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John M

climber
Oct 21, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
Hey Jingy..

This is probably a bit of a mess because my brain isn't working very well today. I hope you can forgive me if I say something insensitive or as though I know everything. I know that I don't.

I don't know exactly what you are going through. Without being you, I can't. Yet I can to some degree understand the kinds of loss and pain you are experiencing as I have also lost and am losing things I hold dear.

As for my comment on shades of gray. It appeared to me that you were saying that because certain things, like poverty, still exists, that it means that man does not care. Please forgive me if this is not what you meant. I would agree to some extent that it is an indication, yet it doesn't mean that all men don't care. I know that I did. One thing I can point to that would show that would be that I helped build an orphanage in Mexico. And I have other things I could point to. Yet the problems I was trying to address still exist. So was my act worthless? I don't believe so. However small it was, it still impacted some lives. So there is worth in what I did and proof that some do care. Thats in part what I meant by black and white. It seemed to me like you were saying that no one cared. And like you were saying that if they cared, they they would be there 100 percent for you. And what I am saying that is they could care, yet not be able to be there 100 percent for you.

Caring doesn't mean that one can necessarily fix a problem. People care very deeply for me, yet I am still dealing with some very difficult things. Things that they can't fix. For instance it is very possible that one day I will commit suicide. I struggle daily with depression, and often it gets the best of me. I say that my friends care because they show me that they care. Sometimes going very far out of their way to help me. Do all of them get it? No.. they don't. In fact I have lost friends because I couldn't fix my self the way they thought that I should be able to. And I have stopped attempting to be friends with others who have said cruel things to me because I couldn't do what they thought I should be able to do. Not everyone on this planet is good. And those who are good are not all powerful. My friends can't fix me, and yet they can still care. And So can your friends. If you let them.

I don't say that lightly because right now I am struggling with just how much help I am willing to take. Currently I am homeless and mostly living out of my vehicle. A vehicle that is falling apart. These past few days I have been staying in a hotel because I got tired of not having a shower. Plus some of my physical issues flared up which make camping very difficult. I haven't said anything to most of the people that I know because I didn't want to have to accept help. It is deeply embarrassing to me to need help. I have always been very independent. So it is painful to me to be in this condition. Plus help sometimes comes with its own set of problems. I've grown tired of seeing the disappointment in someones face when they give me some help and it doesn't fix the problem. I often can't meet their expectations, so I say nothing.



I feel like I am revealing too much. so I will close.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Oct 21, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
Ahhh, JohnM. Written from the heart and the word profound applies. Thank You!

There is so much pain and suffering in this world, this life. Yet, there are wonderful, small things that happen to us each day if we look carefully.

I can't solve all the problems, provide answers or alleviate pain. But someone did this for me many years ago and that's why I'm still here and not dead in a gutter from a drug overdose. It was my best friend, jesus. I know he's real, he cares more than any human and if you become close friends with him your life will be touched and changed. He has answers and provides help.

I'm not trying to evangelize or anything else. Just offering an answer that worked hugely for me. Hey, it's worth a try if all your own efforts have failed. And I'm not directing this at you Moosie. It's for people that have reached the end of the rope. Something I have experienced several times in my lifetime.

Special Hugs to you and Jingy today, as well as Scott C.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 21, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
Yet I can to some degree understand the kinds of loss and pain you are experiencing as I have also lost and am losing things I hold dear.

 John. No offense has been taken. Even if I fly off the handle and capital letter everything I write... I still am not offended.

But... this statement stands out as straight away... off the track of understanding...

Of course, I'll give you the "to some degree" understanding loss and pain... in that you have lost something in the past and you have experienced pain in the past...

Just know that knowing what I know now, through my experience, I can assure you there is no comparison between today and the life I before I knew what this feeling was.

