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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 21, 2014 - 11:13am PT
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we can't always get what we want.
What if I am tired of repeating myself?
Not to you of course... we've not spoken in some time.
But what if telling you about my anything aggravates me more than you can even begin to realize?
If it was really really important....
WE WOULD ALL HAVE CLEARLY OBSERVABLE RESULTS TO SHOW IT
I like to think of it as a loving relationship... If it were a loving relationship.. we would have the results to prove it.. wouldn't you think?
I really care for the spotted owl kinda means that it comes with results.. otherwise its just words and feelings being through about as if they are the substance, the words are the real, when actually, you can't drink feelings, words do not sustain one's body.
Thought another way.. I say I want to save the spotted owl. You may think that it is important to me, after all.. I say it is.
I may even step up and do work to help with reclaiming their habitat and their environments.
I may be able to point to all of my great works, and all of my words as evidence of my placing importance on the spotted owl.
But, if you see me taking aim at a spotted owl with a long range, scoped rifle in some part of the woods... after hearing my heartfelt speeches, after reading my words... you would have to look at the situation with a new set of eyes... the same eye's that Dorothy had once she pulled back the curtain to reveal the truth... the reality of her situation... The reality of our situation.
At some point, when what we want to see starts to distort the world around us, we need to take a step back and ask, is our intent really the ideal? why is the ideal not a reality already?
The human mind takes long to make changes.. we may never find the results that match up with reality.
Dirt Claud - For some reason Jingys post reminded me of this.
 Right. If we say one thing... then it would stand to reason that the results would follow...
I'm the one with the problem... I keep failing to see the results.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Oct 21, 2014 - 11:13am PT
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I could be wrong but I think the blindness being refered to is metaphorical. I think what is being alluded to is the sense of vulnerability and uselessness that all of the participants on the Religion vs Science thread have felt since it was deleted out of personal pique at Dr. F.
A lot of us put our heart and souls into that thread (yes atheists have souls too though not eternal, according to them). We were dealing with many of life's deepest questions and we had all gotten to know each other very well. We had a community going and we had all learned a lot from each other. Almost all of us had evolved a great deal in our thinking on the issues. In many ways to those of us who participated, it seemed like the best of the internet.
To have that all wiped out in an instant without any consultation as to our wishes, leaves a huge empty existential hole. Some people have gotten mad and left or are trying to. Some are left depressed, thinking if one can't even communicate freely on a website supposedly meant for individualists, then what's the point of anything? Some of us are busy downloading all of our favorite threads that are left in case the whole website goes down because it's deemed not profitable enough or just too much trouble.
Once again, it seems to me that it has been proven that the real religion of America is money and the real high priests of the age are those who have it. And what's depressing to me at least, is how many people think this is the just order of things. Plenty for Jingy and the rest of us to be depressed about it seems. Meanwhile, back to the downloading.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 21, 2014 - 11:19am PT
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I sent Bob a personal message, but I want to say publicly that getting to "know" him better has been one of my great joys on ST. I certainly have known of him for many years, and admired his climbing, but I've gotten to admire his person, too. I didn't see his request as any attempt at drama, but rather a simple question.
If Bob leaves, I will miss him here greatly, just as I already miss Craig (Dr. F.), Jeff (fattrad) and so many others. Regardless, I'm grateful that all of you (and, given the discussion above, particularly you, Jingy) have enlivened the discussion around our virtual campfire. Thanks to all, and particularly to CMac, for giving us this venue.
John
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 21, 2014 - 11:25am PT
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Once again, it seems to me that it has been proven that the real religion of America is money and the real high priests of the age are those who have it. And what's depressing to me at least, is how many people think this is the just order of things. Plenty for Jingy and the rest of us to be depressed about it seems. Meanwhile, back to the downloading.
this is the closest to understanding I've read today...
But... again... I step back and fall into the rut of the well worn path of 'the order of things'.
So, how do we change the order of things?
I'm just one man, and I'm not even that much of a man... never was... again.. looking at my results.
Thanks to all, and particularly to CMac, for giving us this venue.
your place at the table will be set just for you.... then?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
And who cares who cares about it?
The key to understanding any of my anger:
And what's depressing to me at least, is how many people think this is the just order of things.
And the more I think about it, the more upset I can get:
Of we really wanted to educate kids, we would educate kids. What do we have... Oh, but wait... you might say "Americas kids are being educated."
Really?
America's the greatest nation in the world sounds strange to someone who is paying attention to the reality on the ground.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 21, 2014 - 11:45am PT
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Good one, Jingy. Maybe the tablecloth pull represents all of our places at the table.
45 years ago at Berkeley, in Physics 4A, our prof set up - and pulled off (so to speak) the tablecloth pull to demonstrate momentum, so I know it can be done . . . but maybe not with a virtual campfire.
John
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John M
climber
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Oct 21, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
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Once again, it seems to me that it has been proven that the real religion of America is money and the real high priests of the age are those who have it. And what's depressing to me at least, is how many people think this is the just order of things. Plenty for Jingy and the rest of us to be depressed about it seems. Meanwhile, back to the downloading.
