eisenhower murdered them all .....
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Dec 19, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
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My old Division. They have some serious History.
Lame troll, Werner. Way Homo.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Dec 19, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
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Moosedrool: Normally, I have the highest respect for your opinions, but I must emphatically disagree with your suggestion that Poland should have allied itself with Hitler. That said, I am familiar with the Katyn atrocity perpetuated by Stalin as well as the many other outrages committed by the scum who served this evil man.
Nevertheless, you should be ashamed of yourself to say that it would have been a good idea for Poland to have been allied with Hitler. Hitler needed no assistance from Stalin to liquidate the Warsaw Ghetto, and one year later the Warsaw Poles again arose, but were overwhelmed by superior weaponry and numbers (admittedly facilitated by Stalin's cynical indifference to the pleas of the Polish Home Army for assistance) and, under Hitler's direct orders, Hitler's fascist hordes did an appallingly thorough job of LITERALLY levelling nearly the entire city of Warsaw, as well as massacring nearly all of the surviving (and unarmed) citizens who attempted to shelter from the fighting. These Nazi monsters committed satanic outrages beyond any concept of human decency as they murdered uncounted tens of thousands of innocent victims.
What makes your astonishing allegation even more appalling is the undeniable fact that Hitler considered the Poles to be sub-human - nothing better than vermin. He wasn't kidding when he coined the term "The Master Race" to describe him and his evil goons.
He would have laughed himself silly if Poland was so morally bankrupt as to attempt to forge an alliance with Hitler. Fortunately it wasn't, and Poland's massively disproportionate contribution to Allied victory has never been fully appreciated or even acknowledged by the Western Allies.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 19, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
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The Russians were raping German women and nailing them by their hands and feet to carts for display during the Russian invasion...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 19, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
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Eisenhower is German for Nazi slayer...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 19, 2014 - 06:36pm PT
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C'mon Werner. That page is weird. If Eisenhower really forbade locals from providing food to the prisoners, it doesn't mean they weren't being fed. It just means he didn't want to lose control of the food chain and have all sorts of items being smuggled into the camps.
But beyond that, I highly doubt that the Supreme Commander would have troubled himself over such affairs. But it's on the internet so...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 06:54pm PT
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http://www.whale.to/b/starvation_of_germans.html
Like Bush II, Eisenhower deliberated created a new category of prisoners called Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF),
so he wouldn’t be bound by the Geneva Convention regarding treatment of Prisoners of War (POWs).
Eisenhower denied the Red Cross access to POW camps, as well as prohibiting them from supplying German prisoners food.
The British, US and French military also used German POWs as slave labor, despite formal Red Cross protests that this, too, violated the Geneva Convention.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 19, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
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Does the Geneva Convention still apply when the war is over, and your side won?
I really don't know.
I do know the Russians didn't play by the Western Alliance rules.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
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You supertopo people love to whitewash everything to fit your USA is supreme over all.
Of course, that was illegal under International law, so he issued an order on March 10, 1945
and verified by his initials on a cable of that date, that German Prisoners of War be predesignated as "Disarmed Enemy Forces"
called in these reports as DEF.
He ordered that these Germans did not fall under the Geneva Rules, and were not to be fed or given any water or medical attention.
The Swiss Red Cross was not to inspect the camps, for under the DEF classification, they had no such authority or jurisdiction.
Months after the war was officially over, Eisenhower's special German DEF camps were still in operation forcing the men into confinement,
but denying that they were prisoners.
As soon as the war was over, General George Patton simply turned his prisoners loose to fend for themselves and find their way home as best they could.
Eisenhower was furious, and issued a specific order to Patton, to turn these men over to the DEF camps.
Knowing Patton as we do from history, we know that these orders were largely ignored,
and it may well be that Patton's untimely and curious death may have been a result of what he knew about these wretched Eisenhower DEF camps.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 19, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
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What do think of the idea that is the main reason for the Normandy invasion? To meet the Russians at Berlin. Germany was already toast.