I hesitate to get to personal again... I know all to well the hardline manly men that sit on this board who wait for personal sh#t to come out to jump on and humiliate with indifference of a hungry shark... I need that like I need a hole, you know?
I also hesitate to name the disease again... I may have mentioned it some time ago, but I fear that just having a name doesn't give this thing any legs... you cannot know what you have until it goes away from you...

I give it a name - People get the name and form a picture of the disease... That picture is the only picture they have now whenever the name of the disease comes up.

That is unfair to everyone involved...

but it is what it is....


more in a minute


Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 21, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
John M. No offense taken, ever. No matter the tone of my writing


So was my act worthless?

I don't believe so.

However small it was, it still impacted some lives.

So there is worth in what I did and proof that some do care.

That's in part what I meant by black and white.

It seemed to me like you were saying that no one cared.

And like you were saying that if they cared, they they would be there 100 percent for you.

And what I am saying that is they could care, yet not be able to be there 100 percent for you.

 Wow. You are right that there may be a misunderstanding here...

I've never wanted people here for me? I'm not asking for ST to solve my problems.
I'm not even looking for a partner to run up this route with me...

It's become a completely different discussion now...

I'm tired of explaining, even when I never explain a thing.

In explaining, I will need to break things down and explain too many things to really leverage any understanding from anything I've written at this point.


sorry, I may be done for the day if I don't think of something else.


Caring doesn't mean that one can necessarily fix a problem.

 If the problem was getting water into your fields after planting... it could help if the soil were also fertile and that there was ample sunlight for the entire growing season... Otherwise.... yes... it is futile.
Planting seeds on moving soil, or irradiated soil will also be useless.



John M

climber
Oct 21, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
Hey Jingy.. I never meant to imply that you were asking for help here. I was trying to get to the root of what I see that I define as black and white thinking in your writing. That is all. And I was thus giving an example from my own life that would illustrate a kind of black white thinking. But I can see that I'm not communicating very clearly. I apologize. I will probably delete my post above as it reveals a bit too much. The internet is not a good place to reveal very much about ones self.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Oct 21, 2014 - 05:04pm PT
Wow. Jingy- keep calm and kick back. We all have bad days.

Cheers.

All the old over the hill girly men are leaving.
Does that mean I have to leave?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 21, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 21, 2014 - 05:12pm PT
The internet is not a good place to reveal very much about ones self.

 True.

It seems I too suffer from the inability to effectively write what I mean.

The smart guy never knows the troubles of the dumb guy just as the dumb guy never knows the weight of multi-million dollar deals that take place everyday.

johntp -
Wow. Jingy- keep calm and kick back. We all have bad days.

 Where is there any excitement in my writings?
I'm the dummy here...

My post from earlier today that kind of started this all off for me today...
Oct 21, 2014 - 09:06am PT
(Please know that this is all well intended drivel. If there any objections while reading this drivel (I often wonder why anyone would read this drivel at all) just take a step away from the situation so you can see a little bigger picture... so that reactions are not all you succumb to)

catch me up on wat up wit yo.

as much as this sounds like a great invitation for some story telling and heartfelt discussion about life's ups and downs... unfortunately there is no life to discuss... therefore I will not be emailing you to reconnect.

Lynne, I'm not the Jingy you met all those years ago... my mind and body have changed... it is all out of my control. Please do not be alarmed.

I have lived a life of what I was calling connection....
I believe, now, that there is no connection... at least none tied to me... no matter how wrong that sounds...

Blindness in old age cannot be willed away.
Blindness in old age cannot be bootstrapped to 20/20.
You cannot hunker down and rebuild from blindness.

How is my condition different? And how much do we really want to hear about the ups and downs of the blind "yeah, we know, you can't see... Heard that... you got anything new?"

What if I have nothing new to tell?

What if you could look back at the pages and posts on this website and have a full record of my "Life" and how its going...?

What if the words you posted to this forum were your only avenue for expression in any meaningful way for you? What kind of connection would you feel to the community if, on the whim of another human being, your only means of expression... or.. that which you have expressed was taken away? Removed?