My brain is very fuzzy today, so I hope that you will bear with me.
Jingy.. I wish that there was something that I could do about your situation. I know a bit about hard situations. I too have lost much of my health. What I hope that you will see is that you are currently dealing with some heavy depression that is keeping you from seeing the various shades of life. Life isn't all black and white, though at the moment you may feel like it is.
Jan.. I don't believe that this particular situation on the forum is driven by money. To me its more about time and freedom and not wanting to have to take responsibility for what one has created. Plus it is in part about expectations. I believe Chris hoped that we could be adults about how we communicate. Perhaps he was a bit naive. Yet what does he do if he doesn't really want to put the time into policing this place? Hand it over to someone else? Then he has to police them. I think he was hoping that he would have to do very little policing.
With Dr F. I don't believe it is a simple as he tries to paint it. I think the admin got tired of dealing with him. He has issues with obsession.
As for how they dealt with him. This is where I believe they made a mistake. Perhaps they need to fix the code so that whole threads aren't lost when someones account is removed. There should be a point after which a thread doesn't belong to a person anymore. It belongs to the whole who have helped create it. At leasts thats my opinion. Perhaps thats what we need a thread about.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 21, 2014 - 12:11pm PT
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Jan
Oct 21, 2014 - 11:13am PT
I could be wrong but I think the blindness being refered to is metaphorical. I think what is being alluded to is the sense of vulnerability and uselessness that all of the participants on the Religion vs Science thread have felt since it was deleted out of personal pique at Dr. F.
Yes and no... you see... a step back from blindness... what is it then...? it's hard to explain without putting a human face to it and I can no longer stomach doing that any longer... The attention would be futile.
Vulnerability? - Yes - That is one thing.
Meaninglessness? - Yes - I have come to realize this as fact... though I still have work on accepting the full ramifications of this fact.
John M. - Jingy.. I wish that there was something that I could do about your situation. I know a bit about hard situations. I too have lost much of my health. What I hope that you will see is that you are currently dealing with some heavy depression that is keeping you from seeing the various shades of life.
Being a certified clinical psychologist I can appreciate your clinical opinion here on the ST Forum? Do you also write prescriptions with giving your opinions on the health of other supertopo members? Would you be upset if I leave it at that as what it is? I know you know loss of health... no, wait.. I say I know you know loss of health... but I'm not completely sure you understand 'my' situation of loss, so I hesitate... step back... and read this as just another human being (just like me and I'm not smart at all however well-intended I may feel at any time) posting their thoughts to a forum that I frequent... by choice... and nothing more.
The rich man cannot with any real sense of the word 'know' the ultra personal depths of poverty and the despair that comes with it until they have been without for some time.
The gifted musician will never truly understand deafness until they are deaf.
Not seeing the different shades would be the rich man emptying his wallet and claiming to know poverty... it has in no way pervaded the rich man's every moments thought... "how am I going to eat with no money? How will I pay rent/morgage/utilities with no money?"
These are not concerns for the rich man... how can they be?
All of that is based on:
Life isn't all black and white, though at the moment you may feel like it is.
What if I told you that I say you are wrong?
What is the biggest dichotomy you know of? And don't tell me you can't think of one, we live them daily: Life and death?
You are either alive or you are dead.
The only grey I can think of is the time between heart/brain seizure and resuscitation to life... and that's not always a given. Like the new definition of life is never going to include those moments we are struggling for life as or after our hearts and brains stop.
Fact is... I thought I knew a lot about the human body until I found out how little we (humanity) know about the human body, then I realized I knew very little about how little we (humanity) knows about the human body... How could I have ever thought that I knew anything about the human body in the first place?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Oct 21, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
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Agreed John.
My point about money is this. Contributor after contributor has remarked that "they" own the site and they can do whatever they wish so just get over it. And some people are mad enough about what happened that if they had the money they would start their own site. Since they don't, we're stuck, so money is part of the issue here whether that was the original intent or not.
As for Dr. F, he and I clashed on numerous occasions so I know how difficult he could be. Still, he made me think about my positions and many others, and sharpened our thinking as a result. Personally I will miss him, contrarian that he was. Then again, I miss Rokjox who also irritated a lot of people. Maybe this tolerance for extreme individualism is a hallmark of the past, a legacy of the Golden Age now far away. Who knows?
I do believe there ought to be a better way of deleting people and not whole threads. This happened in the past, why not now? Too much time and effort or a different computer program?
And finally on the subject of money, it seems to me the owners of this site will in fact notice that traffic is down with the elimination of the controversial threads and in retrospect appreciate Dr. F's contributions to the bottom line at least.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 21, 2014 - 12:27pm PT
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I appreciate your presence here, Jan.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Oct 21, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
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Please do not let this thread disappear. There are some very moving and poignant posts. I'm limited to my fingernail sized screen for a bit longer and I can't really read and process all of this.