We invaded Normandy to help take the heat off the Russians. We wanted to do that from the beginning, it was Churchill who wanted to try kicking in the back door. He was trying to save the Empire. That's according to Rick Atkinson. His trilogy is great reading.
The Russians did the heavy lifting for years, we owed them.
Yep and then Eisenhower murdered them all .....
After Patton saw what the Nazis had been doing at Ohrdurf concentration camp he told his troops he didn't want them to take any more f*#king prisoners.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 19, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
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Ike and bradly were actually pretty smart guys. Patton was a total a hole but got results. monty was a pompus ass who often did not get results. Ike recognized imeadiatly that the bulge was a gift and that the krauts had over extended and exposed their flanks. patton recognized the same thing and had his divisions moveing in the right direction before Ike asked him how long it would take to do so. My dad was in the thick of it and was wounded in the Ardens by potato masher Jan 5 1945 he returned to the line in febuary and fought through the Colmar pocket, the seigfried line and into germany to the end of the war. he crossed the Rine and Danub rivers under fire in daylight. A dairy farmer in VT who had no electricity on the farm. Hayed,cultivated,logged and sugared with a horse team, he went to Germany and was bombed by the first jet aircraft the world had known.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 19, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
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anyone who thinks patton got knocked off because of knowledge of prisoner abuse smoked too much sh#t BINTD. No one gave a sh#t about treating a few krauts harshly in that time in history. Patton got knocked off because he ran his mouth too much and forgot who the boss was. patton wanted to continue the war and kick Stalins ass and he was not shy about expressing opinion in public.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Dec 19, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
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Moosedrool: thanks for your reply, and I confess that I was indeed confused by your comment. My sincerest apologies, and please understand that I believe that the only decent thing that Stalin did in his entire life was to die. Lenin also hated him, for whatever it's worth.
As far as Stalin and Poland goes, if the one brief reference to the event that I read was correct, it appears as though the Soviets invaded Poland during the early twenties and Stalin was either in command, or at least a senior official of the attacking forces. The Poles handed them their asses and kicked the Soviet army out. If this is indeed true, then it is not difficult to assume that this loathsome little toad was more than capable of holding and nursing a grudge for his well-deserved humiliation.
I hope it is as clear as daylight that I am no fan of Stalin. One thing, however, that has never entered the equation when considering the death toll endured under his reign of terror is any comparison to the numbers of people who died under his predecessors. The Soviet Union was a primitive society ruled by cruel despots long before Stalin entered the scene, and I have yet to see a single objective reference to the number of innocent people who died before the revolution. It would be interesting to compare statistics.
The usually accepted death toll of Soviets during World War Two is 25 million, and 80% of ALL Nazi casualties occurred on the Eastern Front. The Soviet Union was also flattened twice by the Nazis during the war, and it is not surprising that the U.S.S.R. was in no mood to be nice guys. Whether us Westerners like it for not, we owe the Soviets an enormous debt of gratitude for their colossal contribution to the liberation of Western Europe.
The West (especially the U.S.) also owes an equally gigantic apology for its betrayal of Poland both during and immediately after the war.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
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Well, as usual, I see we've gotten a bit off track here. At least it has
remained civil, for a change. In an effort to return to the topic I commend
Tradmanclimbs for his posts. Please note that I didn't say Eisenhower or
Bradley weren't smart, I said they were pussies. Eisenhower only made Bradley
Patton's superior because, as we say in the Navy, he was a loose cannon. When
the full extent of the German attack became clear Eisenhower hardly saw it as
an opportunity. When he called an emergency meeting only Patton said that
he could do anything. Nobody else in he room believed he could could mount
a counterattack in three days and the Brits present, smarmy toffs that they
were, even smirked and chuckled. It was, of course, beneath Monty, the tosser,
to even attend. Patton most definitely did not start his attack before he
was given the go ahead after this meeting. But being the consummate tactician
that he was he had made all his plans and set up three radio codes with his
XO so that as soon as Ike gave him the thumbs up all he had to do was make a
radio call and the righteous arm of justice moved.