What if... when you look back at your life you see example after example of life treating you in this same unquestioning indifference to your concerns... maybe unfair... as if your words don't mean a thing... as if your feelings don't mean a thing.

I have to accept this as reality. My words mean nothing. My thoughts mean nothing. They never have. They have always been under an illusion of a future and an importance when there wasn't any to begin with...

In my case... I know I am right.

On a side note, I just thought of a good reason to not post anything thoughtful to this website at all. Nothing I post on the site matters. Your/My words mean nothing and they can/will be removed. Don't ever think it's going to be different. Don't ever think that you can change any of these things.

This site is no site of record.


Edit - The more I think about it, the more everything points to my illusion that what I write/think/say is of any importance at all. Knowing is the key to the battle... Don't think for a moment that your words have any meaning to anyone other than the emptiness within and you will get along just fine in this life.

 Pity Me?

Not quite... At least none intended. Maybe I'm just upset at the loss of time and energy spent posting to the indifference of the internet. And then being somewhat ashamed at the fact that I fooled myself into thinking that writing here on the topo has significance.

Maybe all this screaming in the woods is doing me some good after all, huh?

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Oct 21, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
John and Jingy.....you are Wrong. You both write beautifully and get your ideas across Very well. I understand if you must delete your posts, but they were as clear and honest, straightforward and brave (without whining) as I have ever heard. Thank you both from the bottom of my heart. Lynne
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 21, 2014 - 06:12pm PT
hey there say, all... so many thoughts and shares from everyone...
i don't know if i fit in here, as to my reactions, of it all...

but, i can say this, people here, make the whole place special...

like in the woods, etc...
each wooded, meadowed, rivered, etc, area, is special in its own right, by what (meaning who, in this case) is there, --sharing itself and the seeds from it-all...


as to the posts, thoughts, and hard work, etc, shared, in the past, that might get lost (whether at the taco, or other forums:

well, i have a way that works for me, as to keeping-hold of things... things that either stay, or fade away, whether physical (things that we keep, in the world), or words (that we view, that others post, or, hear, that others say)...


when i was younger, i was extra sentimental, and tried to save many things (can be extra hard on the emotions, at times)... but, when they got lost, or old, or damaged by nature, etc, (or as in south texas--by roaches or mice) there was a larger sorrow for the losses, as they were connected to those emotions--emotions that cared for either myself, my family, or my friends, or others that i connected with...


well, over time, i saw ALL THESE things that did enrich me (or that do enrich folks) as if this:


FLOWERS...

flowers are planted either by many hands, or by ourselves...
or flowers, even grow wild...

i can love and enjoy them at the moment that i SEE them, or, after i search for them... some fade and gone, even though i had loved to
continually see and smell them...

others, were taken-down too early, either by storms, mankind's damage, or eaten by critters...


yet--by keeping the experience and treasure, in my heart, they were always mine, to use, learn by, or simply enjoy, and be grateful for...



some flowers, could actually be picked, and even kept and pressed, and lasted longer, though in different ways... yet, in time, they too, could fade, or fall apart... yet, i savored them in in THOSE ways, and reflected longer, yet-again, for but a season...


all the words, shares, love, and learning, that i see and enjoy here, or from my loved ones, or that i glean elsewhere, from talk, phone messages, letters, or cards, or emails, i try to see as it they are FLOWERS...
flowers that i was blessed to draw near to me, yet:
i do not overstep as to the garden-of-life, to get them to be more than they can be--i enjoy them for what they have done...


well... it works for me, but i am not sure if it works for others, so i am not sure if i really fits in here, but:

just thought i'd share...
since so many of us are sharing, as--we DO treasure what others have posted
and present on this forum...

so, as, i have enjoyed so much from many, here...
i wanted to let you know, that in some ways, much of it is not really lost:

it is in our hearts or spirits...
AND on occasions--perhaps forgotten--but: i reckon the words of many, DO surface, when certain subjects 'trigger' them... TIME, is the teller, as to that...

and when it happens, it is meaningful, then, that they are to us...
perhaps in the same old ways, or, perhaps even in new ways, and,
the folks that shared those things, also:

are not really forgotten,
though they made FADE from our wooded area...


enjoy each flower, while you can...
HERE, there, or anywhere...