Gosh I wish we really were sitting around a real campfire right now. Some beautiful reflections and introspections.
Susan
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John M
climber
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Oct 21, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
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And finally on the subject of money, it seems to me the owners of this site will in fact notice that traffic is down with the elimination of the controversial threads and in retrospect appreciate Dr. F's contributions to the bottom line at least.
I think that what some people have been trying to say is that these conversations will go on because if enough people still want to talk about these subjects, then someone will start a new thread. We already have the thread started by Dirtbag on Politics. And John Long has said that he will start one on mind. so the conversation can be continued.
In my opinion what is really lost are those thoughts and links that were brought out by that conversation. Though to me the reality is that few will actually go back and look for them. I understand that you are one of those few and I don't' discount your desire. In fact I hold it above most others here, which is in part why I support changing the way the admin deletes peoples accounts. If that is possible. So that whole threads aren't lost.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 21, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
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Maybe this tolerance for extreme individualism is a hallmark of the past, a legacy of the Golden Age now far away. Who knows?
Sad to say, I suspect you're right, Jan. Those of us who grew up under the philosophy that "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" still got hurt by words, of course, but we also acquired a thick enough skin to deflect all but the sharpest darts. That probably made it tougher for others to really offend us, thus giving us greater tolerance for opinions expressed with more passion than discretion. Besides, we grew up celebrating individualism.
At least for me, I already know what I think, and would be terribly bored if all I read were posts with which I agree. It doesn't mean I don't greatly appreciate those rare posts that agree with my view; rather it means that I treasure also those posts that challenge that view. If those expressions happen to be particularly "individualistic" (I use quotes because I suspect we use that term euphemistically), it seldom bothers me.
I doubt many on this thread care, but I think Prov. 14:4 has great general application: "Where there are no oxen, the manger is clean, but great increase comes form the strength of the ox." If you want to get worthwhile results, you should expect some messes along the way. If we keep our conversations neat and clean, we may not get as much out of them.
John
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Oct 21, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
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Don't be too hopeful about this thread sticking around if Bob gets all his stuff pulled.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 21, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
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John Long has said that he will start one on mind. so the conversation can be continued.
not that I'm being critical... but are you sure you want that? Not sure why, but the word 'bullied' comes to mind when I think on the Mind thread contributors who had previously ventured over to the Politics/Religion/Science thread...
Talk about an imposition...
The ultra-schooled, ultra-knowing, highly concentrated, thinking for thinking sake types of discussions going on there... and don't try to simplify anything you are trying to gain understanding of...
It's how things are... and there is no sense in bringing that up... ever.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 21, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
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Who has the most Quality first ascents among the supertopeons??
bet this guy is near the top of the list!
I mean this in a kind way, jingy the guy in yellow belowVVV
was almost blind look closely at those coke bottle bottom lenses
Big resturant bob you know these two fo' sure
smiles for at least seeing that we luv ya
don't go!!
jumped the shark again
I can not tell you any thing except that I too am way run out, past 60 feet, on polished rock that is a constant 70 degrees and only gets steeper the farther I go above three #2 HB brass offsets in a flare.
I feel the poverty and share it .
so excuse me but we all share trials many end it some defend that choice. i do not .
That a thread about boltin' Bob the Phili flyer is thus hijacked means you do not know the Man.
He works non stop I am sure. He always has and (as I said) is working in a hot NM kitchen right now !
pick a different line, thread, site, to cry into the wind on.
Lets keep the real ones wanting to show up here.
This is not the way to go about that.
Go find C. Frye his old pals have recently died.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 21, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
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Susan, you are right. This thread has turned from a resignation into a doctorate. Hope it will last!
I'm not down loading anything tho. The reason, for me and where I'm at in life is the last 7 years have taught me nothing is lasting or permanent. You can take all the steps to safeguard your life financially and physically but at any moment the entire (every inch) rug can be pulled out from under you. You can be helpless to do anything due to the circumstances of life and the situation.
So, I'm trying to let go and simplify. This is a real challenge for me but I'm making small steps in the right direction. There are only a few really important things in life, "the clutter" can be a roadblock in achieving these.
Most important, I feel, is to wake up and live the day (I have my best friend jesus to help me) and to love and listen to those that make an appearance in the day.......and of course to follow your dreams, eat right and exercise. Love and Joy from lynnie trying hard to pursue the dream.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 21, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
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Locker, we should make an ST climbing, put up a fence party/weekend/BBQ.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
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All the old over the hill girly men are leaving.
Not tough guys like us ......
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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Oct 21, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
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Sorry to see you go Bob, one less Gunks/Colorado climber in this mix.
Good luck wherever you end up and dont forget to keep the locals up to date on your next art show.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Oct 21, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
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Locker, we should make an ST climbing, put up a fence party/weekend/BBQ.
You should all just come to Moab within the next couple weeks and we can sort this all out with the local Moab ST crowd. Call it a retreat or something where we can sing that koom bye ya tune. Or better yet, in the true Taco spirit, just call it Halloween.
Susan
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