When Patton and his men started their push they started hearing about the
massacres, Malmedy being the most egregious. It became clear that the SS
troops who spearheaded the attack had orders to take no prisoners so Patton
issued his order that no SS prisoners were to be taken. Joachim Peiper,
The Butcher of Malmedy, survived the war and his 12 years in prison for war
crimes. To add insult to irony he then took his family to France where
he became a writer. In 1976 French Communists set his house on fire and when
he fled the flames they shot him down like the dog he was. VIVE LA FRANCE!
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reptyle
Trad climber
Kali
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Dec 19, 2014 - 10:51pm PT
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As our military has grown ever more dependant on technological advantages a salient point has forced itself into my thinking. If technology alone was sufficient to win wars, this conversation would be written in German and a great many of us wouldn't be included. The single greatesr advantage we had was the little corporal trying to run things out of his depth.
Germany, and by extension Japan, had a technological lead that included far more than mere jet aircraft. If they had applied those advantages, to say the Battle of Britain it is highly unlikely that there would have been a D-day. History might have been very different.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 20, 2014 - 06:40am PT
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I have to dissagree Riely. When the meeting happened Ike was quick to realize the advantages and the opertunity to essentualy whipe out the werchematt. Patton of course recognized the same opertunity and allready had his troops in motion. When Ike asked him how long it would take to make the move he essentually said allready on it boss have em there in the morning. This had nothing to do with patton haveing big balls and Ike haveing small balls. they had different jobs. it was pattons job to kick ass and it was Ikes job to make shure he had enough gas and other supplies to get the job done and it was bradlys job to try and keep patton from doing something totally stupid. They were all couragous they just had different responsibilitys. If anyone in the picture was a pussy it was Monty. monty allways asked for the most resorces. he wanted the most gas, the most air support and control over the most troops and then he would tie it all up and sit there in stagnant formation complaining that he did not have enough to gain his objective.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 20, 2014 - 06:47am PT
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Perhaps what you are refering to is Ikes obsession with supply. Ike did not want to outrun his supply lines and leave his armys hung out to dry which is of course exactly what hitler did on the eastern front and again @ the Bulge.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 20, 2014 - 08:34am PT
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Tradman... major props to your Father...
I read some place that the best weapon of war, "was a pissed off 19 year old"...
there were certainly lots of them in the Bulge.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 20, 2014 - 09:39am PT
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My dad was an old man at the time. 26yr old staff sgt squad leader.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2014 - 10:46am PT
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Marlow, it is good of you to stand in for Locker, but we've already dealt with him.
Now, kindly return to your Åkershus lair.
edit:
Geez, Marlow! I didn't really think you would take me seriously! Komme tilbake!
And the Åkershus line was a joke! Really!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 20, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
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Re Werner's posts on this thread, that call Eisenhower a war criminal, who starved a million German prisoners to death.
As a student of history, I was somewhat astounded. I read Werner's link, then I read some links that completely refute his link.
Here's a long Wiki article on the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Losses
Alas, I forgot for a moment, how much Werner loves a good & wacky conspiracy theory.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 20, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
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Reilly
I was in doubt when my OT OT post was posted on this OT thread, and when I'm in doubt, just a kind remark from you as the OP poster may make me delete. My decision. If I'm not in doubt, the post stays. Not so this time... ^^^^
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 20, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
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Actually it is a very well known fact that our german POWs often got better food than the GI's up on the line. Twords the end most of the germans surrendering would keep saying Russians comming, russians comming and could not understand why we were not running in the same direction that they were.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Dec 20, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
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Moosedrool: Thanks - I hope Santa brings you a particularly big bag of cool stuff for Xmas.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Dec 20, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Dec 20, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
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my uncle served in the army under patton. he used to tell a story of taking in german soldiers who were surending. patton asked him "why didn't you just shoot them. they are now going to go to a prison camp and eat three meals a day while you sleep in fox holes."
my uncle lost thirty pounds in the war. he was small to begin with.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
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Ike starved them to death and killed them all.