:)



*say, i think i will 'pick' this FLOWER, and reflect on it a bit, by copy and past, hee hee--and then, let it fade, a bit later... :)



edit:
oh, i have just seen that the subject, moved on into a few other faucets, from the other part of the posts, that read here...

you may have to backtrack, to see how mine fits in, here...
:)


edit:
oh, say, lynne... from your quote:

I'm not down loading anything tho. The reason, for me and where I'm at in life is the last 7 years have taught me nothing is lasting or permanent. You can take all the steps to safeguard your life financially and physically but at any moment the entire (every inch) rug can be pulled out from under you. You can be helpless to do anything due to the circumstances of life and the situation.

So, I'm trying to let go and simplify. This is a real challenge for me but I'm making small steps in the right direction. There are only a few really important things in life, "the clutter" can be a roadblock in achieving these.

Most important, I feel, is to wake up and live the day (I have my best friend jesus to help me) and to love and listen to those that make an appearance in the day.......and of course to follow your dreams, eat right and exercise. Love and Joy from lynnie trying hard to pursue the dream


say, lynne, life and situations, as you say, and changes, etc,
yes, it is important:
'take the appearance-things, of each day' ...
cherish for what they are, i can understand what you mean...
perswig

climber
Oct 21, 2014 - 06:26pm PT
DMT

Life is a train wreck and a passionate blessing of the universe of nothing.

Never let a day go by.

Jim Brennan

How much more can one take ? All of it.

It's OK to be troubled and depressed about what your life has become. It's like being caught in a wave pattern sent from the ocean your brain is. Take it mathematically and physically. You are still you, even if it seems your friends have given up.

How much do friends owe you and why ? Maybe they have only so much to spend on other people and need to take care of themselves, ultimately.

How many times have you resisted the waves of guilt and anxiety, only to have these waves pass impersonally, with your life resuming again ?

Take it with a grain of salt... What your brain gives you is not going away. Your responsibility to yourself and your loved ones is to find a way to see it for what it is and construct mental tools to manage yourself.


I love this place. For many things.

Including people and thoughts like this.
Dale
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Oct 21, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
Jingy- I just read everything you wrote, brother.

Lots of stuff caught my eye but especially this, from your last post:

I fooled myself into thinking that writing here on the topo has significance.

Hmmmm.

I consider myself more of a "sharer" and less of an "engager" on this site.

For me the really cool thing is not really knowing the significance of what I share.
It may go in one ear and out the other or it may affect someone profoundly.

A line from the Grateful Dead's "Cassidy" seems to ring true for me when I post and allows me to let go and feel no ownership or clingyness to what I write.

"Let the words be yours I am done with mine"

Be well, Jingy, and thanks for sharing. What you wrote today was significant to me.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
If you enhance or make one human being life a little better you have achieve greatness.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Oct 21, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 21, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
Great post,Bob D'A
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 21, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
drljefe -
Oct 21, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
Jingy- I just read everything you wrote, brother.

Lots of stuff caught my eye but especially this, from your last post:

I fooled myself into thinking that writing here on the topo has significance.

Hmmmm.

I consider myself more of a "sharer" and less of an "engager" on this site.

For me the really cool thing is not really knowing the significance of what I share.
It may go in one ear and out the other or it may affect someone profoundly.

A line from the Grateful Dead's "Cassidy" seems to ring true for me when I post and allows me to let go and feel no ownership or clingyness to what I write.

"Let the words be yours I am done with mine"

Be well, Jingy, and thanks for sharing. What you wrote today was significant to me.


 ok... let's step this back a bit..

Say, for instance, you read my posts today and found them to be something "anything"... Important, whatever you wish to call it... Pivotal!!!

But, tomorrow what I have written is all gone... because I have started barely a single thread that garnered any interest at all by my 'peers'...

How pivotal would my words be to anyone you told to read my words after you?
And let's back that up one step and get rid of all my pivotal writing before you had the chance to read it...? How pivotal am I then?

As for the posts, I completely understand and have to live with the situation as it is... I hold no reigns here.


Great, huh?
I no longer have to worry about any new prospective employers looking into my past posts for any evidence of my hatred of corporations and how I link their pleague to the rise of the ignorance of the republican party since the 80's....
But, now... none of my curbside wisdom is available for review...

As it was before I invented it..

No matter either way... Just like the Cuban embargo, let's not question anything because nothing can be done.

Cheers and thanks everyone for your well wishes and thoughtful words and encouragements. I appreciate that you all attempt to lend eyes to the issues I bring up. That you consider them at all I guess should be the limit of my expectations when dealing with the world today.

You help a guy feel alive and welcome, thanks.

Upended Thought Edit:
I had a thought earlier at the DMV today. I wondered if there was anything written and posted by any climber that has past-away on either of the threads that I am currently bent about losing?

Do we treat any of the posts by any of the climbers that have past away in this way. Deleting threads/posts whole cloth?



JOEY.F

Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
Oct 21, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
Bob I've always enjoyed your photographs, thanks for posting them, your threads are among the first I followed here.

Jingy,
one for you
(I don't know how to do that video post dealio, dang.)

[youtube=http://youtu.be/nyj5Be5ovas]


JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 21, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
The internet is not a good place to reveal very much about ones self.

I think it depends where and to whom. I've discovered that a lot of other climbers share my battle with depression when I posted my own story.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1133733&msg=1134943#msg1134943

I doubt that I could have engaged in the real conversations about this with other climbers had I not disclosed all the ugly details of my own struggles. There are a great many extraordinarily caring people on this site who I never would have discovered but for letting my own "secrets" out.

There are many places where I wouldn't post anything like what I did above (Facebook comes to mind, although I can't tell you exactly why). And John M., I don't know what I can do since finances are a bit of struggle for us now, but if I can help in any way, please let me know. Anyone who made the effort to come to one of our concerts deserves at least that much -- and much more in your case.

John
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 22, 2014 - 06:16pm PT
Sorry I missed it...

I saw this while searching through some of my resent posts, trying to find reason for my posting..

Jim Brennan writes:
How much more can one take ? All of it.

It's OK to be troubled and depressed about what your life has become. It's like being caught in a wave pattern sent from the ocean your brain is. Take it mathematically and physically. You are still you, even if it seems your friends have given up.

How much do friends owe you and why ? Maybe they have only so much to spend on other people and need to take care of themselves, ultimately.

How many times have you resisted the waves of guilt and anxiety, only to have these waves pass impersonally, with your life resuming again ?

Take it with a grain of salt... What your brain gives you is not going away. Your responsibility to yourself and your loved ones is to find a way to see it for what it is and construct mental tools to manage yourself.

 As I read... my situation, my life and my circumstance came to mind...

ok... so... "You are still you, even if it seems your friends have given up." I say this assumes something...

"How much do friends owe you and why ? Maybe they have only so much to spend on other people and need to take care of themselves, ultimately."

 What if the assumption being made here is that one feels that friends owe anything to the 'you' in this sentence... that's me.
What if the opposite were true...? What if you felt overwhelmingly that you owed your friends...? And amount that cannot be counted, nor paid back. What if one knew, without a doubt, that theirs would have been a life much less lived without the impressions of 'friends.

What if you've never felt you would be able to pay them back for what you feel you were given?

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Oct 22, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
Jingy, and then there is Grace. Nothing about earning or deserving or paying back, just accepting the love. Hearts, lynnie


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