Fritz help him.
I found that info deeply hidden in the internet .....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 20, 2014 - 07:30pm PT
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I'm pretty sure you can find almost any info somewhere on the internet.
For example.. you can find references to a sacred kitten that actually controls the government of the USA all for the purpose of eventually planting little flowers all over the face of ElCapitan.
Why can you find this reference? Because I just put it there.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
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Exactly ^^^^
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 20, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
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Actually it is a very well known fact that our german POWs often got better food than the GI's up on the line.
I hard an interview of a veteran who was a black GI down at Ft. Hood. He said the German and Italian POWs pretty much could go anywhere they wanted on base. Places off limits to the black GIs.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 20, 2014 - 11:39pm PT
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Dec 21, 2014 - 12:48am PT
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The topic of history is okay but it seems that the choice of the decade leans to this WW2 rehash.
A far more relevant to climbing in the United States topic, is the history of the treatment of the Native people and the lands that they held sacred.
We should care and learn more about Sitting Bull who was a child climbing prodigy.
We all should care to hear more about the bad Cowboys who did 'Russian duty' for the U.S. army way before World War One and World War Two.
I also like the revisionist history that gets generated by wishful thinking that a saner world could have triumphed in light of some change that did not have a chance of happening.
Moose, can tell you, he will remember being told that everyone was getting killed. The Swells wanted the militaries to wipe each other out, killing as much of the population of Europe along the way as possible.
The goal for the participant in global conflict is??
this is locker ish, - this does feel good
WORLD D0MINATION!!
EDIT: I was just saying. . .
please carry on
the perspective that the Russian goal was anything less than total domination is wrong. Everyone knew it. Only Churchill? wrote anything that pointed to the dangers that an un checked Stalin posed?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 22, 2015 - 11:00pm PT
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Dec. 22 bump.
"NUTS AGAIN!"--Gen. A. McAuliffe
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 23, 2015 - 06:47am PT
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Bump for the brave soles who helped save the world. My last name is Goldsmith. If germany had won the war I would not be here.....
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 23, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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Brave soles? Yes, their feet were cold....
Reply to moosenazi on page one. Yeah, that sucks about Poland at the end of the war, but Better with an alliance with Hitler? That would not have worked out better for Poland, you'd have been an even bigger part of the genocide machine, and still probably would've ended up occupied by the Communists.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Dec 23, 2015 - 09:59am PT
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To the German Commander.
NUTS!
The American Commander
The American Commander did not curse and the Americans had to translate the meaning to the Germans. "In plain english? It means go to hell."
edit:
Take nutagain's suggestion, if you haven't already seen it, and watch the Band of Brothers program. There is an entire disk of interviews as part of the package that is worth the watch alone.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 23, 2015 - 11:02am PT
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When Patton and his men started their push they started hearing about the
massacres, Malmedy being the most egregious. It became clear that the SS
troops who spearheaded the attack had orders to take no prisoners so Patton
issued his order that no SS prisoners were to be taken. Joachim Peiper,
The Butcher of Malmedy, survived the war and his 12 years in prison for war
crimes.
So you are saying that Patton was a war criminal and should be referred to as a BUTCHER as well?
Frankly his behavior as a US officer was an embarrassment to America, and remains so. There is no doubt that he was a brilliant military tactician, but he thought of his troops as expendable widgets.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 23, 2015 - 11:07am PT
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Patton was an as#@&%e and completely insane but he got the job done.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 23, 2015 - 11:37am PT
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Patton
issued his order that no SS prisoners were to be taken.
Read the statement, No SS prisoners....
Tradman... did you see the movie Fury? It is pretty good.
One take away from that movie is this: if SS you die, on the spot, no questions. Other German Troops were handled differently.
We all owe more than we can ever repay to those man and women who sacrificed so much.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 23, 2015 - 11:38am PT
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I have to take issue with the blanket assertion that Patton was an azzhole.
He was an azzhole if you didn't do your job and/or he didn't respect you.
Most of the people who reported to him liked him because they always knew
where they stood with him. Yes, the famous slapping incident was deplorable
but quite the anomaly from what I've read. Patton was the only Allied general
that Rommel respected.
Guy, thank you. Patton accorded regular Wehrmacht prisoners honorable treatment.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 23, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
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Bastogne, Taffy 3, Iwo,...
When circumstances demanded it this country rose to the occasion with remarkable courage.
As for hypotheticals, if Hitler hadn't invaded the USSR and hadn't declared war on the US the following December, and if he had left the war to his generals, then Germany would have developed the first nuclear device and today would rule the world.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 23, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
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First page of a Patton poem.
THROUGH A GLASS, DARKLY
by Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.
Through the travail of the ages,
Midst the pomp and toil of war,
Have I fought and strove and perished
Countless times upon this star.
In the form of many people
In all panoplies of time
Have I seen the luring vision
Of the Victory Maid, sublime.
I have battled for fresh mammoth,
I have warred for pastures new,
I have listed to the whispers
When the race trek instinct grew.
I have known the call to battle
In each changeless changing shape
From the high souled voice of conscience
To the beastly lust for rape.
I have sinned and I have suffered,
Played the hero and the knave;
Fought for belly, shame, or country,
And for each have found a grave.
I cannot name my battles
For the visions are not clear,
Yet, I see the twisted faces
And I feel the rending spear.
Perhaps I stabbed our Savior
In His sacred helpless side.
Yet, I've called His name in blessing
When after times I died.
The rest there
http://www.generalpatton.com/quotes/index5.html
Not a simple guy, brilliant is a more apt descriptor than insane and definitely did not see his troops as expendable.
Christmas card sent on the 8th.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 23, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
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Brilliance and insanity go hand in hand. Just met a guy at the store in town 30 min ago who was wearing a vetran of the bulge hat. I talked to him a bit. He told me he was in the 30th division and was wounded and taken prisoner in the Ardens. he was pretty spry all things considered.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 23, 2015 - 01:38pm PT
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As for hypotheticals, if Hitler hadn't invaded the USSR and hadn't declared war on the US the following December, and if he had left the war to his generals, then Germany would have developed the first nuclear device and today would rule the world.
I'm not so clear on that.
I just read a book that took a comprehensive look at the Manhattan Project effort, and I was really surprised that I had no idea just how BIG the project was>
I don"t see how germany could have duplicated that effort>
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 23, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
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I just read a book that took a comprehensive look at the Manhattan Project effort, and I was really surprised that I had no idea just how BIG the project was>
Not only that, the project to build the B29 was even bigger,(originally conceived as a bomber to take the war to Europe without the availability of Brittan) then you had the production of everything from the M1 Garand, Victory ships, Microwave radar, the proximity fuse and on and on.
As large as the Manhattan project was, it was still a small fraction of the total wartime output.
When I served my apprenticeship one guy I worked with had the post war job of removing the silver bus bars from an aluminum smelter in Washington and replacing them with copper so that the silver could be returned to the US mint. Literally every available dime went into the war effort.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 23, 2015 - 02:00pm PT
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We're also lucky that Hitler was too stoopid to understand the potential of
nuclear research so it was a very low key project not helped when the
awesome Norskies blew up the heavy water plant in Norway.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 23, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
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Not sure how we could fight Hitler had he not declared war on us.
We could have easily just gone after the Japanese with tremendous fury, and just continued to supply the Allies.
Then Hitler drops some dirty bombs on London,...
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